:00:07. > :00:08.Scotland is about to decide if it wants to be an independent country.
:00:09. > :00:10.We've heard all the arguments north of the border.
:00:11. > :00:15.What will Scotland's big decision mean for its neighbours
:00:16. > :00:25.Good evening and welcome to a special Look North
:00:26. > :00:30.Just two miles from Scotland, but nobody living here has
:00:31. > :00:33.a vote in this month's independence referendum.
:00:34. > :00:41.People do have plenty of questions about how life on this
:00:42. > :00:45.side of the border will change and in the next 40 minutes we will
:00:46. > :00:49.Will there be passport checks at Newcastle
:00:50. > :00:51.and Carlisle railway stations as one government minister has suggested?
:00:52. > :00:54.Will Northeast companies relocate to Scotland to take advantages of
:00:55. > :00:59.Might an independent Scotland offer this part of the world a better deal
:01:00. > :01:03.We've got a panel of yes and no campaigners
:01:04. > :01:06.and an audience from right across Cumbria and the north`east,
:01:07. > :01:11.Plus analysis from Dr Angus Armstrong an expert on the dconomic
:01:12. > :01:16.consequences of independencd both for Scotland and the rest of the UK.
:01:17. > :01:18.You can have your say throughout the show on twitter using
:01:19. > :01:26.For centuries Scotland and Dngland were sworn enemies with the borders
:01:27. > :01:35.The Dukes of Northumberland were very much in the thick of it
:01:36. > :01:39.We arrived in Northumberland in 1309 and spent the next 300 years
:01:40. > :01:44.fighting the Scots and trying to keep the borders safe and pdaceful.
:01:45. > :01:47.My wife and I live in the c`stle and there are many other castles
:01:48. > :01:50.in Northumberland which are a testimony to thd warfare
:01:51. > :01:56.These days castles like Alnwick are visitor attractions,
:01:57. > :02:00.yet there's still a rivalry between our region and Scotland
:02:01. > :02:02.fought not with swords and shields but with jobs and investment.
:02:03. > :02:10.Some believe we're at risk of becoming
:02:11. > :02:13.the poor relations to our Scottish neighbours who enjoy higher public
:02:14. > :02:15.spending as well as the bendfits of free prescriptions, personal
:02:16. > :02:18.If Scotland does vote to become fully independent,
:02:19. > :02:27.It had got to the stage where going to the bathroom
:02:28. > :02:31.and getting back to my chair was getting to be a bit of an adventure,
:02:32. > :02:38.I was looking at probably, H would have thought, weeks of life.
:02:39. > :02:41.Brian's life was saved by a lung transplant, an operation he
:02:42. > :02:46.But as he lives in Northumbdrland close to the border he gets checkups
:02:47. > :02:52.He's a cross`border patient who worries things could change with
:02:53. > :02:58.We don't want people from our side having to travel any
:02:59. > :03:06.If we have independence, oh, we can't do that
:03:07. > :03:11.because you're the far side of the river, that's just shocking.
:03:12. > :03:14.But the NHS is just one of a series of uncertainties that
:03:15. > :03:19.What currency would an independent Scotland use?
:03:20. > :03:21.How will the national debt be divided up
:03:22. > :03:25.And what would happen at a place like this?
:03:26. > :03:28.This bridge across the Tweed divides England and Northumberland
:03:29. > :03:32.down there from Scotland just ahead of me over there.
:03:33. > :03:35.But if there's a yes vote, to get across this bridge would I
:03:36. > :03:44.There has been a lot of scaremongering recently
:03:45. > :03:48.about passports, border controls and about having some sort of border
:03:49. > :03:56.There are a number of challdnges for the north`east in terms
:03:57. > :04:01.Patients who enjoy health provision who live on the English sidd of the
:04:02. > :04:06.border clearly that will be an issue that will need to be worked out
:04:07. > :04:10.While an independent Scotland would cut taxes for big companies,
:04:11. > :04:15.what will it mean for small firms like this Carlisle bakery?
:04:16. > :04:18.I will be very disappointed from a business point of vidw
:04:19. > :04:23.From a business point of view it could only incre`se
:04:24. > :04:29.They haven't given a satisf`ctory answer to the currency issud, which
:04:30. > :04:35.I have staff living in Engl`nd and working in Scotland.
:04:36. > :04:38.I have staff living in Scotland and working in England.
:04:39. > :04:42.So are businesses on our side of the border right to be worried?
:04:43. > :04:45.If the Scots lower corporathon tax down to 3%,
:04:46. > :04:48.that will have a profound ilpact on businesses in the north`dast
:04:49. > :04:51.Air passenger duty, the Scottish government had committed thdmselves
:04:52. > :04:54.They want to abolish it within 3`5 years.
:04:55. > :04:59.That will have a profound ilpact on Newcastle airport.
:05:00. > :05:02.I am your platoon sergeant, number three platoon.
:05:03. > :05:05.But north`east playwright Pdter Mortimer thinks an independdnt
:05:06. > :05:11.Scotland would write its own success story and we might be left behind.
:05:12. > :05:13.Scotland will be unchained if it becomes independent.
:05:14. > :05:18.I think it'll be a more pleasant place to live and I
:05:19. > :05:20.think we'll become the marginalised part of England.
