0:00:00 > 0:00:04Now on BBC News, it's time for Extra Time.
0:00:11 > 0:00:18Welcome. Following the recent death of Sir Roger Bannister, we thought
0:00:18 > 0:00:22you might like to seek for a second time a special interview he gave the
0:00:22 > 0:00:26programme in May 2000 and four. It was recorder on the 50th anniversary
0:00:26 > 0:00:31of the day when he became the first man to run a sub four-minute mile.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35We met on the same track in Oxford where this historic achievement took
0:00:35 > 0:00:44place. Welcome to the special edition of extra time.Just like
0:00:44 > 0:00:491954. High winds, cold.You just need a bit more rain. It really is
0:00:49 > 0:00:55very similar?Absolutely. It is England, early May. Equinoctial
0:00:55 > 0:01:03upsets in weather. A really stupid time to try to break a record. But
0:01:03 > 0:01:10there we are. John Landy was on the way to Finland.This was your great
0:01:10 > 0:01:22rival.The American confidence, he was called the Kansas cowboy, and he
0:01:22 > 0:01:29said, I'm going to do it.You beat him to it, and you beat John Landy.
0:01:29 > 0:01:35Before we talk specifically about that day here, 50 years ago, but the
0:01:35 > 0:01:40four-minute mile into a context for me. It was described by Landy is a
0:01:40 > 0:01:43concrete wall, something that was impossible to do.Like a cement
0:01:43 > 0:01:52wall. He had done 4.2 on six occasions. Only 15 yards. We just
0:01:52 > 0:01:56didn't seem to be able to get through that. He was talking about
0:01:56 > 0:02:03it being a physical barrier, but I couldn't see that. Four minutes two,
0:02:03 > 0:02:08under the conditions, it pace judgement, you can break four
0:02:08 > 0:02:13minutes. It was a psychological barrier.But it was a barrier that
0:02:13 > 0:02:16galvanised not only the British public, but athletics fans around
0:02:16 > 0:02:20the world.They had been talking about it for almost 100 years. Pas
0:02:20 > 0:02:30voters did for point ten. Everything was moving in that direction. It was
0:02:30 > 0:02:35clear that somebody was going to do it. Well, the Swedes did four
0:02:35 > 0:02:43minutes 1.4. They were not involved in the war. 1953... 1943.They
0:02:43 > 0:02:49flip-flopped six times.They had the crucial ingredient to break records,
0:02:49 > 0:02:56which was several of them, all of comparable calibre.It was the era
0:02:56 > 0:03:00of trying to recognise achievement. That the point.I think so. Britain
0:03:00 > 0:03:07wasn't dead of the country, and I did try to do it in 1953. I thought
0:03:07 > 0:03:12that would be rather nice. The pace judgement was not fast enough. The
0:03:12 > 0:03:18three quarters was 3.05, and you cannot do the last lap. It all had
0:03:18 > 0:03:24to wait then until everything was ready for May 19 54.And it came to
0:03:24 > 0:03:29it in a sense of a very disappointing Olympics in 1952.That
0:03:29 > 0:03:37is why I did it, why I went on. I had, my innocence, planned to win
0:03:37 > 0:03:44the Olympic gold medal in Helsinki, 1500 metres, and my medical studies
0:03:44 > 0:03:49were getting more and more demanding and so I had planned to retire at
0:03:49 > 0:03:56the end of story. I did so badly, everyone was so disappointed, the
0:03:56 > 0:03:59press said, you should have done this and that, if only you had
0:03:59 > 0:04:03listened to us, you would have won it. The chances of winning an
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Olympic title are always against you. John Landy didn't win in
0:04:06 > 0:04:14Melbourne, Ron Delany came through. I suppose that is why spot -- sport
0:04:14 > 0:04:21is fascinating.So you hatched a plan.Yes, we had run together for
0:04:21 > 0:04:28years and the secret was to do the three quarters mile within three
0:04:28 > 0:04:36minutes flat, and training to be a steeplechaser, he didn't have the
0:04:36 > 0:04:44speed to go further than half a mile and the first lap, I got a bit
0:04:44 > 0:04:49impatient and I shouted, faster, faster!We're going to fast already?
