:00:26. > :00:30.We will ask him why shortly T international ban on Russia's track
:00:31. > :00:34.and field athletes which presents them from going to Rio and the IOC's
:00:35. > :00:38.failure to extend that to the rest of the Russian team will have to be
:00:39. > :00:46.where we start. After all, distinguished career in
:00:47. > :00:51.sports governance, David Henry spent four years as President of sports
:00:52. > :01:14.athletics, a role he identified as being the conscience of the sport.
:01:15. > :01:21.David Henry, welcome to Extra Time. As you know, we've had a damning
:01:22. > :01:25.report which provides evidence of widespread sports doping programme
:01:26. > :01:28.overseen by the Russian state and a recommendation from the World
:01:29. > :01:30.Anti-Doping Agency that the country's competitors should be
:01:31. > :01:35.entirely banned from the Rio Olympics. We also have the IOC
:01:36. > :01:38.handing the responsibility of disciplinary action to the
:01:39. > :01:40.International Sports Federations. What do you make of this
:01:41. > :01:47.extraordinary story? It is an extraordinary story. It's quite sad
:01:48. > :01:51.that the IOC have not grasped the nettle. That's what you would have
:01:52. > :01:55.liked them to have done? I believe they should have done something in a
:01:56. > :01:59.way saying this is not acceptable, in a way some people have said it's
:02:00. > :02:02.passing the buck to go to individual sports, however you might argue that
:02:03. > :02:06.some of the individual sports are those areas that rarely, if ever,
:02:07. > :02:10.you see doping. It would have been very unfair that those sports, I
:02:11. > :02:14.suppose have gone down the route, I deeply regret them not taking a
:02:15. > :02:17.different stand. Not clear if you are equivocating here. Which side of
:02:18. > :02:21.the argument do you fall on? I think they voweled have made it a ban.
:02:22. > :02:25.Total, blanket ban? It would have been devastating for some of the
:02:26. > :02:30.athletes there. If you have many countries where individuals, they
:02:31. > :02:34.might be agents or managers or athletes or coaches, trying to break
:02:35. > :02:38.the rules by doping and they get caught, you've got many countries
:02:39. > :02:41.where this has happened. When it's state sponsored, it's different. But
:02:42. > :02:46.put yourself in the position, then of a Russian athlete, competitor in
:02:47. > :02:50.any sport, who is keen, knows he or she is clean, has never failed a
:02:51. > :02:55.test and yet you would be banned from the Rio Olympics, maybe your
:02:56. > :02:58.last chance at appearing in an Olympics because of the
:02:59. > :03:01.misdemeanours either of fellow competitors or, indeed, of the
:03:02. > :03:06.state. How would you feel about that? It would be devastating. I
:03:07. > :03:10.think I would then go at my national governing bodies or the nation it,
:03:11. > :03:15.saying this is not good enough, you've got to do something serious
:03:16. > :03:21.about it. It's, a very, very tough one. But I think at some point you
:03:22. > :03:29.have to draw a line calling on integrity. Well, IOC President,
:03:30. > :03:33.Thomas Bach is clear that he's done the right thing. "I think we've
:03:34. > :03:38.balanced on the one hand the need for personal responsibility verses
:03:39. > :03:41.the right and responsibility of each individual athlete". Has he passed
:03:42. > :03:46.the buck? He's deaf knittedly passed the buck. It's sad that they haven't
:03:47. > :03:49.stood up when it's probably the most significant challenge they've ever
:03:50. > :03:54.had. The biggest cry it ises the IOC has faced? Probably.
:03:55. > :03:59.Beyond Salt Lake City? Definitely beyond Salt Lake City. This is a
:04:00. > :04:04.national proven hundreds and hundreds of athletes doped. In the
:04:05. > :04:08.individuals can prove largely - some of them are living at university in
:04:09. > :04:12.the US - and they can prove they were tested during that time, they
:04:13. > :04:16.are going to be allowed to compete under an Olympic individual flag and
:04:17. > :04:21.I welcome that. Would that more had done that. I mean, at the heart of
:04:22. > :04:24.the issue is the question of which effectively is the bigger
:04:25. > :04:28.wrongdoing? Is it the deprivation of an Olympic place for a clean athlete
:04:29. > :04:32.or the deprivation of a medal for a clean athlete by a fellow competitor
:04:33. > :04:35.who's been doping? There are two issues here. Which for you is the
:04:36. > :04:44.greater difficulty? Moral difficulty?
