:00:02. > :00:06.Good evening. Welcome to North West Tonight. I'm Ranvir Singh, in
:00:06. > :00:11.Manchester city centre. "We know who you are and we are coming to
:00:11. > :00:14.get you," - the police warning to vandals who trashed our cities. We
:00:14. > :00:24.will be hearing from the people determined to get our cities back
:00:24. > :00:26.
:00:26. > :00:29.on their feet and bring the folks So how will they do that? I've been
:00:29. > :00:37.finding out, and asking the police whether they were properly prepared
:00:37. > :00:40.for last night's trouble here in And away from the burning cars and
:00:40. > :00:43.smashed windows, I'm live in Liverpool One, where even here the
:00:43. > :00:50.economic cost is being felt, as shops close early and stock is
:00:50. > :00:56.cleared out as a precaution. And I direct appeal for calm from
:00:56. > :00:59.I'm Gordon Burns. In the studio tonight, we'll be examining the
:00:59. > :01:02.reasons for the disorder and asking how so many young people got
:01:02. > :01:12.involved, and we'll be looking at the role social media is playing in
:01:12. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:20.helping to bring the violence to an There is only one story on North
:01:20. > :01:25.West Tonight and that is the violence that spread across our
:01:26. > :01:33.region last night. Ranvir, as you saw, is in the city centre of
:01:33. > :01:37.It all seems to be running pretty normally now but last night battles
:01:37. > :01:41.with the police, looting, mindless violence and hundreds of arrests
:01:41. > :01:45.were the kind of scenes that shocked people across the North
:01:45. > :01:50.West. Today police are saying a note to the criminals are and they
:01:50. > :01:55.will be brought to justice. I chafe -- our chief reporter is on
:01:55. > :01:59.Deansgate. There is an increased level of police, isn't there?
:01:59. > :02:03.If you look around Deansgate tonight you can see there are more
:02:03. > :02:07.police up and down the street. The area did experience its share of
:02:07. > :02:12.problems last night. These are not just Greater Manchester Police
:02:12. > :02:17.officers, they are from other forces, too. Greater Manchester
:02:17. > :02:20.police officers sent some officers down to London to help last night
:02:20. > :02:26.but they say that did not hamper their ability to deal with problems
:02:27. > :02:32.here. The message today is it his business is normal. Tonight, though,
:02:32. > :02:42.it has to be said that some people are not taking any chances. Some
:02:42. > :02:45.
:02:46. > :02:51.shopkeepers are boarding up their It was the night when the normal
:02:51. > :02:55.rules of morality were put on hold in parts of Greater Manchester.
:02:55. > :02:59.were outnumbered last night. It was hard to see criminals attacking
:02:59. > :03:03.premises that we could just not get the numbers do in order to stop it
:03:03. > :03:06.spreading. This was Salford, a city where, for a few terrifying hours,
:03:06. > :03:11.anarchy swept the streets. There was honour even among thieves as
:03:11. > :03:13.they tussled over their spoils. In Manchester, they helped themselves
:03:13. > :03:23.to whatever they fancied from city centre stores, brazenly and
:03:23. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:28.apparently without any fear of the consequences. They were trying
:03:28. > :03:34.shoes on on the steps in front of us to see if they had got the right
:03:34. > :03:38.size. They were going into the back and taking bags and filling them up.
:03:38. > :03:41.Aspects of life I never thought in my wildest dreams I would say.
:03:41. > :03:49.today, the police promised there would be consequences for these
:03:49. > :03:55.people. We have your image, we have your face, we have your acts of
:03:55. > :03:59.wanton criminality on film. We are coming for you from today. No
:03:59. > :04:02.matter how long it takes. We will arrest those people responsible.
:04:02. > :04:05.The trouble escalated quickly into scenes which shocked even the most
:04:05. > :04:14.seasoned of police officers. But were those officers properly
:04:14. > :04:18.prepared? We knew there was a potential and lots of different
:04:18. > :04:21.areas of Greater Manchester. What shocked and surprised us was the
:04:21. > :04:24.level of violence, particularly in Salford, so that was a different
:04:24. > :04:27.situation which we had to give priority to. On Merseyside, too,
:04:28. > :04:30.they have been counting the cost of another night of senseless violence
:04:30. > :04:36.that brought fear and destruction to the streets of Liverpool and
:04:36. > :04:40.Birkenhead. Fire crews found themselves in the firing line.
