:00:17. > :00:23.On tonight's Late Kick Off, a tough defender tackling his biggest
:00:23. > :00:28.challenge... Life after football. There was a point when I was really
:00:28. > :00:37.low. I could not find a way out. Marvin's mission. Top scorer Emnes
:00:37. > :00:40.aiming for the big time with Boro. It is enough to play in the
:00:40. > :00:45.championship. And I would like to try something else.
:00:45. > :00:49.Plus reaction from a bad-tempered Derby.
:00:49. > :00:54.Welcome to another Late Kick Off. No Danny Mills tonight. But Micky
:00:54. > :00:58.Gray is back. And the day after the Tyne-Wear Derby, we are joined by a
:00:58. > :01:08.man who is black and white through and through. Apart from a couple of
:01:08. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :01:30.I think I am delighted to welcome the former Newcastle and Sunderland
:01:30. > :01:35.midfielder Lee Clark. But maybe not after that little dance at the
:01:35. > :01:40.start. We will talk about the Derby match in a minute. You have to help
:01:40. > :01:43.me with something. Settle an argument. Mickey came to see you
:01:43. > :01:48.last season down at Huddersfield. Did a little bit of training while
:01:48. > :01:54.he was filming. He thinks he is fit as a lapdog. I think he has gone to
:01:54. > :01:58.seed, Lee. Come on, who is right? knew and played alongside him. I
:01:58. > :02:02.knew him in his heyday. Off air, he kept pestering me, give us a yell.
:02:02. > :02:06.I think he has shown a bit too much time on the golf course since he
:02:06. > :02:11.has stopped playing. Your actual words on the day were, he used to
:02:11. > :02:16.be more supple. Is that a subtle way of saying his legs have gone?
:02:16. > :02:19.That is the nice way, I think. think you are absolutely right.
:02:19. > :02:23.The biggest crowd at any sporting event in Britain this weekend was
:02:23. > :02:25.at yesterday's Tyne-Wear Derby. Nicholas Bendtner put the visitors
:02:25. > :02:28.ahead, before the scourge of Sunderland, Shola Ameboi, grabbed
:02:28. > :02:31.an injury-time equaliser for Newcastle. You can catch the
:02:31. > :02:40.highlights on Match Of The Day 2, which will be on the iPlayer from
:02:40. > :02:44.Wednesday. Here is some reaction to a bad-tempered 1-1 draw.
:02:44. > :02:48.I was a little bit disappointed with us first half. We got wrapped
:02:48. > :02:52.up in what seemed to be a game plan by Sunderland to unsettle us. Put
:02:52. > :02:58.the attack in. Lee Cattermole set the scene for the game. I thought
:02:58. > :03:02.it was ugly, if I am honest. Outstanding in the first half.
:03:02. > :03:07.Having said this, we had a great chance in the second half to make
:03:07. > :03:12.it 2-0. That would have been a long way back for Newcastle at that time.
:03:12. > :03:15.One or two Newcastle players were quite lucky, especially. One of
:03:16. > :03:22.their midfielders, I don't know how he managed to stay on the pitch for
:03:22. > :03:25.the full 90 minutes. There was a lot of pressure on us
:03:25. > :03:32.getting a result. The manager obviously understood that at half-
:03:32. > :03:37.time. He mentioned that. He asked us to go out there and give
:03:37. > :03:42.everything we had. It was strong, passionate,
:03:42. > :03:49.vitriolic. It was all the things that you expect from a Derby of
:03:49. > :03:54.this nature. In actual fact, during the course of the game, I was
:03:54. > :03:58.actually enjoying it. We had words on the side. You know,
:03:58. > :04:02.he is passionate for his team. I am passionate about my team. And it
:04:02. > :04:06.spills over. It will not be carried on. We are two experienced
:04:06. > :04:10.professionals. It will be dead and buried tonight as far as I am
:04:10. > :04:15.concerned. By the way, Newcastle and
:04:15. > :04:18.Sunderland fans, Shirt of Hurt is once again part of Sport Relief. If
:04:18. > :04:24.you can stomach running a mile in the opposition's kit to raise money
:04:24. > :04:28.for charity, then go to the BBC Sport Relief website. Lee, I think
:04:28. > :04:35.we will stay clear of you and shirt swaps. For the purposes of this
:04:36. > :04:39.programme, we will talk about the match. Eight yellows, two reds.