:05:21. > :05:23.I will be quite happy if they move the border down here
:05:24. > :05:31.Ah, we may have to have a referendum down here for that
:05:32. > :05:36.Let's chew some of those issues over with our panel.
:05:37. > :05:39.Christine Grahame, you're an MSP SNP, so we know your
:05:40. > :05:43.But they'll pay the price south of the border.
:05:44. > :05:45.You'll get your freedom and you're going to come after
:05:46. > :05:48.our businesses, after our ahrport, you're going to take it all.
:05:49. > :05:51.I think the important thing about reducing corporation tax and getting
:05:52. > :05:55.rid of the air travel duty hs that you stimulate the economy and create
:05:56. > :06:04.No, there's absolutely nothhng to stop the rest
:06:05. > :06:09.If we're successful in boosting our economy instead of just putting
:06:10. > :06:12.cuts all over the place which are promised by Conservative and Labour
:06:13. > :06:15.if they win the next election, both of them, then we'll stimulate our
:06:16. > :06:17.economy, create work for these young people that you
:06:18. > :06:20.mentioned who don't get jobs on zero hour contracts, with the minimum
:06:21. > :06:25.There's nothing to stop the rest of the UK doing it.
:06:26. > :06:28.In fact, it would stimulate the North of England and give it
:06:29. > :06:32.Craig Johnston, you're an RMT official and work
:06:33. > :06:38.Why are you in favour of Scottish independence?
:06:39. > :06:41.Well, I think both sides of the border get a really rum deal from
:06:42. > :06:46.In terms of where England m`y lose out to Scotland,
:06:47. > :06:49.that's in England's own hands in terms of the legislation and
:06:50. > :06:55.Perhaps we should be following some of the things that
:06:56. > :06:57.the Scottish Parliament havd done like on prescription charges,
:06:58. > :07:02.Those are the sort of things I think politicians need
:07:03. > :07:04.to connect with in the commtnities in the North of England
:07:05. > :07:07.like they've managed to connect with communities in Scotland.
:07:08. > :07:11.Let's turn to the people who don't want to see a break`up of the union.
:07:12. > :07:13.John Stevenson, you're the Conservative MP for Carlisle.
:07:14. > :07:16.You may be in favour of the union, but you can't say we'll pay any
:07:17. > :07:19.price if Scotland became independdnt?
:07:20. > :07:22.I think the union has been ` hugely successful, economic organisation
:07:23. > :07:30.I think there's huge risks for Scotland going independdnt.
:07:31. > :07:33.I think they'll forget they'll then be in competition with Engl`nd and I
:07:34. > :07:35.think you may find that economically not a lot of businesses
:07:36. > :07:37.on the Scottish side decide they want to relocate.
:07:38. > :07:40.A good example is the Royal Bank of Scotland, Standard Life.
:07:41. > :07:42.You've also got to remember back in 2008 it was
:07:43. > :07:46.the fact that we were part of a United Kingdom, a large enthty, that
:07:47. > :07:49.What you're suggesting is good news for your constituents.
:07:50. > :07:51.They might have Scottish businesses coming into Carlhsle
:07:52. > :07:54.No, I think on the border particularly we lose
:07:55. > :07:57.I think the real danger of an independent Scotland hs you
:07:58. > :08:00.start to see businesses not investing on either side
:08:01. > :08:05.Labour often talk about the North being neglected from Westminster.
:08:06. > :08:08.Couldn't Scotland be a powerful partner for the North, an ally?
:08:09. > :08:12.You want to get high`speed rail talk to Scotland.
:08:13. > :08:17.I think what we've been proposing is a combined authority
:08:18. > :08:21.We do want to see further devolution to the area.
:08:22. > :08:27.But the one thing that we'rd not calling for is independence.
:08:28. > :08:31.I think the one thing that's missed out of all of this argument is
:08:32. > :08:33.the problem isn't England and it isn't Scotland.
:08:34. > :08:36.What we've got to face as a United Kingdom is globalisation
:08:37. > :08:39.The globalisation of the economy which is big
:08:40. > :08:43.and we've got to be able to face up to it and we're going to be better
:08:44. > :08:46.By splintering off a population of five million versus
:08:47. > :08:50.We're better off together to face the problems of the world.
:08:51. > :08:53.Christine, let's talk about one of the issues raised in that film.
:08:54. > :08:56.Can you reassure Brian, that patient, has he just bdcome
:08:57. > :09:01.Do you care about what happdns to him and his health service?
:09:02. > :09:05.We've a lot in common with the working folk in England and half
:09:06. > :09:10.But it happens already that in the Borders people come over here
:09:11. > :09:18.The taxpayers are eventuallx feeding it all in.
:09:19. > :09:20.There will be two different sets of taxpayers.
:09:21. > :09:23.We're taxpayers as well, but the Scottish Parliament has
:09:24. > :09:27.a fixed budget and these decisions and choices that were referred to
:09:28. > :09:31.where we've no prescription charges, free personal care for our dlderly.
:09:32. > :09:34.If they need their cardigan buttoned or a tin opened for them at home,
:09:35. > :09:41.Tuition fees, our young people don't pay ?9,0 0.
:09:42. > :09:43.These were choices made in the interest of the Scottish people
:09:44. > :09:46.Can you absolutely guaranted nobody will face a border check
:09:47. > :09:52.I am trying to take this seriously, right?
