:00:09. > :00:13.Hello and welcome to BBC Look East. In the programme tonight: How can
:00:13. > :00:20.we employ more workers if you do not lend us money? Business leaders
:00:20. > :00:22.in this region tackle the banks over the lack of credit. We cannot
:00:22. > :00:26.invest in machinery or people because we are paying large banking
:00:26. > :00:30.fees for these different forms of finance, where a traditional
:00:30. > :00:34.overdraft would have suited us perfectly well.
:00:34. > :00:38.Sold out in minutes - fans of Ed Sheeran snap up tickets for his
:00:38. > :00:41.summer show. The woman who says her breast
:00:41. > :00:46.implant operation has cast a shadow over her life.
:00:46. > :00:56.And a wise move as conservationists and farmers join forces to save the
:00:56. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:02.owl. Good evening. Senior figures from
:01:02. > :01:06.the banking industry said today they are doing all they can to help
:01:06. > :01:12.kick-start the economy of this region, but small business leaders
:01:12. > :01:16.insist the bankers are not doing enough to ease the squeeze. Today a
:01:16. > :01:19.business summit was hosted by a group of the region's MPs. Their
:01:19. > :01:23.postbags have become a daily reminder of the frustration felt by
:01:23. > :01:30.small businesses unable to obtain small loans and overdrafts to help
:01:30. > :01:34.them expand. Today, the banks faced demands for more help.
:01:34. > :01:39.This is Britannia, a health and safety training company based in
:01:39. > :01:45.Norfolk. Today it was teaching council contractors how to save we
:01:45. > :01:49.remove asbestos. The firm has an annual turnover of �600,000 but on
:01:49. > :01:54.three occasions last year it asked to borrow �20,000 for new equipment,
:01:54. > :02:00.and each time it was turned down. It is extremely disappointing when
:02:00. > :02:09.you are in a recessionary period. We had an opportunity to do things
:02:09. > :02:14.in a matter of weeks where, if we have to finance it ourselves, it
:02:14. > :02:18.could take up to nine months. were many more stories like that at
:02:18. > :02:22.today's meeting. A successful housebuilder claimed that no bank
:02:22. > :02:31.was prepared to back him. The owner of an engineering company said he
:02:31. > :02:36.had not been allowed to increase his overdraft. MPs had persuaded
:02:36. > :02:41.bankers to come and hear this. Business people were telling these
:02:41. > :02:45.senior bankers things they did not know. We depend on this size of
:02:45. > :02:49.company and they are the outfits who are really suffering.
:02:50. > :02:57.Santander said that lending was up 50% in East Anglia last year. HSBC
:02:57. > :03:01.said theirs was up 9%. The banks also said that these were
:03:01. > :03:09.unprecedented times and they had to be careful. In the end was it worth
:03:09. > :03:13.it? If we do not tell them they will never know. If they think they
:03:13. > :03:16.are doing a job -- a good job, if there are more and more people who
:03:16. > :03:20.are unhappy they are not doing a good job. I think they will be more
:03:20. > :03:24.practical about lending to people like myself.
:03:25. > :03:31.Today, the bank has promised to meet twice a year with MPs to
:03:31. > :03:34.discuss how lending was going. It will only be when companies like
:03:34. > :03:38.this one in Thetford find it easier to borrow money that we know this
:03:38. > :03:40.has been a success. After the meeting, I spoke to Peter
:03:40. > :03:45.Ibbetson from the Royal Bank of Scotland and started by asking him
:03:45. > :03:50.about interest rates for business loans, why they were often hide
:03:50. > :03:59.when the base rate was low. I have been in banking for 37 years.
