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This programme contains very strong language. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:06 | |
All too often, every female rock musician | 0:00:06 | 0:00:08 | |
has had to answer a predictable question - | 0:00:08 | 0:00:11 | |
"What's it like being a girl in a band?" | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
Rock and roll is supposed to be | 0:00:14 | 0:00:15 | |
a place where you can be what you want to be, | 0:00:15 | 0:00:17 | |
but history suggests that rock bands | 0:00:17 | 0:00:19 | |
are not equal-opportunities employers. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:22 | |
For many, the sight of a girl shredding a guitar | 0:00:22 | 0:00:24 | |
or laying into the drums is still a bit of a novelty. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:27 | |
Since the birth of the rock-and-roll band, | 0:00:28 | 0:00:30 | |
boys have spent hours tinkering on their Les Pauls | 0:00:30 | 0:00:33 | |
while girls are merely the object of the songs, | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
or so the story goes. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:38 | |
As soon as women stepped across the line and formed their own bands, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
they were given labels - | 0:00:42 | 0:00:43 | |
"The rock chick". | 0:00:43 | 0:00:45 | |
"The girl band". | 0:00:45 | 0:00:47 | |
One half of the rock-and-roll couple. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:49 | |
And sometimes just "the other one". | 0:00:49 | 0:00:52 | |
I wanted to meet the women who crossed the line, formed bands | 0:00:52 | 0:00:55 | |
and tried to go their own way. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:57 | |
If you want to do something, just do it. Don't talk about it. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:01 | |
And don't criticise other women. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
If... If they want to go out, you know, | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
and swing on a wrecking ball naked, why not? | 0:01:06 | 0:01:10 | |
They related to the world on their own terms. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
We don't want to stand how men stand, with our legs wide open, | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
our guitar right down there | 0:01:16 | 0:01:17 | |
like we've got great big, heavy bollocks hanging down! | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
They followed the magnetic pull of the rock-and-roll lifestyle. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
"You're going to meet the biggest rock stars. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
"You're going to play the biggest venues | 0:01:25 | 0:01:28 | |
"and tour the world!" | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
I was like, "Wow! I've got to tell my mom!" | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
# A lot of people telling me what to do... # | 0:01:34 | 0:01:37 | |
There is the predictable. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:39 | |
It always used to be, "Get your tits out!" basically. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:41 | |
A photographer was going, "If you open your legs a bit | 0:01:41 | 0:01:43 | |
"and kind of le..." And I was like... | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
-"Fanny! Fanny! Fanny!" -SHE LAUGHS | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
Imagine our surprise! I was like, "Oh, they love us!" | 0:01:49 | 0:01:53 | |
These are the untold stories from half a century on rock's front line. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:59 | |
I want to discover, | 0:01:59 | 0:02:00 | |
has it always been different for the girl in a band? | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
MUSIC: Rebel Girl by Bikini Girl | 0:02:04 | 0:02:05 | |
# ..Rebel girl | 0:02:05 | 0:02:07 | |
# Rebel girl, you are the queen of my world... # | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
Before the modern concept of the rock-and-roll band | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
took shape in the late 1950s, | 0:02:18 | 0:02:19 | |
you could try and join a jazz band, | 0:02:19 | 0:02:22 | |
but playing in smoky LA clubs was considered no place for a lady. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
I'm here to meet someone who muscled in on that world | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
and became an exception to the rule. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:30 | |
This is the story of the invisible woman. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:34 | |
The girl who ended up the number one called player in the session band | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
that played on some of the biggest records of the 20th century. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
Was it unusual for a girl to be playing guitar? | 0:02:42 | 0:02:45 | |
Well, you know what? I didn't think of it. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:47 | |
I started to hear this bebop jazz on the radio | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
and I said, "That's what I want to play." | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
JAZZY GUITAR SOLO | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
The teenage Carol cut her teeth as a jazz guitarist | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
in clubs around Los Angeles, and being the only girl in the band | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
meant she often had to stand her ground. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
There's always one guy in every band that's going to test you. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
You have to get the whole band to laugh at THEM, you know, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:14 | |
in other words, repeat back to them what they say, you know, | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
like this one guy that said, | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
"Oh, you're..." I mean... | 0:03:20 | 0:03:22 | |
"You're a dumb cunt, Carol." | 0:03:22 | 0:03:24 | |
I said, "Well, you're a dumb prick, too." | 0:03:24 | 0:03:27 | |
Undeterred by the catcalling, | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
Carol carried on playing around LA's jazz clubs | 0:03:29 | 0:03:31 | |
until she caught the ear of record producer Bumps Blackwell, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
who asked her to play guitar on Summertime | 0:03:35 | 0:03:37 | |
for the legendary Sam Cooke. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:38 | |
# Summertime | 0:03:38 | 0:03:42 | |
# And the living is easy... # | 0:03:43 | 0:03:50 | |
MUSIC: La Bamba by Richie Valens | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
It wasn't long before Richie Valens came calling. | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
# Para bailar La Bamba... # | 0:03:56 | 0:03:58 | |
SHE PLAYS ALONG TO LA BAMBA | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
And as the jazz clubs around LA began to close, | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
Carol begin making money from the new music of the time, rock and roll, | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
playing guitar for artists like Duane Eddy and Chris Montez. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
# Hey baby, won't you take a chance? | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
# Say that you'll let me have this dance | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
# Well, let's dance... # | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
"One dollar, two dollar, three dollar... I love rock and roll!" | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
SHE LAUGHS | 0:04:23 | 0:04:25 | |
"Five dollar, six dollar... Jazz, what's that?" | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
# ..Any old dance that you wanna do | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
# But let's dance... # | 0:04:30 | 0:04:31 | |
The spirit of it was | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
how to create a hit record with a simple little line. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
See, that was the challenge. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:39 | |
And was that a challenge that was given to you from the start? | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
Oh, yeah, yeah, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:43 | |
because if you didn't create a hit line, | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
you wouldn't... You probably wouldn't work next year. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
# She's a rebel and you'll never be any good... # | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
Carol was now in demand as a bass player | 0:04:53 | 0:04:55 | |
and next up, she entered the Wall Of Sound, working on songs | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
with Phil Spector and some of his main draws, | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
like The Righteous Brothers. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:03 | |
Tell me about meeting and working with Phil Spector. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
We all thought he was kind of weird... | 0:05:06 | 0:05:08 | |
And he would kid with the musicians. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
Pretty soon he started kidding pretty hard | 0:05:10 | 0:05:12 | |
and he'd pick on them a little bit. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:14 | |
-Did he ever pick on you? -He did one time. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
I told him to F off or something like that. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
# You've lost that lovin' feeling, now it's gone... # | 0:05:19 | 0:05:24 | |
Do you ever come across surprise from people being brought in | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
