14/08/2013

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:00:15. > :00:19.World News. Our top stories. Security forces in Cairo are using

:00:19. > :00:26.bulldozers, tear gas and live rounds to clear camps of pro-Morsi

:00:26. > :00:31.supporters. The Nahda Square protest camp has been broken up and other

:00:31. > :00:36.demonstrations are being dismantled. The number of people are reported to

:00:37. > :00:41.have been killed on both sides. In other stories, Indian authorities

:00:41. > :00:51.say there have been deaths on a submarine which exploded in Mumbai

:00:51. > :01:02.

:01:02. > :01:06.we follow developments in the Egyptian capital Cairo, where

:01:06. > :01:12.security forces have used live ammunition. They have used tear gas

:01:12. > :01:17.and armoured bulldozers to cleared two camps. That is where the

:01:17. > :01:21.supporters of the deposed president Mohamed Morsi have been holding sit

:01:21. > :01:28.in protests for the last two weeks. Clashes between protesters, the

:01:28. > :01:34.police and military continue outside the Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque in the

:01:34. > :01:40.east of Cairo. A Muslim Brotherhood spokesman told BBC News that 600

:01:40. > :01:45.will have been killed. That is a figure we cannot confirm at the

:01:45. > :01:54.moment. The authorities are saying seven people have lost their lives.

:01:54. > :01:57.Demonstrations have also broken out in Alexandra Alexandria and sewers.

:01:57. > :02:05.Armoured vehicles moved in first thing. The Ministry of interior said

:02:05. > :02:12.they wanted to avoid bloodshed. The number of dead and injured is

:02:12. > :02:15.rising. Tear gas has been fired. Tombs of smoke hangover the area.

:02:15. > :02:24.This is Rabaa al-Adawiya, the biggest of two pro-Morsi camps where

:02:24. > :02:27.there have been sit ins the two weeks now. Security forces say

:02:28. > :02:37.actions are ongoing. A small pro-Morsi camp to the West, at Nahda

:02:38. > :02:40.

:02:40. > :02:44.Square, has reportedly been cleared now. Helicopters fly overhead. They

:02:44. > :02:49.have been dropping leaflets telling people to leave. But the Muslim

:02:49. > :02:52.Brotherhood said they also firing direct your people and armoured

:02:52. > :03:00.vehicles are running over protesters. There is no confirmation

:03:00. > :03:04.of this. They say dozens have been killed. The world cannot sit back

:03:04. > :03:09.and watch while innocent men, women and children have been slaughtered.

:03:09. > :03:15.It is six weeks since the pro-Morsi camps have been set up. His

:03:15. > :03:20.supporters say his removal why the army was undemocratic. He was in

:03:20. > :03:26.power for less than a year after people took to the streets to oust

:03:26. > :03:29.Hosni Mubarak. The Interior Ministry said they would act firmly with

:03:29. > :03:34.anyone who acts irresponsibly. There are reports of demonstrations taking

:03:34. > :03:42.place in other Egyptian towns now. As we know, one site has been

:03:42. > :03:45.cleared. The Nahda Square site. The Rabaa al-Adawiya must protest area

:03:45. > :03:50.is the other one. James Reynolds is at the scene there.

:03:50. > :03:57.He sent us this report. The raid has been going on for more than 2.5

:03:57. > :04:00.hours. The security forces have taken control of main roads towards

:04:00. > :04:05.the Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque encampment. I want to show you the

:04:05. > :04:08.target of where they are trying to get to. The encampment where

:04:09. > :04:14.pro-Morsi supporters are, we think they are still holding out, is

:04:15. > :04:20.beyond that black smoke. That black smoke is essentially the burning of

:04:20. > :04:25.tyres which protesters started when the raid began just after dawn. You

:04:25. > :04:31.can still hear explosions. Some of those explosions are tear gas. We

:04:31. > :04:34.felt the sting of tear gas in our eyes. But we have been hearing

:04:34. > :04:41.intermittent and frequent live firing. It is very clear that the

:04:41. > :04:46.security forces are still trying to finish the raid on the pro-Morsi

:04:46. > :04:53.supporters and clear out the area that we cannot see beyond the smoke.