:09:53. > :09:55.We've a common travel area `t the moment between Eire and the North
:09:56. > :10:01.We're part of that, we'll still be a common travel area.
:10:02. > :10:03.There won't be borders checks and what a daft idea.
:10:04. > :10:09.Put folk in the fields with the sheep?
:10:10. > :10:16.People have accused the no side of scaremongering on borders.
:10:17. > :10:18.Well, on the borders I suspect you're correct.
:10:19. > :10:21.But I think there's a real danger that economically Scotland will
:10:22. > :10:24.deteriorate if they aren't part of the United Kingdom and whll be
:10:25. > :10:29.They presuppose they'll havd a very successful economy
:10:30. > :10:33.and continue to afford all these luxuries as they see it.
:10:34. > :10:37.I think that's a real risk for Scotland.
:10:38. > :10:40.But there's a knock`on effect into this part of the world as wdll.
:10:41. > :10:43.I think it'll be detrimental for Scotland to be independdnt.
:10:44. > :10:45.Excuse me, you called free prescriptions a luxury.
:10:46. > :10:50.Whether people get a pink phll in hospital or a pink pill
:10:51. > :10:53.at home they shouldn't be p`ying for that pink pill.
:10:54. > :10:55.We'll have to leave the deb`te on free prescription charges there
:10:56. > :11:02.People travel to Newcastle because they can't get the prescriptions
:11:03. > :11:05.We'll have to leave that thdre for the moment.
:11:06. > :11:08.Let's hear from the business side of things with the people
:11:09. > :11:12.Yes, plenty of local representatives here in the
:11:13. > :11:15.audience tonight and that doesn t mean people just from England.
:11:16. > :11:19.We've with us two Berwick btsiness owners Gavin Jones and wife Gail.
:11:20. > :11:22.What sort of concerns do you have over this
:11:23. > :11:37.whole debate of independencd for you as a business person?
:11:38. > :11:43.half of our customers are from Scotland. `` we run a retail shop.
:11:44. > :11:47.10% of our online customers are from Scotland. Our biggest concern is
:11:48. > :11:52.currency. Currently, we accdpt the ?20 Scottish note, worth ?20
:11:53. > :11:57.sterling. It cost us nothing more at the bank to exchange it. Wh`t if
:11:58. > :12:02.this was worth ?15 or ?25? That will cost us hassle and the only people
:12:03. > :12:05.that make anything out of that are the banks. For you as a small
:12:06. > :12:11.business, the transaction fdes will be hard to absolve. It will add
:12:12. > :12:20.complexity for no additional revenue. We may even get fewer
:12:21. > :12:25.customers, cos if there are broader issues, where people have to
:12:26. > :12:30.introduce passports, they m`y not come to Berwick to shop. In go to
:12:31. > :12:36.Kelso, on the other side of the border. They say that it will all be
:12:37. > :12:41.fine and we will be able to have the same sort of trade. That wotld be
:12:42. > :12:46.good but do not want to takd that risk. Do they have a Christdl
:12:47. > :12:52.Boeljon? Thank you very much indeed. `` crystal ball. Pamela is from
:12:53. > :12:57.County Durham, who works at the large`scale employer. What concerns
:12:58. > :13:06.do you have? At the moment, you export to 50 countries. We dxport a
:13:07. > :13:11.lot. Scotland makes up 1.5% of our business, so it does not make much
:13:12. > :13:14.difference to us. But it will be a burden to the economy on thd whole,
:13:15. > :13:18.which will have an impact in terms of taxes. Would you be tempted to
:13:19. > :13:25.move north of the border, as a big employer? The SNP would likd to have
:13:26. > :13:30.a 3% cut in corporate tax, which could be tempting for a big company.
:13:31. > :13:33.There are lots of attractivd schemes around Europe. We are very
:13:34. > :13:38.passionate about where we are in 20 Durham. But the government here are
:13:39. > :13:47.doing a lot of good things `s well. There is a lot of benefit, research
:13:48. > :13:52.and development tax relief, and a relatively low tax rate anyway. We
:13:53. > :13:58.would not be moving. If I c`n go to Angus Armstrong, Dr Angus Armstrong,
:13:59. > :14:02.I want you to tell us your post Good evening. I am the Director of
:14:03. > :14:06.macro economic research Abbdy National Institute of econolic and
:14:07. > :14:11.social research search, an independent research body. `` social
:14:12. > :14:19.research. Tell us, what happens when an international border to trade is
:14:20. > :14:24.created? In general terms, the Borders tends to reduce the amount
:14:25. > :14:27.of trade between two countrhes. If you look at Canada in the United
:14:28. > :14:31.States, the amount of trade between those countries, the statistical
:14:32. > :14:37.studies have found that it hs less than predicted, given the dhstance.
:14:38. > :14:42.Although there are is no war or physical border, it is things like
:14:43. > :14:49.differences in Revelation which over time start to a road. Historically,
:14:50. > :14:54.we have found across the world, where you have two different
:14:55. > :14:59.political states, there is less cross`border trade of an otherwise.
:15:00. > :15:03.Jeremy Middleton is a north`east businessman. We heard from Pamela a
:15:04. > :15:07.moment ago. For companies of her size, this is not a problem because
:15:08. > :15:11.it is just exporting to another country. And they can absorb that.
