:00:00. > :00:15.mounting that these days, it is cool to be cool. Now it's time for Extra
:00:16. > :00:17.Time. Extra time has come to North London today to meet Nigel Wray, the
:00:18. > :00:23.entrepreneurial chairman of Saracens. He took on Saracens just
:00:24. > :00:29.after they turned professional in 1995. He has steered the club to the
:00:30. > :00:33.very top of the English game. Also incidentally to a European cup
:00:34. > :00:36.semi`final this coming weekend against the French side Clermont
:00:37. > :00:39.Auvergne. Plenty to talk about, including European club rugby's new
:00:40. > :01:07.competition, as well as the increased wealth coming into the
:01:08. > :01:12.game via television contracts. Will Nigel Wray, welcome to this edition.
:01:13. > :01:17.He said recently that no one in their right mind would eat in this
:01:18. > :01:28.game to make a profit. So why, I have two ask you, why are you still
:01:29. > :01:33.the owner of Saracens. If someone had explained what it had cost, I
:01:34. > :01:38.would not have done it. I'm not that much of an idiot. But having done
:01:39. > :01:44.it, I wouldn't have changed a thing. You are inviting me to ask you, how
:01:45. > :01:49.much money have you put in in the time you have been here? Quite a
:01:50. > :01:56.bit. Not prepared to go further than that? No, but I've also got a hell
:01:57. > :01:59.of a lot out of this club. Not just in financial terms but in terms of
:02:00. > :02:06.learning things about life. And actually, in a weird way, making me
:02:07. > :02:10.and other people are better person. I may ask you for some examples.
:02:11. > :02:16.What do you mean by that? If you look around you, this is not because
:02:17. > :02:21.of me, but because other people have the vision. This is a fantastic
:02:22. > :02:24.community Stadium. We have kids, we have charity groups coming in every
:02:25. > :02:31.single day of the week. And that's not bad. You have brought us up to
:02:32. > :02:41.speed in terms of the profile of Saracens. I will take you back once
:02:42. > :02:46.again to the mid` 90s and ask you what attracted you to rugby in
:02:47. > :02:52.general and Saracens in particular? It was my local team. Just down the
:02:53. > :02:56.road. They came to ask me about sponsorship and I invested in the
:02:57. > :03:00.club and came forward from there. I thought the amount I had invested
:03:01. > :03:05.would be enough. It had gone within a year. So it involved a rethink.
:03:06. > :03:11.And as I have said on many occasions, I would not have got
:03:12. > :03:15.involved had I known what the cost was going to be. I doubt that anyone
:03:16. > :03:20.else would either. At having done it, I'm delighted I did it. You
:03:21. > :03:27.don't regret the decision. I regret the mistakes and stupidities, but
:03:28. > :03:31.sadly you are not allowed to go back and cancel them out. What are some
:03:32. > :03:38.of the wrong turns? We started off, in 1998 we won the Cup and almost
:03:39. > :03:45.won the league and the double. We didn't understand why. The reason
:03:46. > :03:50.why was the people we had. Not just good players, but very good quality
:03:51. > :03:55.people. And actually, we didn't get the people thing right for another
:03:56. > :04:03.ten years. Until about five or six years ago. We actually, not through
:04:04. > :04:06.me, I hasten to add, but we began to understand that you got to have
:04:07. > :04:10.outstanding people who worked together, who actually love each
:04:11. > :04:16.other. That sounds silly, but if you're playing a game like that,
:04:17. > :04:21.you've got to have good feelings for your comrades. I suppose that is a
:04:22. > :04:29.principle you brought from business into the game. Absolutely not. I
:04:30. > :04:35.think sport has much to teach business. The concentration on the
:04:36. > :04:40.whole person, not just a bit of the person. The concentration on player
:04:41. > :04:42.welfare, the whole family, mums, dads, wives, kids, looking after
:04:43. > :04:50.people generally. And people work hard. And in return, and in return
:04:51. > :04:57.we try and treat them very well. The effect that has on people, if you
:04:58. > :05:00.could take that into... I won't mention any names, if you could take
:05:01. > :05:04.that into major corporations where people don't know each other. I
:05:05. > :05:08.think the effect could be dramatic. Let's move on to the negotiations
:05:09. > :05:12.about a new European club competition. Those negotiations
:05:13. > :05:16.affectively lasted to make years. They have only just been concluded
:05:17. > :05:21.this month. The Heineken Cup has finished. Next season is the
:05:22. > :05:29.European rugby champions cup. Why is this a battle deal for rugby? ``
:05:30. > :05:36.better deal for rugby? The initial deal, fair enough. It may still be
:05:37. > :05:42.called Heineken. Rugby union started it, it is their competition, fair
:05:43. > :05:47.enough. As you would expect, it was not very club sensitive. And not
:05:48. > :05:53.because we are marvellous, but just the English and French clubs have a
:05:54. > :05:57.lot more eyeballs watching, because of the populations of their
:05:58. > :06:06.countries. So England would be 20 times Wales. Just in the stadiums?