0:04:49 > 0:04:54I want to hear about the plans... The plan was very simple. It
0:04:54 > 0:04:58couldn't have been simpler. Chris Brasher would run a mile and
0:04:58 > 0:05:02Kristian away with takeover and he would go on as long as he could and
0:05:02 > 0:05:07then I would take over.It is all about pacing. As far as the
0:05:07 > 0:05:10preparation was concerned, on the day, when you look at how
0:05:10 > 0:05:14professional athletes themselves ready now for major championships,
0:05:14 > 0:05:18with all due respect, your preparations were pretty...Ltd. I
0:05:18 > 0:05:25went to the medical school. I didn't feel like doing much work -- Ltd. A
0:05:25 > 0:05:33sharpened up my spikes. We ran on very loose -- primitive. I think
0:05:33 > 0:05:39they think the cinders were about... Iran about four seconds slobber.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43Rubbed a little graphite on the spikes. So they would come in and
0:05:43 > 0:05:49out neatly without collecting cinder and ash.This is your medical school
0:05:49 > 0:05:55in London, wasn't it?Yes. And then got a train, and as it happened,
0:05:55 > 0:06:05when I was going, the coach to Crisp ratio and then to Chris chat away
0:06:05 > 0:06:12and then I joined the trio, and... You bumped into him on the train?
0:06:12 > 0:06:18Yes. I said, I reckoned at that time it wasn't worth attempting, as even
0:06:18 > 0:06:23if I'd exhorted myself in the impossible weather and done or .1,
0:06:23 > 0:06:28everyone would be disappointed and, oh, he has failed.Are you saying
0:06:28 > 0:06:32this was the one and only opportunity?It was the first
0:06:32 > 0:06:36opportunity that year, and John Landy had just arrived in Finland.
0:06:36 > 0:06:43He had finished the Australian summer, our winter, and the Finns
0:06:43 > 0:06:48had said, you know, they knew he was looking at the door, and they said
0:06:48 > 0:06:53come to Finland, they give you the pasting you need, and there were
0:06:53 > 0:06:59perfect tracks and the Finns were also absolutely obsessed almost with
0:06:59 > 0:07:08running, so it had to be done very quickly, and that was why one would
0:07:08 > 0:07:15normally think of trying to break a record on a windy, wet, cold English
0:07:15 > 0:07:19May Day.So you're right at Oxford station with your coach, then you
0:07:19 > 0:07:23went and had lunch with a friend... The people I have stayed with when I
0:07:23 > 0:07:31was earlier studying here, I had left Oxford, and I had lunch with
0:07:31 > 0:07:37the children and just tried to allow my mind... The waiting is one of the
0:07:37 > 0:07:44worst parts of athletics.Perhaps any sport.Participation in
0:07:44 > 0:07:48anticipation, fear. And you value will never go through this again.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52You say absolutely it isn't worth this agony. And then the thought
0:07:52 > 0:07:57was, well, will I get another chance? Will Landy do it first?
0:07:57 > 0:08:02Would you forgive yourself if you missed this possible opportunity?