:04:53. > :04:58.It is very difficult to get a view beyond that smoke. With me now is an

:04:58. > :05:01.editor of Arab TV. Perhaps we can broaden the picture out now, in

:05:01. > :05:07.terms of what you have seen happening in the course of the last

:05:07. > :05:17.few hours. Most people would say we would expect it but like this?

:05:17. > :05:17.

:05:18. > :05:23.minutes ago, a top cleric made a phone call with the national channel

:05:23. > :05:30.and he expressed his concerns about violence. At the same time, he said

:05:30. > :05:35.we are not aware this is going to happen. That is naive at best, isn't

:05:35. > :05:40.it? He is saying that because he endorsed the road map when it was

:05:40. > :05:45.announced a few weeks ago in the presence of the Ministry of Defence.

:05:45. > :05:48.He said he does not want to look like he is sidelining with the

:05:48. > :05:57.government because there is a lot of bloodshed in the streets. This is on

:05:57. > :06:02.one side the government spokesman, he also gave a statement saying the

:06:02. > :06:08.road map will not exclude anyone. He is still opening the little door for

:06:08. > :06:14.the Muslim Brotherhood. He is saying that the freedom of speech will

:06:14. > :06:18.began and teed but within the law. It is an easy thing to offer to say

:06:18. > :06:23.we will not exclude you, you can join us, but after an event like

:06:23. > :06:30.this, it would be very difficult for the Muslim Brotherhood to accept,

:06:31. > :06:40.wouldn't it? Definitely. Now there are several clashes in rural areas,

:06:41. > :06:42.

:06:42. > :06:49.in the Suez canal area. There are other reports of cars being burned

:06:49. > :06:55.and Lee Station attacked, a number of churches were attacked where the

:06:55. > :07:00.Muslim Brotherhood are popular -- there are reports of police stations

:07:00. > :07:05.attacked. Some observers think the violent world decrease at some

:07:05. > :07:08.point. But we cannot be sure because the Muslim Brotherhood were prepared

:07:08. > :07:15.for this and they knew something like that could happen. So they

:07:15. > :07:24.needed to face it. From the point of which the clue to place, if we can

:07:25. > :07:28.call it a coup, has this development been inevitable? Yes, because the

:07:28. > :07:34.ceiling that was set between both parties was different. They did not

:07:34. > :07:39.match in any way. The military or the government could not accept

:07:39. > :07:45.Morsi to come back as president of Egypt because this was a complete

:07:45. > :07:52.defeat. On the other hand, the Muslim Brotherhood, they set this

:07:52. > :08:00.line of the minimum they could accept. I think this was the most

:08:00. > :08:04.important problem between them. This problem was faced by Ashton and the

:08:04. > :08:12.US delegation. And all parties who tried to mediate between the

:08:12. > :08:18.belligerence, if you can see that, so it could not go anywhere. Do you

:08:18. > :08:22.think, given what we have seen here, this will be repeated, that we

:08:22. > :08:29.will get more protests cropping up wherever and being broken up in a

:08:29. > :08:35.similar vein? Moments ago, before I came to the studio, I saw through

:08:35. > :08:38.social media streams, some demonstrations marching towards the

:08:39. > :08:44.Rabaa al-Adawiya Square. They are still determined. There are not many

:08:44. > :08:49.but they are still determined to demonstrate and say no and face the

:08:49. > :08:55.operation staged by the police and the army. I suppose that is the

:08:55. > :09:01.case, how many will come out and do that. And how long they can stay.

:09:01. > :09:06.Thank you. The BBC's Hugh Sykes is one of our correspondents in Cairo.

