:00:00. > :00:26.The 100 metres breast wreck final in Moscow four years later. How did he
:00:27. > :00:32.achieve his transformation and why did he decide to go to Moscow, given
:00:33. > :00:37.the boycott urged by the British government? And with the buildup to
:00:38. > :01:06.the Rio games, is it about the individual or the team?
:01:07. > :01:15.Duncan Goodhew, welcome to Extra Time. You are first in the Montreal
:01:16. > :01:25.Olympics in 1976 and then Moscow in 1980. The last few minutes before
:01:26. > :01:31.the race are spent in the call room. How different were your two
:01:32. > :01:34.experiences? In the first one, I had never swum for Great Britain before,
:01:35. > :01:42.except for the semifinals and finals. I got into a classroom on
:01:43. > :01:49.the side of the pool, double glazed 1-way glass. Nobody else could see
:01:50. > :01:56.in. A television monitor on either rent, you could clearly see what was
:01:57. > :02:04.going on, gold medals being won and lost. It was an intimidating
:02:05. > :02:11.experience? Yes, it was. Here I was, nobody from nowhere, standing there
:02:12. > :02:17.with seven gods of my sport. You won the heat, didn't you? Yes they did,
:02:18. > :02:25.I broke the record. I was going well. I think the problem is, as you
:02:26. > :02:30.step up to the plate at the Olympic Games, it feels strange, different.
:02:31. > :02:40.Walking into that room, I certainly felt threatened, like a lamb to the
:02:41. > :02:44.slaughter. As the doors shut, you are kind of hermetically sealed
:02:45. > :02:49.wards I suddenly didn't feel very well, there is a self talk cycle
:02:50. > :02:53.that drags you down. There is a lovely quote here, I felt like
:02:54. > :02:59.someone had pulled the plug out of the room and I had gone down the
:03:00. > :03:03.plug hole. That was it. It is quite shocking because I think as a young
:03:04. > :03:08.athlete coming through, you feel invincible. You just get to a point
:03:09. > :03:16.where you think you can do anything. What happened in the lead up to that
:03:17. > :03:23.games is, I started saying, who, me? I am vulnerable, I will spill slid
:03:24. > :03:26.down my tie. Whiny, of all the billions of people on the planet,
:03:27. > :03:31.why should I be the best in the world? Bay at two really had
:03:32. > :03:36.westerns to answer. You had the answer to those in Montreal? Not
:03:37. > :03:47.even the beginning of an answer, just a desperation to do well. You
:03:48. > :03:50.can see it with athletes, they can't cope any more with the pressure.
:03:51. > :03:56.They just slow down. That's exactly what I did. In a sense you knew you
:03:57. > :04:01.were beaten before you left the courtroom Wegelius, I was just
:04:02. > :04:06.desperate. When I hit the water, I swam a few strokes before anybody
:04:07. > :04:10.came up. By the end of the race, bolts were falling off me. I was
:04:11. > :04:18.exhausted. And yet, four years later, you knew you had effectively
:04:19. > :04:23.won the race in the call room? That is an enormous contrasts. What
:04:24. > :04:29.happened in four years to change your psychological approach? So much
:04:30. > :04:35.more is known about coaching now and you look at how the British coast
:04:36. > :04:43.deals with it... I had to find my own way at the time. My coach said,
:04:44. > :04:47.don't think so much. All I did at first was try to do it physically,
:04:48. > :04:53.lifting heavier weights, working harder than everybody else.
:04:54. > :04:58.Eventually I came out with working hardest on the worst day. If you
:04:59. > :05:02.have one minute every four years and somebody else has picked it for you,
:05:03. > :05:10.then you don't have time to have a bad day, let alone a minute or an
:05:11. > :05:14.hour while. That was the focus. I went to the World Championships in
:05:15. > :05:20.1978, two years after that first experience. I lost by just the
:05:21. > :05:25.smallest margin and got fourth place. I basically lost a whole
:05:26. > :05:32.bunch of races where I came second and third. It was by less than a
:05:33. > :05:38.second, all of them put together. At that point, why Amy had become, it
:05:39. > :05:45.could be me? I just realised it was in the head, not the body. I started
:05:46. > :05:49.not only training my hardest on my worst days, but I started
:05:50. > :05:54.visualising the race, the perfect race. I started emotion lies in what
:05:55. > :06:02.it would feel like to swim that race. Eventually the best bit I got
:06:03. > :06:07.was sitting on the side watching myself win the race. In effect, I
:06:08. > :06:12.was preparing myself for not being surprised when it happened. Actually
:06:13. > :06:23.accepting it. And then when it did happen, it was massive. There was a
:06:24. > :06:26.bit of a tautology with you in the call room, you are reading a book? I
:06:27. > :06:31.was working on different techniques, I try different things building up
:06:32. > :06:38.to a competition. Eventually I decided just to keep my own space. I
:06:39. > :06:42.walked in, you can imagine, it is very intense. Everybody is staring
:06:43. > :06:48.each other down. I tried that and it didn't work for me. I took myself
:06:49. > :06:54.off and I sat in the corner of this little box room made of glass with
:06:55. > :06:58.the seven fast as people in the world standing there. As I sat in
:06:59. > :07:04.the corner on the floor, I could see them glance at me going, what's
:07:05. > :07:10.wrong with him? Has he fallen to pieces? I took out a Wilbur Smith
:07:11. > :07:18.book and I had the good sense to check it was the right way around.
