0:00:27 > 0:00:33Hello and welcome to Match of the Day to extra on BBC Two, five Live,
0:00:33 > 0:00:38the BBC sport website, app and on the iPlayer. Joining the art,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42Arsenal and England defender Martin Keown, former Manchester City
0:00:42 > 0:00:44defender and Carlisle manager Keith Curle and Chief sports writer of the
0:00:44 > 0:00:51Daily Mirror Andy Dunne. You can get in touch across social media and
0:00:51 > 0:00:57text us as well. These are the subjects we will be discussing the
0:00:57 > 0:01:01next 45 minutes, obviously the scenes at the London Stadium with
0:01:01 > 0:01:06pitch invasions and fans protesting as West Ham lost 3-0 at home to
0:01:06 > 0:01:11Burnley. We will talk about I'm Every Woman beating Liverpool with
0:01:11 > 0:01:14two goals from Marcus Rashford. Mauricio Pellegrino questioned the
0:01:14 > 0:01:17spirit of south London after they lost at Newcastle and they are just
0:01:17 > 0:01:21a point above the relegation zone and we will have the team news from
0:01:21 > 0:01:24the Emirates as well from the first game with Arsenal at home to
0:01:24 > 0:01:31Watford. The back pages dominated by events at West Ham, Anarchy is the
0:01:31 > 0:01:37headline in the Sunday Mirror. The Mail on Sunday has hammers day of
0:01:37 > 0:01:45shame. They say games to be played behind closed doors.
0:01:46 > 0:01:52behind closed doors. -- could be played. We will hear from Mark Noble
0:01:52 > 0:01:58shortly but what are your views on what happened?With what happened
0:01:58 > 0:02:03yesterday, what was sad about it in a way, was that it was predictable.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07If we have heard one word about the atmosphere at the London Stadium it
0:02:07 > 0:02:13has been toxic, that is the word we keep hearing. I think it is the
0:02:13 > 0:02:17culmination of a combination of things that has led to this which
0:02:17 > 0:02:24had its roots, whatever the owners say, in the stadium move. However
0:02:24 > 0:02:29they dress it up it was a piece of commercial opportunism. Bit of.
0:02:29 > 0:02:35Fine, you go to the stadium and it's not a football stadium -- that's
0:02:35 > 0:02:42fine. To overcome those things and get over those things and put those
0:02:42 > 0:02:45to the back of the minds of supporters you need a winning team
0:02:45 > 0:02:50that is exciting and challenging in the top half of the league and they
0:02:50 > 0:02:55don't have that. Throw in the fact, and I am sure this is only a minor
0:02:55 > 0:03:00part in the week they announced they made a profit of £43 million, and it
0:03:00 > 0:03:05is a cocktail of things that leads to the unrest. As to what happened,
0:03:05 > 0:03:10there are logistical things that need addressing the stewarding, the
0:03:10 > 0:03:14FA will look into it, it is alarming how easily they got onto the pitch
0:03:14 > 0:03:18and how they could surround the directors box, all of these things
0:03:18 > 0:03:22need to be addressed. Going back to it, it has been brewing for a long
0:03:22 > 0:03:27time.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30time.On the football perspective, teeth, they were 1-0 down when the
0:03:30 > 0:03:36first pitch invasions
0:03:36 > 0:03:38first pitch invasions happened -- Keith. Before we come back to the
0:03:38 > 0:03:44club as a whole, can you put part of the blame of the defeat on the pitch
0:03:44 > 0:03:49invasions and everybody losing concentration?I think it is about
0:03:49 > 0:03:54distractions, what is going on in the stadium, if it affects you as a
0:03:54 > 0:03:57player and manager and coach and it will, especially with the pitch
0:03:57 > 0:04:07invasion. Can it get used as an excuse? I don't think so. As a
0:04:07 > 0:04:11manager, distractions go on every day in football and you have to keep
0:04:11 > 0:04:18your focus. I think David Moyes, he said for periods within the game he
0:04:18 > 0:04:23was pleased with their performance. But obviously conceding three goals,
0:04:23 > 0:04:25he will not be happy and the distractions are difficult.Would
0:04:25 > 0:04:28you have been worried for your personal safety if you had been on
0:04:28 > 0:04:36that pitch as a player?No, it was not enough...It only takes one.It
0:04:36 > 0:04:40does and I can understand Mark Noble reacting the way he did but I would
0:04:40 > 0:04:45say this to West Ham fans, when you went there as a player, Upton Park
0:04:45 > 0:04:49was very different, but they were the 12th man. That dislike of the
0:04:49 > 0:04:52opposition, it is now being pumped to their own club and it's a
0:04:52 > 0:04:56disaster waiting to happen. It does not reflect very well on the Premier
0:04:56 > 0:04:59League how they are able to get such easy access to the pitch, that is
0:04:59 > 0:05:03ridiculous and they should be in a lot of trouble for that in this day
0:05:03 > 0:05:06and age, it's not right they can do that. It's not the best place to
0:05:06 > 0:05:10watch football, we know that, but this is turning the gun on
0:05:10 > 0:05:15themselves. The team is trying to play in that toxic atmosphere and
0:05:15 > 0:05:19they capitulated. It had to be the fans that affected them on the day.
