:00:09. > :00:10.Welcome to a special edition of Wales Today.
:00:11. > :00:13.As Scotland rejects independence - a promise of more powers for Wales
:00:14. > :00:16.The First Minister says, Wales' underfunding must be addressed - and
:00:17. > :00:26.it's time for all the home nations to get around the negotiating table.
:00:27. > :00:36.The all union is dead. We need to forge a new union. It is time to sit
:00:37. > :00:40.together as for nations and work this through.
:00:41. > :00:42.From Lloyd George to Nye Bevan to Neil Kinnock,
:00:43. > :00:44.Wales has given Westminster some of Britain's biggest political hitters,
:00:45. > :00:48.All the main political parties are here.
:00:49. > :01:07.With change inevitable now for Wales do you want more devolution?
:01:08. > :01:11.On the day that Scotland voted No, what next for the future
:01:12. > :01:16.And, more importantly, how does it affect us here in Wales?
:01:17. > :01:19.The First Minister Carwyn Jones has described the union as we know it
:01:20. > :01:24.The Prime Minister says he wants Wales at the centre of negotiations.
:01:25. > :01:35.One thing's for sure - there's a change on the way for us.
:01:36. > :01:50.An emotional end to more than two years of campaigning. And a more
:01:51. > :01:58.decisive result for the No camp than was predicted. But the Prime
:01:59. > :02:03.Minister had no time to relax. A new and fair settlement for Scotland
:02:04. > :02:07.should be accompanied by a fair settlement for all parts of the
:02:08. > :02:21.United Kingdom. There are proposals in Wales to give the assembly more
:02:22. > :02:25.powers. Carwyn Jones wanted talk about constitutional reform before
:02:26. > :02:33.the referendum in Scotland but his pleas fell on deaf ears. Today they
:02:34. > :02:40.demanded a place at the table. Wales cannot and will not play second
:02:41. > :02:48.fiddle. The people of Wales regardless of where they were born
:02:49. > :02:54.are part of our nation. They deserve an equal voice. You have been
:02:55. > :03:03.talking about a constitutional convention. I want to see the wheels
:03:04. > :03:11.Bill considered. I want a rethink of income tax proposals. -- the Wales
:03:12. > :03:16.Bill considered. I recognise this cannot be done on a bilateral basis.
:03:17. > :03:22.We have to talk to each other. Extra power for the assembly already in
:03:23. > :03:31.the pipeline. The Welsh Government will be in charge of stamp duty. It
:03:32. > :03:35.would also have limited powers on income taxes people consent to it in
:03:36. > :03:38.a referendum. It is currently going through the House of Lords where it
:03:39. > :03:46.will be examined line by line next month. A report by the Silk
:03:47. > :03:50.Commission suggests energy policy and policing should also be
:03:51. > :03:54.devolved. It's the really a change for a Welsh MPs also? The Prime
:03:55. > :04:05.Minister has suggested they will be stopped from voting on things that
:04:06. > :04:10.only affect England. There is a lot that we agree on in
:04:11. > :04:18.terms of how we make sure that the voice of Wales is heard. Also that
:04:19. > :04:25.there are other ideas regarding a constitutional convention. There has
:04:26. > :04:31.to be a lot more discussion in the days and weeks ahead. But for those
:04:32. > :04:35.who oppose devolution there is a word of caution. We used to think
:04:36. > :04:40.what is best for us, not just what is best for Scotland. We need to
:04:41. > :04:45.think of our situation. Can we afford things such as devolution of
:04:46. > :04:53.welfare? Can we afford a separate criminal justice system? Before
:04:54. > :04:58.Scotland had even delivered its verdict Carwyn Jones degree the all
:04:59. > :05:02.the union dead. And Westminster tonight there is a lot of attention
:05:03. > :05:05.on England. Politicians from all parties say they are determined to
:05:06. > :05:07.make sure the voice of Wales is not thrown about.
:05:08. > :05:09.Owen Smith is the Shadow Secretary of State for Wales.
:05:10. > :05:11.Leanne Wood is the leader of Plaid Cymru.