:04:39. > :04:44.Ugly kick fest or maybe an example of a brilliantly passionate Derby?
:04:44. > :04:47.I think that is harsh. I think that some players got some silly yellow
:04:47. > :04:53.cards. Today's climate as well. With the challenges, you can
:04:53. > :04:56.warrant yellow cards. You can only do certain things. But I have to
:04:56. > :04:59.say, overall, there is no fan from either club that can be
:04:59. > :05:04.disappointed with the commitment or passion of character of any player
:05:04. > :05:07.on that pitch. The one marked during the game, obsessing on the
:05:07. > :05:13.yellow card. That could have cost his team getting something from the
:05:13. > :05:18.game. It could have cost something from the game. But it will cost in
:05:18. > :05:21.terms of the three-match ban he has got. We will have a look at how it
:05:22. > :05:31.fits into the UK derbies in terms of, well, let us be honest,
:05:32. > :05:33.
:05:33. > :05:36.What is going through the players, Micky? What are you feeling as you
:05:36. > :05:41.are out there? It must be impossible to isolate yourself from
:05:41. > :05:45.the frenzy that is coming from the terraces. It is like Lee was saying.
:05:45. > :05:49.When you go out on the pitch, you are playing in a big Derby game. It
:05:49. > :05:53.is very fiery. Lee Cattermole set the standard straight away in the
:05:53. > :05:58.first 40 seconds. And it was very fiery right throughout the game.
:05:58. > :06:01.But a great game as well. Over the last four or five derbies, I do not
:06:01. > :06:05.think Sunderland have really competed. They certainly did on
:06:05. > :06:08.Sunday. It was a real good game. And we saw people coming together
:06:08. > :06:13.off the pitch. There was the Sunderland fitness coach and the
:06:13. > :06:17.Newcastle goalkeeper. And the two managers had that square up. Are we
:06:17. > :06:21.supposed to condemn this or do we quite like this? Is this all part
:06:22. > :06:26.of it? Because the cameras move in and the fans go crazy. We are
:06:26. > :06:29.talking about them now. We are talking about the players and then
:06:29. > :06:32.we are talking about two unbelievably experienced managers.
:06:32. > :06:37.They have worked at the highest level for a long time. The passion
:06:37. > :06:40.was running through them. I think that is great. In terms of the
:06:40. > :06:43.people employing them and the supporters from their clubs seeing
:06:43. > :06:51.that. These lads are not from the area, but they have shown their
:06:51. > :06:54.hearts on their sleeve. They are ready to win for their club. I
:06:54. > :06:58.think that both, over the course of after the game and press releases,
:06:58. > :07:08.had said that they were maybe a bit over-zealous. And apologies for
:07:08. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:12.that. But that is what the games do to you. It is about winning. I said
:07:12. > :07:16.before the game when I was talking about it. It is not about
:07:16. > :07:21.performances, it is about getting the result. And Martin O'Neill left
:07:21. > :07:24.without, I think he got straight on the coach. We were speaking off air.
:07:24. > :07:30.Lee, just before, about going into managers dressing rooms at the end
:07:30. > :07:34.of the game for a drink. It is etiquette. Yes. I think quite a lot
:07:35. > :07:38.of people do it. But it is not something that happens every week.
:07:38. > :07:42.When you go to certain grounds, you may not see eye to eye with the
:07:42. > :07:46.manager. I think Lee has had a couple of spats himself with
:07:46. > :07:53.managers. Maybe the last thing you want to do is go and be in the
:07:53. > :07:56.manager's dressing room at the end of the game. I get it. I understand.
:07:56. > :07:59.If you have anything to say about the Derby or anything else that
:07:59. > :08:04.takes your fancy, you can tweet and we are also on Facebook. The e-mail
:08:04. > :08:09.address is clem@bbc.co.uk. And do not forget, Late Kick Off is on the
:08:09. > :08:12.iPlayer all week. Still to come... The weekend's Football League
:08:12. > :08:16.action. And marvellous Marvin, Boro's Dutch diamond, on finding
:08:16. > :08:19.his feet at Boro. In recent years, football has made
:08:19. > :08:23.huge strides in areas such as physical conditioning, diet and
:08:23. > :08:25.nutrition. But this season, mental health has become a major concern.