0:05:19 > 0:05:24But if you are so dissatisfied as groups of fans, and that all sorts
0:05:24 > 0:05:26of different groups of fans in this protest as well, but if you're
0:05:26 > 0:05:31dissatisfied as a group, with the ownership, the way the club is run,
0:05:31 > 0:05:38with what has happened, then moving and everything else, is it worth, to
0:05:38 > 0:05:42use your phrase turning the gun on yourself, to try to get a different
0:05:42 > 0:05:45ownership?They feel it is but it could end up with them being
0:05:45 > 0:05:49relegated. All of the other teams down there will have the support,
0:05:49 > 0:05:54generally people are behind you. Stay in the Premier League, sort out
0:05:54 > 0:05:58the problems, I think David Moyes is done a good job to be honest, until
0:05:58 > 0:06:01recently when it has gone bad for him. But let them play and get on
0:06:01 > 0:06:05with it and be united. They are divided at the moment.They brought
0:06:05 > 0:06:11in David Moyes to stay in the Premier League and he has a proven
0:06:11 > 0:06:15record, nine years in the top ten at Everton. A proven Premier League
0:06:15 > 0:06:18manager. They're giving him a short contract and I don't think that has
0:06:18 > 0:06:22helped. If he wants to attract players in the transfer windows and
0:06:22 > 0:06:29things like that, big-money signings aren't going to come to a club that
0:06:29 > 0:06:34has a manager in place for six months.This is the point, the
0:06:34 > 0:06:38stadium move to be sold to fans because they did not want to move.
0:06:38 > 0:06:43You have to sell it to them as it's not just this great opportunity that
0:06:43 > 0:06:47we can't turn down to move into a massive stadium for what amounts to
0:06:47 > 0:06:53a peppercorn rent, you had to sell it to them. The way it was sold to
0:06:53 > 0:06:58them was that the move would facilitate a team that was not in a
0:06:58 > 0:07:01survival battle and would go to the next level and be able to attract
0:07:01 > 0:07:03the big players. And it happened, they could not even keep Dimitri
0:07:03 > 0:07:10Payet will stop it is symptomatic. You're not attracting top players or
0:07:10 > 0:07:14they're not going for them and are not spending that amount of money.
0:07:14 > 0:07:21If the fans feel they have been sold that idea, that this is what the
0:07:21 > 0:07:26move will do, moving to the next level, they are now West Ham London
0:07:26 > 0:07:30as it is in the badge, bigger and better.The playing side is so very
0:07:30 > 0:07:36different to now, it is so intense at Upton Park and the football was
0:07:36 > 0:07:41so quick. They had a good season in the last one and did well but the
0:07:41 > 0:07:45transition to the new home, it's not their home, it doesn't feel like it.
0:07:45 > 0:07:50There is so much space. They can lose by a lot of goals when it goes
0:07:50 > 0:07:53wrong for them and it seems the wheels come off. They have not bound
0:07:53 > 0:07:59a way to play the right football on that pitch -- found a way.From the
0:07:59 > 0:08:03perspective of the fans, it is not just the experience of watching the
0:08:03 > 0:08:07game in the stadium, it is everything else that builds up to
0:08:07 > 0:08:12watching it. It is going to the pub you always go to, the cafe, walking
0:08:12 > 0:08:18down the same roads, and if you walk to a game at the London Stadium, it
0:08:18 > 0:08:21is the most soulless experience you could possibly have. I said last
0:08:21 > 0:08:26week I loved going to West Ham, when I'd said that I meant I used to love
0:08:26 > 0:08:30going to Upton Park because the buzz was amazing but it is soulless going
0:08:30 > 0:08:35to the London Stadium.We played at Upton Park, and the experience as a
0:08:35 > 0:08:40player started going through the roads on the coach. It was an
0:08:40 > 0:08:46intimidating place to go to and the crowd were that close.You could
0:08:46 > 0:08:48smell the pie and mash and see the guys in the pubs.There is no
0:08:48 > 0:08:52getting away from the fact that a winning team would mask a lot of
0:08:52 > 0:08:58problems, you might complain that much if the teams were turning big
0:08:58 > 0:09:02teams over. The walk back through the shopping centre would not be too
0:09:02 > 0:09:09bad, you might pop into a popular retail store! That would mask a lot
0:09:09 > 0:09:15but I understand what you're saying. It is almost a lesson that other
0:09:15 > 0:09:20clubs could look at. The automatic thing is that we must move stadiums,
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Everton are in this situation. I think it slightly different, I don't
0:09:23 > 0:09:29know if Everton fans see that, Goodison Park, with the same
0:09:29 > 0:09:33affection that West Ham fans saw Upton Park, maybe they do. But they
0:09:33 > 0:09:37have to be very careful of what you're moving to.John says West Ham
0:09:37 > 0:09:40fans should be embarrassed about behaviour, it is appalling, many
0:09:40 > 0:09:46teams have gone through worse times and I hope they go down. James says
0:09:46 > 0:09:49that for people to call our fans a disgrace they don't understand the
0:09:49 > 0:09:51context of what has been happening at West Ham, it has been building a
0:09:51 > 0:09:54long time to the light from the board the lack of investment and
0:09:54 > 0:10:01planning in the team, the traditions of what was a family event club have
0:10:01 > 0:10:04been taken away, today we have reached the limit. This was Mark
0:10:04 > 0:10:10Noble.The atmosphere was horrible. Obviously we had fans running on the
0:10:10 > 0:10:15pitch. To be honest, we know a lot of it isn't aimed at the players. It
0:10:15 > 0:10:22is other reasons. But we have to be men enough to be able to play in
0:10:22 > 0:10:26that atmosphere. It's hard, don't get me wrong, especially when you've
0:10:26 > 0:10:31got 50, 60,000 hip and a big percentage of them are not happy
0:10:31 > 0:10:38with how the club is -- 60,000 here. The players take the brunt of it.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Listen, they are true, honest, passionate bunch of people, I know
0:10:42 > 0:10:47that, I've played in front of them for 15 years. I'm hoping to date
0:10:47 > 0:10:53that they've had that outburst, hopefully, because all that matters
0:10:53 > 0:10:57really is staying in the Premier League for us.There are all sorts
0:10:57 > 0:11:01of things you feel the need managing at West Ham, one of them is the
0:11:01 > 0:11:06relationship between fans and the club and that is no different to any
0:11:06 > 0:11:11manager or club in any community. Definitely.But the manager and
0:11:11 > 0:11:16players have to play a part.When I first went to Carlisle at a manager
0:11:16 > 0:11:22there were banners everywhere, board of the board, they wanted new
0:11:22 > 0:11:26investment, but I was made aware of that with the owners and the
0:11:26 > 0:11:31chairman in the interviews -- bored of the board. I had to communicate
0:11:31 > 0:11:35to the supporters and get the message and the focus from the
0:11:35 > 0:11:39directors box onto the pitch. We were in a relegation fight on the
0:11:39 > 0:11:43back end of a relegation. Everybody's talking about the owners
0:11:43 > 0:11:49after the games and investment. I did a lot of work in the local
0:11:49 > 0:11:54media, getting the focus back on to the football.Was it a long process?