:06:07. > :06:13.Just the population. Eyeballs to watch Sky. Not surprisingly, the
:06:14. > :06:18.split of the money was completely wrong. When people say it is not
:06:19. > :06:22.about the money, what they mean is it is about the money. So the money
:06:23. > :06:33.did matter. And the arrangement we now have wearied is a third each way
:06:34. > :06:38.is very fair. Obviously the English and French could have a lot more.
:06:39. > :06:44.You could also argue it is not really fair on the four other Six
:06:45. > :06:49.Nations clubs, beyond the English and the French. The Irish, Welsh,
:06:50. > :06:54.Scottish and so forth are only getting a little bit between them.
:06:55. > :06:59.It becomes meritocratic. You actually have to play in your way
:07:00. > :07:04.in. And as I have said, just repeating, England and France are
:07:05. > :07:07.much bigger countries. Therefore they are the market for television.
:07:08. > :07:14.Their share of revenue should be far higher, if only because they have
:07:15. > :07:20.much more of a population to spread the game over, if you want to put it
:07:21. > :07:24.like that. But look, the deal is done. It is much more democratic.
:07:25. > :07:30.Each league now has one vote. Previously the Celtic nations
:07:31. > :07:37.outvoted England and France. And I've said all along, if I was them,
:07:38. > :07:40.I would outvote them as well. We obviously didn't like that
:07:41. > :07:46.situation. Are we getting to the stage in European rugby where the
:07:47. > :07:51.clubs are getting more important and enjoying a higher profile than the
:07:52. > :07:54.national teams, would you say? No. I think rugby clubs are getting more
:07:55. > :07:58.important, but I think we all get that rugby is an international team
:07:59. > :08:03.driven game, whereas arguably football is a club team driven game.
:08:04. > :08:07.Currently moving towards the football model? A little bit, but
:08:08. > :08:14.not much. The fact is, as I found with Saracens, changing people 's
:08:15. > :08:18.culture, getting the crowd, takes decades. I didn't think it would,
:08:19. > :08:24.but it does. As you have pointed out, football cities are not...