:08:25. > :08:30.A number of footballers have admitted to suffering from
:08:30. > :08:33.depression. For many, it is caused by coming to terms with life after
:08:33. > :08:35.their playing days are over. And from personal experience, former
:08:35. > :08:41.Newcastle defender, Steve Howey, understands why it is such a
:08:41. > :08:48.problem. In an exclusive interview, he has been speaking to Katie
:08:48. > :08:54.Gornall. One day when you wake up, you just
:08:54. > :09:00.think, what is the point of getting out of bed? There was a point when
:09:00. > :09:05.I was really low. I could not find a way out.
:09:05. > :09:09.The boy from Sunderland who became a legend in Newcastle.
:09:09. > :09:13.The camaraderie that we had with the lads then. The way that we
:09:13. > :09:18.played football. The ideas of how to win games. It was just
:09:18. > :09:21.absolutely fantastic. I don't think, at that time, you get to grasp how
:09:21. > :09:24.good a time it was. He was the defensive rock behind Kevin
:09:24. > :09:28.Keegan's entertainers. An England international who later played for
:09:28. > :09:32.Manchester City, Leicester and Bolton.
:09:32. > :09:36.So how much of a struggle was it, when you had had those highs at
:09:36. > :09:41.Newcastle United, to adapt to life after football? It is a huge shock
:09:41. > :09:44.coming out of football. I think you do not realise how much you are
:09:44. > :09:49.going to miss it. Because you are with the boys every day, you have
:09:49. > :09:56.the huge highs of match days. And the huge lows of defeat as well.
:09:56. > :10:00.But nothing prepares you at all for finishing football. I think,
:10:00. > :10:06.initially, you have time on your own and you decide to play golf.
:10:06. > :10:11.And you do that for a period of time. Eventually, it sinks in where
:10:11. > :10:14.it does not give you the satisfaction that you feel you need.
:10:14. > :10:21.You are used to that high and everything you could possibly want
:10:21. > :10:28.to make you happy. Nothing then can supersede that. So you tend to find,
:10:28. > :10:37.where you feel not part of it any more. Disjointed. And not really
:10:37. > :10:40.contributing the way you thought that you were at the past.
:10:40. > :10:49.All the sudden, you find yourself getting into the routine of getting
:10:49. > :10:56.into bad habits. I think, personally, it is very easy of
:10:56. > :11:00.getting into that mould of bad habits. It is so hard to get out of.
:11:00. > :11:03.Before you realise it, you are thinking, what have I done here for
:11:03. > :11:08.the last amount of weeks and months? I have done absolutely
:11:08. > :11:14.nothing. I have not done anything which has contributed to the family
:11:14. > :11:20.or contributed to my self-worth. Before you know it, you are in a
:11:20. > :11:25.spot. You are looking at yourself and just thinking, this is going to
:11:25. > :11:31.go two ways here. You are looking at something where, talk to
:11:31. > :11:36.somebody, get some help. Or there is the other route. And we all know
:11:36. > :11:42.what that one is. Thankfully, I did have people around us sort of
:11:42. > :11:48.wanting us to get better. It is up to you then. You have to make the
:11:48. > :11:51.choice. I was lucky enough with the infrastructure I had around me
:11:51. > :11:59.helped me after I had got to the point where I said, enough is
:12:00. > :12:06.enough. I need help. And I think that is... In some ways, that for
:12:06. > :12:13.me is the best decision and best choice I have ever made.
:12:13. > :12:20.Steve's life is back on track. I have kids that I absolutely adore.
:12:20. > :12:25.And, for me, it was all about them. As well as, it was all about my
:12:25. > :12:27.parents as well. I did not want them to have to suffer any more.