just to do vocals on the pop records that you were a female player? | 0:05:27 | 0:05:31 | |
Frank Sinatra, he was kind of, like, standoffish. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
He was like... "Oh, I've got a woman on today." | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
You know, but they were all cool. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:38 | |
# And then I go and spoil it all | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
# By saying something stupid like "I love you..." | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
GOOD VIBRATIONS BASS LINE | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
After proving herself to the Rat Pack, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
Carol helped a certain Beach Boy shape his musical vision. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
# I'm picking up good vibrations | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
# She's giving me excitations... # | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
I got along with Brian very well. I was like an older sister to him. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
He brought in his parts. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
They weren't written very well, you know, | 0:06:09 | 0:06:11 | |
so you knew that he was not schooled in music. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:13 | |
Sharps and flats on the wrong side of the note, | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
stems on the wrong side of the note, you know... | 0:06:16 | 0:06:18 | |
Sometimes you had to recopy the bass parts. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
BASS TO WICHITA LINEMAN | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
Carol Kaye played on over 10,000 sessions | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
and laid down some of the Sixties' most famous basslines, | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
from Glen Campbell's Wichita Lineman | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
to Simon and Garfunkel's Homeward Bound. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
Despite her huge success, she was always a lone pioneer who constantly | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
had to defend her unique position in the session business. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
In 1964, a band of Liverpudlian teenagers struck out | 0:06:49 | 0:06:53 | |
to find fame amid the exotic delights of Hamburg's Reeperbahn. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
The kids couldn't get enough of the Fab Four. | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
# It tastes real good but it's so hard | 0:07:00 | 0:07:03 | |
# Peanut, peanut butter... # | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
Val, Mary, Sylvia and Pam were The Liverbirds. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:11 | |
They were part of the Merseybeat scene. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
It wasn't only Cilla who found success working in the Cavern Club. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
Alongside the Beatles, The Liverbirds were chosen to play | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
at Hamburg's famous Star Club. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:22 | |
It's there that I met up with them to talk about | 0:07:22 | 0:07:24 | |
the reaction they got when they formed | 0:07:24 | 0:07:26 | |
their all-girl rock-and-roll band in the early 1960s. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
-This is all the groups that played here? -Yeah. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
-Where are you? -We're right next to The Beatles! -Ah, there you are! | 0:07:32 | 0:07:37 | |
-Wow! -Yeah. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:38 | |
SCREAMING DROWNS MUSIC | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
Tell me what made the Hamburg scene | 0:07:43 | 0:07:45 | |
so different from the Liverpool scene. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:47 | |
In them days, it was the dream of every group | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
to come and play in Hamburg. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:51 | |
If you went back to Liverpool or wherever you came from | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
and you had the Star Club sticker on your guitar case, | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
it meant that you had achieved something. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:00 | |
The Star Club may have been the rock-and-roll Mecca | 0:08:02 | 0:08:04 | |
to all up-and-coming bands, | 0:08:04 | 0:08:05 | |
but being nestled in Hamburg's infamous Reeperbahn | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
made for an eye-opening experience for these good Catholic girls. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
-When you arrived here in Hamburg, you were 18 and 17. -Yeah. -Mmm. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
What did you make of the Reeperbahn? | 0:08:17 | 0:08:19 | |
-Shock. -THEY LAUGH | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
And the taxi dropped us off at the side street and all I saw, | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
cos all I was interested in in those days was church... | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
"Oh, God, there's a big church!" And then we went round | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
the corner and saw all the strip clubs. We couldn't believe it! | 0:08:32 | 0:08:35 | |
# If you've found someone who loves you more | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
# Give you love you've never had before... # | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
It was such an unusual group. I mean, you dressed a little bit like boys. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
How did you decide what you were going to look like? | 0:08:45 | 0:08:47 | |
We only had males that could influence us. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
We wanted to look like them, as well. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
How did people react to a group with all girls on guitars? | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
We were only rehearsing at the time, and we went into the dressing room, | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
there's John Lennon and Paul McCartney getting changed. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
And John Lennon says, "What's this? Girls with guitars? | 0:09:02 | 0:09:05 | |
"I bet you that never works out." | 0:09:05 | 0:09:06 | |
Proving Lennon wrong, The Liverbirds found success in Germany. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
In fact, they never returned to England | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
and played on until 1967 when they were still | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
one of the club's main draws. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
-Thank you! -CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
# And the red queen's off with her head... # | 0:09:20 | 0:09:25 | |
So, was it now becoming acceptable for girls to start rock bands? | 0:09:25 | 0:09:29 | |
Psychedelia blossomed across America, producing dazzling frontwomen | 0:09:29 | 0:09:33 | |
like Grace Slick of Jefferson Airplane, and Janis Joplin. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:36 | |
# Oh, whoa-oh... # | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
If you were a girl in the late 1960s and you wanted to pick up a guitar, | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
there was pretty much only one frame of reference. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:47 | |
You had to play like a man. | 0:09:47 | 0:09:49 | |
The first all-girl rock band to be given a major label record deal | 0:09:50 | 0:09:53 | |
in the US were called Fanny. | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
When we got to California in 1961, | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
it was all about acoustic guitars. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
In the entire world, we knew of no other young women | 0:10:08 | 0:10:11 | |
or girls who were playing electric. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:14 | |
I mean, we were very confident cos we knew we could play. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:17 | |
That really is what separated us maybe from a lot of people | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
who wanted to do it, even boys! | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
We were a lot better than a lot of boys that we ran into. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
We've played the Fillmore East. We've played the Fillmore West. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
We've played with The Kinks, with Procol Harum and we... | 0:10:36 | 0:10:38 | |
We've just done so much. We were in the circle. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
And I think they were all pretty thrilled to have us come in, | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
you know, these "chicks" who could play. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:48 | |
# I've got too much time on my hands | 0:10:48 | 0:10:53 | |
# I've gotta find me a superman... # | 0:10:53 | 0:10:57 | |
And when a band called Fanny started writing songs, | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
their lyrics tapped into the sexually liberated spirit of the age. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
# Cos I'm a hot lovin' | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
# Good lovin' | 0:11:12 | 0:11:13 | |
# Sweet lovin' woman and I know how to love... # | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
It was just a complete lifestyle change that was moving with society, | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
with civil rights, with feminism, | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