:04:45. > :04:51.I think both have, you have the moral question of what is fair play,
:04:52. > :04:54.what is integrity, and what it is to cheat. Globally it should be
:04:55. > :04:58.education for young people to discuss those words. What does fair
:04:59. > :05:00.play actually mean? How does that carry into what's going on at the
:05:01. > :05:04.moment? What do the Olympics mean now, do
:05:05. > :05:08.the Olympic movement, how do you foresee the future for it now? I
:05:09. > :05:15.think it's good to raise the issue. That's the key. Is that with
:05:16. > :05:19.awareness comes a choice and you have to make responsible choices in
:05:20. > :05:23.your life. Every choice has a consequence and those that cheat and
:05:24. > :05:29.are caught are gone. I wish they were gone for longer. I just find it
:05:30. > :05:33.pretty on noxious that someone can receive a ban, do two years, come
:05:34. > :05:36.back, be banned again and still come back. Well, there are
:05:37. > :05:40.inconsistencies here as well, because any Russian athlete who's
:05:41. > :05:44.been found guilty of doping is not allowed to go to Rio. That's pretty
:05:45. > :05:52.clear from the IOC's decision making. But they are allowing, for
:05:53. > :05:55.example, someone like a competitor who's been banned twice, this
:05:56. > :06:01.American competitor to compete. Where is the consistency? It's
:06:02. > :06:05.muddled thinking isn't it? That is why the IAAF, which Seb Coe is
:06:06. > :06:08.leading, have an opportunity to change their rules. I know he wishes
:06:09. > :06:13.to move it from two years to four. If they're caught a second time
:06:14. > :06:17.they're gone. I would welcome that kind of stronger view on drugs.
:06:18. > :06:22.We're very lucky in this country that we have an out of competition
:06:23. > :06:27.testing system and you can pretty much guarantee that all the British
:06:28. > :06:33.athletes who are in Rio are not drug takers. Or cheats, whatever you want
:06:34. > :06:37.to call it. And I wish that there was sufficient money globally to
:06:38. > :06:39.have more countries have random testing.
:06:40. > :06:44.I mean, clearly there's a question of money here now. Out of
:06:45. > :06:49.competition. Yes, of course. I've raised the name of Justin Gatlin. He
:06:50. > :06:55.appeared on this programme, back, I think in 2005. Here is a quote for
:06:56. > :06:59.you, "I have to go out there", he told me. "And show people that every
:07:00. > :07:05.person who runs fast is not drugged up and every person who runs fast is
:07:06. > :07:08.not cheating." Last year we had Bolt verses Gatlin, it will happen again.
:07:09. > :07:15.What's the result you want to see? No. Good guy verses the bad guy. And
:07:16. > :07:19.we were very relieved that Bolt won last time out. He's had some injury
:07:20. > :07:24.issued, so I hope he can do it again. But if he doesn't? It
:07:25. > :07:28.tarnishes the sport. We ought to accelerate the speed in which these
:07:29. > :07:35.rule also be changed. Let me ask you about
:07:36. > :07:41.whistle-blowers, this is a live issue, 800m runner Stepanova, banned
:07:42. > :07:44.for two years for inconsistencies in her biological passport, then turned
:07:45. > :07:47.whistle-blower and has now been told she can't compete in Rio. What does
:07:48. > :07:50.that say about the future co-operation of whistle-blowers in
:07:51. > :07:54.the fight against drugs? There certainly needs to be some kind of
:07:55. > :08:01.benefit in whistleblowering. That is a slap in the face for someone who
:08:02. > :08:04.tried to do the right thing. So I don't know what sort of incentive
:08:05. > :08:10.people need to be whistle-blowers, but certainly that is a slap in the
:08:11. > :08:15.face, as you say, if they are going to ban her from the chance to
:08:16. > :08:20.compete. She'd have to prove that she was clean now, and the trouble
:08:21. > :08:22.is some of the drugs that people take will be in the system, will
:08:23. > :08:27.have changed themselves buy logically. So it's a tough one,
:08:28. > :08:31.really a tough one. That there should be some recompense for that,
:08:32. > :08:35.the willingness to blow the whistle-blower.
:08:36. > :08:39.Yes, there seems to be so many inconsistencies and mudless and in
:08:40. > :08:43.whole thing and it still has to play out as we say before fifth August.