0:08:02 > 0:08:07And eventually, I reckon about half an hour before I was looking at a
0:08:07 > 0:08:13flag on that church steeple, which the flat was broken, but it will be
0:08:13 > 0:08:19here on the sixth. I used that as a wind gauge.And what was telling
0:08:19 > 0:08:24you?It was telling me about half an hour before, that things were
0:08:24 > 0:08:28beginning to slacken and get a bit less windy. So I thought, well,
0:08:28 > 0:08:37let's do it. I hope the wind stays down, you know, a gentle five
0:08:37 > 0:08:42minutes, and then Chris Brasher did a false start, which was a waste of
0:08:42 > 0:08:48time.You must have been serious then.Well, he is not usual to make
0:08:48 > 0:08:55false starts in the mile. So then Brasher leads off... He leads off
0:08:55 > 0:09:00and I think he's going to slowly because I suppose I have had a rest
0:09:00 > 0:09:07for several days from running, and so I shout, faster, faster, and he
0:09:07 > 0:09:14takes no notice whatsoever. He said, well, I thought I was probably doing
0:09:14 > 0:09:18it at the right speed, and he said, I couldn't go any faster anyway. So
0:09:18 > 0:09:26he does a good first lap, 58, you run the first 15 yards faster, you
0:09:26 > 0:09:31sprint until you get a good position.The Times were called out.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Everybody could hear the time. The new settled down to what is a
0:09:35 > 0:09:40four-minute mile pace, as closely as you can, 60 seconds, and they did
0:09:40 > 0:09:44the next lap in 60 seconds, so it was a 1.5 8/2 mile.You knew you
0:09:44 > 0:09:50were on course at that time.We were absolutely on course. He felt we
0:09:50 > 0:09:55were slowing and I think, I said, you know, whatever I did say to him,
0:09:55 > 0:10:02Chris, come up, Chris chat away. And then he took over. It is inevitable
0:10:02 > 0:10:08that the third lap slows, you know, it just happens in pretty well all
0:10:08 > 0:10:14races. And Chris took me through the three quarters mile in three minutes
0:10:14 > 0:10:22point five. So we had slowed at the last lap was, the third lap was 62,
0:10:22 > 0:10:29and so I had to do the last lap in 59 and I was really trying to decide
0:10:29 > 0:10:37what moment to overtake him. Because it was a help, while he was the head
0:10:37 > 0:10:43and gave the right speed, and if I had overtaken him on the next two
0:10:43 > 0:10:49last bend, I would have had to have run wide and that would have been a
0:10:49 > 0:10:54bit of total extra distance and I didn't want to run more than 1760
0:10:54 > 0:11:01yards. So I waited until he was really just coming into the straight
0:11:01 > 0:11:04and I could overtake him without running any extra distance.And then
0:11:04 > 0:11:12I had to... The last 100 yards or so.The whole of the last corner,
0:11:12 > 0:11:17bend, and the finishing straight, I just didn't know whether my legs
0:11:17 > 0:11:23were getting slower, although my brain was telling them to very much
0:11:23 > 0:11:29keep going.We are about ten yards or so now from the line.We are near
0:11:29 > 0:11:35the line now.As you reach this point, what were you feeling is that
0:11:35 > 0:11:42moment? You are about to...Well, my feelings were that I was so close,
0:11:42 > 0:11:47that I couldn't really believe I'd failed, other stopwatches held the
0:11:47 > 0:11:56answer and I had to wait, I couldn't move everyone around, and your blood
0:11:56 > 0:11:59pressure falls because of blood vessels are rolled violated and
0:11:59 > 0:12:09collapsed. I think about the time I was recovering, I heard them making
0:12:09 > 0:12:12the great announcement, which he said he had rehearsed in the bath
0:12:12 > 0:12:16the night before.You know what it was. Well, it was that he started
0:12:16 > 0:12:19with three minutes, and that nobody else heard anything...1200 people
0:12:19 > 0:12:23there... It was and that he started with three minutes, it was the
0:12:23 > 0:12:29preamble, you know, everybody was waiting, and he said the result is
0:12:29 > 0:12:38number 41... Banister of Exeter and Merton College in a time which,
0:12:38 > 0:12:44subject to ratification, will be track record, English record,
0:12:44 > 0:12:50English native record, British allcomers record, European record,
0:12:50 > 0:12:56world record and then three.That was it. In the immediate aftermath.