that was coming but we didn't know it, you know? | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
We were with the times and it was just this little sliver | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
that opened up and "boom", we just went right through. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
Back to Fanny, who have been conquering | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
male chauvinist hearts everywhere. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
# Special care | 0:11:38 | 0:11:41 | |
# Has been taken to make you aware... # | 0:11:41 | 0:11:47 | |
Was there amusement in the UK press at the name Fanny when you came out? | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
You know, I don't even remember who broke it to us, | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
-what Fanny means... -SHE LAUGHS -..in the UK, | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
but it just seemed really funny to us. | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
-"Fanny! Fanny! Fanny!" -SHE LAUGHS | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
Imagine our surprise! | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
-I was like, "Oh, they love us!" -SHE LAUGHS | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
SHE PLAYS SPECIAL CARE | 0:12:08 | 0:12:12 | |
40 years later, and June's now running a school of rock for girls, | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
using her experiences to show the next generation | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
what to expect from the business. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:27 | |
So, tell us about this IMA rock camp you set up for girls. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
What I'm doing is I'm giving back cos I feel like I was really lucky, | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
even though when I left Fanny, people didn't understand. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:38 | |
I needed to find something else... | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
-They didn't understand why you were leaving? -Yeah. I barely understood. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:44 | |
My body just broke down cos I was so tired but I didn't want to leave, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
but my body just said, "Hey, you're done." | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
So, when I talk about the music biz to the girls, | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
I'm not telling them, "You should go out and become a star." | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
What I tell them is, "It's a lot harder to be a star than you think." | 0:12:56 | 0:13:00 | |
MUSIC: Special Care by Fanny | 0:13:00 | 0:13:03 | |
JUNE PLAYS LAST NOTE OF SONG | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
-Take that! -SHE LAUGHS | 0:13:12 | 0:13:14 | |
Back in Britain, Elkie Brooks seemed to be the perfect singer | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
on the '60s pop circuit. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:26 | |
# These lonely nights are getting so hard to bear... # | 0:13:26 | 0:13:31 | |
But for some reason, the decade never quite sat right with her. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:35 | |
She transformed herself into a smouldering blues rock siren... | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
MUSIC: Proud To Be A Honky Woman by Vinegar Joe | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
..and found her musical home | 0:13:49 | 0:13:50 | |
alongside Robert Palmer in the band Vinegar Joe. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
# I'm sorry if I wear mascara and I paint my toenails red... # | 0:13:55 | 0:14:01 | |
She thought they would last forever | 0:14:01 | 0:14:03 | |
but it wasn't so easy with two lead singers pulling on the reins. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:07 | |
# But I was raised in a city | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
# On the wrong side of the tracks... # | 0:14:09 | 0:14:13 | |
There was quite a transformation from '60s Elkie to the amazing rock chick. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:18 | |
I just loved it. It just seemed very natural for me. | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
It just progressed in Vinegar Joe | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
to more of a raunchy look. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
Did you feel that you were fitting quite naturally | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
-into that more sexy image? -Yeah, I suppose it was quite... | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
You know, a little bit of rebellion in me. I've always had that. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
# Proud to be a honky woman, yeah... # | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
It was quite unusual to have a male and female | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
singing in tandem like that, vying off each other. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
I hated being on my own so much in the '60s. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
And you were happier in the band dynamic, is that right? | 0:14:52 | 0:14:55 | |
Oh, I loved it. I loved it. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:56 | |
# With your bizarre repertoire | 0:14:56 | 0:15:01 | |
# You perform on your Japanese guitar... # | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
You had a great chemistry with Robert on stage. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
I thought he was marvellous. A wonderful, wonderful singer. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
And incredible looking! | 0:15:12 | 0:15:13 | |
He was a wonderful looking man. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
I think I sang with him | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
rather than he sang with me. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:21 | |
# Oh, no | 0:15:21 | 0:15:23 | |
# With your bizarre | 0:15:23 | 0:15:25 | |
# Repertoire... # | 0:15:25 | 0:15:27 | |
So, Melody Maker made you the "Face of 1973". | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
What was the reaction to that? | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
"Face of '73", yeah. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
No, Robert wasn't very happy about that | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
because we, in actual fact, as I found out later, | 0:15:37 | 0:15:43 | |
were only supposed to be Robert Palmer's backing band. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:45 | |
But of course, the press picked up on me | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
and that wasn't the way it was supposed to go. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
# Oh, lady of the rain... # | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
'He was just bitter about it.' | 0:15:55 | 0:15:58 | |
Because, obviously, he was jealous that they hadn't picked up on him. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:02 | |
# It's some kind of harmony | 0:16:02 | 0:16:07 | |
# The shadows you see... # | 0:16:07 | 0:16:11 | |
How did the band come to an end? | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
Well, quite simply, | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
Robert said that he was leaving the band. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:19 | |
And Vinegar Joe was no more. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
We did our last gig, I think, in March 1974. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
How did you feel when it finished? | 0:16:27 | 0:16:29 | |
Devastated, really. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
Didn't really know what to do. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:34 | |
For months, I would sit | 0:16:34 | 0:16:36 | |
and put all the old press cuttings together in a scrapbook. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
You know, I was very much still living in the past. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:42 | |
it was difficult for me to pick myself up and do something else. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:47 | |
# Pearl's a singer | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
# She stands up | 0:16:51 | 0:16:53 | |
# When she plays the piano... # | 0:16:53 | 0:16:58 | |
Within three years, | 0:16:58 | 0:17:00 | |
Elkie found she was better standing on her own two feet. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
How do you feel about Vinegar Joe now? | 0:17:03 | 0:17:05 | |
I really have put it down to experience. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:07 | |
I wouldn't have missed it for the world. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:09 | |
It's made me the person I am today. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh | 0:17:13 | 0:17:15 | |
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
# Sha-sha-oo-ooh... # | 0:17:17 | 0:17:19 | |
# And your boyfriend's name is Eagle | 0:17:22 | 0:17:24 | |
# And he lives up in the sky... # | 0:17:24 | 0:17:26 | |
Things were changing. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:28 | |
Suddenly everyone wanted to see women in bands. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
Record executive Mickie Most | 0:17:31 | 0:17:32 | |
had masterminded Suzi Quatro's career | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
and Suzi became a big influence on The Runaways. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
# So make a stand for your man, honey | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
# Try to can the can... # | 0:17:42 | 0:17:44 | |
I met up with guitarist Lita Ford. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