0:11:54 > 0:11:59We won the first three games, and after that people were walking away
0:11:59 > 0:12:04from Brunton Park talking about surviving. But we lost the next
0:12:04 > 0:12:10couple and there is soon a bit of unrest and negativity and people are
0:12:10 > 0:12:15talking again about the ownership and that they were letting me down.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19My job as the manager was to go out and say no, the football department
0:12:19 > 0:12:23will take care of results. I had to make sure I did not get involved in
0:12:23 > 0:12:27politics because that was ongoing and they are still ongoing in some
0:12:27 > 0:12:33departments. But it is about communicating. The stakeholders, the
0:12:33 > 0:12:35owners, the manager communicating with the supporters and not getting
0:12:35 > 0:12:41involved too much in the politics. And by the way, Rangers have just
0:12:41 > 0:12:48gone 2-1 up in the Old Firm. That is at Ibrox, almost half an hour gone.
0:12:48 > 0:12:55The communication at West Ham is a problem as well.It is, it could be,
0:12:55 > 0:13:00it can be a positive or negative. If you are getting a running commentary
0:13:00 > 0:13:03from your owners, like you do on social media...And their family
0:13:03 > 0:13:12members.Do you commend them for saying, it is good that supporters
0:13:12 > 0:13:18can have that direct interaction with the owners? If you are at
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Manchester United or Chelsea or whatever, you don't have Roman
0:13:20 > 0:13:30Abramovich tweeting. And some fans will like it. But when it's going
0:13:30 > 0:13:34wrong and David Sullivan says, I think it was in the case of Slaven
0:13:34 > 0:13:43Bilic, I offered him Renato Sanches and Krychowiak, it's a bit much
0:13:43 > 0:13:48information.There is no at times. And what type of players and by --
0:13:48 > 0:13:54there is no decorum at times. But if it goes well they will be held up as
0:13:54 > 0:14:02owners communicating with France. Their next home game is against
0:14:02 > 0:14:06Southampton.And Manchester United they play as well. They have to get
0:14:06 > 0:14:09together at the club, communication is important. These supporters have
0:14:09 > 0:14:13to get behind them and put the energy behind the team.The message
0:14:13 > 0:14:17has to come out the club, this year is about survival and they that by
0:14:17 > 0:14:23getting results. With supporters coming on the pitch, no matter what
0:14:23 > 0:14:31happens, that cannot happen.The irony of the situation will be, with
0:14:31 > 0:14:36fans chanting to sack the board, who does that? The board can't sack
0:14:36 > 0:14:40themselves.The interesting thing on that, we had this discussion a
0:14:40 > 0:14:46couple of times, like when people say to sack the manager, you don't
0:14:46 > 0:14:49then go, who do you want to come in? That is even harder when you're
0:14:49 > 0:14:57looking at ownership competitive managers.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00managers.Presumably the chain of events would be that Sullivan and
0:15:00 > 0:15:04gold get so fed up that they put the club up for sale but the irony of
0:15:04 > 0:15:07that, assuming they stay in the Premier League, they would end up
0:15:07 > 0:15:12making an awful lot of money. If they sold the club. If they said
0:15:12 > 0:15:16we've had enough. I am not sure the fans would be too bothered, if the
0:15:16 > 0:15:20majority want them out but that would be the irony, that moving into
0:15:20 > 0:15:22this stadium going forward the club is worth more money than it was.
0:15:22 > 0:15:30Should they stay away from the home games, the owners?
0:15:30 > 0:15:35We had it with my chairman at Carlisle and a couple of the owners,
0:15:35 > 0:15:40it went a bit low profile but the chairman was 81 years old, a
0:15:40 > 0:15:44chairman for 57 years and seen the good times and badges. He comes to
0:15:44 > 0:15:47every single home game and away game and he travels miles. His and
0:15:47 > 0:15:54passion for the club is unquestionable. And you get a small
0:15:54 > 0:15:58minority of people turning around, shouting, sack the board! He is a
0:15:58 > 0:16:01brave man because he will turn up because of his principles and what
0:16:01 > 0:16:07he wants for the club and sometimes you go through transitional periods
0:16:07 > 0:16:10where you have to stick together as a football club. He doesn't ever
0:16:10 > 0:16:16push me out as well.If they went, and the club was sold, the
0:16:16 > 0:16:20commercial opportunities and opportunism he spoke about would get
0:16:20 > 0:16:26even worse, would it?