:03:59. > :04:09.Finance for business is cheaper than I have ever seen. The average
:04:09. > :04:12.price that we charge on business loans is 3.4%. Borrowing at the
:04:12. > :04:15.moment is cheap. It has been difficult for businesses over the
:04:15. > :04:18.last couple of years and we have benefited from the base rate going
:04:18. > :04:22.down, but the important message is that finance is cheap from the
:04:22. > :04:25.banks at the moment. One of the things that we hear from businesses
:04:25. > :04:31.is that they do not necessarily get a face-to-face meeting with the
:04:31. > :04:37.bank manager these, based on their credit scoring. Is that the only
:04:37. > :04:40.way that it can go? It is a bit like taking the car to the service
:04:40. > :04:44.station, the first thing they do is put the car on the diagnostic
:04:44. > :04:47.machine and then you get someone to mend the problem. We do use the
:04:48. > :04:51.credit scoring models to help make decisions but, emphatically, the
:04:51. > :04:55.message we try to get over today was that every single decision is
:04:55. > :04:58.made by a person. The more we do that and build a relationship with
:04:58. > :05:02.the customers, the more we can build up the confidence between
:05:02. > :05:06.business and banks. We are trying to move away completely from this
:05:06. > :05:10.message that the computer makes the decision, if the computer says no,
:05:10. > :05:15.that is it. That is not true. We use technology but the decisions
:05:15. > :05:21.are made by people. The problems in the economy are not just in the UK,
:05:21. > :05:26.they are global, but the UK is still one of the hardest places to
:05:26. > :05:29.get finance in Europe. Why is that? We are lending money. What is
:05:29. > :05:32.important is that businesses do understand that we need to get that
:05:32. > :05:37.money back, so we need to make sure that they can repay the borrowing
:05:37. > :05:42.they take from us. We have a responsibility in helping them work
:05:42. > :05:45.through their cashflow forecasts, but we are there to lend. We do
:05:45. > :05:52.need the business is walking with us, though, to make sure they can
:05:52. > :05:56.repay. If we get things wrong more than one time out of 100, we are
:05:56. > :06:04.losing money ourselves and that is not healthy for businesses, the
:06:04. > :06:12.Bank for our shareholders. Thank you very much. -- the bank, or are
:06:12. > :06:18.This will be discussed on our politics programme on Sunday, which
:06:18. > :06:25.is back with a new show, some new faces, and, of course, Etholle
:06:25. > :06:32.George. Andrew Neil will be with us on the
:06:32. > :06:36.national show. In our region we have Sunday Politics East. We will
:06:36. > :06:40.be joined by Conservative MPs and we will be looking at the
:06:40. > :06:44.Government's controversial plans to reform disability allowances. We
:06:44. > :06:48.will also be looking at whether the "big society" can sustain youth
:06:48. > :06:51.services that have suffered from council cuts. We will have all the
:06:51. > :06:55.top political guests from around the region. Join us then.
:06:55. > :06:58.If you're a fan of Ed Sheeran, it has been a frustrating day.
:06:58. > :07:06.Yesterday there was the good news that he was nominated for four
:07:06. > :07:10.awards at the Brits, but Today tickets to see him at Thetford
:07:10. > :07:18.Forest in July sold out in just 20 minutes.
:07:18. > :07:23.Only a few years ago, at Ed Sheeran played tiny venues, now he is
:07:23. > :07:27.selling out thousands of tickets in minutes. His tickets for Thetford
:07:27. > :07:32.Forest completely sold out in 20 minutes this morning. There was
:07:32. > :07:37.fury when some of them appeared online for three times the price
:07:37. > :07:47.shortly afterwards. My daughter wants to go and has been
:07:47. > :07:55.telephoning me from school all day. She will be pleased that I got them.
:07:55. > :08:00.I am glad that I managed to get them. With four Brit nominations,
:08:00. > :08:03.he is up for more awards than at Dell. His music teacher said he
:08:03. > :08:09.always knew he was talented. I do not think I have ever encountered a
:08:10. > :08:18.student with as much energy, commitment and determination. I
:08:18. > :08:22.remember when he was in here nine ordure turn he went to America --
:08:22. > :08:26.in here and nine or ten, he went to America to study with a bit
:08:27. > :08:34.harassed. I think he is very special.
:08:34. > :08:40.It is clear how popular his music is. You do not have to go far to
:08:40. > :08:44.hear one of his songs. Ed will find out which awards he has won at the
:08:44. > :08:48.end of February. It would be great if he got all
:08:48. > :08:51.four, wouldn't it? Later in BBC Look East: What
:08:51. > :08:55.happened to one woman when her breast implant operation went wrong.
:08:55. > :08:57.There is a new collaboration between farmers and
:08:57. > :09:00.conservationists to boost the owl population.