:04:40. > :04:44.fact that we or any other members of the emergency services come
:04:44. > :04:53.under attack is appalling. I cannot understand the logic of the people
:04:53. > :04:56.that would attack us, or indeed anyone, for that matter. The tender
:04:56. > :05:03.years of some of those involved has been almost as shocking as the acts
:05:03. > :05:07.they carried out. There were 15 people arrested last night, some of
:05:07. > :05:14.them as young as 14 years old. That is something the parents can do
:05:14. > :05:16.something about. A sense of outrage is shared by the majority of law-
:05:16. > :05:26.abiding citizens in Greater Manchester and Merseyside. Their
:05:26. > :05:30.main concern now, what can be done As we have already said, the police
:05:30. > :05:35.are having more officers on the street. They have been rounding
:05:35. > :05:39.people up all day. Two people have been jailed, for ten weeks and 16
:05:39. > :05:43.wickets respectively for their parts in the trouble. The police
:05:43. > :05:48.say they are the first of many. Manchester magistrates' court is
:05:48. > :05:52.opening from 7pm for a series of special sittings, to deal with more
:05:52. > :05:57.than 100 people. An 18-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of
:05:57. > :06:07.arson. That follows the fire at the Selfridges Straw -- Selfridges
:06:07. > :06:11.
:06:11. > :06:13.Interesting details about the number of arrests. The youngest
:06:13. > :06:17.person arrested last night by Greater Manchester Police was a 15
:06:17. > :06:20.year-old boy. But it was not just youths out on the street. The
:06:20. > :06:25.oldest person arrested was a 58 year-old man. Greater Manchester
:06:25. > :06:33.Fire Service also had a difficult night. They responded to 351
:06:33. > :06:43.incidents. That is five times the usual number. Across Liverpool, six
:06:43. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:48.fire engines were attacked and 11 properties were set on fire. And
:06:48. > :06:53.although Cheshire saw a little disorder on the streets, eight
:06:53. > :06:56.arrests were made for inciting disorder on social networking sites.
:06:56. > :07:05.Well, here to talk about the situation in Manchester is council
:07:05. > :07:09.leader Richard Leese. We have seen that there are more police on the
:07:09. > :07:13.street. Are you confident they will write some of the mistakes of last
:07:14. > :07:18.night? We have twice as many police on the streets tonight. That should
:07:18. > :07:22.be enough to contain any potential disorder this evening. But this
:07:22. > :07:26.will have to be kept up for a period of time. We need to get the
:07:26. > :07:31.disorder under control and move on to making sure that those people
:07:31. > :07:35.who have been responsible are taken to caught and punished. And you
:07:35. > :07:39.have announced this afternoon that any child or family seem to be
:07:39. > :07:43.involved in any of this criminality runs the risk of losing their
:07:43. > :07:48.council home. That is a very tough measures. Is it helpful in the long
:07:48. > :07:53.run? I think it is. We have to make sure parents to take responsibility
:07:53. > :07:59.for their children. We do have this power that where a child is guilty
:07:59. > :08:02.of antisocial behaviour, we can use eviction as a tool. The people of
:08:02. > :08:06.Manchester, to have their confidence restored, will need to
:08:06. > :08:11.see very tough measures taken against these people. And in terms
:08:11. > :08:16.of the financial cost to the city, do you know? It will run into
:08:16. > :08:19.millions of pounds. We know that there rather a lot of independent
:08:19. > :08:23.businesses at risk and today I have asked the Government to make sure
:08:23. > :08:29.they provide support to those independent businesses. Has it made
:08:29. > :08:32.you think again? I know it is still quite early on but has it made you
:08:32. > :08:36.think again about horror perhaps you interact with some of these
:08:36. > :08:42.young people, who clearly could not care less about the City that they
:08:42. > :08:46.were born and raised and educated in? First of all, we have to
:08:46. > :08:50.restore public order. Then we need to get confidence back. Then we
:08:50. > :08:54.need a proper postmortem. I think every public organisation should
:08:54. > :08:58.look at what they have done and what they could do better. Do you
:08:58. > :09:03.feel any responsibility at all for this or are you putting it down to
:09:03. > :09:06.parenting and things like that? This is criminal behaviour and the
:09:06. > :09:10.criminals have to take responsibility for bat behaviour.