:08:25. > :08:29.Rugby is a provincial game, as in France. I think the national side
:08:30. > :08:35.for me is absolutely huge. And firstly, if only because you must
:08:36. > :08:41.have an academy. But then you've got a produce your own players. You need
:08:42. > :08:47.people being brought up with the club who have the core values of the
:08:48. > :08:50.club, and the heart. And frankly, if those players don't want to play the
:08:51. > :08:55.their country, you probably don't want them. They have to have that
:08:56. > :09:00.sort of ambition. Who doesn't want to play fur his country? Like you,
:09:01. > :09:05.what a thrill that would have been. What we do seem to be moving
:09:06. > :09:10.towards, and I will take a quote from you, from the Guardian
:09:11. > :09:14.newspaper in January, we just are at the end of the era when the unions
:09:15. > :09:32.would tell the clubs what to do. The last Eddings of the landlord, serf
:09:33. > :09:37.relationship. `` ebbings. I don't think it is seismic. We all want a
:09:38. > :09:41.strong England. It is merely a matter of sitting down and talking,
:09:42. > :09:45.if you like, as equals. Like you would in any other business
:09:46. > :09:50.relationship. And coming to a deal which is good for everybody. That is
:09:51. > :09:55.what has happened in the European cup. It will continue to happen in
:09:56. > :09:58.the international game. Is it possible to have a deal which is
:09:59. > :10:02.equally good for the unions and the clubs? You think so? They have
:10:03. > :10:06.always been at loggerheads, over the last 20 years. There will always be
:10:07. > :10:12.an argument, because they both want to drive same car on the same
:10:13. > :10:17.afternoon. So that will go on and on. Will win over certain is there
:10:18. > :10:24.will be much more money in it in future. The salary cap was recently
:10:25. > :10:32.raised to 5 million pounds per club. What is your view? Mixed. I think it
:10:33. > :10:37.is very helpful, because as we all know, rugby union, at the club level
:10:38. > :10:41.is a massively loss`making game across the board. That said, that
:10:42. > :10:46.primary tournament, the Heineken, we are all playing with different
:10:47. > :10:52.rules. The French cap is much more. The Irish clubs don't have one. And
:10:53. > :10:55.we have a cap. We can't play by different rules. It explains why
:10:56. > :10:59.French and Irish clubs have been so successful in the Heineken Cup. I
:11:00. > :11:06.don't think an English club has one in years. You have this ambivalence.
:11:07. > :11:10.How you resolve a? At the end of the day it will be market forces. You
:11:11. > :11:15.stand in the ocean and try and stop waves coming in, but they will come
:11:16. > :11:20.in. It is a commercial game. As you know, French television revenue has
:11:21. > :11:26.just soared. So they will be even more capable of paying larger
:11:27. > :11:31.salaries, larger fees. To help the viewers, we should tell them it is
:11:32. > :11:39.?300 million over five years, that television deal. Is broadly three
:11:40. > :11:43.times ours. It means we can renegotiate in a couple of years
:11:44. > :11:47.time, and we should get a big increase over here. You have to
:11:48. > :11:53.remember that the French will always be ahead, because they are not a
:11:54. > :11:59.soccer country. That is not great news. A lot of English players will
:12:00. > :12:04.want to play in France. There could be a haemorrhaging of the top talent
:12:05. > :12:11.if they find salaries so extravagant. That is why the policy
:12:12. > :12:17.of selecting people from here is sensible and helpful. It is not
:12:18. > :12:21.quite such good news for you. What could happen is a lot of English
:12:22. > :12:24.players will follow people like Toby Flood and go and play their rugby in
:12:25. > :12:31.France where they can command higher salaries. That is where we have to
:12:32. > :12:35.compete. It is quite wrong that you stop people getting what they are
:12:36. > :12:41.worth. One of our problems here is that the more that we are successful
:12:42. > :12:44.and create England players, the more we move the bar against ourselves.
:12:45. > :13:02.That's another thing we have to resolve with the rugby union. It is
:13:03. > :13:07.money, I'm afraid. There is one issue with the salary cap. It is an
:13:08. > :13:11.injury ravaged sport. They need big squads to compete in various
:13:12. > :13:15.competitions that they take part. I will read you something from Austin
:13:16. > :13:19.Healey, the leading players will see the rising salary cap as a chance to
:13:20. > :13:23.fill their pockets. You can bet your last pound Manny Lawson that agents
:13:24. > :13:30.in the summer to negotiate another 10% on top of what they already own
:13:31. > :13:36.the idea that you will have a bigger squad won't actually happen. `` that
:13:37. > :13:42.many players will tell their agents. We already have a bomb. You don't
:13:43. > :13:46.have to be a genius to work out that if your ambition is to stay in the
:13:47. > :13:51.premiership, you need one team. If you are like a Leicester or a
:13:52. > :13:53.Saracens, you are trying to win the premiership and win the Heineken,
:13:54. > :13:56.fighting on two fronts. By definition, you need a bigger squad.