0:16:27 > 0:16:29even worse, would it?No, it would, in a way, they have capitalised on
0:16:29 > 0:16:36it. I think it would be valued now going forward, I don't think
0:16:36 > 0:16:39someone, given, they would see it as a good investment. But it wouldn't
0:16:39 > 0:16:43be the sort of investment it was, it has turned out to be for these guys
0:16:43 > 0:16:48and that is the problem. A lot of -- fans can profess about having the
0:16:48 > 0:16:54club at Hearts and they might well do, who we to say they have not? But
0:16:54 > 0:16:57from a business and commercial and opportunistic and financial sense,
0:16:57 > 0:17:02it is a great deal for them.How do you think West Ham will be punished?
0:17:02 > 0:17:07On this occasion, and would have thought a suspended fine and a
0:17:07 > 0:17:12suspended part ground closure, a foreclosure will not happen. And
0:17:12 > 0:17:17they will be asked to explain what went wrong with stewarding. I think
0:17:17 > 0:17:22a suspended fine and may be part ground closure.Is this different
0:17:22 > 0:17:28what happened at West Ham, is this different to the pitch invasion at
0:17:28 > 0:17:34the end of Wigan and Manchester City at the end of the FA Cup?Well, yes.
0:17:34 > 0:17:41Why? We would going on to celebrate an incredible result.But players
0:17:41 > 0:17:44safety was more compromised, you could argue, at Wigan rather than
0:17:44 > 0:17:48West Ham.You could argue, but from time to time over the years, we have
0:17:48 > 0:17:53seen supporters coming onto the pitch because of a joyous occasion
0:17:53 > 0:17:57and they were celebrating that. You are hoping, OK, there was an
0:17:57 > 0:18:02incident with Aguero and that was unfortunate. This is different, it
0:18:02 > 0:18:06is fans wanting to vent their anger and it is almost like a symbolism of
0:18:06 > 0:18:10how bad the club is at the moment and how divided it is and that is a
0:18:10 > 0:18:13huge noise they are making. They decided to do this because they have
0:18:13 > 0:18:18not been listened to by the owners. I wonder what you can have one rule
0:18:18 > 0:18:23for one pitch invasion and another for another?Like Mike said, at the
0:18:23 > 0:18:29end of the season, and of Cup games, people get overenthusiastic. But I
0:18:29 > 0:18:37think the easy way is, you are not allowed on the pitch.They are not
0:18:37 > 0:18:44doing that during the FA Cup. If you want to get in touch, let's
0:18:44 > 0:18:48know. Arsenal versus Amrit of the first game this Sunday afternoon,
0:18:48 > 0:18:55John Watson has the team news. -- versus Sunderland.
0:18:55 > 0:19:01Six changes for Arsenal following the AC Milan game on Sunday. Niles
0:19:01 > 0:19:10replacing chambers, holding in the middle replacing Koscielny.
0:19:11 > 0:19:12middle replacing Koscielny. And Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang replacing
0:19:12 > 0:19:19well back. Ramsey and Wilts may have been left out with Arsene Wenger's
0:19:19 > 0:19:25mind on the second leg against AC Milan on Thursday. Ramires plays at
0:19:25 > 0:19:33right back for Watford. A new face on the bench, Jerome Sinclair, a
0:19:33 > 0:19:39young English striker who Watford signed from Liverpool.
0:19:39 > 0:19:491:30pm kick-off at the Emirates, Martin, Keith and Andy in the
0:19:49 > 0:19:52studio. Do you think Arsene Wenger is prioritising the rope a league?
0:19:52 > 0:19:58100%. Understandably so? Of course, that is how he works at holding onto
0:19:58 > 0:20:05his job, is that bigger problem. The AC Milan was quite refreshing to see
0:20:05 > 0:20:09them play, he talked about being pragmatic but he was returning to
0:20:09 > 0:20:12his philosophy because he played Ramsey and Wilshere together
0:20:12 > 0:20:19honourably for only the second time in five years. And that was only --
0:20:19 > 0:20:22a very attacking performance and they rekindled their confidence
0:20:22 > 0:20:27overnight. A lot of changes today, Troy Deeney was a player in the
0:20:27 > 0:20:40dugout after their last win, the players, saying they did not
0:20:40 > 0:20:42players, saying they did not have any cojones.. Interesting to see
0:20:42 > 0:20:47that rings true. I would be looking for him going into today.I don't
0:20:47 > 0:20:51doubt that for one minute. Would you be using that to inspire your team
0:20:51 > 0:20:56if an opponent said that against you earlier?Yes. It would be a
0:20:56 > 0:21:02newspaper cutting on the changing room wall. You use anything as a
0:21:02 > 0:21:09manager and coach to give your team extra spark. Going back to Arsenal
0:21:09 > 0:21:14with the win midweek. He needed a win in any competition. How he has
0:21:14 > 0:21:21handled the media, the press, the negative press he has been getting.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25I watch his interviews and he is a man under pressure. How you has
0:21:25 > 0:21:30handled it and himself under pressure is excellent. As a manager,
0:21:30 > 0:21:36I have a lot of respect and a lot of time for him.When you study his
0:21:36 > 0:21:39interviews, what you like about them, in the sense that he does not
0:21:39 > 0:21:47rise to anything? It is the same demeanour?Yes, he has a level of
0:21:47 > 0:21:51consistency about him. Some of the questions from the media and the
0:21:51 > 0:21:54reporters, you think, that is naughty. I get it, my local press,
0:21:54 > 0:21:59some questions, I am like, I don't like that. And I usually go off on a
0:21:59 > 0:22:06tangent and give an answer about eight minutes long and don't reply
0:22:06 > 0:22:12to the question. Keith, meet Martin! But how he has handled the press and
0:22:12 > 0:22:17the situation, a lot of credit to him.As a former player, it is very