:12:27. > :12:32.Now, personally and professionally, everything is going really, really
:12:32. > :12:42.well. I have a great job. I have a great personal life now and things
:12:42. > :12:47.are going from strength to strength. We have heard recently from Dean
:12:47. > :12:51.Windass. He has been speaking very openly about the struggles he has
:12:51. > :12:55.had with depression. What was your reaction when you heard about how a
:12:55. > :13:00.friend had been going through that? I have supported him since. And he
:13:00. > :13:07.is very low. He has also realised that he does need some help.
:13:07. > :13:08.Thankfully, he is going to get that. After the death last year of Gary
:13:08. > :13:13.Speed, the Professional Footballers' Association sent a
:13:13. > :13:16.guide book to 50,000 ex-footballers with advice on mental health.
:13:16. > :13:21.Personally, I think that, in football, which is still very much
:13:21. > :13:25.an alpha male sport. These are young guys who are trained to the
:13:25. > :13:29.absolute peak of physical perfection. They are expected to
:13:29. > :13:33.perform all the time absolutely brilliantly and to show no cracks.
:13:33. > :13:35.When those cracks or injuries are on the inside, or if they are
:13:35. > :13:40.distressed emotionally or psychologically, it is not really
:13:40. > :13:43.okay for them to express that a lot of the time. I think, when players
:13:43. > :13:49.stop playing, there is just a huge void. Come mid-thirties, late
:13:49. > :13:54.thirties, that is it. Game over. I guess nothing else can give players
:13:54. > :14:01.the buzz that actually playing the game for real can give. And I think
:14:01. > :14:04.that Steve's case is probably very common. I think we need to step up
:14:04. > :14:14.some sort of action plan where we have something for players in
:14:14. > :14:18.
:14:18. > :14:21.football, as well as out of Has it shock due to hear him
:14:22. > :14:26.talking like that and is a typical of a lot of people at his age that
:14:26. > :14:35.had come out of the game? shocked me hugely to see that
:14:35. > :14:41.footage because I grew up with him. And he was a great lad, full of
:14:42. > :14:46.life, a very, very good player. I have grown up with him and it was a
:14:46. > :14:51.huge shock to the system, are seeing that. But is a typical, are
:14:51. > :15:01.there lots out there? I would imagine, if they haven't anything
:15:01. > :15:01.
:15:01. > :15:10.else to do. I was the manager when Dean's story broke so I was close
:15:10. > :15:14.to that situation as well from the other side. Looking at Steve's
:15:14. > :15:18.situation, Withdean having to do with the implications of his family
:15:18. > :15:24.because I have was the manager of his football club where his son is
:15:24. > :15:27.learning his trade. It must take at change of mind said Shirley,
:15:27. > :15:31.because footballers liars obviously reached a peak in their early
:15:31. > :15:39.thirties and then start to go down. How on earth do you replace that
:15:39. > :15:44.bars, that camaraderie, that constant contact with team-mates
:15:44. > :15:50.that you are seeing a close and personal all the time? You're
:15:50. > :15:55.having such an laugh and that gets taken away. Nobody prepares you for
:15:55. > :16:00.that. Then what you behind you is a strong family, it is so important.
:16:00. > :16:04.I know Steve very well and it is shocking to see that, the way he is.
:16:04. > :16:08.Now I think he is coming out the other side and is doing ever so
:16:08. > :16:16.well but there are players out there who need to make that call.
:16:16. > :16:21.We have had these high profile cases like the German keeper and
:16:21. > :16:26.Dale Roberts and it has put a lot of focus on it. Would it not be
:16:26. > :16:31.seen with players who are still actively as something that could be
:16:31. > :16:36.exploited. Maybe the days of banter are gone but if it sneaked out,
:16:36. > :16:41.then the opposition players have got a stick to beat you with, is it
:16:41. > :16:45.a taboo subject? We can't let it be that situation because we have to
:16:45. > :16:51.do with that here and now. We got to prepare the players for it.