:09:06. > :09:10.He is to the side of the mosque protest camp and has been describing

:09:10. > :09:17.the scene to me. I am a name backstreet which is a

:09:17. > :09:23.six Lane Hwy. There is simply a coil of barbed wire running right across

:09:23. > :09:32.the street from one side to the other. There is some black smoke

:09:32. > :09:36.coming up. There is armoured personnel carriers with soldiers

:09:36. > :09:43.sitting on top of them with machine guns. Behind those vehicles there is

:09:43. > :09:49.a big yellow truck with water cannon on the top of it, getting ready in

:09:49. > :09:58.case this crowd gets too big for them to be able to handle. The crowd

:09:58. > :10:03.on this side of the barbed wire, about two or 300 at the moment. A

:10:03. > :10:09.man is weeping for the end of his democracy. There are several blocks

:10:09. > :10:14.of flats several stories high. Behind that, this huge cloud of

:10:14. > :10:19.black smoke. It is the kind of smoked iron used to seeing caused by

:10:19. > :10:23.burning tyres. I do not know what has caused it but that is likely to

:10:23. > :10:28.be one explanation. It is a considerable cloud of black smoke.

:10:28. > :10:32.As it drifts up into the sky now it is beginning to obscure the sun.

:10:32. > :10:37.That is Hugh Sykes. We can bring you some pictures which have coming to

:10:37. > :10:42.us in the last few moments. It gives you an idea of what the protesters

:10:42. > :10:48.have been up against. There is tear gas being rolled into the protest

:10:48. > :10:53.sites, for them to deal with. James Reynolds, our correspondents, you

:10:53. > :10:58.heard him a few minutes ago, he has said there is live ammunition being

:10:58. > :11:08.used on occasions as well. And don't forget huge bulldozers pouring into

:11:08. > :11:10.

:11:10. > :11:15.the protest sites. With me in the studio is Rosemary

:11:15. > :11:21.Hollis, professor of Middle East studies at city University here in

:11:21. > :11:26.London. Thank you for coming in. Let's broaden this out a little bit.

:11:26. > :11:30.We are talking about what looks like a downtrodden Muslim Brotherhood in

:11:30. > :11:38.Egypt, which is a very big country, but it is not isolated in that

:11:38. > :11:43.regard, is it? No indeed, and if we go back to the revolution itself in

:11:43. > :11:46.2011, the Muslim Brotherhood was not in the forefront initially, but

:11:46. > :11:50.capitalised on a situation which overthrew Hosni Mubarak, who was

:11:50. > :11:55.essentially there enemy, and they were the most organised of all the

:11:55. > :12:00.opponents of the old Mubarak regime. Therefore, they did best in the

:12:00. > :12:06.elections. Morsi himself was running against a former member of

:12:06. > :12:12.Mubarak's previous government. So it was a no-brainer that he would win

:12:12. > :12:15.in some senses. But it has given an opportunity to the Muslim

:12:15. > :12:21.Brotherhood to realise the power that it has been accumulating in

:12:21. > :12:28.Egypt, over many decades. And they are not going quietly. Now that the

:12:28. > :12:31.other Egyptians, those committed to some of the original ideals of the

:12:31. > :12:36.resolution, which do not include brotherhood rule, and of course the

:12:36. > :12:41.military, who do not want a challenge to their authority. It is

:12:41. > :12:46.a showdown over power in Egypt with echoes across the region. There is a

:12:46. > :12:53.ripple effect, you described it as a counterrevolution ripple effect in a

:12:53. > :12:57.way. With the toppling of Morsi you had enthusiasm coming from Saudi

:12:57. > :13:02.Arabia who really regard the Muslim Brotherhood as their main challenger

:13:02. > :13:07.to power in Saudi Arabia itself, in the Gulf region and beyond. I think

:13:07. > :13:10.this is difficult to grasp from the outside because the Saudi

:13:10. > :13:19.authorities are also the ones who are supporting the activities of

:13:19. > :13:23.pretty radical salad fist Muslims, who are in some senses more extreme

:13:23. > :13:28.than the members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Therefore, that tells

:13:28. > :13:34.you how they regard the brotherhood, not as fellow Muslims, not as uphold

:13:34. > :13:40.and is of a Muslim code of conduct, inclusive in politics, but rather

:13:40. > :13:44.than a rival for power. So if people from further afield than the Middle

:13:44. > :13:50.East are looking at these pictures, thinking this is an awful scene, but

:13:51. > :13:53.why should I be bothered, what is the message to them? Opinion is

:13:53. > :13:57.clearly divided over whether it is appropriate for the military to