0:22:17 > 0:22:21difficult to talk about coach macro because he is probably the best
0:22:21 > 0:22:25manager I have ever worked for and there has been a decline, without
0:22:25 > 0:22:31doubt, but obviously, you are loyal to him, but you have a
0:22:31 > 0:22:36responsibility to say what you see. And things have not gone as he would
0:22:36 > 0:22:41have liked. But the way he handles those questions, he just remains
0:22:41 > 0:22:45remarkably consistent because that his out he is, remarkably stable.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49The team is not performing the ship, but he will see it as a lifeline,
0:22:49 > 0:22:54the Europa League, because he is a survivor. He survives and it would
0:22:54 > 0:22:57not surprise me if he got through and Atletico Madrid will probably
0:22:57 > 0:23:01have something to say about that and he has not got past Milan but that
0:23:01 > 0:23:07is what he's clinging to. Today is not a sideshow but he is the team,
0:23:07 > 0:23:12he has made changes because of Milan.Keith is saying about the
0:23:12 > 0:23:17curveball questions and how he handles those, he has been doing
0:23:17 > 0:23:21this for over two decades. Just as a sideline to the relationship the
0:23:21 > 0:23:25press have with him, I cannot remember him ever dodging the
0:23:25 > 0:23:29question or an interview, ever dodging a press conference and not
0:23:29 > 0:23:31turning up for a press conference, ever banning an individual
0:23:31 > 0:23:36journalist. We know managers who have banned journalists, every other
0:23:36 > 0:23:43week. He has never banned individual journalists. But he has never
0:23:43 > 0:23:47developed any relationships with journalists. You would get managers
0:23:47 > 0:23:49who have their favourites journalists. So it is very
0:23:49 > 0:23:54intriguing. He is not beholden to anyone. He maintains that sort of
0:23:54 > 0:24:02detachment from us and I think that... Really important, don't you
0:24:02 > 0:24:09think? It is important. But you then get, if a manager does have certain
0:24:09 > 0:24:12relationships with certain journalists, we would like to think
0:24:12 > 0:24:15we would not be influenced by that. But we could not sit here and say,
0:24:15 > 0:24:20we are not going to look on the positive side of things if we have a
0:24:20 > 0:24:25good relationship with that manager. This week, he said something very
0:24:25 > 0:24:29interesting, that he does not take anything personal. It is not a
0:24:29 > 0:24:32personal attack on me, it is an attack on my performances and my
0:24:32 > 0:24:38results. He separates himself almost so he can step back. If you take
0:24:38 > 0:24:43things personally, you react to them.Is that just because of the
0:24:43 > 0:24:46results or because of the fact every time he picks up a newspaper or he
0:24:46 > 0:24:50watches people on television or the radio, they are calling for him
0:24:50 > 0:24:59basically to be sacked, basically. We all have to live with that.At no
0:24:59 > 0:25:02point, he has questioned whether he has still got it any more, he still
0:25:02 > 0:25:07believes in himself, he has to do that first. He keeps himself stable.
0:25:07 > 0:25:11The first hour of the day is for him, he exercises and focuses for
0:25:11 > 0:25:15the day and the rest of the day is for everyone else and he has to be
0:25:15 > 0:25:19in the position as a manager, it is something I have never done, you
0:25:19 > 0:25:26understand it.Do you lead and do you listen and maybe when, it is it
0:25:26 > 0:25:32more of a bubble in Carlisle? Or do you not look at the local paper or
0:25:32 > 0:25:39listen to the radio?If we won, I look at the paper. If we have lost,
0:25:39 > 0:25:44I stay awake and I don't switch the radio on or go to the club's
0:25:44 > 0:25:50website, I stay away from negativity.Is that hard to do as a
0:25:50 > 0:25:56manager?Yes. Because we lose games. The thing I do as a manager, I
0:25:56 > 0:26:00protect my players. If we have negative results, it is all about me
0:26:00 > 0:26:03and I have said it in the local press. When we are winning, I share
0:26:03 > 0:26:07the success with everybody involved in the club that helps us get
0:26:07 > 0:26:15results, I share that. When we lose, blame me. If you go two goals down,
0:26:15 > 0:26:21I want to be the focal point. If there is any disgruntlement in the
0:26:21 > 0:26:26crowd, focus it on me. I need my players to perform. The environment
0:26:26 > 0:26:30they are playing in now is not conducive to players going out and
0:26:30 > 0:26:34expressing themselves.Have you always done that in your managerial
0:26:34 > 0:26:38career or have you learned to experience to do that? And how
0:26:38 > 0:26:43mentally difficult is that?I was lucky, I worked with Neil Warnock.
0:26:43 > 0:26:50He is a character, he goes into the grounds and before a ball has been
0:26:50 > 0:26:56kicked, he is getting abuse. But he enjoys it. The abuse from the way
0:26:56 > 0:27:00supporters, not his own! One thing I picked up from him was if things are
0:27:00 > 0:27:04not going well for your team, make sure you are the focal point because
0:27:04 > 0:27:07you need your players to turn results round and the only way to
0:27:07 > 0:27:13get results is if your players perform.Then you stood out in the
0:27:13 > 0:27:17technical area and getting stick and abuse from your own fans and you are
0:27:17 > 0:27:242-0 down. Then you are wanting, you are trying to concentrate on what is
0:27:24 > 0:27:30in front of you and maybe make changes.I don't listen to anybody.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34Visually, I am the focal point. Some managers, a goal goes against them
0:27:34 > 0:27:39and they go further back in the dugout, you want to shield yourself.