:16:51. > :16:59.Ultimately you cannot play on for ever and it is not the man in the
:17:00. > :17:08.street who retires when he is 65. For footballers, it is 34. We got
:17:08. > :17:16.to get them to do with it and educate them. I know everyone is
:17:16. > :17:22.trying different schemes to educate players to go into college or do
:17:22. > :17:27.journalism. It is tough because are you in the coaching game or the
:17:28. > :17:31.management game? There are only so many jobs. The there are lots of
:17:31. > :17:37.people very well qualified to be a coach or manager and haven't had a
:17:37. > :17:40.job for a long time. It has been a revelation as to why so many of you
:17:40. > :17:45.go into management and some people stick to really tough jobs. If
:17:45. > :17:53.somebody had come to you, a team- mate and said, I like this, how
:17:53. > :17:59.would you have dealt with it? wouldn't have come to me! When you
:17:59. > :18:03.see these players, for them to come out and the first person to go and
:18:03. > :18:09.see is the merger and said, I need to speak to somebody. I don't think
:18:09. > :18:11.it would come from another player. Again, the P F A B need to do
:18:12. > :18:18.something about it when the players are still playing and give them the
:18:18. > :18:23.opportunity to make the call. you struggle? No, I think I was
:18:23. > :18:30.pretty fortunate. I was doing radio and this kind of stuff and I really
:18:30. > :18:34.enjoyed that. So this is an acceptable alternative? It is the
:18:34. > :18:44.days you're not doing anything, it must be very tough and some days
:18:44. > :18:46.
:18:46. > :18:56.you do find it hard but you just got to keep smiling. You suddenly
:18:56. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:03.find yourself in this position, are suddenly, from 24/7 well? I have
:19:03. > :19:07.come through it now. We saw each other a couple of weeks ago and it
:19:07. > :19:10.wasn't the best period for us but now I am focused on the next
:19:10. > :19:18.chapter and the next position I take. I'm energised and ready for
:19:19. > :19:26.it but as you say, to go from 24/7 to nothing, I'm just asking
:19:26. > :19:29.somebody to ring me up to me to my phone keeps ringing go. I am going
:19:29. > :19:35.to treat your phone number of people will be ringing you all the
:19:35. > :19:39.time! The first of all this is that three days after you get the sack,
:19:39. > :19:45.you get nominated the Football League's managerial achievement of
:19:45. > :19:55.the Year award for 43 regular league games without defeat. You
:19:55. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :19:59.don't need to say anything, I think I have said her it all. Holland
:19:59. > :20:02.beat England at Wembley last week and there's a young Dutchman who
:20:02. > :20:04.has been enjoying himself on these shores all season. Marvin Emnes is
:20:04. > :20:08.Middlesbrough's top scorer. His goal at Portsmouth on Saturday
:20:08. > :20:10.taking his tally to 15. But at one point, it looked like he had no
:20:10. > :20:20.future at the Riverside when former manager Gordon Strachan didn't even
:20:20. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:31.give him a squad number. He was a real talent, a real
:20:31. > :20:34.
:20:34. > :20:44.special talent. You were born in Rotterdam, quite a tough city, what
:20:44. > :20:44.
:20:44. > :20:54.do you early years like? It is OK if you were from their good it is
:20:54. > :21:09.
:21:09. > :21:13.dangerous and if you get yourself The manager who signed you was
:21:13. > :21:18.Gareth Southgate, was there anything about him that impressed
:21:18. > :21:25.you that made you think, this is the right guy to play for? Before I
:21:25. > :21:32.signed, I had a chat with Gareth circuit. He told me a little bit
:21:32. > :21:42.about Middlesbrough go go and how things were going on here. I had a
:21:42. > :21:42.
:21:43. > :21:47.good feeling about it. I thought I would give it a try. Gareth
:21:47. > :21:53.Southgate loses his job and you have a new manager in the shape of
:21:53. > :21:57.Gordon Strachan. Is it fair to say it didn't work out? No, it didn't
:21:57. > :22:04.work out at all. A different manager, different rules and
:22:04. > :22:08.different things. It was a hard time for me again because I was not
:22:08. > :22:18.involved in his squad. There were always things going on in your head
:22:18. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:49.You went to Swansea on loan and it just took off there, you had a
:22:49. > :22:59.great time? Swansea is a great club. The manager is great and the
:22:59. > :23:00.
:23:00. > :23:07.players are great so I had a good feeling again. It didn't last too
:23:07. > :23:15.long, you spell at Swansea. You had a new manager at Mott Middlesbrough
:23:15. > :23:25.and he was keen to get you back? Yes, I heard I had to come back and
:23:25. > :23:28.