# Can't stay at home | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
# Can't stay in school | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
# Old folks say... # | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
Lita looks back on her time in the band | 0:17:53 | 0:17:54 | |
and remembers the call she got from LA impresario Kim Fowley, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
luring her with the promise of rock and roll | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
when she was just a teenager. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:02 | |
# Hello, Daddy | 0:18:02 | 0:18:04 | |
# Hello, Mom | 0:18:04 | 0:18:05 | |
# I'm your ch-ch-ch... # | 0:18:05 | 0:18:07 | |
# Cherry bomb! | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
# Hello, world | 0:18:09 | 0:18:11 | |
# I'm your wild girl | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
# Ch-ch-ch-ch | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
# Cherry bomb! # | 0:18:15 | 0:18:16 | |
Kim Fowley gave me the rap of a lifetime. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
"You're going to meet the biggest rock stars. | 0:18:20 | 0:18:22 | |
"You're going to play the biggest venues and tour the world." | 0:18:22 | 0:18:28 | |
And I was like, "Wow! I gotta tell my mom!" | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
# Ch-ch-ch-ch | 0:18:32 | 0:18:34 | |
# Cherry bomb! # | 0:18:34 | 0:18:36 | |
What did Kim teach you about being in a band? | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
He would teach as how to talk, how to sit, how to stand. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:43 | |
"Don't wear that sweater. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
"Wear something in black that's low-cut." | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
He would tell us, | 0:18:47 | 0:18:49 | |
"Don't wear that. Put on some high heels." | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
"Like, Kim, she's 15 years old, | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
"why would you want her to wear high heels?" | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
"Because, she's sexy. | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
"Because she's jailbait. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:02 | |
"And don't talk to me that way! | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
"I'm the boss here, you don't tell me what to do." | 0:19:05 | 0:19:08 | |
When you were in the studio with Kim | 0:19:08 | 0:19:10 | |
and he would call you "dog meat" or "dog shit", | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
-did that have any effect on your confidence? -Not really. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:17 | |
To say the word, "Hey, you piece of shit," it was like... | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
"Yes, Kim(!)" | 0:19:20 | 0:19:21 | |
You know, I took it more with a grain of salt. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
Despite Fowley's verbal abuse, | 0:19:31 | 0:19:33 | |
the band got to experience mass adulation from their teenage fans, | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
as they toured Japan. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:39 | |
When we got off the plane, | 0:19:39 | 0:19:40 | |
there were thousands of people in the airport. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
They had to hold a human barricade back | 0:19:43 | 0:19:46 | |
so the girls could walk between. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:49 | |
# Let me tell you what we've been doing... # | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
After the huge success in Japan, | 0:19:54 | 0:19:56 | |
it seemed Fowley's rap about being the biggest band in the world | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
might have paid off, until things started to go wrong. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
When did you first realise that the group might not last? | 0:20:02 | 0:20:05 | |
Well, Cherie quit awfully fast. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
She was dating the assistant manager, Scott, | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
and he ended up getting her pregnant at 16, which... | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
..you know, being a rock band, | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
it's not like you're home with Mom and Dad. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:24 | |
And we didn't want to break up the band. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:26 | |
Our only option was for Joan to sing. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
# Used to being a troublemaker | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
# Hated homework, was a sweet heartbreaker... # | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
You had the sex, drugs and rock-and-roll lifestyle | 0:20:38 | 0:20:41 | |
when you were so young. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:42 | |
What would you change if you could go back? | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
There was a couple of us... | 0:20:47 | 0:20:50 | |
..that were violated...sexually. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
That, I would change. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
Had I have known and had I have seen it coming... | 0:20:58 | 0:21:03 | |
..I would have definitely done something to prevent that. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
I wasn't raped and I didn't know Jackie was. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:12 | |
I hate that she was. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:15 | |
I never knew until now. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
Those are the things that, actually... | 0:21:19 | 0:21:21 | |
..make me sick. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:24 | |
And that shouldn't have happened. Motherfuckers. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
# School days | 0:21:28 | 0:21:29 | |
# I'm starting to slip I'm losing my mind... # | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
..kiss | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
Oscar Wilde | 0:21:38 | 0:21:39 | |
Jah lives | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
Mr Thorpe | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
The time is now, the time is now... | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
But not every girl in rock | 0:21:47 | 0:21:48 | |
was suffering at the hands of a manipulative male manager. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
In 1975, an androgynous, liberated rock star | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
appeared out of nowhere. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:57 | |
# Surround by horses, horses, horses, horses... # | 0:21:57 | 0:22:01 | |
Patti Smith changed things forever for girls in rock bands. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
Whether you had grown up in CBGB's, | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
or Ferryhill Working Men's Club. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
In 1976, there wasn't any punk in the Durham pit town | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
where the teenage Pauline Murray lived. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
So, she formed her own band, Penetration, | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
and brought punk to Ferryhill. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
# Don't dictate | 0:22:32 | 0:22:33 | |
# Don't dictate | 0:22:33 | 0:22:35 | |
# Don't dictate, dictate to me | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
# Don't dictate | 0:22:38 | 0:22:39 | |
# Don't dictate | 0:22:39 | 0:22:40 | |
# Don't dictate, dictate to me... # | 0:22:40 | 0:22:43 | |
What was it like, being a punk in Ferryhill in Durham? | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
The general public of where we lived, I mean, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
it was a totally different culture. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
It was the workmen's club culture. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
Men were men, women were women. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
Most people didn't like to stand out, | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
because they would be worried about what other people thought of them. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:02 | |
A very close-knit community. | 0:23:02 | 0:23:04 | |
Everyone knew what everyone was doing. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
So, when we started to go out and do things with the band, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
obviously, people would discuss it. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
And we did get chased | 0:23:12 | 0:23:14 | |
or we did get a brick through our window. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
But nothing we couldn't handle. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
# Penetrating voices going through my head | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
# I haven't listened to a thing they've said | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
# Always they removed the answers... # | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
What was the reaction in your family to the name of the band? | 0:23:30 | 0:23:33 | |
They thought it was a bit of a laugh. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
Not that the neighbours did. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:37 | |
You know, I remember we went to Dundee and my dad had a T-shirt, | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
a home-made T-shirt that said "Penetration". | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
And we got out of the car and an old lady over the road shouted, | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
"Grandad punk!" | 0:23:48 | 0:23:49 | |
And I think he quite liked it. | 0:23:49 | 0:23:51 | |