:05:12. > :05:13.Alun Cairns is the Conservative Wales Office Minister.
:05:14. > :05:20.And Kirsty Williams is Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats.
:05:21. > :05:29.The focus of your leader will be on wheels and Scotland. The Prime
:05:30. > :05:42.Minister said he wanted Wales jury at the heart of the discussion. Bat
:05:43. > :05:48.Wales and Scotland. How much more plane could he make
:05:49. > :05:55.it? In the statement Wales was centre stage. We are not clear what
:05:56. > :06:02.Welsh Labour wants. I was at a press conference this morning. Labour does
:06:03. > :06:16.need to speak with one focused boys. I am very clear. You might be. --
:06:17. > :06:24.speak with one focused voice. The other important contribution to date
:06:25. > :06:31.was from Ed Miliband. We will start a national debate, it'd be led by
:06:32. > :06:44.the Labour Party. It will be led by the people, not by Westminster.
:06:45. > :06:50.Labour is going to see the people offer their views about devolution.
:06:51. > :06:54.One thing we must take from Scotland is not just that people voted to
:06:55. > :07:00.stick together, they also wanted to change. People who voted Yes and No.
:07:01. > :07:04.They are reflecting a desire for change both in Scotland and in the
:07:05. > :07:10.rest of the country. It is constitutional change and Labour
:07:11. > :07:14.will deliver that. We have had a lack of detail from both the Labour
:07:15. > :07:21.Party and the Conservatives in terms of what this means. There is a lack
:07:22. > :07:25.of clarity as well in terms of the question of England. If for example
:07:26. > :07:31.English MPs could only vote on English matters where does that
:07:32. > :07:35.place Wales with regard to funding of the health service? Decisions
:07:36. > :07:41.taken in England on spending on English public services have an
:07:42. > :07:43.impact on Wales because we would get a corresponding cut to our
:07:44. > :07:50.allocations under the Barnett Formula. We will come on to that
:07:51. > :07:55.shortly. The fascinating thing about the last few hours as the
:07:56. > :08:01.politicians have amongst themselves topped but what they want. The great
:08:02. > :08:06.Welsh public not been consulted. We will have more devolution anyway,
:08:07. > :08:10.want to be? I would love to see as replicate the kind of debate that
:08:11. > :08:15.has taken place in Scotland. I spent time in Scotland and the campaign
:08:16. > :08:18.there was amazing. The level of engagement and information was
:08:19. > :08:22.amazing. I have never experienced anything like that in politics
:08:23. > :08:29.before. If we could have a similar conversation and Wales and really
:08:30. > :08:33.fired the imagination of our citizens then weekly to create
:08:34. > :08:39.something very special. You have all been campaigning there. You all know
:08:40. > :08:43.having worked in Wales for years that we are light years away from
:08:44. > :08:53.that kind of energy. The BBC did a Paul recently. 34% of people felt
:08:54. > :08:59.devolution had led to an improvement. 46% said it had not
:09:00. > :09:06.made much difference. -- the BBC did an opinion survey recently.
:09:07. > :09:11.There is a difference between accepting the principle of decision
:09:12. > :09:14.making being brought closer to the people and lack of satisfaction with
:09:15. > :09:20.the type of politicians within the institution. What is clear to me is
:09:21. > :09:25.that we can either hunker down and pretend that this is not happening
:09:26. > :09:29.and we will be either ignored or swept along with events. It is now
:09:30. > :09:36.time to dry and develop a consensus in Wales is that we can speak as
:09:37. > :09:45.much as possible with one voice. That is the best way. We have a good
:09:46. > :09:50.basis with the Silk Commission. We are involved in that Commission. It
:09:51. > :09:56.has consulted widely across wheels. That is the basis to take the
:09:57. > :10:11.conversation forward. -- widely across Wales. We could also amend
:10:12. > :10:25.the wheels Bill. -- amend the Wales Bill. We had this commitment at the
:10:26. > :10:35.late stages of the campaign from the three No campaigners. That has
:10:36. > :10:41.already fallen apart. What we saw in Scotland was a desire for change. It
:10:42. > :10:47.is replicated in England and in Wales. It is not just change in the
:10:48. > :10:54.Constitution, it is more profound. People are really needed from
:10:55. > :11:04.politics at all levels. We can use this energy and dry to construct a
:11:05. > :11:08.greater belief in politics. Let me bring you in. How committed are the
:11:09. > :11:15.Conservatives to change you? This review is about responding to the
:11:16. > :11:20.demands both in Scotland and across the rest of the United Kingdom.