:23:28. > :23:38.I thought, I am going to try out again. An emotionally attached
:23:38. > :23:46.
:23:46. > :23:55.player, he needs to be feeling good. We are coming up to that stage of
:23:55. > :24:05.the season where the table is starting to take ship, where can
:24:05. > :24:06.
:24:06. > :24:16.this team go? The Premier League. If we keep winning games, obviously
:24:16. > :24:16.
:24:16. > :24:25.there is a chance for us to go up. Go that's what we want to do. It is
:24:25. > :24:30.time to go up a flower and play for something else.
:24:30. > :24:37.Tell me this, how can one manager, Gordon Strachan, not a route that
:24:37. > :24:42.player at all, though not include him at all and the next manager
:24:42. > :24:48.comes in and puts him at the central plank of his team. It makes
:24:49. > :24:53.no sense. As long is not a personal opinion, he is just making an
:24:53. > :24:58.opinion about the player and what he does on the pitch. Tony said
:24:58. > :25:04.that he is an emotional guy and a confident guy so you have to treat
:25:04. > :25:12.him... This is the management game now. It is about treating the
:25:12. > :25:17.individual. He found the net at the weekend. Points that could mean
:25:17. > :25:23.nothing if a Portsmouth goes bust. Their record would be expunged and
:25:23. > :25:29.The Championship tucked into chaos. Just when they seem to be her topic
:25:29. > :25:35.of the Pearce, back they come again with a victory. Still a tough place
:25:35. > :25:39.to go to. It certainly is. I have had a couple of beatings there
:25:39. > :25:43.myself as a player. He is a good player and a really do like him. He
:25:43. > :25:47.is very direct, he gets goals and it was a good result for
:25:47. > :25:51.Middlesbrough at the weekend. They are getting themselves back up
:25:51. > :25:57.there. He has to really nice feet on him and he knows whether back of
:25:57. > :26:01.the lettuce. The only thing that might be concerning his the
:26:01. > :26:07.disciplinary record, a 6 Yellow Red cards and four in the last six
:26:07. > :26:13.games. Something they will have to watch. They don't have the biggest
:26:13. > :26:18.squad in the world as well. Coalisland Hartlepool also both in
:26:18. > :26:23.action. I'm assuming that you feel at the top five in League One is
:26:23. > :26:27.taken care of but to do either of these two stand a possibility of
:26:27. > :26:33.making it into the play-offs? think they do, I think can have a
:26:33. > :26:43.very good chance. What they have to do is get more When's away from
:26:43. > :26:52.home. A have not lost at home since 10th September. The they got a
:26:52. > :26:59.chance. Hartlepool are on a run as well. Why are Caroline so bad away,
:26:59. > :27:04.what is in their mind set? I'm not too sure, to be honest. This will
:27:04. > :27:10.play the same game are planned as at home. I have seen them on
:27:10. > :27:14.numerous occasions and they're very good and they have option in the
:27:14. > :27:17.diamond and they do it very well. I think Greg will be looking to get a
:27:17. > :27:27.few more winds away from home, will keep the home form going and there
:27:27. > :27:27.
:27:27. > :27:34.were other good chance. Not bad when you are up against MK Dons who
:27:34. > :27:38.are right up there. A very good performance. I saw a few headers at
:27:38. > :27:41.the weekend. A good performance from them and they're starting to
:27:41. > :27:45.climb up that League again where they wear at the beginning of the
:27:45. > :27:54.season. They could be in with a chance if you are there or
:27:54. > :28:00.thereabouts. Was your assessment? Yes, a strong side. We went up
:28:00. > :28:05.there and got as 0-0 draw. They were tough to beat at home but they
:28:05. > :28:14.have got to get winds as well. But they need to have around but they
:28:14. > :28:21.have some tough fixtures. Have you had any little Smith's have
:28:21. > :28:28.anything? Not too much, obviously go they have had our advisers and
:28:28. > :28:33.people talk to them. They get the right job and we will go and do it.
:28:33. > :28:37.Good will obviously pick up a little bit, there will be staff
:28:38. > :28:41.that will come up but we knew we to the summer? I don't know, for me it