# Time to think and ask anew | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
# Is it them or is it you? | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
# Let them go, set them free... # | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
Did you ever feel that you were being treated differently | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
by the other guys in the band because you're female? | 0:24:04 | 0:24:06 | |
I actually did just feel like one of the boys. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
# It's all a fascination | 0:24:09 | 0:24:12 | |
# All your imagination... # | 0:24:12 | 0:24:15 | |
What were your aspirations when you got into a punk band? | 0:24:15 | 0:24:19 | |
-What did you hope for? -It was about doing something creatively new | 0:24:19 | 0:24:22 | |
whilst operating almost outside of the system. | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
If that's at all possible. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:28 | |
And we did for a little while operate outside of the system. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
# I want to know-oh-oh-oh | 0:24:32 | 0:24:34 | |
# Oooooh. # | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
CHEERING | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
Pauline and other girls were part of punk right from the start. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
And female artists continued to fight for space in the scene, | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
gradually bagging record deals. | 0:24:51 | 0:24:53 | |
If Pauline found that changing attitudes | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
in a small northern town was a big ask, | 0:25:00 | 0:25:02 | |
you'd think that life as a punk in London might have been easier. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
But as one Londoner discovered, opposition was everywhere. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:09 | |
You're a typical girl, you tried out being in a band with Sid Vicious, | 0:25:09 | 0:25:13 | |
that didn't work. Then you find your musical soul-mates. | 0:25:13 | 0:25:17 | |
You terrify the boys. The skinheads want to physically hurt you. | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
But you've got a vision, a manifesto, in fact, | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
and playing live is being on the front line. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:26 | |
So, you're going to have to be absolutely fearless. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
THEY SING | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
The Slits lived in a very violent time. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:37 | |
You know, '76, '77. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
It was very scary on the streets. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:41 | |
We had to go everywhere together as a group of three or four, | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
because the way we were dressed was so alien to the times | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
that men everywhere found us incredibly threatening. | 0:25:47 | 0:25:50 | |
And skinhead girls and Teddy girls. | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
We would be attacked physically, verbally. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:54 | |
Ari got stabbed twice in the street. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:58 | |
I mean, she was 15 years old. | 0:25:58 | 0:25:59 | |
We were often running for our lives. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:01 | |
'The infamous Slits, a much-publicised all-girl band | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
'who've never actually made a record. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
'Indeed, they have refused offers from several record labels.' | 0:26:08 | 0:26:12 | |
Undeterred by the violence, The Slits remained united. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
They didn't want to sell out. | 0:26:16 | 0:26:18 | |
After all, punk was about doing things on their own terms. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
We had a vision. You know, we're going to change things for girls, | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
we're going to change things for music. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
You know, we weren't just going and playing gigs, | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
we were doing something very new. We were absolutely driven. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:32 | |
We'd spent months and months discussing, | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
"How should we stand on stage?" | 0:26:34 | 0:26:35 | |
"Because we don't want to stand how men stand, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:38 | |
"with our legs wide open and the guitar right down there | 0:26:38 | 0:26:40 | |
"like we've got great big, heavy bollocks hanging down or something!" | 0:26:40 | 0:26:43 | |
We even talked about not using breathy, little-girl voices, | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
which a lot of women sang in back then. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
You know, I said, | 0:26:48 | 0:26:49 | |
"Oh, I sing like you're shouting across a playground at a mate." | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
And actually, a girl's voice isn't that different to a boy's voice | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
when you're going, "Oi, John!" | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
# Typical girls get upset too quickly | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
# Typical girls... # | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
When you imagine The Slits' audience when you're up there on stage, | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
I mean, how important was it | 0:27:08 | 0:27:09 | |
to you that boys were there as well as girls? | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
I said, I want us to be a band that boys want to be in, | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
and the gang that boys want to be in | 0:27:15 | 0:27:17 | |
and wear clothes that boys want to copy. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:19 | |
I mean, of course, girls, we were there for girls mostly, | 0:27:19 | 0:27:22 | |
but also wanted to show guys that we were equally as cool. | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
# Typical boy, that typical boy Gets that typical girl | 0:27:26 | 0:27:31 | |
# That typical girl gets that typical boy. # | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
If the Brits were driven, | 0:27:38 | 0:27:39 | |
one girl who came out of the New York punk scene | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
was a little bit more reticent. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:44 | |
# You may find yourself in a beautiful house... # | 0:27:44 | 0:27:46 | |
Growing up, Tina Weymouth always wanted to be a boy. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
However, she didn't particularly want to be in a band. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
It took her boyfriend, Chris Frantz, | 0:27:53 | 0:27:55 | |
ages to persuade her into joining Talking Heads. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:57 | |
David Byrne made her audition three times. | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
Nobody played the bass, so that was her job. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
She drove them to gigs, cut their hair and gave them her last sandwich. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
However, what she describes as a sideline role | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
quickly proved to be crucial. | 0:28:10 | 0:28:12 | |
# ..Which is on fire | 0:28:14 | 0:28:16 | |
# On fire...# | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
So, tell me a bit about your early meetings | 0:28:21 | 0:28:23 | |
with the band, with Talking Heads. | 0:28:23 | 0:28:25 | |
Obviously, you were in a relationship with Chris at that point. | 0:28:25 | 0:28:29 | |
I was. It was Chris's idea to form this band. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:33 | |
It took two years for me to enter into it. | 0:28:33 | 0:28:36 | |
-Why was that? -I just thought that it was too difficult. You know? | 0:28:36 | 0:28:42 | |
I just thought, "I'm going to be up against a lot of flak." | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
-For being the girl? -Yes. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 | |
But Chris had another idea, | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
he thought it was going to bring attention to the group. | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
And it did. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:54 | |
And it worked. | 0:28:54 | 0:28:55 | |
Do you remember hearing from Chris | 0:29:04 | 0:29:06 | |
what David thought about you joining the group? | 0:29:06 | 0:29:09 | |
He said to me, he thought that women's role | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
shouldn't really be in the big world | 0:29:14 | 0:29:18 | |
-because it was a dangerous place for women. -He really said this? | 0:29:18 | 0:29:21 | |
He really said this to me. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:23 | |
# Ba ba ba ba | 0:29:23 | 0:29:25 | |
# Ba ba ba ba... # | 0:29:25 | 0:29:27 | |
-You had very short hair. -Yes. -Where did that look come from? | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
Well, that came from David. One day he said, "You know, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
"I think it will make your eyes look bigger if you have short hair." | 0:29:36 | 0:29:40 | |
So, I said, "OK," I thought, | 0:29:40 | 0:29:42 | |
"Well, if it pleases him." | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
We're going right on to the next number. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