:15:12. > :15:18.Some companies will be able to. But I'll worry about jobs more than
:15:19. > :15:21.anything else. If there are different tax rates, differdnt
:15:22. > :15:24.levels of VAT, that could bd different employment costs `nd a
:15:25. > :15:28.different exchange rates. That creates uncertainty. If you create
:15:29. > :15:32.uncertainty, you will have less investment. There is less investment
:15:33. > :15:36.now because of uncertainty `nd will be even unless afterwards, because
:15:37. > :15:41.of the complexity of this. H think it is worth saying that if, as Alex
:15:42. > :15:46.Salmond has suggested, Scotland is wanting to take an aggressive
:15:47. > :15:49.competitive position to try to attract businesses, the rest of the
:15:50. > :15:53.UK is not going to sit therd and do nothing. We will react becatse those
:15:54. > :15:55.of us who live in the North of England are going to say, wd must
:15:56. > :16:00.have similar economic powers to be have similar economic powers to be
:16:01. > :16:04.able to compensate. We will get onto that later. Apart from the lawyers
:16:05. > :16:09.and the politicians, they are the two winners out of this. Th`nk you
:16:10. > :16:13.very much, Jeremy. At the moment, the polls suggest that therd will be
:16:14. > :16:17.a no vote in the referendum but if that happens, it does not mdan there
:16:18. > :16:21.will be no change. Far from it. The bull in the north`east may be
:16:22. > :16:27.impacted upon even further. Mark Denton has been finding out.
:16:28. > :16:33.My hip and my pelvis is bre`king up. On top of that, I have to p`y this
:16:34. > :16:37.bedroom tax. It costs ?650 ` year. The government calls it a spare room
:16:38. > :16:42.subsidy at critics college to the bedroom tax. Either way, Peter, who
:16:43. > :16:47.is disabled, is paying it. From next year, even if they say no to
:16:48. > :16:52.independence, people in Scotland will not have to. I am disgtsted
:16:53. > :16:55.about it because it is like one person is paying it and another
:16:56. > :16:59.person is not. It will not be a United Kingdom at all because if it
:17:00. > :17:09.was united, it would be one price. It must break eight code of human
:17:10. > :17:15.rights. `` a code. Goodness knows what he would have made of ht. The
:17:16. > :17:19.great political reformer, E`rl Grey, looking down on Newcastle. He
:17:20. > :17:22.widened the voting franchisd, hitting the first tentative steps
:17:23. > :17:28.towards making Britain more equal. But it seems that some of us are
:17:29. > :17:34.still more equal than others. Public spending in the north`east hs ? ,490
:17:35. > :17:40.per head. It is ?10,152 per head in Scotland. While the spending gap
:17:41. > :17:44.remains, a raft of new powers are on their way to Scotland come dven if
:17:45. > :17:50.there is a no vote. Scrapping the bedroom tax is one of the examples,
:17:51. > :17:55.but there are others. New t`xes over welfare, new income tax powdrs. In
:17:56. > :17:59.no vote does not mean no ch`nge Recently, all the main political
:18:00. > :18:05.parties have committed themselves to getting Scotland more powers if it
:18:06. > :18:10.is a no vote. Variations in income tax, being able to set land duty,
:18:11. > :18:15.stamp duty. One view would be that it is a no vote, devolution max is
:18:16. > :18:22.the best possible option for Scotland. Looking at it frol another
:18:23. > :18:26.perspective, it might be thd worst option for the north`east and
:18:27. > :18:29.Cumbria. On top of that, Scotland also has lower unemployment than the
:18:30. > :18:33.north`east. But this leading businessmen does not think we are
:18:34. > :18:38.getting a raw deal. Bernie Shepherd is going to transform 160 acres of
:18:39. > :18:42.land near Dunfermline into houses and shops, one of many cross`border
:18:43. > :18:46.projects for his firm going ahead regardless of the referendul. We
:18:47. > :18:53.will still be doing business with them and still looking to bd friends
:18:54. > :19:01.with Scotland. We are near Ddinburgh and lock nut in, put it that way. ``
:19:02. > :19:04.near Edinburgh and London. The Duke of Northumberland surveys is a
:19:05. > :19:11.states, including part of Scotland. But he does not seed two undqual
:19:12. > :19:14.places but one area with a shared history. Personally, I'd cross the
:19:15. > :19:21.border practically everyday from one part of the estate to anothdr. And I
:19:22. > :19:24.see no difference between somebody living on one side and the other. I
:19:25. > :19:30.think it is a remarkably integrated area. But any form of bound`ry
:19:31. > :19:37.creates difficulty. I think it has worked pretty well for a long time.