:09:10. > :09:14.We saw this morning the sort of Manchester that most people want
:09:14. > :09:18.and I think collectively we have to take that responsibility to create
:09:18. > :09:23.that Manchester. And we will be seeing the good work that some
:09:23. > :09:28.young people have done. But you cannot necessarily a stereotype --
:09:28. > :09:34.you cannot stereotyped the people involved. Someone treaty to say,
:09:34. > :09:41.speechless, my cousin, from a comfortable background, pictured
:09:41. > :09:45.rioting. But the violence was not just in Salford and -- in
:09:45. > :09:55.Manchester, it was also in Salford. We have been speaking to some of
:09:55. > :09:56.
:09:56. > :09:59.Images that will live long in the memory. Here BBC Radio Manchester's
:09:59. > :10:06.radio car is attacked. It was indiscriminate, violent and
:10:06. > :10:10.frightening. On the streets today, the question is, who would do such
:10:10. > :10:15.things and why? This teenager admits he was on the streets of
:10:15. > :10:18.Salford last night, watching but not involved in the disturbances.
:10:18. > :10:24.The kids are rioting because there is nothing to do.
:10:24. > :10:27.REPORTER: There was a lot of looting going on, why? Windows are
:10:27. > :10:37.smashed in shops and people are going to see the opportunity to go
:10:37. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:42.in and grab something. Is there any excuse for it? No, no. Jake the
:10:42. > :10:45.street capture these images, a mechanical digger being stolen from
:10:45. > :10:50.a construction yard in Salford at the height of yesterday's
:10:50. > :10:55.disturbances. They started driving the did get out of the construction
:10:55. > :11:01.yard and up the road at 30mph. These children could have killed
:11:01. > :11:05.anyone. They could have wrecked thousands of pounds worth of cars.
:11:05. > :11:10.I did not expected at all. other witnesses are too frightened
:11:10. > :11:14.to be identified. This student in Salford watch a supermarket trashed.
:11:14. > :11:19.When I saw people from my own residential block looting and being
:11:19. > :11:23.involved in violence, I was totally stunned. I could not believe all
:11:23. > :11:27.the people I have met here Libya who see normal common eyes, happy
:11:27. > :11:37.people. Obviously they saw the opportunity and decided to be
:11:37. > :11:41.
:11:41. > :11:51.criminals. The hope today is that More from Ranvir, too, towards the
:11:51. > :11:59.
:11:59. > :12:02.Now, we have heard much over the last few days about a class of the
:12:02. > :12:05.so-called feral youth. But today a different sort of young person came
:12:05. > :12:11.out onto the streets of the North West. Their aim, simply to help.
:12:11. > :12:15.Kate Simms reports now on how they, and others, joined the big clean up.
:12:15. > :12:21.A difficult start to the working day for many businesses in Salford.
:12:21. > :12:31.The shop is destroyed. But recruits were on hand to help. We need to
:12:31. > :12:35.help. There is no need for it. are willing to fight the yobs.
:12:35. > :12:38.Manchester, hundreds turned up in the rain after an overnight
:12:38. > :12:44.campaign on social media, armed with pressures and backs to clean
:12:44. > :12:50.up. Everybody today came together and they all knew what had to be
:12:50. > :12:54.done and it has been done. It is to show that we are not all like that.
:12:54. > :13:00.We are not going round looting. Some of us actually care about the
:13:00. > :13:05.City. And then a bad businesses that had been attacked. These
:13:05. > :13:09.people are normally out fitting lifts. Today we are helping
:13:09. > :13:13.Manchester clean up. People have been coming in to work, walking
:13:13. > :13:19.through a bomb site... Event the visiting Salford and P Hazel Blears
:13:19. > :13:22.was given her clear orders. Get a brush and get stuck in. Manchester
:13:22. > :13:28.City Council have worked hard through the early hours to make
:13:28. > :13:31.sure it was business as usual here. Because of events overnight, the
:13:31. > :13:34.morning after the night before is not quite as bad as everyone feared,
:13:34. > :13:38.but although there is not as much for the volunteers to do, they say
:13:38. > :13:44.they are keen to come right anyway and show their support. And anyone
:13:44. > :13:49.showing support was given a clear message. Why would you attack?