:13:57. > :14:05.clamp down on the brotherhood, in the name of law and order or a

:14:05. > :14:10.future Egyptian national project and cohesion, and if you regard the

:14:10. > :14:15.military as the last bastions of the state, then you regard the

:14:15. > :14:19.brotherhood as a challenge to law and order. However, the fact that

:14:19. > :14:25.they came to authority through a coup d'etat and toppled an elected

:14:25. > :14:29.president, means they are not on firm territory themselves. So

:14:29. > :14:33.opinion is divided over whether you want authority, you want the rule of

:14:33. > :14:38.law or you want the expression of the people, and all that that might

:14:38. > :14:42.mean. And we have heard that it is a winner takes all situation.

:14:42. > :14:47.Presumably, if you are in control as the military all you have control of

:14:48. > :14:53.the military, then you are the winner, you take all? You will be

:14:53. > :14:57.but there are repercussions as well. These conflicts and showdowns

:14:58. > :15:02.are all interconnected in the sense that the Qataris have been acting

:15:03. > :15:05.some components inclusive of the Muslim Brotherhood, but they are

:15:05. > :15:12.also backers of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Syrian war, but

:15:12. > :15:15.the Saudis are not. They are backing alternative horses in these races.

:15:15. > :15:20.They are also behind the crackdown in Bahrain which is brewing for

:15:20. > :15:27.another round of violence by the government to suppress

:15:27. > :15:37.demonstrators. This revolution, counterrevolutionary mood is

:15:37. > :15:42.ongoing. And the position of the Arabs bring to now, how much of a

:15:42. > :15:45.detrimental step have the last couple of months been, or do you see

:15:45. > :15:52.them as detrimental? Fortunes have been reversed in the last couple of

:15:52. > :15:56.months. Just to make it even more complicated, it is the President of

:15:56. > :16:03.Syria, Assad, who has cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood and other

:16:03. > :16:09.opponents of his regime. However, he enjoys the hostility of almost all

:16:09. > :16:14.his neighbouring government regimes who, otherwise, are supportive of

:16:14. > :16:19.the same elements that he is claiming to suppress. In other

:16:19. > :16:23.words, you need to take case-by-case to understand exactly who is playing

:16:24. > :16:29.with which force, with which agenda and there is no neat and tidy black

:16:29. > :16:39.and white dividing lines in any of the societies or indeed across the

:16:39. > :16:41.

:16:41. > :16:46.region. India, the defence finish has now confirmed a number of crew

:16:46. > :16:51.have been killed in a huge explosion and fire on a submarine, as it was

:16:51. > :16:54.berthed as a Mumbai dockyard. The blast took place after midnight,

:16:54. > :17:00.firefighters spent hours trying to douse the flames. We have been

:17:00. > :17:04.following developments. This is the naval dockyard in Mumbai where the

:17:04. > :17:08.submarine that caught fire late last night was docked at. A little past

:17:08. > :17:14.midnight there was an explosion on it, and that is when the fire broke

:17:14. > :17:17.out. Now, the neighy has said 18 persons were onboard -- navy,

:17:17. > :17:22.onboard at the time of the incident. We don't have exact details of

:17:22. > :17:25.whether the 18 people are safe. But the defence minister has made a

:17:25. > :17:31.statement in deli,seems to be indicating some lives have been

:17:31. > :17:35.lost. He is expected to visit Mumbai late later today. As far as the fire

:17:35. > :17:39.is concerned it was doused four hours after it broke out from

:17:39. > :17:42.firefighters from the Navy and the local administration. The Navy is

:17:42. > :17:47.saying the divers are still continuing to search for any

:17:47. > :17:51.survive, as far as the submarine is concerned, they said it is almost

:17:51. > :17:55.completely submerged with only a small portion visible over the

:17:55. > :17:59.water. In grand scheme of Middle East politics how significant will

:17:59. > :18:03.the release of 26 Palestinian prisoners by Israel prove to be?

:18:03. > :18:09.They were sent back home where they were met by crowds as they returned

:18:09. > :18:16.back to the West Bank and Gaza. It is part of a deal to resume the

:18:16. > :18:21.peace talks. There are meant to be more prisoners to follow.