:08:44. > :08:51.What about the role of Lord Coe as President. Relatively new President
:08:52. > :08:55.to the IAAF. He inherited obviously a whole barrow-load of problems from
:08:56. > :09:00.the Presidency before. Do you sense now that he is taking the fight
:09:01. > :09:05.forward against doping in the way that certainly the British sporting
:09:06. > :09:10.community would want? He has been criticised, after all, byed Warner,
:09:11. > :09:13.from time to time, the Chairman of UK Athletics, for perhaps not being
:09:14. > :09:18.as pro-active as he should be. I think his first response when there
:09:19. > :09:22.were accusations of the IAAF was to say, this is not true and then it
:09:23. > :09:26.was found it was true. But most people have said that he is probably
:09:27. > :09:33.the right person to be taking this forward. He's got the international
:09:34. > :09:40.experience, competitive experience, and his intention is to do something
:09:41. > :09:44.dramatic to try to combat this. So the fact that he through that sport
:09:45. > :09:48.banned the Russians is a step in the right direction. One dramatic thing
:09:49. > :09:53.that he and it seemsed Warner are agreed on, is the abolition of all
:09:54. > :09:58.previous records. Whether or not, whether or not those records could
:09:59. > :10:02.be proven to have been established by proven drugs' cheats. What do you
:10:03. > :10:05.think of that? A complete reset? Yes, that does a huge injustice to
:10:06. > :10:10.those who are clean. It's a bad idea. I think it's a bad idea. I
:10:11. > :10:15.think it's an idea that you take away all the records when you can
:10:16. > :10:19.prove someone has been, state-supported cheating, which is
:10:20. > :10:23.what happened with the East Germans. It's ridiculous we got some of those
:10:24. > :10:26.Eastern German records still on the record books. Makes a mockery of
:10:27. > :10:30.them. As you anticipate the Olympics, do you think the public
:10:31. > :10:34.will have any faith in the integrity of the sport they are watching? I
:10:35. > :10:38.hope they will have some. Maybe you have some sports more than
:10:39. > :10:40.others? Yes, indeed. It's horrible that you can watch a great
:10:41. > :10:44.performance and then just step back from it and say, I wonder, I wonder
:10:45. > :10:49.if they're clean. And you have to hope that they are. In your time?
:10:50. > :10:56.Did you ever step back and wonder? Well, I was actually told that the
:10:57. > :10:59.Americans were experimenting with anabolic steroids in their training
:11:00. > :11:03.camp before Mexico. Previously it was what we used to call the
:11:04. > :11:07.heavies. It was before they were tested for it. The Americans were
:11:08. > :11:11.quite strong in your field? They were, co-favourites, whether it did
:11:12. > :11:17.any good to them in their training camps three or four weeks before, I
:11:18. > :11:24.don't know. And the heavies were the East Germans? No, the throwers. The
:11:25. > :11:28.hammer, where the bulk helps and the anabolic steroids, for those who are
:11:29. > :11:33.bulky, bull ks them up more but enables yo u to recover faster and
:11:34. > :11:37.do more work. What did you make of all that at the time? Righteous
:11:38. > :11:43.indignation. I heard this was going on and it was like over my dead body
:11:44. > :11:46.will be you beat me by cheating. But you couldn't or wouldn't speak out?
:11:47. > :11:48.What would you say? I don't know what one would say. Who would you
:11:49. > :11:53.speak out to? Well, the authorities, I suppose.
:11:54. > :11:59.But you didn't? You chose not to, because? I was focussed on my event.
:12:00. > :12:04.It was actually in Mexico, I was told, so four weeks before we went
:12:05. > :12:09.out there to try to do a bit of acclimatisation. So let me take you
:12:10. > :12:14.back to Mexico City, 1968. A long time ago now. But nevertheless,
:12:15. > :12:18.despite the fact it was a long time ago, sport wasn't unaffected by
:12:19. > :12:29.politics at the time. Black power of course, a salute at your games. But
:12:30. > :12:31.you are a... 400m final. Can you briefly take us through, 48 second
:12:32. > :12:36.ts? Perhaps it will take 48 seconds to
:12:37. > :12:39.get through it I don't know. But a little bit of story of the race?