:13:49. > :13:56.do they attack London, Brannigan...? Because the corrupt
:13:56. > :14:05.police is at they know -- need to be shown who the boss of England is.
:14:05. > :14:09.There are people taking dip a stand So just what is the economic impact
:14:09. > :14:12.of all this? Nationally, this is the figure, �100 million. In the
:14:12. > :14:18.last hour and a half, Manchester's Arndale Centre closed its doors
:14:18. > :14:21.early. Liverpool One also shut up shop as a precaution. Countless
:14:21. > :14:31.smaller businesses have also taken a blow. Our economics correspondent
:14:31. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:37.Jayne Barrett is at Liverpool One We are well away from the burnt
:14:37. > :14:42.cars and smashed windows of just a few miles away but even here, the
:14:42. > :14:47.economic cost is being felt. Some shops here should as early as 4pm
:14:47. > :14:51.yesterday, all by six, but the rest of the week they are going to close
:14:51. > :14:58.early at 6:00pm. Liverpool Chamber of Commerce said the cost so far
:14:58. > :15:06.just two businesses is �2.5 million. Let's hear some of their stories.
:15:06. > :15:09.In Wavertree, a much-loved local pub trashed. Along the road, a
:15:09. > :15:14.newsagents targeted. Small businesses, but businesses which
:15:14. > :15:23.mean a lot to a community where investment is in short supply.
:15:23. > :15:30.try to make an investment but, I don't know... Further along, this
:15:30. > :15:34.man shows me his swannery arm, injured in a fight. -- Swarland arm.
:15:34. > :15:43.Outside they are making new shutters but he does not know when
:15:43. > :15:49.he will re-open. What can I do? I do not know. In Birkenhead, more
:15:49. > :15:56.businesses targeted. The cost mounting across the region. In
:15:56. > :16:00.Piccadilly, an archaic closed by the damage. These kids have is a
:16:00. > :16:06.report eight or nine people out of work until we get this right. --
:16:06. > :16:14.easily port. Tonight again the Arndale Centre close early. They
:16:14. > :16:19.say they are taking every step to stay ahead of the looters. We have
:16:19. > :16:24.seen them targeting certain shops in the Birmingham, etc. We have
:16:24. > :16:28.taken the stock out of the buildings and close early.
:16:28. > :16:34.tonight, Greater Manchester Police urge businesses not to close. Life
:16:34. > :16:43.must go on. It is a sentiment shared by one customer and this
:16:43. > :16:47.Liverpool launderette. Workmen arrived to do fix the windows this
:16:47. > :16:52.morning and found a woman inside doing her washing. She climbed
:16:52. > :16:57.through the broken glass just to do her washing. Keep calm and carry on,
:16:57. > :17:03.the message there. Take a look through this Apple shop window.
:17:03. > :17:07.They are clearing away the shop as a precaution. Who, if anyone, will
:17:07. > :17:11.those looters listen to? Perhaps Liverpool or Everton Football Club.
:17:11. > :17:16.Tonight the two clubs have issued a statement calling for calm. Kenny
:17:16. > :17:19.Dalglish says, please, stop this now. The city has an excellent
:17:19. > :17:23.reputation. And Steven Gerrard, this city has always stood together
:17:23. > :17:33.and supported each other. If you are thinking of going out tonight
:17:33. > :17:35.
:17:35. > :17:41.and causing trouble, please, please, There is playing -- social media is
:17:41. > :17:46.playing a big part in the riots. Police Ding sides like Facebook,
:17:46. > :17:51.Twitter, are being used to bring rioters together. But they are also
:17:51. > :17:57.helping with the clean-up and forming a part of the police
:17:57. > :18:07.These are the pictures of people who Greater Manchester Police are
:18:07. > :18:15.They are on their flicker website website for anyone to see. They are
:18:15. > :18:19.Updating it all the time. Also on the police's Facebook site, people
:18:19. > :18:24.have been uploading their own pictures and videos. Already some
:18:24. > :18:28.people have spotted someone they know. Our police forces have also
:18:28. > :18:31.been very vocal on Twitter, with warnings to stay away from certain
:18:31. > :18:35.areas. Another interesting development is the kind of offences
:18:35. > :18:39.police are beginning to charge people with. In Lancashire, one man
:18:39. > :18:43.has been charged with using Facebook to try to encourage
:18:43. > :18:50.looting and in Cheshire, eight people were arrested on suspicion
:18:50. > :18:55.of inciting public disorder through social media. Twitter is also being
:18:55. > :19:01.used to help clean up. Last night almost as soon as the problems
:19:01. > :19:05.began, a Twitter group is arranging a clean-up. Someone got in touch
:19:05. > :19:09.with me and said, you are from Manchester and clearly care about
:19:09. > :19:18.the community. Do you want to take over this Twitter account? It has
:19:18. > :19:22.just taken on from there -- taken off from there. Also on Twitter,
:19:22. > :19:27.plenty of Sadique centre shops saying they were open for business.