0:27:39 > 0:27:45You have got to be the shield for the players. Go even further out.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49Invariably, I don't listen to the supporters.As a player, you want to
0:27:49 > 0:27:54play for a manager that is protecting you. You never heard so
0:27:54 > 0:27:58Alex Ferguson having a go at his players publicly. You do not hear
0:27:58 > 0:28:03Wenger. In 21 years, I never remember the Crewe on having a go at
0:28:03 > 0:28:10his players, so you give extra for those type of managers.You mean in
0:28:10 > 0:28:13private and public?Particularly in public because it becomes an us and
0:28:13 > 0:28:17then situation and you need to be together and a manager has to take
0:28:17 > 0:28:19that responsibility, and went manager steps forward to do that,
0:28:19 > 0:28:23you try that bit harder for that manager.But if you go back to Andy
0:28:23 > 0:28:28saying he is not sleeping, if you are in private and away from the
0:28:28 > 0:28:35public criticism, do you sit with a Cup of tea and wonder what you are
0:28:35 > 0:28:39doing?No, I have got belief in the players I signed because since I
0:28:39 > 0:28:44have been there, I have got one player from the old regime, but the
0:28:44 > 0:28:49players I brought in at Carlisle, I have put them in and for a reason.
0:28:49 > 0:28:53Sleepless nights when you get beaten, the worst time is the drive
0:28:53 > 0:28:56home after the game. I live in Sheffield so the drive back from
0:28:56 > 0:29:02Carlisle, I relive all the way, so I get three hours to get that out of
0:29:02 > 0:29:07my system and I going and I don't speak to the kids or the girlfriend
0:29:07 > 0:29:12and it is one of those. It doesn't come out until I am back in training
0:29:12 > 0:29:17on Monday and then I let the result go. Does it affect you? Yes, of
0:29:17 > 0:29:23does. I needed to change my own personal balance. I needed a level
0:29:23 > 0:29:29of consistency as an individual because I had it as an assistant
0:29:29 > 0:29:33manager and I went back to QPR with migratory and I wanted to go again
0:29:33 > 0:29:38and be a manager and work on my own. And to do that, I knew that I needed
0:29:38 > 0:29:42to be different so I gave up drinking and I have a level of
0:29:42 > 0:29:46consistency about me and it has helped me as an individual to deal
0:29:46 > 0:29:50so I don't get too high if we win again. I don't get as low as I did
0:29:50 > 0:29:54when I had had a drink before.If you look at what they are doing in
0:29:54 > 0:29:58the Premier League and I have spoken to other managers about this, if you
0:29:58 > 0:30:02are right at the top in the Premier League, especially with European
0:30:02 > 0:30:05competitions, you could do six press conferences a week at least.
0:30:05 > 0:30:10Probably more talking to the media post match and pre-match.These
0:30:10 > 0:30:16young managers, young and impressionable young men, they need
0:30:16 > 0:30:20to be stable. He has to live his life as he expects the players to
0:30:20 > 0:30:25lead Bears and why not? That is always what Wenger taught me the
0:30:25 > 0:30:29most and I still stick to things in my life taught to me by him because
0:30:29 > 0:30:33he has created that habit and behaviour with people because he
0:30:33 > 0:30:37does it from a stable base and it sounds like he is doing the same at
0:30:37 > 0:30:41Carlisle. They respect you more for that. If you are not stable, you are
0:30:41 > 0:30:44erratic with your decision making and what you say and not consistent
0:30:44 > 0:30:48in your behaviour and it is very difficult to play-by-play who is not
0:30:48 > 0:30:54consistent and rants and raves and he is calm the next day.
0:30:54 > 0:31:00But when everybody wants a piece of you, 17, 18 hours a day!I must say
0:31:00 > 0:31:06I enjoyed the press Conference we have at Carlisle. It's not the
0:31:06 > 0:31:11Premier League, but I've never refused the press. We'd been on some
0:31:11 > 0:31:15bad runs when you're thinking, I don't want to do them. The press
0:31:15 > 0:31:20officer will drag me out of the office and say it has to be done. I
0:31:20 > 0:31:27get on well with my local press, Mike Sherman hates them! -- my
0:31:27 > 0:31:32chairman hate them! But I've got a duty to the team and the
0:31:32 > 0:31:36supporters...I've got a good friend a Carlisle fan who are bullied you
0:31:36 > 0:31:46didn't beat Wycombe Wanderers! -- who can't believe.We were cruising
0:31:46 > 0:31:52and the next thing we got beat 4-3. Do you do the press straight after?
0:31:52 > 0:31:59Straight after, five minutes later do UCD press? That is when we like
0:31:59 > 0:32:05to see managers. There was this thing about ten years ago that
0:32:05 > 0:32:10managers would have an hour to cool off. By then they were all sensible!
0:32:10 > 0:32:15You want them coming in and you want the emotions.I'm slightly lucky
0:32:15 > 0:32:21because of the location. The local paper and radio are Carlisle fans as
0:32:21 > 0:32:30well. But they have a job to do as well. In your mind you're thinking
0:32:30 > 0:32:37you're flying high and I can say this and that and it all changes in
0:32:37 > 0:32:43two minutes. Ten minutes later I have to speak to the press. And they
0:32:43 > 0:32:51open with, what happened there? Celtic have equalised at Ibrox on
0:32:51 > 0:32:58the stroke of half-time through Mousa Dembele. Let's talk about
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Manchester United against Liverpool at Old Trafford yesterday. Jose
0:33:01 > 0:33:07Mourinho said afterwards after the two goals from Marcus Rashford, he
0:33:07 > 0:33:11said he spoke with Gareth Southgate, he said it does not matter if he
0:33:11 > 0:33:15plays or not, he trusts the kid and the kid goes to the World Cup so he
0:33:15 > 0:33:20didn't need to impress. Gareth Southgate was at Old Trafford
0:33:20 > 0:33:26yesterday. Was Rashford the story? One of them. And he was the story
0:33:26 > 0:33:33when we picked up the team sheet. No matter what Gareth has said to Jose,
0:33:33 > 0:33:39he had not started since Boxing Day. And a variety of reasons he is the
0:33:39 > 0:33:44story come including this idea that when Jose came, how would the
0:33:44 > 0:33:49younger players develop? Does he trust them? The kids who have come
0:33:49 > 0:33:56through the Academy? We've been looking at it, he bought Sanchez,
0:33:56 > 0:33:59Rashford has played plenty of football this season, and you get
0:33:59 > 0:34:02the team sheet and he is playing and he does what he does. From an
0:34:02 > 0:34:08England point of view, I think it's right, he was always going to go.