Tell me about your involvement with Psycho Killer. | 0:29:54 | 0:29:57 | |
David was listening to Alice Cooper | 0:29:57 | 0:29:59 | |
and thought, "I can do something really rude." | 0:29:59 | 0:30:01 | |
So, David said, "I need lyrics." | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
And so, we brainstormed. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
I said, "Well, Hitchcock would say | 0:30:08 | 0:30:13 | |
"I'm gonna kill you because you're rude, you're not polite." | 0:30:13 | 0:30:18 | |
# You start a conversation and You can't even finish it | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
# You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything. # | 0:30:22 | 0:30:26 | |
And he had this really brilliant idea, which was, | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
"I want to create a sense of schism, | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
"where he changes personality | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
"from being one person to being another person. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:38 | |
"I think the best way to do that is change language." | 0:30:38 | 0:30:42 | |
So, I wrote lyrics to that effect. | 0:30:42 | 0:30:45 | |
# Oh, oh | 0:30:45 | 0:30:46 | |
# Psycho killer | 0:30:46 | 0:30:49 | |
# Qu'est-ce que c'est | 0:30:49 | 0:30:50 | |
# Fa fa fa fa... # | 0:30:50 | 0:30:51 | |
Didn't always get the pronunciation right | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
but it was a good approximation and people kind of got it. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
Although I noticed today | 0:30:58 | 0:31:00 | |
that when people covered the song | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
they copy the mistakes! | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
# Realisant mon espoir | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
# Je me lance, vers la gloire, OK...# | 0:31:09 | 0:31:14 | |
Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth posited this idea | 0:31:14 | 0:31:17 | |
that women are drawn to the bass | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
-because it is a naturally nurturing role. -Oh, please(!) | 0:31:19 | 0:31:24 | |
I don't think it has anything to do with gender | 0:31:24 | 0:31:28 | |
and it's one of the reasons I don't...I've always eschewed | 0:31:28 | 0:31:32 | |
answering "feminist" questions. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:34 | |
It's just such... It's so loaded. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
If you want to do something, just do it, don't talk about it | 0:31:37 | 0:31:41 | |
and don't criticise other women. | 0:31:41 | 0:31:44 | |
If they want to go out, you know, | 0:31:44 | 0:31:46 | |
and swing on a wrecking ball naked, why not? | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
Let them do what they want! | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
We just are smart as women because | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
we have our balls neatly tucked inside where they're protected. | 0:31:55 | 0:32:01 | |
And that's that. | 0:32:01 | 0:32:02 | |
That's a-a-a-all! Over to you! | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
If David Byrne really thought | 0:32:17 | 0:32:19 | |
the world was a dangerous place for women, | 0:32:19 | 0:32:21 | |
he'd be aghast at the thought of our next band, Girlschool, | 0:32:21 | 0:32:24 | |
who found themselves in amongst this lot. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:27 | |
Heavy metal was the last male domain in music. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:29 | |
But one band piqued the interest of Lemmy and joined the hard-gigging, | 0:32:29 | 0:32:33 | |
hard-drinking, access-all-areas world of the monsters of rock. | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
Why do you think you were drawn to metal? What was it about metal... | 0:32:49 | 0:32:52 | |
Well, I grew up listening to it, you know? | 0:32:52 | 0:32:54 | |
First couple of concerts I went to, Hammersmith Odeon with my mate, | 0:32:54 | 0:32:57 | |
from school when we were 16, I think, something like that. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:00 | |
Black Sabbath, saw Black Sabbath there, | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
and Deep Purple on the Burn tour. | 0:33:03 | 0:33:05 | |
Little did I know that later on in the years | 0:33:05 | 0:33:07 | |
we'd actually be playing with them! | 0:33:07 | 0:33:09 | |
# Come on! | 0:33:09 | 0:33:10 | |
-# Nothing to lose, come on! CROWD: -Nothing to lose! | 0:33:13 | 0:33:15 | |
# Nothing to lose! # | 0:33:15 | 0:33:17 | |
When you first played rock clubs | 0:33:17 | 0:33:18 | |
that had probably only ever seen male bands in them before, | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
do you ever feel you had to win the audience over? | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
I think at the beginning, | 0:33:23 | 0:33:25 | |
people didn't really know what to make of us. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:27 | |
You know, I think first of all they just looked at us | 0:33:27 | 0:33:29 | |
as if to say, "What the hell is going on here?" You know? | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
-Did you get any heckles? -Oh, God, yeah, | 0:33:32 | 0:33:33 | |
it used to always be, "Get your tits out!" basically, you know? | 0:33:33 | 0:33:36 | |
And we used to say, "Get yours out first!" | 0:33:36 | 0:33:38 | |
# Oh, we're the barmy Girlschool army | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
# La-la-la-la-la! # | 0:33:41 | 0:33:42 | |
Shut up! | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
After learning their trade playing sweaty rock clubs, | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
Girlschool received the ultimate metal seal of approval. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
This little band called Motorhead | 0:33:52 | 0:33:54 | |
happened to be looking for a support band. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
And Lemmy heard the single | 0:33:57 | 0:33:58 | |
and he came down to rehearsal to see if we could actually play. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:01 | |
And, of course, then, we... | 0:34:01 | 0:34:03 | |
They invited us on their first major British tour. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:07 | |
# You can tell by the look in the eye | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
# The feeling comes as no surprise. # | 0:34:14 | 0:34:16 | |
We'd never been on a tour like it. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:19 | |
So, we didn't really know what to expect. | 0:34:19 | 0:34:21 | |
We shared a bus with Motorhead, as well, on the first tour. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
So, of course, we hardly even knew 'em. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:26 | |
First of all, when we saw pictures before we actually met them | 0:34:26 | 0:34:29 | |
we were going, "What the hell?" You know? Petrified. | 0:34:29 | 0:34:33 | |
# Break down, b-b-break down | 0:34:33 | 0:34:36 | |
# Break down | 0:34:36 | 0:34:37 | |
# Break down, b-b-break down | 0:34:37 | 0:34:41 | |
# You got me, break down. # | 0:34:41 | 0:34:42 | |
On tour with Motorhead, were you under pressure | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
to party as hard as them because you had to keep your end up? | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
We didn't find any pressure whatsoever. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:50 | |
There was no mention of cups of tea or anything like that, | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
basically they used to bring us in crates of Special Brew. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:55 | |
# Please don't touch me, baby, cos I'm shaking so much | 0:34:58 | 0:35:01 | |
# Please don't touch me, baby, cos I'm shaking so much...# | 0:35:01 | 0:35:03 | |
So tell me about Please Don't Touch. | 0:35:03 | 0:35:05 | |
Vic Maile, our producer, basically. | 0:35:05 | 0:35:07 | |
And then started to work with Motorhead, as well. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
And he's the one who came up with the idea, he said, | 0:35:10 | 0:35:12 | |
"Why don't you two get together to do Please Don't Touch?" | 0:35:12 | 0:35:15 | |
# Please, please don't touch | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
# I shake so much | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
# Please don't touch | 0:35:20 | 0:35:22 | |
# I shake so much. # | 0:35:22 | 0:35:26 | |
It went straight to number five. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:28 | |
That was, we've still got the silver, silver record. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
I mean, it sold a quarter of a million and went to number five. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
That was a really exciting time. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:36 | |
I mean, the first time we went on Top Of The Pops, it was massive! | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
# ..I shake so much | 0:35:40 | 0:35:41 | |
# Please, please, don't touch... # | 0:35:41 | 0:35:45 | |
Were you seen as dangerous girls? | 0:35:45 | 0:35:47 | |
One American tour, on the back of the T-shirts, it said, | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
"The Lock-Up-Your-Sons Tour", | 0:35:50 | 0:35:52 | |
which we thought was absolutely brilliant. So... | 0:35:52 | 0:35:54 | |
-All these innocent young boys coming to see you... -Yeah, yeah, exactly! | 0:35:54 | 0:35:58 | |
-..changed forever. -Yeah. I hope so! | 0:35:58 | 0:35:59 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:36:03 | 0:36:06 | |
Imagine being at a Joy Division gig | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
and being asked to stand in for Ian Curtis on stage. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:16 | |
Then joining the remaining members of the band in their new incarnation. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:24 | |