:09:00. > :09:04.And I am here with the weekend forecast. It is finally time to
:09:04. > :09:14.wrap up against the cold as winter returns. Full details coming up
:09:14. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:20.The beds are being provided in Suffolk tonight amid fears that the
:09:20. > :09:23.weekend's cold weather could hit the almost. Forecasters are
:09:23. > :09:29.expecting temperatures to plunge well below zero throughout the
:09:29. > :09:33.weekend. Alex Dunlop is at a shelter in Ipswich now.
:09:33. > :09:39.I have just come in from outside and it is already getting pretty
:09:39. > :09:42.cold. We expect temperatures to reach minus four tonight. This is
:09:42. > :09:46.the genesis Houses Association. Over the weekend, with the help of
:09:46. > :09:51.Ipswich Borough Council, they will have 12 emergency beds to cope with
:09:51. > :09:56.those dealing with the rough weather. The normally only have two.
:09:56. > :10:01.Andrew has just come in. You're hoping to get a bed tonight. What
:10:01. > :10:06.is it like sleeping rough, it must be pretty grim? It is not good for
:10:06. > :10:13.my health and stuff like that. had pneumonia the first time you
:10:13. > :10:20.slept rough, didn't you? Yes, I have had pneumonia, a chest
:10:20. > :10:29.infection, a blood clot on my lung. This is a real lifeline for you, I
:10:29. > :10:33.guess? Yes. Good luck getting a better night. The hostel has 22
:10:34. > :10:41.beds for those who need longer-term support. I met up with one of them,
:10:41. > :10:46.Nick, who has been here for the last six months. This is my home
:10:46. > :10:52.from home. I have a wardrobe and a chest of drawers, a television,
:10:52. > :10:56.fridge, bed. It is all you need, isn't it? If I was not here I would
:10:56. > :11:00.be in jail or homeless. What is it like living rough? It is a
:11:00. > :11:04.nightmare, really bad. You have no money or food, you are always
:11:04. > :11:08.struggling, constantly cold. Basically, you struggle and it is
:11:08. > :11:12.really hard. How has this place turn your life for an? When I was
:11:12. > :11:16.on the street I was drinking and doing drugs. Since I have been here
:11:16. > :11:21.I have stopped drinking and doing drugs. I have stopped breaking the
:11:21. > :11:27.law and sorted myself out. It has helped a lot. We do you see
:11:27. > :11:32.yourself in a year? Having my own place, a decent job, a car and my
:11:32. > :11:35.family around me. That is my main goal in life - to get a decent
:11:35. > :11:41.house or flat and be happy with my family.
:11:41. > :11:44.A pretty positive outlook there From Nick. This is one of the rooms
:11:44. > :11:48.where they have the beds laid out for those coming in tonight. Let us
:11:48. > :11:54.have a chat with the team leader here. I would imagine that
:11:54. > :11:57.somewhere like this is an absolute lifeline. Absolutely. This was set
:11:57. > :12:02.up as an emergency response to people sleeping on the street so
:12:02. > :12:05.that they would have access to warm bedding. People think it is a bed
:12:05. > :12:13.for the night, but for you it is much more than that, you can
:12:13. > :12:18.evaluate long-term needs, cant you? Yes. We have spoken to many of the
:12:18. > :12:22.people who come about potential support needs that they have.
:12:22. > :12:26.of services are being cut back. Briefly, that must put a lot of
:12:26. > :12:31.pressure on you at the sharp end? Yes, it does. I must admit, we have
:12:31. > :12:36.been feeling it quite a lot in the last 12 months. We have managed
:12:36. > :12:41.with a great team here. Without funding from the borough council we
:12:41. > :12:44.would not be able to put on this emergency service. Thank you very
:12:44. > :12:50.much. ITV is to close its production
:12:50. > :12:54.business in Norwich, pitting 35 jobs at risk. ITV Studios at Anglia
:12:54. > :12:58.House makes factual programmes such as well Britain with Ray Mears. It
:12:58. > :13:02.means the only programme that will continue to be made in Norwich by
:13:02. > :13:06.ITV will be Anglia News. A haul of weapons has been found by
:13:06. > :13:10.police searching a river in Norfolk. They were discovered after reports
:13:10. > :13:13.that a shotgun had been thrown into the middle level train at
:13:13. > :13:17.Terrington St John. Officers are now trying to find out if they are
:13:18. > :13:21.linked to any historical crimes. A fisherman from Essex says he is
:13:21. > :13:28.facing financial ruin after breaking the rules on quotas. Paul
:13:28. > :13:34.Gilson, who lives in Leigh-on-Sea, admitted a breach but said that a
:13:34. > :13:38.fine of �400,000 is unfair. For one fishermen here, the future
:13:38. > :13:42.is looking less than bright. Paul Gilson admits 30 breaches of
:13:42. > :13:46.legislation, saying he could not keep on top of the extensive
:13:46. > :13:53.paperwork required. Yes, I have done things wrong, but let's face
:13:53. > :13:57.it, who has not? Nobody has been hurt. I did not muggy anyone in the
:13:57. > :14:04.street, no granny has lost her pension book. Nobody has been hurt
:14:04. > :14:08.with this. My problem is that I speak up for my industry.