0:34:08 > 0:34:13Mainly because he has the pace as a surprise element and Gareth
0:34:13 > 0:34:16Southgate isn't blessed with a whole lot of options up front when you've
0:34:16 > 0:34:23ticked off Harry Kane and Jamie Vardy. The rest is much as we will
0:34:23 > 0:34:26see when the squad is announced on Thursday for the friendlies against
0:34:26 > 0:34:33Holland and Italy. On a lot of levels it was the story. And from a
0:34:33 > 0:34:39united point of view, can he get him in to start more often?I think what
0:34:39 > 0:34:44he did do yesterday underlined how good he is. He has been out for a
0:34:44 > 0:34:48long time. He is a special talent, no doubt, and I like it that
0:34:48 > 0:34:53Southgate has said he will play because he has too. We assume Kane
0:34:53 > 0:34:58down the middle, Sterling on the right and Rashford on the left, that
0:34:58 > 0:35:03is an effective front three. I think he is well balanced and looked after
0:35:03 > 0:35:08in the club and has not lost any of his confidence. Maybe he was trying
0:35:08 > 0:35:14a bit too hard, just majority, there seem to be more composure yesterday,
0:35:14 > 0:35:21the finishes were outstanding. He has to play now. Martial injured and
0:35:21 > 0:35:25Sanchez loss of form is the only reason he played.He also has to get
0:35:25 > 0:35:30used to the fact that in some games, like yesterday, it sounds strange,
0:35:30 > 0:35:34but apart from the two goals he was playing as a second left-back a lot
0:35:34 > 0:35:38of the time, covering the runs at Alexander-Arnold rather than the
0:35:38 > 0:35:46other way round. He scored from those two, what United saw as the
0:35:46 > 0:35:50weakness, the flick on and that danger but apart from that, he will
0:35:50 > 0:35:54have to have a lot of defensive discipline under any Jose Mourinho
0:35:54 > 0:36:00team.But he is still learning and lung and developing -- the young and
0:36:00 > 0:36:05developing.Young players come in and out of possession, you get the
0:36:05 > 0:36:10flair players and matchwinners, out possession you have a job,
0:36:10 > 0:36:14especially at Man United with Jose Mourinho. It is having that
0:36:14 > 0:36:16understanding and mentality and maturity to do it naturally as well
0:36:16 > 0:36:20and it does not come naturally to young players, chasing people back.
0:36:20 > 0:36:27They always want to go that way. You have to be in position.And we can't
0:36:27 > 0:36:31say he is going to be tired, we want people who are fresh in the team. He
0:36:31 > 0:36:39has been well looked after. Martial has been used. But he is a huge
0:36:39 > 0:36:42talent. You can see them coming along very rarely come at the top
0:36:42 > 0:36:46players, and I think he's in that category.This is a leading question
0:36:46 > 0:36:49because it is obviously in the discussion of Manchester United and
0:36:49 > 0:36:54Liverpool but if you pick an England left-back at the moment who is it?
0:36:54 > 0:36:59Good question, I would always go for Rose because I think Pochettino has
0:36:59 > 0:37:02decided this season that he is the one who stepped out of line and does
0:37:02 > 0:37:08not want to sort out his contract. Like Kyle Walker last year. It is
0:37:08 > 0:37:12not his ability, he should be playing, and Pochettino has that his
0:37:12 > 0:37:18nose off to spite his face.He has got Ben Davies as well.I think
0:37:18 > 0:37:23small mistakes.
0:37:23 > 0:37:29small mistakes. I think on that side there are issues but that is the
0:37:29 > 0:37:33decision for the manager. I commend him for that because he wants the
0:37:33 > 0:37:36loyalty and the Spurs players to stick together and anybody who shows
0:37:36 > 0:37:39signs of going is not going to play and that is what has happened to
0:37:39 > 0:37:45Danny Rose.
0:37:45 > 0:37:49Danny Rose. But yesterday Ashley Young played exceptionally well. It
0:37:49 > 0:37:53is interesting how a player so old can go to full-back and do it so
0:37:53 > 0:37:59well. Salah was in his pocket. Sometimes it is easier to keep
0:37:59 > 0:38:04playing in front of you will stop he did not look out of place.What is
0:38:04 > 0:38:09remarkable about Ashley Young, considering he's a converted
0:38:09 > 0:38:13full-back and not a natural, out of all of them he's the best defender.