:12:40. > :12:44.I've never been more nervous in virtually any situation. You're
:12:45. > :12:48.trying to pour years of preparation into less than a minute. So the
:12:49. > :12:53.pressure I put on myself was far greater than anyone's expectation. I
:12:54. > :12:56.intended to win, really big difference between intended to and
:12:57. > :12:59.hoped to. You do something more about it. You had a greater
:13:00. > :13:03.intention than your fellow competitors you think? I think I had
:13:04. > :13:08.a belief that with all the work that I'd put in, the fact that I'd been a
:13:09. > :13:12.high hurdler, so technically I was proficient over the hurdles. I'd
:13:13. > :13:18.done a mammoth amount of work in the build-up to run actually faster than
:13:19. > :13:24.I had in the high hurdles, the whole 400, just per 100m it was faster.
:13:25. > :13:29.And that was then trying to pour all that into 48 seconds. You dominated
:13:30. > :13:32.the race entirely? Well, it looked like that because one of the
:13:33. > :13:39.co-favourites was just between, I was in Lane 6 and John Sherwood,
:13:40. > :13:43.another Brit, was in lane 8. Ron Witney went off slowly, he was one
:13:44. > :13:49.of the co-favourites and set an Olympic record in the heats. So that
:13:50. > :13:55.action of going off slowly meant I passed him after 125m and David
:13:56. > :14:01.Coleman went mad in saying, run up on the Olympic record on Witney,
:14:02. > :14:04.he's gambling, never done a back straight, in his commentary, he went
:14:05. > :14:11.mad. Britain was rarely getting golds.
:14:12. > :14:26.He said his eye went to the camera and saw it was a world record.
:14:27. > :14:35.Second, third and fourth tied in on the record. He went to ask him why
:14:36. > :14:44.he had won because you were nine metres clear. The only chat I had
:14:45. > :14:48.never raised was Ron Whitney. In those two seconds people had come
:14:49. > :14:51.past me on my left and I thought, I never looked right and wondered if
:14:52. > :14:59.someone had come under my arm pit and take on the medal. The Olympic
:15:00. > :15:04.win is something I treasure as a high point because of the
:15:05. > :15:10.integration of my body - spirit. Very touchy-feely. What does that
:15:11. > :15:15.mean? It is something I believe in and it has been validated by America
:15:16. > :15:22.doing research on resilience of people having lost limbs. And
:15:23. > :15:31.integration of being fit enough of doing what you need to do, someone
:15:32. > :15:37.who is not resilient, are they able to make decisions? The mind is clear
:15:38. > :15:46.and the use of visualisation and in tension and you need supporters, so
:15:47. > :15:52.be relationship. As an example of visualisation, in the buildup to the
:15:53. > :15:59.Olympic final. Tell us about that. The co- favourite took a start and I
:16:00. > :16:06.moved to the outside of the track. I saw this fellow take a stark and I
:16:07. > :16:11.was drawn to the speed of movement. I watched him a round the bend and
:16:12. > :16:19.he flew and my heart hit my throat and thought, gosh, he is a fast...
:16:20. > :16:25.It did not destroy yourself belief? A recognised it was not helpful to
:16:26. > :16:33.have negative thoughts like that and my thought was how do I best get
:16:34. > :16:39.back, where I feel fast, flowing in my stride and I am, in the buildup
:16:40. > :16:47.to this, starting 13 months before, I was running on a beach in the US
:16:48. > :16:50.and it was a flat beach, students had gone back to high school and I
:16:51. > :16:57.had a week before university started and I just had a pair of shorts on,
:16:58. > :17:06.son on my back, I started running like a racehorse, landing in water.
:17:07. > :17:12.I ran at 400 metre pace relay speed and I held it for what felt like
:17:13. > :17:20.800m and then I thought, I am going to sprint flat out and the water was
:17:21. > :17:26.splashing on my face and it was an awesome feeling. I went to the
:17:27. > :17:32.infield, four o'clock Mexico time, the Evans open, so the infield was
:17:33. > :17:38.wet and I imagine myself striding down the beach in bare feet and
:17:39. > :17:45.within 30- 40 metres of this recalling that feeling, the use of
:17:46. > :17:52.visualisation was really helpful but you need to keep it positive. You
:17:53. > :17:57.remember almost every single detail, not only of the race but the
:17:58. > :18:01.visualisation that preceded the race. You had a series of different
:18:02. > :18:08.scenarios to deal with different circumstances on the track. Plan a-
:18:09. > :18:15.plan Z. If you went to a job interview, you make be asking this
:18:16. > :18:23.and what is my best response. I visualised late starts, on scares,
:18:24. > :18:29.what is the best you can do? -- bomb scares. I raised one on one in my
:18:30. > :18:34.mind and put them just outside me and if they started to get away from
:18:35. > :18:39.me, I would go back on the blocks, if you ran to your potential could
:18:40. > :18:47.you finish ahead? If I knew that I could, I then thought, fine and that
:18:48. > :18:52.is what I did. You had to coaches, Billy Smith and Fred Houston. Billy
:18:53. > :19:00.Smith toughen you up? He was the most brilliant technical hurdle
:19:01. > :19:05.coach. He and Geoff Dyson who was in the national coach. He would explain
:19:06. > :19:14.the logistics of the movement, the legs, Hants Ab position. -- hands.