:14:08. > :14:12.Prosecuted by the Marine Management Organisation, he now faces almost
:14:12. > :14:19.�400,000 in fines. He says that is unfair and will cost him his house.
:14:19. > :14:22.His case has been picked up by the local MP. Will the Leader of the
:14:22. > :14:26.house allow was to have a debate on issues surrounding quotas for small
:14:26. > :14:31.fishing vessels? These confiscation orders are simply designed to put
:14:31. > :14:36.anybody who has profited from an illegal capture back into the
:14:36. > :14:43.position in which he or she would have been. They are not intended to
:14:44. > :14:46.be a punishment. The majority of the industry is
:14:46. > :14:52.compliant with the rules and regulations that govern it. For
:14:52. > :14:57.those that are not, the governing body says that they will make sure
:14:57. > :15:01.that they will not benefit financially. Paul says that small
:15:01. > :15:05.businesses like his are in danger because of fishing quotas. He
:15:05. > :15:10.believes he may well be part of a dying breed.
:15:10. > :15:12.After a week to forget for Ipswich Town and Paul Jewell, the Tractor
:15:12. > :15:16.Boys are back in action tomorrow. On Wednesday they suffered defeat
:15:16. > :15:26.away at Birmingham, the winner coming in the final seconds.
:15:26. > :15:29.
:15:29. > :15:39.Tomorrow they host Blackpool at Repeat a Middlesbrough by 3-0. In
:15:39. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:43.the previous game, they got beaten, so it is ready up in the air. He
:15:44. > :15:47.has replaced them up with a good team.
:15:47. > :15:50.In the Premier League, Norwich City go to the Midlands. They will be
:15:50. > :15:54.hoping for something good at West Brom who beat them by a single goal
:15:54. > :15:59.at Carrow Road earlier in the season. We are more equipped now
:15:59. > :16:03.and up to speed with how things work with team tactics and the
:16:03. > :16:08.players as well, coming up against players that you have only ever
:16:08. > :16:13.seen on the television. Hopefully, the second time around, you are
:16:13. > :16:16.more wise to what is going on. All this is, we will tell on Saturday.
:16:16. > :16:20.In League One, Colchester United are at home to Scunthorpe and will
:16:20. > :16:30.look to bounce back after defeat to MK Dons. In League Two, Southend
:16:30. > :16:32.
:16:32. > :16:35.could go top if they beat Northampton. Most of the national
:16:35. > :16:37.newspapers this weekend will carry advertisements to reassure women
:16:37. > :16:40.affected by the controversy over breast implants. In London tomorrow,
:16:40. > :16:44.many of the people affected are taking part in a march to demand
:16:44. > :16:47.help. The government insists that most women should have nothing to
:16:47. > :16:50.fear but that hasn't stopped many from seeking medical advice and
:16:50. > :16:54.some Look East viewers have been in touch to tell us about their
:16:54. > :17:04.experience. In a moment we'll be hearing from a woman who spent
:17:04. > :17:08.
:17:09. > :17:14.�4500 having her implants removed. Seven years ago, Francesco took a
:17:14. > :17:18.life-changing decision to have a breast enlargement. I am quite a
:17:18. > :17:25.big frame and I was only and a cup and it just didn't make me feel
:17:25. > :17:28.like a woman. I just felt low about it. When the implants were banned
:17:28. > :17:35.because at the risk of them splitting open, she decided to get
:17:35. > :17:39.them checked. It is worrying. And not sleeping very well, I am very
:17:39. > :17:44.angry, I keep shouting at people close to me because that is my way
:17:44. > :17:49.of trying to relieve my stress. I am trying not to think of it in a
:17:49. > :17:53.bad way because I am just scared that my depression will come back.