:19:27. > :19:35.The role that social media is playing in these breads is only
:19:35. > :19:38.likely to increase. -- in these Ever since the violence broke out,
:19:38. > :19:42.people have been expressing their shock at the age of some of the
:19:42. > :19:47.vandals involved. It is that children as young as ten were
:19:47. > :19:53.looting from the shops. But why I used to live here damaging their
:19:53. > :20:00.own cities? Here to try to make some sense of the door is Father
:20:00. > :20:07.Phil Sumner and Sinead Andrews from the use mentoring charity, Reclaim.
:20:07. > :20:11.Sinead, why are so many young people destroying their own city?
:20:11. > :20:14.don't think many young people had brought about the consequences on
:20:14. > :20:19.the city. It was more like following the fashion. It is all
:20:19. > :20:23.over London and they thought they could do it here. Peer pressure, a
:20:23. > :20:30.lot of older people going back they went and followed, thinking it was
:20:30. > :20:33.all right for them to do it said they would do it, too. We also, of
:20:33. > :20:39.course, saw the decent young people who turned out in force today to
:20:39. > :20:42.clear up. Yes, we did, which was a very good show that we were not
:20:43. > :20:47.giving up. It shows a different side. Was it because they were
:20:47. > :20:50.ashamed of what are the young people had done? Yes, all over
:20:50. > :20:56.Facebook last night were people's messages showing how a shame they
:20:56. > :21:01.were. It was disgraceful, what I saw on TV going on in our city. We
:21:01. > :21:06.have to live here and deal with it. If we destroy our city, what is in
:21:06. > :21:10.it for us? We are always talking about cuts but what else will go
:21:10. > :21:17.back into the city if we destroy it? Father Sumner, you saw the Moss
:21:17. > :21:21.Side riots first hand at that time. Just compare the two, from what you
:21:21. > :21:26.saw last night and what happened then. 30 years ago, there were many
:21:26. > :21:31.people on the streets in Princess wrote in Moss Side. When the riot
:21:31. > :21:36.took place, it took place in -- for a whole cocktail of reasons. They
:21:36. > :21:42.are opportunists they, too, people going into the shops and bringing
:21:42. > :21:49.out stuff that they have been asked to bring out on order. I suspect
:21:49. > :21:53.that even now, the initial spark from the event in Tottenham, with
:21:53. > :22:00.the young man killed, and after that it has just been a series
:22:00. > :22:05.opportunists. Are they the same reasons that were there then in my
:22:05. > :22:08.side? You cannot say they were not there then and this does not excuse
:22:08. > :22:11.in any way the behaviour of young people. People have to take
:22:11. > :22:17.responsibility for what they have done it at the same time, there is
:22:17. > :22:23.a Poulter now, that is in nurturing individualism, commercialism,
:22:23. > :22:28.wanting more and more and more. Wanting the adrenalin rush that
:22:28. > :22:31.some people like solicitors have been getting involved in a football
:22:31. > :22:39.hooliganism in the past. Now it is a different adrenaline rush that
:22:39. > :22:43.people want to be involved in. interview I heard on BBC Radio 5
:22:43. > :22:48.Live this morning to, one of the youths involved was saying, come on,
:22:48. > :22:52.what do we see? We see bankers, as he said, putting their hands in the
:22:52. > :22:57.tills, getting themselves rich, and still despite having brilliant the
:22:57. > :23:00.country still making big bonuses. We saw politicians putting their
:23:00. > :23:05.hands in the till and getting as much as they could in expenses. Now
:23:05. > :23:11.we are trying to get as much as we can, and people lecture us on
:23:11. > :23:14.morality? Is very bad example set? There is. There is a lot of social
:23:15. > :23:23.inequality but two wrongs do not make a right and fall has to do
:23:23. > :23:28.this in our own city, it is -- it stereotypes us. I went out into the
:23:28. > :23:31.city and got really good responses from people previously, doing a
:23:31. > :23:41.project. Today people did not want to speak to us. They did not want
:23:41. > :23:47.