:11:21. > :11:24.These are big decisions. We have had review after review, commissioned
:11:25. > :11:28.after Commission. This Prime Minister is not going to avoid these
:11:29. > :11:32.big decisions. He is prepared to bring forward strategist and in
:11:33. > :11:41.before the next general election so people can have their say on that. I
:11:42. > :11:49.am concerned about the attitude the Labour Party is showing already
:11:50. > :11:53.after the potential risk of an independent vote in Scotland. They
:11:54. > :11:59.are attending to take this into the long grass. What we saw this morning
:12:00. > :12:05.was the Prime Minister of this country recording in a narrow and
:12:06. > :12:10.partisan way. This is about building a consensus. He wanted to buy of
:12:11. > :12:19.backbenchers. Labour is not doing that. We shall move on now.
:12:20. > :12:21.The Prime Minister has also promised change for Westminster.
:12:22. > :12:23.One suggestion is that only English MPs vote
:12:24. > :12:28.So Welsh MPs - like Owen and Alun - wouldn't be given a say
:12:29. > :12:29.on things like schools and hospitals in England,
:12:30. > :12:37.So where would that leave the 40 Welsh MPs we currently send
:12:38. > :12:50.A rich history. David Lloyd George the Chancellor who gave as pensions
:12:51. > :12:56.and the wartime Prime Minister. Neil Kinnock led Labour in two
:12:57. > :13:05.elections. But I the days of their Welsh at Westminster numbered? A
:13:06. > :13:10.draft law to give Scotland more powers over tax and welfare will be
:13:11. > :13:15.published in January. Voters should then be able to see what will be on
:13:16. > :13:18.offer in the general election. If Labour win that election Ed Miliband
:13:19. > :13:23.is promising a constitutional convention to look at change across
:13:24. > :13:26.the UK. At the same time David Cameron says MPs from Wales and
:13:27. > :13:31.Scotland should be stopped from voting on English issues. Labour
:13:32. > :13:39.says that as a trap to stop them ruling from Westminster. He says the
:13:40. > :13:45.English want this for the English. I wish he would start being the Prime
:13:46. > :13:54.Minister of the United Kingdom and not the Prime Minister of England
:13:55. > :13:59.and the Tory backbenchers. Every time they spent 300 million extra in
:14:00. > :14:03.England some of that money has to come to Wales. Do they want to
:14:04. > :14:11.exclude us from making financial decisions for Wales? This is where
:14:12. > :14:17.the media comes to dry to make sense of what is happening in Britain's
:14:18. > :14:26.politics. MPs here are increasingly asking the English question. Bernard
:14:27. > :14:31.Jenkins cheers public administration committee at Westminster. He wants
:14:32. > :14:34.English devolution. What is good for Scotland and Wales is good for
:14:35. > :14:42.England. We do not want a new building. We would like to meet as
:14:43. > :14:47.English MPs, or English and Welsh MPs in some cases, to decide the
:14:48. > :14:51.English are English and Welsh legislation. Last night's fort was
:14:52. > :14:57.decisive enough that the Yes campaign did happen to have been --
:14:58. > :15:08.last night's result was decisive enough but the Yes campaign hat into
:15:09. > :15:16.feelings. Disaffection, introspection. It is 35 years since
:15:17. > :15:22.a Welsh MP, Jim Callaghan, was Prime Minister. If David Cameron gets the
:15:23. > :15:29.answer he wants to this question he may be the last of his kind.