0:12:56 > 0:13:02The sense of achievement, your parents were here as well, won't
0:13:02 > 0:13:07they?I didn't ask them. They were brought without my knowledge. No, I
0:13:07 > 0:13:13suppose that we went off to London, the BBC's sportsnight had just been
0:13:13 > 0:13:20started and so I was on that, and we went off and had dinner, friends,
0:13:20 > 0:13:25partners, and we thought, well, we might as well wait and see what the
0:13:25 > 0:13:29newspaper said. So we went into a nightclub until about two will clock
0:13:29 > 0:13:33in the morning and we thought, well, it does seem to be causing quite a
0:13:33 > 0:13:37kerfuffle.You had some cabaret in the nightclub, is that right?I
0:13:37 > 0:13:43don't think I did. They said I sung something, but it is inconceivable,
0:13:43 > 0:13:47impossible.We left using time on your hands on a nightclub on the
0:13:47 > 0:13:50following day.You have claimed that, but I could not possibly
0:13:50 > 0:13:54comment.You certainly celebrated the achievement. You had about two
0:13:54 > 0:13:58hours sleep as I understand it that night. The following day, busy
0:13:58 > 0:14:04again, in London, at Oxford, back to London, and the press by now were...
0:14:04 > 0:14:12The three of us did have a bit of time together and we climbed Harrow
0:14:12 > 0:14:17Hill, not much of a hill, and we look doubt that evening over London,
0:14:17 > 0:14:23because he could see the lights, and I remember a conversation with them,
0:14:23 > 0:14:27they may not remember it, but what should we do now? And of course, we
0:14:27 > 0:14:33won't just thinking about athletics. Which of course, was coming to an
0:14:33 > 0:14:39end in one way or another, the others went on longer, but what you
0:14:39 > 0:14:42do? And for me, it was straightforward.I would go on and
0:14:42 > 0:14:47do medicine. Let me take you forward six weeks to mid June and Finland,
0:14:47 > 0:14:56and Tokyo and -- Landi breaks record.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Are new here would do it, it was questionable whether we get it here
0:15:00 > 0:15:05before he did because we had shown that he was physically capable,
0:15:05 > 0:15:10probably stronger I was and he just needed to have a decent pace in the
0:15:10 > 0:15:18early part of the race.He shattered it really, took it down the. -- took
0:15:18 > 0:15:23down the.Yes, that is 12 or whatever.
0:15:23 > 0:15:24down the.Yes, that is 12 or whatever.
0:15:24 > 0:15:24down the.Yes, that is 12 or whatever.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27down the.Yes, that is 12 or whatever. As far as that was
0:15:27 > 0:15:30whatever. As far as that was concerned, your contacts with Landy
0:15:30 > 0:15:34were not especially frequent, but he sent congratulations after your
0:15:34 > 0:15:39record and he sent him.You just wonder whether there might not have
0:15:39 > 0:15:44been some kind of professional jealousy.I was much more friendly
0:15:44 > 0:15:50with him and actually got to know him after the race in Vancouver. I
0:15:50 > 0:15:55think before you race against a major opponent, jealousy is not the
0:15:55 > 0:16:03word, it's just you are a bit circumspect. You are supposed to be
0:16:03 > 0:16:13racing against them. They are, in a metaphorical sense, the enemy. But
0:16:13 > 0:16:16afterwards it didn't matter at all and we have kept in touch, we see
0:16:16 > 0:16:24one another every year and he is now Governor of Victoria and on his way
0:16:24 > 0:16:29to England now.You have mentioned Vancouver, why do we go there now?