:19:15. > :19:20.Billy Smith did his master 's degree in physiology and exercise and he is
:19:21. > :19:24.also very intuitive and he read me. I said how did you come up with
:19:25. > :19:36.suggestions, and he said, I read your energy level and in my mind I
:19:37. > :19:46.have the levels. I asked what the energy level is like. If you intend
:19:47. > :19:52.to have a hard session... What is a hard session? If they call them
:19:53. > :19:56.hands and knees and sessions where you may have to lose your lunch. And
:19:57. > :20:04.you have to do that. Not every day. If you never go to the well, how are
:20:05. > :20:09.you going to do it in the final was a as an educator and coach, how much
:20:10. > :20:15.of what you have taken from your to coaches and distributed effectively
:20:16. > :20:21.to your students and the world in a number of books you have written,
:20:22. > :20:29.how much is that part of the modern sportsmen psychological build? My
:20:30. > :20:34.life in teaching, I taught in school and university. And then 25 years in
:20:35. > :20:37.management development on the skill of asking questions and listening
:20:38. > :20:46.well and the art follow-on questions. Raise awareness and
:20:47. > :20:52.responsibility. It is her responsibility, coach, manager,
:20:53. > :20:56.parent. My most drought is how to help children find the champion in
:20:57. > :21:04.themselves because that takes illustrations of what we do as
:21:05. > :21:08.adults in Khartoum form and here are some alternatives instead of having
:21:09. > :21:18.a child put up a defence. How can you ask a question that raises them
:21:19. > :21:24.to take some ownership. The legacy project you are involved in. The
:21:25. > :21:29.feelgood factor of the London Olympic and to build on that. Be the
:21:30. > :21:35.best you can be is the slogan. How receptive are youngsters to that
:21:36. > :21:39.kind of thinking? It is tremendous, when they are asked what are their
:21:40. > :21:45.dreams? It does not have to be sport. Very little rarely are they
:21:46. > :21:52.asked what they want to achieve in life. Even in the next lesson. It
:21:53. > :21:59.should be body, mind, in motion, spirit. The participation levels at
:22:00. > :22:08.the grassroots have been dropping CD to engage with these project and
:22:09. > :22:13.others like it because you believe quite clearly in a grassroot sports?
:22:14. > :22:17.Absolutely. We have to start when they are young. This is not just
:22:18. > :22:23.about sport but whatever their dreams are but, certainly, health
:22:24. > :22:30.and fitness is a vital part of the nation. What is your analysis of why
:22:31. > :22:35.participation has dropped off? I think it was at the raid. They
:22:36. > :22:44.increased from the games and then the rate has reduced. You get the
:22:45. > :22:50.Wimbledon effect was not people rush out and play tennis for a while and
:22:51. > :22:57.then they go to the gym and it has to be internalised. The benefit of
:22:58. > :23:01.doing it. So it is ingrained in their lifestyle. How do you make
:23:02. > :23:09.that a more permanent phenomenon and? Asking them questions of what
:23:10. > :23:17.I'd your plans in your health and well-being and fit is and starting
:23:18. > :23:20.them young. So that they actually want to do something to keep
:23:21. > :23:26.themselves fitter and I are real believer in personal bests. It is
:23:27. > :23:36.absolutely vital that way the person running last in the field, can you
:23:37. > :23:43.beat what you did the last time and they may be the most improved and
:23:44. > :23:47.they need to be recognised. That is the way forward to keeping people
:23:48. > :23:56.motivated. We return to the Olympics and to Rio, you anticipating them
:23:57. > :24:03.with enthusiasm or at? Enthusiasm stop I am an eternal optimist. --
:24:04. > :24:07.dread. The current dilemma the sport is seen is only good to raise the
:24:08. > :24:12.awareness and do something positive about it. David Hemery, thank you
:24:13. > :24:14.very much indeed.