You're not the frontwoman, you don't get to sing and dance around, | 0:36:24 | 0:36:28 | |
but gradually you find yourself in charge of the technicals. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
When Ian died, the manager, Rob, | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
he said, um, to Stephen | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
and the rest of the group, "What do you think about Gillian joining?" | 0:36:45 | 0:36:49 | |
Because you can never replace Ian | 0:36:49 | 0:36:51 | |
and they didn't want another singer, so, | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
they decided they needed one person to play keyboards and guitar. | 0:36:53 | 0:36:57 | |
Rob was a bit strange. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
The first thing he said was, | 0:37:04 | 0:37:06 | |
"Right, you've got to learn how to tune up a guitar." | 0:37:06 | 0:37:09 | |
And I'm like, "Oh, God, I'll have to." | 0:37:09 | 0:37:12 | |
And then I didn't realise till a month later, | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
HE couldn't even tune a guitar. | 0:37:14 | 0:37:16 | |
Tell me about your own creative role in the group, | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
and how that emerged over time. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:27 | |
I was in charge of all the equipment, | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
all the keyboards, | 0:37:30 | 0:37:32 | |
and starting all the sequencers. | 0:37:32 | 0:37:36 | |
# Up, down, turn around Please don't let me hit the ground | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
# Tonight, I think I'll walk alone I'll find my soul as I go home... # | 0:37:39 | 0:37:43 | |
Because you were programming sequencers, | 0:37:43 | 0:37:45 | |
you had to know the note names, | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
cos they all played by ear. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
Bernard used to say, "Oh, what note do you think will go in there?" | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
And I'm like, "Oh, it's an A sharp," and he'd be like, "Oh, right." | 0:37:53 | 0:37:56 | |
MUSIC: Blue Monday by New Order | 0:37:58 | 0:38:05 | |
What are your memories of Top Of The Pops? | 0:38:06 | 0:38:09 | |
We were in our "We want to play everything live" phase. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:12 | |
Top Of The Pops say, | 0:38:12 | 0:38:13 | |
"We don't do anything live. Everybody's got to mime." | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
"Well, no, we don't want to mime!" | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
So, that caused a big uproar. | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
# How does it feel When you treat me like you do | 0:38:22 | 0:38:29 | |
# And you've laid your hands upon me And told me who you are... # | 0:38:29 | 0:38:35 | |
Another thing about Top Of The Pops, they like you to move. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:39 | |
And as soon as they saw me, especially, | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
I had to start it all, and then just stand there waiting for my cue. | 0:38:42 | 0:38:46 | |
They couldn't get their head round that. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
-It was like, "Oh, dear, we've got problems, they don't move!" -SHE LAUGHS | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
MUSIC: Blue Monday by New Order | 0:38:51 | 0:38:58 | |
But their lack of movement didn't deter the Football Association, | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
who needed a song for England's 1990 World Cup campaign, | 0:39:03 | 0:39:07 | |
and it was Gillian who obliged. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:09 | |
World In Motion, such a famously blokey song, how did that come about? | 0:39:09 | 0:39:15 | |
We'd worked on a Janet Street-Porter production | 0:39:15 | 0:39:19 | |
that was called Reportage. | 0:39:19 | 0:39:21 | |
I wrote the one at the end with the credits, and she'd said, | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
"Well, the Reportage piece could be the start | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
"of the World In Motion song." | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
MUSIC: World In Motion by New Order | 0:39:33 | 0:39:39 | |
They weren't really into football, the rest of New Order, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
there was only me and my dad, we used to watch World Cup games | 0:39:43 | 0:39:47 | |
together, so I was really into football, so it was like, "Yeah!" | 0:39:47 | 0:39:51 | |
-My dad was so proud of me! Yeah! -SHE LAUGHS | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
And we met them in the studio, | 0:39:54 | 0:39:56 | |
and Paul Gascoigne came in and went, "Eh, that's a big organ, in't it?" | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
You know, the mixing desk. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:01 | |
# Love's got the world in motion And I know what we can do... # | 0:40:01 | 0:40:09 | |
World In Motion became New Order's only number one hit in the UK. | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
# ..And I can't believe it's true.. # | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
Gillian Gilbert and Stephen Morris had been in a relationship | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
for years, proving sometimes, rock-and-roll couples can work. | 0:40:19 | 0:40:22 | |
But can you expect such a harmonious ride when you marry Mark E Smith? | 0:40:22 | 0:40:27 | |
What really went on there? We only have this excerpt. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:32 | |
LA-born art student and Anglophile indie freak Laura Elisse Salenger | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
got talking to Mark E Smith one night after a gig. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
Within six months, she was living in Prestwich, and a member of The Fall. | 0:40:40 | 0:40:44 | |
MUSIC: Cruiser's Creek by The Fall | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
Hello, Brix Smith, I'm Kate. | 0:40:48 | 0:40:51 | |
-Oh, look at these guys! -That's Pixie. -Pixie and Gladys? -Yeah. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:57 | |
# There's a party going down around here | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
# Cruiser's Creek now... # | 0:41:01 | 0:41:03 | |
So, tell me how you found out about The Fall and how you became a member. | 0:41:03 | 0:41:07 | |
We saw in the Chicago Reader that The Fall were coming to play. | 0:41:07 | 0:41:11 | |
I was waiting in line to get beer, | 0:41:11 | 0:41:12 | |
and as I got my beer and I turned around, | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
bam, smacked into the singer. | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
He had a bottle of beer in each hand | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
and a line of white powder coming down his nose, | 0:41:19 | 0:41:21 | |
which should have been a red flag, but hey, rock and roll! | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
# I'm totally wired | 0:41:26 | 0:41:28 | |
# T-T-T-Totally wired... # | 0:41:28 | 0:41:30 | |
He said, "You know, we were invited to a party afterwards, | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
"do you want to come?" and I said, "Sure!" | 0:41:33 | 0:41:36 | |
And we got in the car and he said to me, "What do you do?" | 0:41:36 | 0:41:39 | |
and I said, "I'm in a band," | 0:41:39 | 0:41:40 | |
and he said, "Oh, do you have any tapes of your music?" | 0:41:40 | 0:41:43 | |
And I put the tape in, and he said, "Who wrote these songs?" | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
and I said, "I did," and he said, "You're a fucking genius". | 0:41:46 | 0:41:51 | |
And, basically, it was sort of decided over the next couple of days | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
that he would bring me over to England to help me | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
get a solo record deal and sort of mastermind it and be my Svengali. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
Mark E Smith had other ideas, and thought his new-found genius | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
would make a good addition to The Fall, | 0:42:09 | 0:42:11 | |
so he wooed Brix to the delights of Manchester. | 0:42:11 | 0:42:15 | |
When I landed, I was shocked. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
Driving from the train station, I... It was just...so heinous. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:23 | |
And Mark was so excited, like, he is, like, loves Manchester. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:28 | |
He showed me the must-see sights. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:31 | |
So, he was like, "Look, Brixie, over there's Boddingtons' Brewery!" | 0:42:31 | 0:42:35 | |
And I'm like "Yeah, great(!)" He goes, "That's Strangeways prison!" | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
I'm like, "God...!" | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
# Purchased a pair of flabby wings | 0:42:40 | 0:42:43 | |
# I took to doing some hovering... # | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
But, saying that, I was where I wanted to be, | 0:42:46 | 0:42:51 | |
I was doing what I wanted to do, and I was with a man that I loved. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
# Pick the fleas, Mister | 0:42:54 | 0:42:56 | |
# Eat y'self fitter... # | 0:42:56 | 0:42:58 | |
Three months later, they were Mr and Mrs Smith, | 0:42:58 | 0:43:01 | |
and Brix was now writing songs and a fully fledged member of The Fall. | 0:43:01 | 0:43:05 | |
MUSIC: 2x4 by The Fall | 0:43:05 | 0:43:12 | |
Can you explain what you brought to The Fall? | 0:43:12 | 0:43:16 | |
What I did was I just wove a bit of light into their dark, | 0:43:16 | 0:43:20 | |
which, sonically, people could hear, | 0:43:20 | 0:43:24 | |