:13:57. > :14:03.There are a number of questions in need of answering. It is about
:14:04. > :14:09.money. If you have great players, it actually wrong. You have got to pay
:14:10. > :14:14.them what they are worth in a short`term career. It is one problem
:14:15. > :14:22.that needs to be resolved. Rugby union has to be involved. There will
:14:23. > :14:26.need to be more money available. If we talk about the southern
:14:27. > :14:29.hemisphere, we know that they are concerned are they, about the money
:14:30. > :14:35.available in French rugby. If you look at the quotes from the CEO of
:14:36. > :14:41.the New Zealand rugby players Association, he says the TV deal is
:14:42. > :14:44.made a threat. The Australian bass set it is scary and he can't ignore
:14:45. > :14:49.it. There are broadcast rights in the northern hemisphere. `` the
:14:50. > :14:52.Australian bass. `` says it is scary. You have to worry about the
:14:53. > :14:56.balance of power among the unions around the world. The all Blacks
:14:57. > :15:03.have a fantastic brand name. They can exploit it `` At Blacks.
:15:04. > :15:08.Australia has a bigger problem because it is the fifth sport behind
:15:09. > :15:11.cricket, Aussie rules, rugby league and maybe even football nowadays. I
:15:12. > :15:17.think their biggest problem is South Africa. South Africa is in the same
:15:18. > :15:28.time zone as we are over here. It makes sense. You play at the proper
:15:29. > :15:33.time as opposed to South Africa, who generate 60 ` 70% of what was the
:15:34. > :15:38.Tri`Nations money rights having to go off somewhere and get terrible
:15:39. > :15:44.jet lag and play at the wrong time of day. Their people are watching at
:15:45. > :15:47.breakfast time, which, as we all know, the best rates are at peak
:15:48. > :15:53.times. If South Africa played England, France, Wales, Ireland,
:15:54. > :15:57.their revenue would go up massively and that will happen. I don't know
:15:58. > :16:03.when. You can't stop progress. Let's talk about the World Cup which can
:16:04. > :16:07.you tell us about your stance is Mac as I understand it, there is a
:16:08. > :16:17.threat that you might withhold players. To be perfectly honest, we
:16:18. > :16:23.should not be put in that position to discuss that. It is wrong. Rugby
:16:24. > :16:27.union should not even get near a discussion like that. We should have
:16:28. > :16:32.a proper discussion. If anyone is working in a company or factory and
:16:33. > :16:41.they are closed down for two months, who will pay the wages? Who
:16:42. > :16:46.will pay the bill? If you have a World Cup in your country, you are
:16:47. > :16:51.not allowed to play any other rugby. We have to close down for two
:16:52. > :16:55.months. How will it be resolved? Hopefully both parties will be
:16:56. > :16:59.responsible. The fact that the factories, if you can call them
:17:00. > :17:04.that, " two months, to enable a bigger factory to take place, just
:17:05. > :17:08.work it out. It's not difficult. I have quoted, if you have a gun and
:17:09. > :17:15.you are not prepared to fire it, you have not got a gun. That's right. I
:17:16. > :17:20.think that was more about leaving the room in the case of the European
:17:21. > :17:24.negotiations. White it is still about taking a position and carrying
:17:25. > :17:31.out that. In this case, I hope the rugby union, I am sure they do have,
:17:32. > :17:36.the sense to not push like that. Frankly, we want a fantastically
:17:37. > :17:40.successful World Cup. Of course. Are you prepared to withdraw your threat
:17:41. > :17:45.was yellow I have never made a threat. I have said, if you have a
:17:46. > :17:50.gun and you are not prepared to fire it, that you haven't got a gun. That
:17:51. > :17:57.is a general observation. I wouldn't ever make that threat. It would be
:17:58. > :18:01.an empty threat, wouldn't it? You would be depriving players of
:18:02. > :18:06.international honours and your relationship would break down with I
:18:07. > :18:14.think it is an interesting discussion. We are trying to create
:18:15. > :18:20.layers to play for England. We need players who want to play for their
:18:21. > :18:24.country `` players. To take the opposite view... What we do need is
:18:25. > :18:31.for the other side, rugby union, to not take advantage of that fact.