0:16:29 > 0:16:37This was another six weeks, it was the Empire games and you arrived
0:16:37 > 0:16:42some two weeks before the final and you met Landy as soon as you arrived
0:16:42 > 0:16:46and it then didn't see him again until the race.No, we were not
0:16:46 > 0:16:50seeking each other out but we really happened to coincide in our
0:16:50 > 0:16:54training. I did most of my training away from the track, he did those of
0:16:54 > 0:17:01his on the track.Leaving secretive? Well no, I ran on grass because by
0:17:01 > 0:17:05then I could work as hard as I would on the track and it was so much
0:17:05 > 0:17:10easier and less strain on the muscles, so I didn't regard track
0:17:10 > 0:17:15running. This was clearly a big deal. It was more important than the
0:17:15 > 0:17:20Formula 1 and this is the race I was aiming at.And not just because it
0:17:20 > 0:17:23was the centrepiece of the Empire games but in the end because
0:17:23 > 0:17:30athletics is about eating and not setting records.Yes, and if Landy
0:17:30 > 0:17:35had beaten me, I don't think the four minute mile would have
0:17:35 > 0:17:40mattered, he would have been the best.Talk us through that.It was a
0:17:40 > 0:17:49very hot day, quite different from the day in May. Conditions were good
0:17:49 > 0:17:59and Landy ran off immediately.Like a train.And I thought he is too
0:17:59 > 0:18:03fast, he will either break the world record by five seconds or he will
0:18:03 > 0:18:07slow down, in which case I will have the advantage of. I decided that as
0:18:07 > 0:18:15the early part of the race was so fast, instead of starting a sprint
0:18:15 > 0:18:19at 200 or something, I had to leave it late and that was the moment when
0:18:19 > 0:18:25I put the first in the.That was the strength of your game, a strong
0:18:25 > 0:18:32finish. As you crossed the line, I ask you in a sense to recapture the
0:18:32 > 0:18:39moment, this was bigger than the four-minute mile.That was the first
0:18:39 > 0:18:43time that two people had done at. I would say the feeling was really,
0:18:43 > 0:18:51relief. It could have gone badly and in a sense it rather made up for
0:18:51 > 0:18:58failure in Helsinki and I only got one more race to go before retiring
0:18:58 > 0:19:03and that race was the European race and I think by then I was feeling
0:19:03 > 0:19:08fairly confident that I could handle that one. Release, you know, career
0:19:08 > 0:19:18over and as I said in the diary as I wrote, FINIS.Let me conclude by
0:19:18 > 0:19:24asking you a personal question. What is your philosophy of running?I put
0:19:24 > 0:19:29it in the new edition of the book which I put 50 years ago, which I
0:19:29 > 0:19:31didn't expect to return to.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Saying that they were something about my description of my early
0:19:37 > 0:19:44life which sort of rather inspire them try to do things. The way I had
0:19:44 > 0:19:50put it, I reflected on rereading this book, that however ordinary
0:19:50 > 0:19:54each of us may seem, we are all in somewhere special and can do that
0:19:54 > 0:19:58are extraordinary,
0:19:58 > 0:20:00somewhere special and can do that are extraordinary,. And when the
0:20:00 > 0:20:05broad sweep of life is viewed, sport, instinctive and physical,
0:20:05 > 0:20:12illustrates a universal truth that most of us find effort and struggled
0:20:12 > 0:20:15deeply satisfying, harnessing and almost primaeval instinct to fight
0:20:15 > 0:20:19and to survive. I think that is what I would say, but I don't believe
0:20:19 > 0:20:29that running was really more than a metaphor for other struggles and
0:20:29 > 0:20:34everybody is trying to balloon to the Atlantic and died 400 feet,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38everybody has a was wanted to do this and it is fine if you don't
0:20:38 > 0:20:42risk your life doing it and you don't risk other people 's lives
0:20:42 > 0:20:47trying to, when you haven't done it. You have talked and written also
0:20:47 > 0:20:53that the freedom that running gives you.Yes. Freedom of choice. When I
0:20:53 > 0:20:56was chairman of the sports Council I believed that every person, nearly
0:20:56 > 0:21:03everybody, had some kind of psychological link which made them
0:21:03 > 0:21:11attuned to a certain activity, seem more solitary, climbing mountains,
0:21:11 > 0:21:19playing cricket. This range should be explored by the young because at
0:21:19 > 0:21:23the age of 13, 14, you don't know what you are going to be best at.
0:21:23 > 0:21:29Your body shape can change. I believe that if they trying --a
0:21:29 > 0:21:32choice of activities were wide enough, you find something
0:21:32 > 0:21:36irresistible and get involved at about five years later he probably
0:21:36 > 0:21:41achieve quite a lot of success and you find you have grown up, you have
0:21:41 > 0:21:45learned a lot. That is what I would like to give as a message.Thank you
0:21:45 > 0:21:53very much for joining us on this addition of Extra Time.