:17:53. > :17:55.The cosmetic surgery clinic in London but in the end plants and
:17:55. > :18:01.they say the problems are due to the failure of the government
:18:01. > :18:04.department which regulates implants. They said they are offering to
:18:04. > :18:12.remove and replace the entrance at a discounted price with priority
:18:12. > :18:18.going to those with ruptured implants. Francesca's is now
:18:18. > :18:25.playing -- paying a private consultant. There is no evidence of
:18:25. > :18:29.raptures with you. Some clinics have been refusing to do anything
:18:29. > :18:34.to help people who have had problems with the implants they
:18:34. > :18:39.have placed. She is deciding whether to pay the �4000 it would
:18:39. > :18:44.cost to replace her implants. For now she wants to highlight the fact
:18:44. > :18:47.that it is mums like her, not just models, who are affected.
:18:47. > :18:50.Earlier I spoke to Debbie, a mother of two from Norfolk who is joining
:18:50. > :18:53.the march tomorrow. She had her PIP implants removed two years ago
:18:53. > :19:00.after they ruptured. I asked her how she first knew something was
:19:00. > :19:05.wrong. I discovered a lump in my armpit
:19:05. > :19:14.and I panicked, thinking it was cancer. I went to see a GP and I
:19:14. > :19:20.was referred for a scan and they discovered it was silicon. They are
:19:20. > :19:25.in a bag because they are still looking. Are you OK now? I believe
:19:25. > :19:29.so, although some of the contents are still inside me somewhere. So I
:19:29. > :19:34.don't know long-term whether I will still have symptoms in the future.
:19:34. > :19:38.Two years ago, did you think he has been unlucky or were you aware
:19:38. > :19:44.there were widespread problems? Initially I found it was me who was
:19:45. > :19:49.unlucky. My mother drew me to an article in the newspaper at that
:19:49. > :19:57.time at which mentioned there were some implants but had problems. I
:19:57. > :20:03.initially thought, it is not mine. Some people are not that
:20:03. > :20:08.sympathetic because they say this is a cosmetic procedure, what you
:20:08. > :20:14.say to them? In my instance, it was a personal choice, it was for
:20:14. > :20:18.confidence and self-esteem. I had had a child, I breast-fed and I had
:20:18. > :20:25.no bust whatsoever so for me personally, and for a lot of other
:20:25. > :20:29.ladies as well, we just wanted a normal people. Some of the private
:20:29. > :20:34.companies involved who are refusing to move them free of charge had
:20:34. > :20:39.said it is up to the government because they had kite marks on them
:20:39. > :20:43.and they were mad to be fine. Could you think is to blame? I think it
:20:43. > :20:47.could be equal responsibility at the moment. I believe it was
:20:48. > :20:51.mentioned in at 2000 but there were problems and there was a voluntary
:20:51. > :21:00.recall on this product and it has taken 10 years to have a definite
:21:00. > :21:04.recall. I have also been informed that this item costs �250,000 so
:21:04. > :21:09.private clinics, they probably did know that it was an inferior
:21:09. > :21:19.product. You're going on the march tomorrow, you are doing this for
:21:19. > :21:23.
:21:23. > :21:26.others? Yes and four of me because I had paid to have them removed.
:21:26. > :21:30.Hearing an owl hooting at night is one of the special sounds of the
:21:30. > :21:33.outdoors and seeing them in action can also be amazing but the number
:21:33. > :21:38.of owls in our region has been in decline. One reason - the places
:21:38. > :21:43.they love to live in and feed are disappearing. But now farmers and
:21:43. > :21:52.conservationists are joining forces to help. Our chief reporter is at a
:21:52. > :21:57.nature reserve in Norfolk. I am on the Pensthorpe estate,
:21:57. > :22:06.former home of Springwatch, and we urge and on the farm to meet this
:22:06. > :22:11.little barn owl. She is not exactly a wild bird? No, she is hand-reared
:22:11. > :22:17.that we have had here for seven years. We used her as part of our
:22:17. > :22:20.educational talks. Numbers have been dropping but they are on the
:22:20. > :22:24.rise again and people here are confident that if you farm in a
:22:24. > :22:30.major friendly way, numbers of these fantastic birds can really be
:22:30. > :22:34.on the up. A favourite snack for barn owls,
:22:34. > :22:40.voles, scurrying around in crops. They keep numbers down and their
:22:40. > :22:50.very presence indicates an area rich in wildlife. Here, a rare
:22:50. > :22:50.