:15:30. > :15:36.What do you think the future is for a Welsh MPs? The detail of it will
:15:37. > :15:39.be sorted out in the draft legislation that comes foreign
:15:40. > :15:46.before the next general election. There is a big difference between
:15:47. > :15:55.Scotland and Wales. -- legislation that comes foreign words before the
:15:56. > :15:58.next general election. The way that people travel across-the-board so
:15:59. > :16:05.readily to work in terms of services. There is not that large
:16:06. > :16:11.geographical area where there are relatively few people living between
:16:12. > :16:15.the urban conurbations. The difference between Welsh MPs and
:16:16. > :16:23.Scottish MPs is very different. This is what William Hague will be
:16:24. > :16:27.reviewing. The point is that you are representing a Welsh constituency.
:16:28. > :16:30.You will not be allowed to fall on English matters. You will not be
:16:31. > :16:35.allowed to vote on Welsh matters because that is being done in
:16:36. > :16:42.Cardiff B. That is what they are proposing. They are effectively
:16:43. > :16:48.saying they will reward the Scottish people for voting to stay within the
:16:49. > :16:54.UK by saying that they will have a diminished voice in the centre of
:16:55. > :17:06.the UK at Westminster. It is a narrow partisan self serving and I'm
:17:07. > :17:12.spent. -- self serving announcement. This is only about UKIP and the Tory
:17:13. > :17:17.backbenchers. It is an incredibly partisan position for the Prime
:17:18. > :17:21.Minister, ostensibly of the UK, to take. He should be cold out on it.
:17:22. > :17:32.It is no way to solve the much bigger questions we should be
:17:33. > :17:34.talking about. Some of the major economic decisions are taken at
:17:35. > :17:40.Westminster and those decisions reflect upon the entire United
:17:41. > :17:45.Kingdom. As well as standing at the wheels. We are a family of nations.
:17:46. > :17:51.The model for Scotland is not necessarily the correct model for
:17:52. > :17:57.Wales. We do not need to be hamstrung by the model that'll fit
:17:58. > :18:01.Scotland. That is the detail that must be worked through. Let us
:18:02. > :18:06.accept the principle of the West Lothian question and see how we can
:18:07. > :18:10.develop it you may remember the years and years that Plaid Cymru
:18:11. > :18:17.tries to get into the House of Commons. We remember the story. Are
:18:18. > :18:21.you seeing that their House of Commons will become a relevance to
:18:22. > :18:27.your party? It could in the long term. But what we need is the
:18:28. > :18:32.settlement that we need. There is a consensus that we do not have the
:18:33. > :18:36.powers that we need in Wales. What is concerning me tonight is
:18:37. > :18:41.listening to these to see who last week work Better Together, offering
:18:42. > :18:51.all kinds of promises to Scotland on a joint ticket, and now they are
:18:52. > :18:56.using this argument. The constitutional timetable is
:18:57. > :19:01.fascinating. Look at what is proposed. The big elephant in the
:19:02. > :19:11.room as there is a general election just around the corner. You will
:19:12. > :19:14.also put up. It is a very challenging timetable. We consider
:19:15. > :19:21.that some of these issues have never been sorted out for decades. That
:19:22. > :19:24.puts it into perspective. There is a political will can be achieved, but
:19:25. > :19:28.if we see more of what we have witnessed tonight there is no hope
:19:29. > :19:32.of sorting it out. When it comes to the position of Welsh MPs we must
:19:33. > :19:38.have clarity over responsibilities. In the last couple of years to
:19:39. > :19:42.pieces of legislation have been passed and ended up in the courts
:19:43. > :19:46.because there was disagreement about where power lies. You cannot beat
:19:47. > :19:52.decisions about where Welsh MPs can and cannot hold until that is
:19:53. > :19:56.clarity about where power lies. You choose to a fair those pieces of
:19:57. > :20:03.legislation. We have already agreed that the clear solution to those is
:20:04. > :20:06.that you should shift of the model of powers solicitors like that for
:20:07. > :20:13.Scotland. That is a Labour commitment. But there are bigger
:20:14. > :20:16.issues that must be addressed. It is not just about the Constitution or
:20:17. > :20:27.the edges of power between Wales and Westminster. Having heard the
:20:28. > :20:37.promise that you need to Scotland recently, and now you are coming up
:20:38. > :20:43.with the constitutional arrangement. You are going back on the
:20:44. > :20:51.commitment. It is about responding positively to the vault in Scotland.