:18:32. > :18:36.That would be unfair. They I think they will. You have an exciting
:18:37. > :18:42.fixture coming up against the French, Clermont over them. I think
:18:43. > :18:46.I am right in saying that you have been into Heineken Cup semifinals
:18:47. > :18:53.before. This is the big one, isn't it? It is. Hopefully it is going to
:18:54. > :18:59.be one of a succession of big ones. That is the whole object. To play
:19:00. > :19:04.big games. I am always amazed that that is exactly what the players
:19:05. > :19:09.want, they want to play at the highest possible level. You find
:19:10. > :19:18.that amazing? I do. I look at myself and think, I would be frightened out
:19:19. > :19:23.of my wits to play at that sort of level in that sort of tension. I
:19:24. > :19:26.admire them for it. I find it amazing... This is
:19:27. > :19:33.across`the`board. Are you a man in the dressing room? Never. I go to
:19:34. > :19:37.the dressing room always after a game to shake people 's hand and
:19:38. > :19:44.said, win or lose, well done. I think they like that and that is
:19:45. > :19:48.what I do. There you are in the semi`final against Clermont, for
:19:49. > :19:52.players this is about Glory and earning a winning bonus, but for you
:19:53. > :19:58.it is a personal milestone in your development as a club. Yes it is. I
:19:59. > :20:03.don't think it is about bonuses for the players. Not while they are on
:20:04. > :20:12.the pitch. They just want to give their for the club, it is a huge
:20:13. > :20:17.step forward. Given we fell at the semi`final fence twice last year. We
:20:18. > :20:22.are a work in progress. It doesn't end there. I think life and sporting
:20:23. > :20:27.life certainly is a mountain without a top, you are constantly climbing
:20:28. > :20:32.and that is that. We shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. But if this is
:20:33. > :20:37.and is widely Heineken Cup, it is tempting to ask you whether there
:20:38. > :20:42.would be anything else for you to achieve here. You talk about the
:20:43. > :20:46.mountain without a top. But, he would be at the top of a
:20:47. > :20:52.particularly personal mountain, wouldn't you? Maybe it will be time
:20:53. > :20:57.for you to say you have done all you can and move on. I think the moment
:20:58. > :21:00.you fly too close to the sun, you get your wings burned and you come
:21:01. > :21:03.crashing down. That is it will be time for you to say you have done
:21:04. > :21:06.all you can and move on. I think the moment you fly too close to the sun,
:21:07. > :21:09.you get your wings burned and you come crashing down. That is Icarus.
:21:10. > :21:11.Yes. At the moment, you think you are marvellous because you have won
:21:12. > :21:13.something. But you are finished. What would be the motivation to
:21:14. > :21:16.continue? To create a Saracens club that we will all be incredibly proud
:21:17. > :21:20.of because of what it has achieved and what it continues to achieve.
:21:21. > :21:25.Otherwise, it would be like saying of a company, we have created a
:21:26. > :21:29.wonderful company, next year it goes bust, no, you have to create things
:21:30. > :21:36.that endure and go on. That is what it is all about. One final question.
:21:37. > :21:39.If it came to a choice between Saracens winning the Heineken Cup
:21:40. > :21:45.this season and England winning the World Cup next season, where would
:21:46. > :21:50.your preference like? Heineken. It is one of those things. When
:21:51. > :21:57.something is that immediate and close to your heart, that is where
:21:58. > :22:01.you go. I know the families, I know the people, owner the spectators. I
:22:02. > :22:09.know it sounds Hackney, but we are one big family and in England
:22:10. > :22:11.obviously, it is hugely important. It is not your little family,
:22:12. > :22:41.however. Nigel Wray, thank you very much for the interview. Thank you.
:22:42. > :22:42.Thursday, for most of us should be a fairly decent