:19:38. > :19:41.If it ain't broke, don't fix it But even if there is a no vote, some
:19:42. > :19:45.fear that the region has a growing problem that simply will not go
:19:46. > :19:51.away. The economic gap that we Scotland and us. The gap has to be
:19:52. > :19:57.narrowed. `` between Scotland and us. The powers that Scotland make
:19:58. > :20:00.have to be replicated in thd North of England because there is a very
:20:01. > :20:06.serious risk that the north`east and Cumbria would get left behind. Let's
:20:07. > :20:11.put this to the panel. Phil Wilson, the political parties are f`lling
:20:12. > :20:16.over themselves. The balancd is just going to get worse between these
:20:17. > :20:19.North of England and Scotland. It could possibly happen. We h`ve
:20:20. > :20:26.spoken about air passenger duty and corporation tax. If you are going to
:20:27. > :20:31.cut taxes, how do you pay for welfare benefits? But it wotld be
:20:32. > :20:35.nice to have the freedom to do it. Scotland will get these freddoms. A
:20:36. > :20:39.sickly, what I was disappointed with was when the redevelopment `gency
:20:40. > :20:43.benefit. I do not want to dwell on benefit. I do not want to dwell on
:20:44. > :20:47.that, I want to dwell on thd future. Will accept that more powers are
:20:48. > :20:55.coming to Scotland but thosd powers are not coming here. That's right. I
:20:56. > :20:59.have raised the idea around variations regionally in passenger
:21:00. > :21:05.duty. It does not just affect Newcastle airport, but Durh`m
:21:06. > :21:08.airport as well. These are things we should be looking at. Whethdr you
:21:09. > :21:13.need independence to achievd it I do not think so. Can we call it the
:21:14. > :21:16.UK any more when there are such bass differences? You cannot pay certain
:21:17. > :21:21.taxes north of the border and you get free prescriptions, is ht a UK?
:21:22. > :21:26.I think the key question is, do you believe in devolution. I've
:21:27. > :21:30.fundamentally believe in devolution, so yes, further powers to Scotland,
:21:31. > :21:34.I am more than happy with that. However, I think the time h`s come
:21:35. > :21:37.where England has two also look at devolution. I think there is a
:21:38. > :21:41.substantial deficit they ard and believe that both parties in
:21:42. > :21:45.parliament have to start looking at the counties and cities of Dngland
:21:46. > :21:50.and fiscal devolution to thdm. You do not disagree with that, Craig
:21:51. > :21:54.Johnson. How does an independent Scotland helped you achieve that? It
:21:55. > :21:59.was interesting point made the regional development agencids. I
:22:00. > :22:02.think that we need a devolvdd government for the North of England
:22:03. > :22:07.is to balance out what has happened north of the border. To givd us a
:22:08. > :22:11.priority, also, instead of London and the south`east. When we talk
:22:12. > :22:13.about the United Kingdom, wd need strategic investment and pl`nning in
:22:14. > :22:19.this area and we have not got it because we do not have the regional
:22:20. > :22:24.assembly. Christian Graham, the Northern tax players seem to get a
:22:25. > :22:28.raw deal. Some people might say good riddance to Scotland. Hn the
:22:29. > :22:32.last 30 years, Scotland has contributed more to the UK budget
:22:33. > :22:35.and we have had back, withott oil revenue. Let me deal with their stop
:22:36. > :22:40.Mike but we are getting less per head! But the revolution thhng is
:22:41. > :22:44.news to me. Up in Scotland, there is only one question on the ballot
:22:45. > :22:47.paper. Should Scotland be an independent country? Devolution is
:22:48. > :22:51.not on the ballot paper bec`use David Cameron did not want ht on
:22:52. > :22:58.there. What I say to the people in the North of England, but wdre of
:22:59. > :23:06.false promises. `` be wary of false promises. It is not on the ballot
:23:07. > :23:11.paper, devolution. Excuse md. And it was not on the ballot paper in the
:23:12. > :23:15.North of England. In 1979, on the eve of the poll for a Scotthsh
:23:16. > :23:20.we will discuss more of these issues we will discuss more of these issues
:23:21. > :23:23.in a moment. Strong views on whether we are getting a fair deal. But
:23:24. > :23:31.people will notice the diffdrences most of all on the border. @nd there
:23:32. > :23:33.are plenty of those people hn the audience.
:23:34. > :23:36.I think it is a good point to ask for a show of hands from evdrybody
:23:37. > :23:42.here. Those of us who live hn England, do you feel aggrieved or
:23:43. > :23:51.disadvantaged compared to your Scottish neighbours? Show your hands
:23:52. > :23:54.if you feel that way. OK. And if anybody has a personal experience,
:23:55. > :24:02.perhaps of the tuition fee situation, so care, prescription
:24:03. > :24:06.charges? `` personal care. Xes, the girl on the side. I am from Wales
:24:07. > :24:12.and there should be going to university next year. Bandah will
:24:13. > :24:16.have to pay ?9,000 more than those that live two miles away. I have
:24:17. > :24:22.friends that go to the Acaddmy, that do not have to pay that. And they
:24:23. > :24:26.will not get in debt becausd of where they live. It is
:24:27. > :24:30.geographically ridiculous. Ht is one issue affecting the younger part of
:24:31. > :24:36.our audience. Anybody here who feels strongly about ascription charges? I
:24:37. > :24:43.have experienced a difference in attitudes towards people who used to
:24:44. > :24:46.go across the border to the General Hospital from Berwick. It h`s become
:24:47. > :24:53.more difficult to access those facilities. Especially dent`l care,
:24:54. > :24:58.which is poorly served in Bdrwick. If there is a border crossing, I
:24:59. > :25:04.think it would be worse than it is now. Thank you for those ophnions.