:18:21. > :18:24.Amid the darkness, scenes of celebration. Most of these

:18:24. > :18:29.Palestinian families had waited 20 years to see their loved ones freed

:18:29. > :18:33.from Israeli jails. A total of 26 men were released, the

:18:33. > :18:38.first group from over 100 long time prisoner, that Israel's agreed to

:18:38. > :18:45.send home in the coming months. TRANSLATION: Thank you to the

:18:45. > :18:51.President. With the support of the Palestinian people, we are released.

:18:51. > :18:55.Nay have been greeted here as heroes of the Palestinian cause, many

:18:55. > :18:59.Israelis view them as terrorist, that is why this prisoner release is

:18:59. > :19:02.adding to the charged atmosphere surrounding the renewal of

:19:02. > :19:07.negotiations. In Israel, relatives of those killed

:19:07. > :19:14.by some of the Palestinians being sent home held protests.

:19:14. > :19:21.Even the Cabinet was divided. Well, I associated against it. The

:19:21. > :19:28.reason why, they are very simple. You enter negotiations, with full

:19:28. > :19:32.reciprocity. If you make gestures or concession, you expect the other

:19:33. > :19:38.side to make something similar. I didn't see the Palestinians doing

:19:38. > :19:43.anything. This week began with the Israeli Government given final

:19:43. > :19:46.approval for new settler homes to be built on occupied lands that the

:19:46. > :19:51.plans want for their future state. As Israeli and Palestinian officials

:19:51. > :20:00.prepare for fresh talks in Jerusalem, both sides are against

:20:00. > :20:04.struggling to deal with deep public scepticism, and mutual mistrust.

:20:05. > :20:11.Let me take you back to the situation in Egypt. Specifically to

:20:11. > :20:16.the capital Cairo, as these are the pictures we have of the scene. This

:20:16. > :20:21.is just peripheral to the I think the Rabaa al-Adawiya mosque area,

:20:21. > :20:25.which is where the second sit in protest site is undersiege according

:20:25. > :20:30.to the Muslim Brotherhood. That is where they are protesting against

:20:30. > :20:34.the removal of form former President Morsi and where the police and

:20:34. > :20:39.military have moved in to clear that site. As for the broader picture, I

:20:39. > :20:44.have been speak speaking to BBC's Middle East editor to get his

:20:44. > :20:48.analysis of the events. I think what we are seeing right now is the

:20:48. > :20:54.consequences of the current violent climate of winner takes all politics

:20:54. > :20:58.in Egypt. A feeling on both sides, that unless they stick to their

:20:58. > :21:02.positions, unless they push as hard as they can against the other side,

:21:02. > :21:09.they potentially risk losing everything. On one side the people

:21:09. > :21:13.supporting the army's move to ohs President Morsi, it was becoming

:21:13. > :21:17.something they didn't want. The Muslim Brotherhood s since 1928 have

:21:17. > :21:21.been trying to take power in Egypt, and they succeeded in an election a

:21:21. > :21:25.year ago and it got taken away from them, they feel unless they stick to

:21:25. > :21:29.what they are doing, then, they won't have a chance in the future,

:21:29. > :21:34.so the middle ground, in terms of trying to get some kind of agreement

:21:34. > :21:39.about a joint way forward here, some national consensus, doesn't really

:21:39. > :21:42.exist at the moment. The sorry truth is, if it is winner

:21:42. > :21:47.takes all, it is people with the hard wear that is going to win,

:21:47. > :21:52.isn't it? It is, but in a sense it isn't. It depends where the Muslim

:21:52. > :21:56.Brotherhood are driven underground, and, as they were for many year,

:21:56. > :22:03.they have had over the years, really severe crackdowns against them, and

:22:03. > :22:08.they have always come back from them. And at a time as well, when

:22:08. > :22:12.Joe haddism is e-- Jihadism is a big part of what is happening in the

:22:12. > :22:16.region, the worry has to be that you can speak to plenty of Muslim

:22:16. > :22:22.Brotherhood supporters who are reasonable, who abhor violence and