:20:52. > :20:56.Westminster parties have two on what they have promised the people of
:20:57. > :21:03.Scotland. In doing so they cannot ignore what we need in Wales. The
:21:04. > :21:07.powers, accountability and resource issues cannot be ignored. I am
:21:08. > :21:11.concerned that unless we work together and recognise this
:21:12. > :21:15.deep-seated feeling of dissatisfaction with how politics
:21:16. > :21:19.works, with high Wales has been cheated, and come up with a clear
:21:20. > :21:24.and positive version of what a new union will look like, we will end up
:21:25. > :21:27.going through the trauma in the seemly that the Scots did is because
:21:28. > :21:32.we will hand the initiative to those who want to separate us. There is a
:21:33. > :21:37.moral obligation to work together to sort this out. If we do not we will
:21:38. > :21:41.be letting down the people of Wales and the UK.
:21:42. > :21:43.Turnout at this referendum was extraordinary.
:21:44. > :21:47.To give you some context, voter turnout in Assembly Elections
:21:48. > :21:51.Just 35% of us voted in the 2011 referendum here
:21:52. > :22:00.So how can Wales' politics fire up this kind of engagement?
:22:01. > :22:03.Roger Pinney has spent the day in Ruthin as the referendum vote and
:22:04. > :22:22.With its Church spire just visible this ancient market town has seen
:22:23. > :22:29.some history. Now its people are living through a new upheaval. Those
:22:30. > :22:33.who went to bed last night woke up this morning not knowing what to
:22:34. > :22:37.expect. There is the sense that Scotland has made its decision, but
:22:38. > :22:42.people realise this is not the end of it. The way the UK works is
:22:43. > :22:47.changing. This is a place where town and country meet. At the livestock
:22:48. > :22:57.markets there was more to talk about than the price of land. But what of
:22:58. > :23:01.the impact of the vote on Wales and the promise that Scotland's gets
:23:02. > :23:12.more powers? We should have a few more powers. It is tricky. We have
:23:13. > :23:17.got a voice here in Wales. It is a new chapter in everybody's book. A
:23:18. > :23:25.page in her study turned. Compare the massive turnout in yesterday's
:23:26. > :23:31.Scottish referendum to the referendum in Wales three years ago.
:23:32. > :23:36.Only just over one third went to the ballot box. In Scotland the vote was
:23:37. > :23:45.given for the first time to 16 and 17-year-olds. I have seen that
:23:46. > :23:54.people have engaged in conversation. They have started a
:23:55. > :23:58.huge debate. The problem facing politicians know is how to engage
:23:59. > :24:04.young people. Otherwise you could have an entire generation that will
:24:05. > :24:11.not vote. The referendum was fundamental. Yes or No on
:24:12. > :24:12.independence. The future suggests major changes in the way that
:24:13. > :24:15.Britain is governed. Our Welsh Affairs Editor Vaughan
:24:16. > :24:17.Roderick is in Cardiff Bay. Perhaps the most extraordinary thing
:24:18. > :24:19.about Scotland's referendum was the way people engaged
:24:20. > :24:22.in the debate across the country. A big decision clearly invigorated
:24:23. > :24:37.the public. Many of the people who were engaged
:24:38. > :24:41.in those meetings were on the Yes side, but the people who turned out
:24:42. > :24:47.in huge numbers turned out to vote No. There is a suggestion that those
:24:48. > :24:51.people intended to vote No all along. If you are opposed to
:24:52. > :24:56.independence you knew you only have one shot. If it was Yes the United
:24:57. > :25:00.Kingdom is coming to an end. He would be living in an independent
:25:01. > :25:05.Scotland. People in the Yes side had a different perception. They thought
:25:06. > :25:10.even if the referendum is lost the question may be asked again sometime