0:38:13 > 0:38:20Out of all of the contenders?Danny Rose, Ryan Bertrand, Ashley Young, I
0:38:20 > 0:38:25think he is the most accomplished defender yet what we would call the
0:38:25 > 0:38:31least natural full-back. The one I would start is the best defender.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35England have been undone so many times by taking full-backs who can
0:38:35 > 0:38:41attack and that has become the modern vogue. I want the best
0:38:41 > 0:38:44defender, who is going to see that somebody is in trouble. Remember the
0:38:44 > 0:38:49goal against Italy, it was going to go over the head of Cahill and the
0:38:49 > 0:38:55full-back can see it and is not covering. I want the equivalent of
0:38:55 > 0:38:58Ashley Cole whose first priority is to cover his centre-backs, track the
0:38:58 > 0:39:05runs like Dybala for Juventus, the best defender for a change, not the
0:39:05 > 0:39:11one who can run at Kyle Walker speed and about 60 yards in 60 seconds --
0:39:11 > 0:39:15in six seconds and cross it.We're waiting to see what system he will
0:39:15 > 0:39:20play, if he plays three at the back or five and who are the central
0:39:20 > 0:39:24defenders. What has happened to them? Harry Maguire looks the best
0:39:24 > 0:39:30and was not even playing for England this time last year. Cahill not
0:39:30 > 0:39:36playing, Stones...
0:39:36 > 0:39:39playing, Stones...Maguire and Tarkowski are the ones playing
0:39:39 > 0:39:46readily and well.I've got to say, I saw him at Sheffield United, if
0:39:46 > 0:39:50someone said he was an England content and international, at the
0:39:50 > 0:39:53time I would have disagreed. I thought he lacked pace and mobility.
0:39:53 > 0:40:00Can handle the ball and step in. I was worried he could never catch up
0:40:00 > 0:40:05play but here's a footballing brain. So do you think he is reading the
0:40:05 > 0:40:09game better than he was when you had him at Sheffield United?I never had
0:40:09 > 0:40:14Harry, but is reading is excellent, he does not get caught out and does
0:40:14 > 0:40:20not get involved in races. Going back to my era people used to say
0:40:20 > 0:40:25that Steve Bruce lacked pace but he never got involved in races.Never
0:40:25 > 0:40:30got an England cap.You have written today about the problems with the
0:40:30 > 0:40:36England defence.With John Stones in particular. This shows how
0:40:36 > 0:40:40international football can change but three or four months ago at the
0:40:40 > 0:40:43last England get-together John Stones came into one of the press
0:40:43 > 0:40:45conferences and we thought he would be named England captain but he
0:40:45 > 0:40:52wasn't at it happened. Within the camp it was clear that Southgate
0:40:52 > 0:40:55regards him at the feud of his central defence.Does it matter he's
0:40:55 > 0:41:05not playing readily?If it does. Because in his case he has to be a
0:41:05 > 0:41:10confidence player -- yes, it does. Did he look confident against Basel
0:41:10 > 0:41:15the other night? Against Wigan when he played?We are saying City are
0:41:15 > 0:41:23one of the best teams we have seen, and as with Rashford it is a
0:41:23 > 0:41:25difficult situation. Can we just discovered people because they're
0:41:25 > 0:41:31not playing? In an ideal situation you want him to be playing.But will
0:41:31 > 0:41:38he be worried that he can't get ahead of, with respect, Otamendi,
0:41:38 > 0:41:41Laporte and Kompany? We are saying he is one of the best centre halves
0:41:41 > 0:41:46in the world.He clearly isn't because he is behind. He is fourth,
0:41:46 > 0:41:52fifth in line at his own club. There is the goalkeeping situation, a
0:41:52 > 0:41:55whole catalogue of problems for Gareth Southgate to work through.
0:41:55 > 0:42:00The fund three is pretty simple but the back of the team is a problem --
0:42:00 > 0:42:05at the front three.I want to end with Jan Vertonghen who is in a lot
0:42:05 > 0:42:09of the papers, Spurs against Bournemouth later this afternoon, he
0:42:09 > 0:42:18talks in his interview about how he think it is more important, trophies
0:42:18 > 0:42:22are more special if you grow as a team together and eventually win one
0:42:22 > 0:42:25rather than going and joining a club and immediately winning a trophy.
0:42:25 > 0:42:31Does it make sense?It makes sense from a player 's point of view. The
0:42:31 > 0:42:35unity within a changing room, when you get the dynamics, the
0:42:35 > 0:42:38characters, and that bond, there is nothing better than being successful
0:42:38 > 0:42:42and winning a trophy rather than being a team that goes out and buys
0:42:42 > 0:42:48marquee signings to win them.It means a whole lot more, there is no
0:42:48 > 0:42:55doubt...To win a trophy with your mates.I found myself in the
0:42:55 > 0:42:58situation, 98 and 99, Manchester United winning everything and you go
0:42:58 > 0:43:04barren years, losing the cup final to Liverpool, and in 2002 you win
0:43:04 > 0:43:08again and I could tell you now it tastes really good. You look around
0:43:08 > 0:43:13the group and you think, we did that together, fellas. You didn't just
0:43:13 > 0:43:17turn up midway through. He's right, they should stick together, those
0:43:17 > 0:43:20Tottenham players, and I feel is quite a special group and I feel
0:43:20 > 0:43:27they're unlucky. The minute things cost you at the top level. The
0:43:27 > 0:43:31Champions League, you have to learn the hard way.Bournemouth against
0:43:31 > 0:43:35Spurs is 4pm, Arsenal against Watford before that, both games on
0:43:35 > 0:43:43five Live this afternoon. Nathan says, insightful stuff from Keith
0:43:43 > 0:43:44Curle, the application and professionalism he has shown at
0:43:44 > 0:43:49Carlisle has been exceptional. Apologies to Southampton fans, we
0:43:49 > 0:43:54have not had time to talk about your club. I would imagine that is a
0:43:54 > 0:43:58relief at the moment! Thank you, see you on Match of the Day to later.