:07:19. > :07:24.And then I actually did read, it was right in the middle of a good yarn
:07:25. > :07:29.at the time. Over the top of the page I could see all of my
:07:30. > :07:33.competitors looking at me, too often. It was almost like a little
:07:34. > :07:39.comic book bubble. You could see them going... He is sitting on the
:07:40. > :07:46.floor, he's reading a book. Doesn't he know what's going on? At that
:07:47. > :07:52.point I knew that all I had to do was tie up my swimsuit and I had won
:07:53. > :07:58.the race. But even then I tried to screw it up. When I came to breed at
:07:59. > :08:07.about 25 metres from the end, I had had an injury so there was a lot
:08:08. > :08:10.going on. As libraries, the monkey on the shoulder started talking to
:08:11. > :08:16.me and said, if you don't do something right now, you are not
:08:17. > :08:22.going to win. All the training, all the preparation came through. It is
:08:23. > :08:30.something that is absolutely unbelievable. I said to myself, that
:08:31. > :08:34.is absurd. At 25 metres to go, all the training click together and I
:08:35. > :08:39.said what I needed to say to myself. And I touched the end, grabbed the
:08:40. > :08:44.blocks and I knew my life would always be different. They say when
:08:45. > :08:51.you drown, your whole life goes before your eyes. In that case, it
:08:52. > :08:56.was drowning in my own emotions. All of the people that work with me, all
:08:57. > :09:02.of my peers who had helped me as well, it was all there in that
:09:03. > :09:07.moment. As I touched the end, I thought I had held it for minutes.
:09:08. > :09:12.We watched the replay is, it is a couple of points of a second. It was
:09:13. > :09:16.almost like time had slowed down. To the medal ceremony, no union jack
:09:17. > :09:20.because the British Prime Minister at the time, Margaret Thatcher, had
:09:21. > :09:28.urged to you and fellow competitors not to go as part of a boycott of
:09:29. > :09:35.the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Did you have any misgivings? It was
:09:36. > :09:42.tough. My stepfather was an air Vice Marshal and a war hero, he told me
:09:43. > :09:48.shouldn't go. A family row? Yes, in fact, my mother went and my
:09:49. > :09:54.stepfather didn't go. It was a very difficult situation, the press were
:09:55. > :10:02.very... It was a huge story as you can imagine. Each one of us searched
:10:03. > :10:10.within ourselves as to whether or not should go. I remember sitting
:10:11. > :10:18.down with an ex- swimmer and a manager of mind. We talked about it
:10:19. > :10:26.and he said, look, if an ogre was playing a structure virus violin,
:10:27. > :10:30.which he destroyed? The Olympic Games are so special that you
:10:31. > :10:36.shouldn't destroy it because of that. I was looking around at
:10:37. > :10:48.Britain at the time, we were doing nothing else, just the athletes were
:10:49. > :10:54.being asked to boycott the games. You will appreciate certain sporting
:10:55. > :11:03.boycotts, such as South Africa, have worked? -- Stratovarius. How much of
:11:04. > :11:07.that change would have happened... What I would say on the reverse is
:11:08. > :11:12.that there were only two things being discussed with Russia at the
:11:13. > :11:16.time, which was sports results and the weather. It seemed a bad time to
:11:17. > :11:21.stop talking about sports results. When you went to rush it was obvious
:11:22. > :11:28.that it was like a cultural atom bomb going off in Moscow. The change
:11:29. > :11:37.during the time we were there was incredible. I personally would like
:11:38. > :11:41.to feel that it's better change. Yours in the presence of other
:11:42. > :11:45.athletes was the force of good. Exactly. I think if you look at
:11:46. > :11:52.depriving people, that is usually not the way to do things. It is the
:11:53. > :11:57.cultural exchange, sport is such a massive cultural exchange. The way I
:11:58. > :12:04.see the Olympics is, we all under one roof, the world is speaking the
:12:05. > :12:09.common language of sport. You can't hide behind that. Do you subscribe
:12:10. > :12:15.to the view that sport and politics don't and should never mix? It
:12:16. > :12:22.doesn't work that way. People want to use sport for social good, for
:12:23. > :12:28.social change. They want to use putting the Olympics in different
:12:29. > :12:32.cities around the world to accelerate the change around the
:12:33. > :12:38.world. You look at where the Olympics have corner of the years,
:12:39. > :12:43.places like Athens. You can't uncouple them, nor should you. I
:12:44. > :12:50.think you'd have to focus on what good comes out of it. Brings is
:12:51. > :12:53.up-to-date, and dealing with modern Russia and the doping positives