:25:05. > :25:08.Turning to Alexis, the headteacher of Berwick Academy. Picking up on a
:25:09. > :25:11.previous point, you are in `n awkward position because yotr pupils
:25:12. > :25:15.come from both sides of the border. You have to advise them on which
:25:16. > :25:19.university to go to. Maybe ht is difficult for you, because some will
:25:20. > :25:23.come out with debt and others will not. We do not have a huge number of
:25:24. > :25:28.students who come across thd border, about 5%. It is probably sililar in
:25:29. > :25:33.the other direction. A lot of our catchment is to the south. But what
:25:34. > :25:38.was noticeable this year, when students were applying for
:25:39. > :25:41.university, actually, it was harder for our Scottish students to find a
:25:42. > :25:48.place at a Scottish univershty because there were limited numbers
:25:49. > :25:49.for Scottish tunes. So when we came to the clearing system, one of the
:25:50. > :25:54.things that we picked up quhte things that we picked up quhte
:25:55. > :25:58.quickly was that the courses were closed for clearing for Scottish
:25:59. > :26:06.tunes but Scottish universities were still accepting English tunds. ``
:26:07. > :26:11.Scottish students. And they are accepting English tunes on lower
:26:12. > :26:13.grades. You can see that thdre is an economic reason why the Scottish
:26:14. > :26:18.universities are keen to have fee`paying students. Fee`paxing
:26:19. > :26:23.students from England are ctrrently subsidising the education sxstem
:26:24. > :26:29.that is free to Scottish sttdents. Whether that will continue hn a free
:26:30. > :26:34.Scotland only remains to be seen. One of many questions. Phil Johnson
:26:35. > :26:36.is the editor of the Berwick Advertiser. You have a parthcular
:26:37. > :26:43.feel for the strength of fedling in the town. I think there is `
:26:44. > :26:48.perception in Berwick at thd moment that the town gets a raw de`l. I am
:26:49. > :26:53.not so sure that that is because we are so close to Scotland. I think it
:26:54. > :26:56.is more to do with the powers that we have in Northumberland at the
:26:57. > :27:01.moment. Berwick had its own Borough Council until five years ago and
:27:02. > :27:03.that has now moved down to Northumberland. A lot of thd
:27:04. > :27:09.decisions made which affect Berwick were made down in Morpeth, `nd there
:27:10. > :27:18.is a feeling in Berwick that we get a raw deal as a result. APPLAUSE.
:27:19. > :27:24.If I can bring in Joe Perry from the Green Party. She is a Cumbrhan ``
:27:25. > :27:31.she has a Cumbrian perspecthve. You are a fan of the way that Scotland
:27:32. > :27:36.hands handles many things two yes. Absolutely. They have a progressive
:27:37. > :27:38.policy on simple things likd banning fluoride from the water and a good
:27:39. > :27:50.dental health care system for children. Not wanting to spdnd money
:27:51. > :27:54.on Trident, they have a mord peaceable foreign policy, not that
:27:55. > :28:00.they are in charge, but thex have a more peaceable perspective. And can
:28:01. > :28:03.see many reasons why people in Cumbria and in the northern parts of
:28:04. > :28:09.Northumberland would want of the border moved further south hf
:28:10. > :28:15.Scotland get more powers. The issue is that we are very badly treated by
:28:16. > :28:19.the government in London. Wd are. And next door to you, we have a
:28:20. > :28:25.local businessman. Brian, if Scotland is doing things so well,
:28:26. > :28:28.getting things right, do yot think that the border should be moved
:28:29. > :28:33.south? Would you like to be included in Scotland? It is a very dhfficult
:28:34. > :28:37.question because I have dond a bit of research from my customers, and I
:28:38. > :28:40.find that people would like to be in Scotland if it was going to stay in
:28:41. > :28:44.the UK, and if it becomes independent, they would rather stay
:28:45. > :28:48.in Berwick. With all of the publicity that Berwick has had
:28:49. > :28:52.would like to carry that on and try would like to carry that on and try
:28:53. > :28:57.to get Berwick on the map, because we have been ignored by Westminster.
:28:58. > :29:00.I had an interview recently with Alan Beith and asked him wh`t he had
:29:01. > :29:04.done with the town since he has been in power, and he struggles to
:29:05. > :29:11.actually come up with anythhng. I feel that we are out on a lhmb. That
:29:12. > :29:14.is a good local voice. I want to bring Dr Angus Armstrong in again.
:29:15. > :29:19.You have looked at the economic side of things. Too many English people,
:29:20. > :29:24.it seems that Scotland has got it good. Can they afford to deliver on
:29:25. > :29:29.these benefits? Scotland has had higher public spending than the rest
:29:30. > :29:32.of the UK for many years so they have had their advantage. The big
:29:33. > :29:38.question is if it votes yes, then it is going to have to balance its own
:29:39. > :29:43.books. Most independent resdarchers, the IFS, fiscal policy Scotland
:29:44. > :29:51.they estimated that Scotland will be running a deficit, so spendhng more
:29:52. > :29:55.than the tax take, by the end of independence. They have to balance
:29:56. > :29:58.the books, so the interesting questions have yet to be answered.
:29:59. > :30:01.And think we need to that to the SNP.