:23:47. > :23:52.We forecast the weather today at the start of the week. We knew the
:23:52. > :23:56.rain would just keep on coming. The pictures reinforce what you know
:23:56. > :24:00.already. The Met Office do still have a yellow warning. It is just
:24:00. > :24:05.to really let people in parts of Cumbria and Lancashire know that
:24:05. > :24:08.the brain will be fairly heavy as we go through the night. We have
:24:08. > :24:14.already had significant totals. If you want to know exactly what that
:24:14. > :24:17.means, go to the Met Office website. Here is the picture today. In the
:24:17. > :24:20.more south-western corners of the region, it was not too bad
:24:20. > :24:26.initially but once the rain arrived, it just sat right over the top of
:24:26. > :24:31.us and the real telling thing of the covers. The green and blue mean
:24:31. > :24:35.it the rain has been very heavy. Waiting in the wings, going through
:24:35. > :24:39.parts of Merseyside and Cheshire, there is still some quite heavy
:24:39. > :24:43.rain. It will keep on coming as we go through this evening and through
:24:43. > :24:47.the night tonight. This is our lives skyline from Manchester. It
:24:47. > :24:52.is very grey and damp. It just continues to come and go as the
:24:52. > :24:56.night goes on. Every now and then you will have a break in the rain.
:24:56. > :25:00.It will be dry for 20 minutes to half an hour. But the rain keeps on
:25:00. > :25:03.coming and that is not great news. South-westerly breeze has been
:25:03. > :25:10.strong ball through the day and continues to be strong through the
:25:10. > :25:16.night tonight. It is a good direction. But for tomorrow, it is
:25:16. > :25:22.more of the same but not as bad. It is grey, overcast and damp when you
:25:22. > :25:26.first get up but damp rather than pouring down. Visibility is not
:25:26. > :25:30.brilliant on high ground and then maybe misty fog. Because it is so
:25:30. > :25:34.damp and humid the motorways will have a bit of spray. Visibility
:25:34. > :25:41.will be an issue first thing in the morning for quite a few hours.
:25:41. > :25:51.Through the day, the picture gets others are slightly better. -- ever
:25:51. > :25:53.
:25:53. > :25:57.We will be here after the 10pm news. And there are your local radio
:25:57. > :26:01.stations. Radio Manchester stayed on air all last night to keep
:26:02. > :26:08.people up-to-date with what was going on. Finally tonight, we will
:26:08. > :26:16.go back to Ranvir in Manchester city centre. We are hearing there
:26:16. > :26:19.are some skirmishes in Salford tonight, is that right? Yes, there
:26:19. > :26:25.have been around Salford precinct, where things kicked off last night,
:26:25. > :26:30.in the same area, bricks and stones have been thrown to around 20
:26:30. > :26:35.police officers with riot shields. A gang of around 100 youths, I am
:26:35. > :26:41.told, are trying to get into a place called the Money shop. These
:26:41. > :26:44.are skirmishes that have dispersed and congregated again. We will keep
:26:44. > :26:49.abreast of that. Here, perhaps the weather is playing a part in
:26:49. > :26:52.dampening down rioters. Let's hope it stays that way across the North
:26:52. > :27:02.West. Let's take a look at some of the shocking images from last night.
:27:02. > :27:07.They have nothing to protest against. There is nothing, no sense
:27:07. > :27:10.of injustice, and no spark which has led to this. This has been
:27:10. > :27:20.senseless violence and criminality on a scale that I have never seen
:27:20. > :27:23.
:27:23. > :27:28.before. This rioting and this and violence... When we were attacked,
:27:28. > :27:34.and there were no police whatsoever here. When you walk around and see
:27:34. > :27:39.the scale of damage, unbelievable. We want to see the maximum number