:12:54. > :12:58.which have been very much part of the rear Olympics. The world anti-
:12:59. > :13:03.doping agency delivered three key findings in their investigations
:13:04. > :13:09.with specific reference to the Winter Olympics of 2014. In summary,
:13:10. > :13:17.positive tests were either disappeared or swapped with clean
:13:18. > :13:21.ones. The whole process was conducted and overseen by Russia's
:13:22. > :13:28.Minister of sport and other key bodies. How do you react to that? It
:13:29. > :13:32.is unbelievable to me that we are seeing what happened in my
:13:33. > :13:36.generation, is all the East Germans and the Russians et cetera cheating,
:13:37. > :13:46.it seems like nothing has changed. That is really quite worrying. It is
:13:47. > :13:49.worrying for where Russia is at the moment, because you could say it is
:13:50. > :13:54.morally corrupt. You are feeding young people... In effect how long
:13:55. > :13:59.they will live, the health of their future. It might affect their
:14:00. > :14:04.children. And you look at a state-sponsored... It's moral
:14:05. > :14:14.bankruptcy, really, in terms of a nation. We have seen it in China as
:14:15. > :14:18.well. It is outrageous. The question is, what is to be done about it?
:14:19. > :14:22.There is a key philosophical question around it. The IOC
:14:23. > :14:28.president said we have to take decisions based on fact, which it
:14:29. > :14:30.seems we have now, and to find the right balance between a collective
:14:31. > :14:38.responsibility and individual justice. In the lead up to Rio,
:14:39. > :14:39.there may be more twists and turns. Where do you stand on that
:14:40. > :14:52.particular dilemma? If it is just an individual, it is
:14:53. > :14:57.very clear that either they have taken it or they haven't. The ban is
:14:58. > :15:03.not long enough it should be more Draconian in my opinion. When it
:15:04. > :15:09.comes to a state, it is more difficult. Maybe someone has not
:15:10. > :15:15.cheated so is it the individual or the state? But when you have a state
:15:16. > :15:22.like Russia, it is organised, it is state sponsored and I suspect, am
:15:23. > :15:29.starting to lean towards, you have to ban them. I suspect there will be
:15:30. > :15:35.legal ramifications for that and if I was in that position to make that
:15:36. > :15:41.decision - thank God I am not - I would be going for ramifications
:15:42. > :15:50.when we have legal claims against us. Vladimir Putin saying this is
:15:51. > :15:56.unjust and unfair. If some of your family committed a crime would it be
:15:57. > :16:02.fair to implicate the whole family, would it be fair? It is a huge
:16:03. > :16:07.dilemma and one that will rumble on for a long time. I think, when you
:16:08. > :16:15.have state-sponsored cheating, then you have to set the whole team out
:16:16. > :16:21.and say, no, it is not right, not least because how can you prove who
:16:22. > :16:24.has and who has not the cause it is all covered up in the first place so
:16:25. > :16:30.you cannot reach into the country and prove one way or the other. Part
:16:31. > :16:36.of the Russian complain is they have been singled out are flailing. There
:16:37. > :16:42.is evidence of drug cheating systematic drug cheating in other
:16:43. > :16:47.countries. You suspect there is a little bit of politics in all of
:16:48. > :16:58.this? I hope not but you can never know. Russia is a western country,
:16:59. > :17:02.it should be setting a moral tone... What do you mean by a Western
:17:03. > :17:11.country? It is a major economy in the world, part of it is in Europe
:17:12. > :17:16.and... Obviously one would expect a higher code of conduct in that
:17:17. > :17:21.country than some of the countries that are more developing and have
:17:22. > :17:31.found corruption problems. Let's bring it now closer to home. Adam
:17:32. > :17:35.peaty, a swimmer, he said, if I win Olympic goal and people look at me
:17:36. > :17:41.as a cheap it is hugely disrespectful. You do not want it
:17:42. > :17:46.for thinking you are a cheap simply because you are fast. You can
:17:47. > :17:51.sympathise with that. You have to assume everyone is innocent until
:17:52. > :17:57.proven guilty and sometimes in this world, nowadays, people have
:17:58. > :18:02.forgotten that. What I would say to Adam is, if somebody has stood take
:18:03. > :18:08.drugs or has coaches that believe you need drugs in order to beat you,
:18:09. > :18:15.then psychologically you are flawed and you have lost before you have
:18:16. > :18:23.even started. I think you can beat drugs cheats. I had it in my day,
:18:24. > :18:32.you know, East Germans and Russians... Were you deprived of the
:18:33. > :18:42.medals? Is certainly not the one I won! LAUGHTER. I do not think so.