:25:11. > :25:14.in the future. Part of the motivation was not just these
:25:15. > :25:19.campaigns going out and engaging with the public. Part of the
:25:20. > :25:24.motivation was people genuinely concerned about losing the country
:25:25. > :25:28.they currently live in. Replicating that in an election or a referendum
:25:29. > :25:36.with a fireplace clear question is difficult to do. A journalist in
:25:37. > :25:43.Edinburgh that yesterday suggested to me that what he would take away
:25:44. > :25:49.from this entire referendum story was two fingers to the critical
:25:50. > :25:53.classes. Do you agree? What will be on the minds of all politicians and
:25:54. > :25:57.particularly Labour and Conservative as there is a situation where
:25:58. > :26:03.turnout have been chopping consistently in the UK, and the
:26:04. > :26:07.percentage of people who do vote, thought for Labour or Conservative
:26:08. > :26:24.and that has been chopping. The old Jew pulley is under threat. How do
:26:25. > :26:31.they engage with people -- the old duopoly is under threat. There are
:26:32. > :26:32.parties such as the Liberal Democrats who have problems of their
:26:33. > :26:36.own as well. Not surprisingly one story
:26:37. > :26:40.dominates most of the front pages. The Independent describes it as
:26:41. > :26:42.The Disunited Kingdom with David Cameron, Ed Miliband and
:26:43. > :26:44.Alex Salmond on the front. The Daily Mail takes
:26:45. > :26:46.a different view. They're getting excited
:26:47. > :26:48.about ?Home Rule for England? with the Prime Minister's pledge
:26:49. > :26:52.of English votes for English laws. Closer to home the Western Mail
:26:53. > :26:54.simply asks, with concerns mounting that we could
:26:55. > :26:58.be sidelined And finally -
:26:59. > :27:03.Scotland's vote doesn't actually make the front page of the Daily
:27:04. > :27:26.Post, but there's coverage inside. Here is the weather. Some parts of
:27:27. > :27:35.Wales were hit by dramatic weather last night. Much quieter tonight.
:27:36. > :27:41.Showers will clear. Sunshine on Sunday. It will turn fresher with
:27:42. > :27:46.colder nights on the way. Still a few showers tonight. Otherwise it is
:27:47. > :27:52.dry. Showers will clear eastwards. Eight miles night. Tomorrow morning
:27:53. > :27:58.the roll cloud will gradually lift. It will brighten up in places. A
:27:59. > :28:02.fair amount of cloud. Across the rest of the UK if you find that he
:28:03. > :28:09.showers likely for Eastern England and East Anglia, light rain and
:28:10. > :28:12.drizzle for the Northeast of England, and Northern Ireland and
:28:13. > :28:20.Scotland side with sunshine. Humid in the South. For as in Wales
:28:21. > :28:29.tomorrow there may be the odd shower. Otherwise it is a tri-
:28:30. > :28:38.story. Some sunshine. Temperatures still Maggie in the South. Tomorrow
:28:39. > :28:41.night if you showers possible in the North, otherwise dry. The cloud
:28:42. > :28:53.seeding after midnight. Calder fresher night. Sunday,
:28:54. > :29:01.high-pressure. Nice day on Sunday. Lovely sunshine. Clouds will tend to
:29:02. > :29:07.build up during the day. It will be pleasantly warm with light winds.
:29:08. > :29:14.Feeling fresher with lower humidity. Sunday the best day of the weekend.
:29:15. > :29:20.More trite weather to come next week. Have a lovely weekend.
:29:21. > :29:32.And the main news gain tonight. Carwyn Jones sees Wales cannot play
:29:33. > :29:38.second fiddle when the next phase of constitutional change is discussed.
:29:39. > :29:45.He also paid tribute to Alex Salmond after he announced he would resign
:29:46. > :29:57.from Scottish First Minister. Much more on our websites tonight.
:29:58. > :30:00.My thanks to all our guests the studio. That is all for now.
:30:01. > :30:02.Goodbye.