:30:02. > :30:05.Christine Grahame, the land of milk and honey at the moment, but once
:30:06. > :30:09.independence comes, it will not be so good. Who said we abolished the
:30:10. > :30:13.bedroom tax? It has not been abolished. We did not have the power
:30:14. > :30:17.to do it but the Scottish government set up a fund to pay over to the
:30:18. > :30:24.local authorities of people would not have to keep their housds. But
:30:25. > :30:28.that man says that you would not be able to afford it. Scotland can
:30:29. > :30:35.afford it, even with the violent gas. Lagasse, ?20 billion is
:30:36. > :30:39.predicted over the next 20 xears. That is a lot sloshing around. I
:30:40. > :30:44.know there is a lot of disptte. There is not. Even Sir Ian Wood in
:30:45. > :30:46.2012 said that there was ?26 billion. He said he was not being
:30:47. > :30:50.political. Let's leave it there So, the Scottish Parliament looks
:30:51. > :30:53.as if it'll get more power inevitably, regardless
:30:54. > :30:54.of the results of the referdndum. You might see that
:30:55. > :30:57.as an opportunity, But is it time
:30:58. > :31:01.for the north`east and Cumbria to In 2004, the north`east had
:31:02. > :31:05.its own referendum. It was offered a regional
:31:06. > :31:07.assembly by John Prescott. The voters told him
:31:08. > :31:09.where to get off. But the man who chaired
:31:10. > :31:14.the yes campaign believes the time is right for regional government
:31:15. > :31:17.and the need is even strongdr now. I think in a sense many
:31:18. > :31:20.of the issues the referendul on a north`east assembly was
:31:21. > :31:23.intended to address are still here. The north`east is a region with
:31:24. > :31:26.a relatively weak voice It's still a region with social
:31:27. > :31:32.and economic conditions which are So I think that ten years
:31:33. > :31:40.on we're no further forward in terms In some key respects we've
:31:41. > :31:44.probably taken steps backwards. That seems worrying,
:31:45. > :31:46.a step backward. Let's go to Jeremy Middleton,
:31:47. > :31:49.north`east businessman. Was it a mistake ten years `go that
:31:50. > :31:55.we rejected a regional asselbly No, I think the mistake was to
:31:56. > :31:59.focus on the politics of it. The vast majority
:32:00. > :32:01.of people aren't interested in new, The issue is what the infludnce
:32:02. > :32:09.of the north`east is Do we have enough investment
:32:10. > :32:15.in our infrastructure? Are we in a position to attract
:32:16. > :32:18.inward investors and so on? I hope Scotland stays in thd
:32:19. > :32:24.United Kingdom. I think we need to work with
:32:25. > :32:26.Scotland so that together we're trying to
:32:27. > :32:29.attract business into the north`east What we don't want to do is start
:32:30. > :32:34.competing with each other and creating barriers to tr`de
:32:35. > :32:36.because, frankly, There's no demand from the people
:32:37. > :32:41.of the north`east for it. Hilton Dawson, the North East Party,
:32:42. > :32:44.you'd be in favour But do people want new
:32:45. > :32:49.political systems? We've talked for a while about
:32:50. > :32:53.how good things are in Scotland The reasons why things are better in
:32:54. > :32:57.Scotland, why they have mord money, why they have better policids,
:32:58. > :33:02.is because of politics, so let's What we do need in this part
:33:03. > :33:09.of the world is equality, we need investment in public
:33:10. > :33:12.services, we need investment to bring new businesses, new jobs here,
:33:13. > :33:17.and we need democracy. However, in favour of a reghonal
:33:18. > :33:25.assembly 78% didn't want it. And about that same proporthon
:33:26. > :33:27.in Wales in 1979 said exactly 18 years later the people of Wales
:33:28. > :33:33.changed their minds. It's perfectly open
:33:34. > :33:36.for the people in the north`east of England to change their linds,
:33:37. > :33:40.particularly hearing the arguments we've had today and seeing
:33:41. > :33:43.the example of what devoluthon has There's nobody here arguing
:33:44. > :33:50.for less devolution. We need to hear from Jill Pdrry
:33:51. > :33:53.because from the Cumbrian point You could have the base
:33:54. > :34:01.in Newcastle, Liverpool, who knows? Absolutely, wherever the base is
:34:02. > :34:04.it's going to be in a big chty and But I think the thing
:34:05. > :34:09.a regional government of sole kind would do, both the politici`ns
:34:10. > :34:12.on the no side of the debatd were talking about globalisation,
:34:13. > :34:16.building a strong global economy. Globalisation doesn't help
:34:17. > :34:19.the ordinary person. What the ordinary people benefit
:34:20. > :34:25.from is strong local economhes. With local businesses,
:34:26. > :34:30.local jobs and local investlent That's what we could have if we had
:34:31. > :34:34.a regional government electdd by proportional representathon
:34:35. > :34:38.fighting for local people. Angus Armstrong,
:34:39. > :34:40.obviously the call for regional government is getting louder because
:34:41. > :34:43.of this whole Scottish debate. Is it realistic that we
:34:44. > :34:48.can expect more powers? I think the whole Scottish debate
:34:49. > :34:50.has opened up this question. For the last 300 years
:34:51. > :34:55.the UK has been the most centralised Scotland has spending which is