:22:22. > :22:26.you can think of religious extremist who might decide to jump on this

:22:26. > :22:30.band wagon and do the kind of things they were doing in the 1990s,

:22:30. > :22:34.involving a lot of violence, bombs and in some cases outright

:22:34. > :22:41.massacres. Who is calling the tune, do you think? Is it the military or

:22:41. > :22:45.the interim President? The military, are in charge. The military are in

:22:45. > :22:49.charge, the general, the head of the military and the minister of

:22:49. > :22:55.defence, he is the man who is calling all the orders in this,

:22:55. > :22:58.there is no question about it. in terms of, I suppose the slightly

:22:58. > :23:02.bigger picture, is there anything, do you think, I suppose we, our

:23:02. > :23:07.first reaction is to think about Washington, is there anything that

:23:07. > :23:12.can be done externally at this stage, to pour water over this?

:23:12. > :23:16.Well, the Americans pay for the Egyptian military, they give them

:23:16. > :23:20.$1.3 billion in aid which is mainly military each year. So nay have a

:23:20. > :23:24.lot of influence with them. I think the Americans will have been saying

:23:24. > :23:28.if you have to do things don't be too violent about it because it will

:23:28. > :23:34.look very very bad. This, if the casualty figures which the Muslim

:23:34. > :23:38.Brotherhood are bringing out, and the BBC we can't confirm them, which

:23:38. > :23:43.are high, are true, then there will be I think, perhaps a backlash

:23:43. > :23:48.against the number of casualty, but what this does, I think, is it

:23:48. > :23:52.doesn't solve the crisis, it deepening it. Middle East editor

:23:52. > :23:58.Jeremy Bowen a short while ago. Back on the streets of Cairo it has not

:23:58. > :24:01.just been at the two protest sites there have been incidents. Cliff

:24:01. > :24:11.Cheney based in the city was in the north of Cairo, he witnessed some

:24:11. > :24:20.clashes up there, as well. Yes, I am currently watch watching

:24:20. > :24:25.from a building, and a short while ago I witness witnessed where the

:24:25. > :24:29.supporters have been camping for about six week, and after the query,

:24:29. > :24:35.I heard that there were problems and I saw smoke over the area, and so, I

:24:35. > :24:42.went to look and what I saw was pro-Morsi supporters marching round

:24:42. > :24:48.a major road, and they were attempting to block a major square

:24:49. > :24:52.near a mosque, setting fire to tyres in the road. I saw them attack a

:24:52. > :25:00.small police van. I didn't see what happened to the driver or passenger,

:25:00. > :25:03.but we saw it burned and we saw something burning in the streets,

:25:03. > :25:09.before police moved in are from the south, from the direction of the

:25:09. > :25:11.university. They began shooting shotguns from their armoured vans as

:25:11. > :25:17.they tersed the neighbourhood. It was clear the riot was just

:25:17. > :25:25.starting. Do you know what they were firing? I don't Noah time of

:25:25. > :25:30.ammunition they were firing. The armoured vans are usually used to

:25:30. > :25:35.deploy teargas, so it is unusual for them to enter the square not firing

:25:35. > :25:40.tea gas, but immediately they used shotguns. Usually here they use

:25:40. > :25:44.rubber coated bullet shot or very small bird shot but it was

:25:44. > :25:48.impossible to tell, until we see if there were injuries reported from

:25:48. > :25:54.the situation. It does seem that yes, a lot of the focus at the

:25:54. > :26:01.moment is on the two protest camps but there are issues elsewhere round

:26:01. > :26:09.the capital? Yes, well the pro-Morsi supporters and the brotherhood

:26:09. > :26:13.threatened to move their protests to a square in Cairo if the sit-ins

:26:13. > :26:17.were cleared. This move, I don't think if it was organise or

:26:17. > :26:22.spontaneous, but there was a convergence of different group

:26:22. > :26:31.groups on that area, attempting to block off a major traffic artery in

:26:31. > :26:34.that neighbourhood of Cairo. You are watching BBC World News, we

:26:35. > :26:39.are following developments for you from Cairo as security forces carry

:26:39. > :26:45.on their attempts to clear supporters of the ousted President