:18:43. > :18:47.The eastern Russia and East Germans seem to have used them for the women
:18:48. > :18:53.swimmers which seemed to have been proven now. They were undetectable
:18:54. > :19:04.and they won. It is not a moral judgement. No. You know, Sharron
:19:05. > :19:10.Davies, for instance, she was really handicapped by what happened back
:19:11. > :19:15.then and, interestingly, when it was all proven that she was beaten by
:19:16. > :19:21.somebody taking drugs she said I do not want their medals because, in
:19:22. > :19:26.their case, they were given it. They did not have a choice stop one of
:19:27. > :19:32.the interesting thing as this unfolds is how much the athletes
:19:33. > :19:37.actually knew about what was going on and what they were and were not
:19:38. > :19:45.being given. Will you ever tempted to take drugs? And I do not wish it
:19:46. > :19:51.to be a disrespectful question. It was not in me. It is not something I
:19:52. > :19:56.would have ever thought about. To me, sport is such a fuel thing and
:19:57. > :20:03.you do a best time on your rain merits and that is what gave me a
:20:04. > :20:08.charge in my career. I was born dyslexic, things are not going well,
:20:09. > :20:15.it was self-improvement. It is not really self-improvement if you are
:20:16. > :20:21.taking drugs. At any championship, would you feel comfortable now about
:20:22. > :20:27.entering a race and feeling the race was clean, whether they were
:20:28. > :20:34.Russians in it or not? It is a while ago but what was really interesting
:20:35. > :20:39.is use all, with China, they came out of nowhere and started breaking
:20:40. > :20:43.world records and then they came up again and were caught a second time
:20:44. > :20:52.and disappeared. At the time we had a few drug cheats caught. Either the
:20:53. > :20:59.drugs in China and the few cheats that were caught had very much there
:21:00. > :21:06.to drugs than anybody else or else the sport was clean. Clearly we have
:21:07. > :21:10.had some drug infringements but they have been relatively small and it is
:21:11. > :21:21.shocking when you find a nation like Russia has committed, devious
:21:22. > :21:25.systematic cheating. The settling has been controversial- the ten
:21:26. > :21:30.o'clock starts and three o'clock finishing, all determined by
:21:31. > :21:36.American television, how do you feel about that? I always remember
:21:37. > :21:42.interviewing Michael Phelps when he was first coming out and he said, my
:21:43. > :21:49.goal is to make swimming as big as baseball or football. I do not know
:21:50. > :21:55.if he has done that but he managed to change the schedule where it was
:21:56. > :22:02.played on American television. It is the same for everybody. So it isn't
:22:03. > :22:07.even field. The performances themselves will not be at the
:22:08. > :22:14.Olympic standards. Fewer records. Are we going to see a substandard
:22:15. > :22:22.swimming event at the games? I doubt it. You could argue the point but
:22:23. > :22:27.what has happened in swimming across the field has really changed. We
:22:28. > :22:34.have Mel Marshall and Adam peaty, fantastic. James, and other new
:22:35. > :22:40.generations of coaches. But they seem to be springing up in different
:22:41. > :22:48.countries. Japan is doing the most extraordinary revival in swimming.
:22:49. > :22:53.It is very exciting but it may make winning gold medals more difficult.
:22:54. > :23:00.Returning to you, always destined to be a swimmer. Your father installed
:23:01. > :23:08.a swimming pool, and there was only one way to go. I was never going to
:23:09. > :23:14.win Wimbledon. Swimming has been the most fantastic sport. A good day to
:23:15. > :23:20.me is one swim a day, a great day is to swim is a day. It is something
:23:21. > :23:28.beyond something you do to compete. It is a really wonderful sport where
:23:29. > :23:35.you dive into the water and Flex the ceiling rather than crash the floor.
:23:36. > :23:45.Diving into an outdoor swimming pool with the Sun on the water, it is
:23:46. > :23:52.brilliant. I love it still so I very fortunate. You mentioned your
:23:53. > :24:00.dyslexia. It has produced an entirely different adult? Yes, it
:24:01. > :24:04.was a process of change for me. It has been just wonderful. Not only
:24:05. > :24:09.has it given me as sport but a business life where I have
:24:10. > :24:17.businesses working in sport, really breaking the mould is. It has been
:24:18. > :24:21.ever so exciting. Duncan Goodhew, it has been a pleasure talking to you.
:24:22. > :24:23.Thank you. Very nice.