:34:56. > :35:02.devolved, but not the incomd side. It doesn't raise its own taxes,
:35:03. > :35:05.or not very much. For the rest
:35:06. > :35:07.of the UK the big question hs can you have true devolution if Scotland
:35:08. > :35:10.says no without actually having Scotland is only 10% of the
:35:11. > :35:19.United Kingdom. You need to deal with
:35:20. > :35:22.the other 90% and I think what we're hearing tonight is much mord
:35:23. > :35:24.of an expression that there's a Let's hear from our yes
:35:25. > :35:29.and no campaigners on the p`nel Craig Johnston, I know you're
:35:30. > :35:32.a big fan of the idea of regional That's not going to make
:35:33. > :35:37.any difference, is it? I think what they want are
:35:38. > :35:39.politicians who are going I think the problem that we have,
:35:40. > :35:46.I hope Scotland vote yes, they take the opportunity to take control
:35:47. > :35:50.of their own affairs, but whatever happens on the 18th of Septdmber
:35:51. > :35:56.the reality of it is the North of England, the North East, North West,
:35:57. > :36:00.Yorkshire as well, is to cole together and start arguing
:36:01. > :36:02.for proper, devolved, regional government, democratically dlected
:36:03. > :36:05.with real powers, not the phg in a poke assembly that was offered to us
:36:06. > :36:10.by John Prescott in the north`east. John Stevenson, you're not
:36:11. > :36:12.in favour of regional government but if you dribble a few powers to
:36:13. > :36:15.local councils, all these local enterprise partnerships, th`t's not
:36:16. > :36:18.going to make the differencd to I'm for fundamental reform
:36:19. > :36:23.in England in local governmdnt. For example in Cumbria we h`ve seven
:36:24. > :36:25.councils, 400 councillors But Cumbria County Council hsn't
:36:26. > :36:32.going to be able to compete with the No, but you can have devolution
:36:33. > :36:36.in England in a different w`y. You've got to see cities
:36:37. > :36:38.and counties in England, so the big cities will get certain
:36:39. > :36:41.powers because they've cert`in issues and requirements, and
:36:42. > :36:43.the counties in a similar f`shion. I sit on the local government select
:36:44. > :36:46.committee and we've been looking You've not only got to devolve
:36:47. > :36:50.spending powers, you've also got I think it's one
:36:51. > :36:55.of the big problems with thd present Scottish Parliamentary systdm in
:36:56. > :36:58.that they've got to have both the tax`raising powers as well `s the
:36:59. > :37:01.spending powers and align the two. You're also
:37:02. > :37:04.against regional government, but It could be, but you could `rgue it
:37:05. > :37:12.was a democratic deficit, btt the big thing for people out there
:37:13. > :37:16.who have to go to work everx day is You can't wish away globalisation
:37:17. > :37:21.and I think the 35,000 people in the north`east who work for Nissan
:37:22. > :37:23.would say that globalisation does The hundreds and thousands of people
:37:24. > :37:29.who are going to work for Hhtachi on my patch would say there ard some
:37:30. > :37:32.good things about globalisation Nobody is wishing that away,
:37:33. > :37:38.but we need structures. The one thing that happened in that
:37:39. > :37:41.referendum about ten years `go when they voted against the regional
:37:42. > :37:44.assembly, they voted for a tnity Hitachi, the big economic
:37:45. > :37:53.development we've got them now speaking up for the whole of County
:37:54. > :37:58.Durham, it has done a great deal. We can't even get a station
:37:59. > :38:00.at Gilsland. That's the reality
:38:01. > :38:02.of what we're looking at. No`one is batting for the North
:38:03. > :38:06.of England. People believe there's a deficit
:38:07. > :38:09.here and what we need is solebody Christine Grahame, if you gdt
:38:10. > :38:16.your wish, by the end of thd month you could be on the way to becoming
:38:17. > :38:20.a foreigner in this country. I hope not, I am going to
:38:21. > :38:23.my son's wedding four days before What will be your parting mdssage
:38:24. > :38:28.to the North of England? I think independence, whatever
:38:29. > :38:32.happens, will be the liberation It's to look at how London`centric
:38:33. > :38:39.policies penalise everybody the further they are away
:38:40. > :38:42.from that centre whether it's interest rates, overheated house
:38:43. > :38:48.prices, jobs, whatever it is. We've so much
:38:49. > :38:51.in common with the North of England As you'll find out, you can't
:38:52. > :38:58.always pay for these things. Well,
:38:59. > :39:01.you don't need to have Triddnt for a start, spend billions on Trhdent and
:39:02. > :39:04.go into illegal wars in Irap and cause a bigger mess in international
:39:05. > :39:07.affairs than you ever did bdfore. Look at the way money has
:39:08. > :39:10.been spent and it could havd That's it from us,
:39:11. > :39:16.but don't forget you can continue There will be more
:39:17. > :39:23.on this whole debate on BBC local I think it's clear none of ts knows
:39:24. > :39:32.how the referendum is going to go. As we've heard tonight whichever
:39:33. > :39:34.way, it's going to have a big impact on us here in the
:39:35. > :39:38.North East and Cumbria. From Richard and myself
:39:39. > :39:41.and everybody here at the M`ltings in Berwick,
:39:42. > :39:46.thanks for watching and good night.