:22:50. > :22:55.glimpse of a barn owl being confronted by a kestrel. This farm,
:22:55. > :22:59.one of 50 conservation farms in the country, taking part in the country.
:22:59. > :23:02.Farmers provide a special habitat in return for a special premium on
:23:02. > :23:07.their crops. New nest boxes are also encouraging the population to
:23:07. > :23:11.grow. Nest boxes are critically important in areas where the
:23:11. > :23:14.habitat is present and the birds can feed. If we know we have lots
:23:14. > :23:20.of barn owls that means we are doing something right because all
:23:20. > :23:24.the insects and flowers are all here and the bowls as well so the
:23:24. > :23:33.more habitats we can put in a long our field edges, it really does
:23:33. > :23:38.help these wonderful birds. I among quirky facts - barn owls do not
:23:38. > :23:42.hoot, this creature. One year is higher than the other to hear
:23:43. > :23:47.sounds above and below one flying. They can turn their faces upside
:23:47. > :23:50.down and look behind their backs. This crop of oats may end up in
:23:50. > :23:57.your breakfast cereal but in the meantime thanks to its surroundings,
:23:57. > :24:03.is a happy hunting ground for a beautiful bird.
:24:03. > :24:09.As far as involving farmers and consumers, what is the nub of this?
:24:09. > :24:14.It is making sure the whole food chain is put together so that what
:24:14. > :24:20.we end up with is a sustainable countryside and this aims to do
:24:20. > :24:27.that through projects like this. so it can be successful? Yes, it is
:24:27. > :24:32.financially successful for farmers and consumers pay pennies more in
:24:32. > :24:36.the shops for their food but at the end of the day, they make sure in
:24:36. > :24:43.the long term but we have a countryside that is brimming with
:24:43. > :24:48.biodiversity. On the farm, she is top of the food chain? Yes, she is
:24:48. > :24:52.a good biological indicator of what is going on underneath. If you have
:24:52. > :25:02.barn owls, you have a whole host of one live. She has behaved
:25:02. > :25:08.
:25:08. > :25:18.beautifully! The she can turn her face upside
:25:18. > :25:21.
:25:21. > :25:29.down but wouldn't look at our Visa some pictures of the sun
:25:29. > :25:32.setting last night across the region. It got pretty cold last
:25:32. > :25:40.night, it will get even colder tonight with the widespread frost
:25:40. > :25:46.expected. For most of us, we have had a sunny day. The exception is
:25:46. > :25:49.the north part of Norfolk. One or two light showers so the chance of
:25:49. > :25:55.an isolated sharp in the early part of this evening but for most places,
:25:55. > :26:02.at drive but cold night. Temperatures are expected to get
:26:02. > :26:07.down to well below zero. I should add that it is round the coastal
:26:07. > :26:10.area that you may stay above freezing. The reason for this is
:26:11. > :26:15.high pressure. Tomorrow it is right over the top of us and it will keep
:26:15. > :26:18.the winds light and the skies in a clear but it is going to be a
:26:19. > :26:25.frosty start to the weekend and in fact, the weekend as a whole will
:26:25. > :26:35.bring some pretty cold weather. We should see some sunshine but there
:26:35. > :26:36.
:26:36. > :26:40.is also the risk of frost and fog patches overnight. Once that clears,
:26:40. > :26:50.we should seek a fair bit of sunshine particularly through the
:26:50. > :26:56.central part of the region. Temperatures ranging between four
:26:56. > :27:01.and six Celsius. The winners will be generally light and variable.
:27:01. > :27:05.Once more, actually night with a chance of Frost once again. This is
:27:05. > :27:09.how the outlook ships up for the next five days. A pretty and
:27:09. > :27:14.changing situation, a wintry forecasts with temperatures back to
:27:14. > :27:19.where they should really be at this time of year. If we look at the
:27:19. > :27:27.overnight lows, we can see several nights where we do get below