like, aurally, and it would stay in their head. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:26 | |
MUSIC: 2x4 by The Fall | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
Did the TV appearances sort of escalate once you joined the group? | 0:43:32 | 0:43:36 | |
Yeah. When we got on TV, when we did videos, | 0:43:36 | 0:43:39 | |
I was on the cover of magazines, we were all on the cover. Um... | 0:43:39 | 0:43:43 | |
I felt great about this. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:45 | |
I think Mark was also extremely happy about it. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
# Victoria | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
# Victoria... # | 0:43:51 | 0:43:55 | |
Between 1983 and 1996, Brix wrote songs | 0:43:55 | 0:43:59 | |
and featured on over seven albums for The Fall. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:01 | |
What would you say the most difficult thing on a day-to-day level | 0:44:01 | 0:44:04 | |
about being in a band with your other half was? | 0:44:04 | 0:44:06 | |
I don't know. I mean, he's not the easiest guy, personally, | 0:44:07 | 0:44:12 | |
but it was great to be kind of a double act, in a way, | 0:44:12 | 0:44:15 | |
because we had each other to bounce off, | 0:44:15 | 0:44:16 | |
and because we're so polar opposite, | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
it was fascinating to everybody how we could be a couple. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
# Cruiser's Creek! # | 0:44:22 | 0:44:23 | |
In the late '80s, the American charts were filled with heavy metal bands, | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
and women were often the spandexed adornments. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
# Girls, girls, girls... # | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
But there was an alternative. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth was to become the godmother of grunge, | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
inspiring a whole generation of girls in bands. | 0:44:51 | 0:44:55 | |
Once upon a time, there were two sisters | 0:44:55 | 0:44:57 | |
raised on a diet of hair metal and The Sound Of Music in Dayton, Ohio. | 0:44:57 | 0:45:02 | |
One joined the Pixies. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:03 | |
# This monkey's gone to heaven... # | 0:45:03 | 0:45:07 | |
The other one became a programme analyst for a defence contractor. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:11 | |
When Kim Deal wanted to start a new band, she gave her sister, | 0:45:11 | 0:45:14 | |
Kelley, a call, even though Kelley couldn't play guitar. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:17 | |
Thus, The Breeders were born. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
What's it like trying to penetrate the strange creative world | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
of identical twin sisters? | 0:45:22 | 0:45:25 | |
I always wanted to be in a band and play music with people. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
Being in Dayton and being a girl... | 0:45:33 | 0:45:36 | |
I'm trying to think of anybody in Dayton at that time that | 0:45:36 | 0:45:39 | |
I can remember, that did anything other than sing, | 0:45:39 | 0:45:43 | |
or like, maybe played a keyboard, or played... | 0:45:43 | 0:45:47 | |
..tambourine or something. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:49 | |
How was it for you working in a band with two sisters? | 0:45:54 | 0:45:57 | |
I found it kind of difficult, actually, in the beginning. | 0:45:57 | 0:46:02 | |
Not only because I was like, | 0:46:02 | 0:46:03 | |
"Who is this person who's joined the band who can't play anything?" | 0:46:03 | 0:46:07 | |
And then second of all, because they do know each other | 0:46:07 | 0:46:09 | |
so very well, and sometimes, the gloves are off. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:14 | |
-Is it fisticuffs? -No... -God, I wish! -It's just... -Wouldn't that be great? | 0:46:14 | 0:46:18 | |
It's very raw and it's very, like, "Oh, my God, | 0:46:18 | 0:46:21 | |
"how can they be like this with each other?" | 0:46:21 | 0:46:24 | |
And then the next minute, everything seems like it's fine. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:28 | |
MUSIC: Cannonball by The Breeders | 0:46:28 | 0:46:32 | |
# Spitting in a wishing well | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
# Blown to hell, crash | 0:46:36 | 0:46:39 | |
# I'm the last splash... # | 0:46:39 | 0:46:40 | |
Tell me the best thing about being in a band with your sister. | 0:46:40 | 0:46:43 | |
Well, musically, there's a lot of short cuts. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
"Pretend like you're going into McGuffy's House of Draft, OK, | 0:46:46 | 0:46:48 | |
"and you know the smell of the beer there, and that... | 0:46:48 | 0:46:51 | |
"OK, remember that one bathroom? OK, play it like that." | 0:46:51 | 0:46:55 | |
# In the shade | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
# In the shade... # | 0:47:00 | 0:47:03 | |
# With the lights out it's less dangerous... # | 0:47:03 | 0:47:07 | |
As grunge broke and Nirvana led the way, Kurt Cobain said | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
The Breeders' debut album, Pod, had been a huge influence on him. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
All the media attention, it was about... | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
-you know, alternative music and Nirvana. -Yeah. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:20 | |
And the whole changeover from a certain type of music | 0:47:20 | 0:47:24 | |
to another type of music, I think, and we were in the middle of that. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
Stuff that had been kind of obscure | 0:47:27 | 0:47:29 | |
and not particularly well-known, except for by... | 0:47:29 | 0:47:35 | |
-you know, aficionados. -You know, trading tapes... | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
All of a sudden, that became what was mainstream. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
# Want you Coocoo cannonball | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
# Want you Coocoo cannonball | 0:47:46 | 0:47:49 | |
In 1993, The Breeders were on a high. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
The song Cannonball was named Melody Maker's single of the year. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
The video was directed by Spike Jonze and Kim Gordon herself. | 0:47:56 | 0:48:00 | |
How did the media treat you for being a mostly female band? | 0:48:00 | 0:48:03 | |
We definitely got lumped in with...erm... | 0:48:03 | 0:48:08 | |
It became a bit of a thing, where, you know, a whole list of people | 0:48:08 | 0:48:12 | |
would be name-checked, as if it was some "movement". | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
# When we pretend that we're dead... # | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
The Breeders were part of a new shift of girl-fronted bands. | 0:48:18 | 0:48:22 | |
Grunge and the underground punk scene, Riot Grrrl, | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
gave girls a new freedom and a bigger say in alternative music. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
To be talked about in the media as being part of that, | 0:48:28 | 0:48:32 | |
and name-checked as, you know, being a girl band and whatever, | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
it never really bothered me, because I subscribed to the Oscar Wilde | 0:48:35 | 0:48:41 | |
"the only thing worse than being talked about | 0:48:41 | 0:48:44 | |
"is not being talked about." | 0:48:44 | 0:48:46 | |
# I'm just looking for one divine hammer... # | 0:48:46 | 0:48:51 | |
I don't think I'd want to be in a band with all guys. | 0:48:51 | 0:48:54 | |
-I would find that so boring. -Why would that be boring? | 0:48:54 | 0:48:57 | |
Oh, God... Cos guys are boring! | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
# One divine hammer | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
# One divine hammer. # | 0:49:03 | 0:49:07 | |
The Breeders and others were finding the world of rock | 0:49:12 | 0:49:15 | |
more accessible to girls. | 0:49:15 | 0:49:17 | |
British indie had also been accommodating, | 0:49:17 | 0:49:19 | |
and it offered a home from home for two girls from London. | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
# My eyes to heaven | 0:49:23 | 0:49:26 | |
# Pink cloud sits sky-high... # | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
When I was about 12, | 0:49:29 | 0:49:34 | |
my mum went to live in America, I lived with my dad, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:39 | |
he wasn't around very much, I'd moved schools, I was quite lonely. | 0:49:39 | 0:49:44 | |
That was the point when music became, like, a real obsession. | 0:49:44 | 0:49:48 | |
Music became my sort of community, and so, when I met Emma, | 0:49:50 | 0:49:55 | |
who was also in Lush, we were quite similar in that way, actually, | 0:49:55 | 0:49:59 | |
so we started going to gigs together, | 0:49:59 | 0:50:01 | |
and then suddenly being in a band is, like, quite easy, | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
actually, because everyone's in a band. | 0:50:04 | 0:50:07 | |
Most of them are awful, so you think, "Well, I can do that." | 0:50:07 | 0:50:10 | |
# Hand on my heart | 0:50:10 | 0:50:15 | |
# And I... # | 0:50:15 | 0:50:17 | |
When we started, it was just writing music and playing it live, | 0:50:17 | 0:50:22 | |
and we didn't really think that much about the sound. | 0:50:22 | 0:50:24 | |
In fact, we had no technical knowledge about guitars | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
or anything, and because we weren't confident musicians, | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
because we weren't confident singers, that, sort of, | 0:50:30 | 0:50:34 | |
effects and swirliness, it cloaks a lot. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:38 | |
It really does! | 0:50:38 | 0:50:39 | |
# Ah, oh... # | 0:50:39 | 0:50:44 | |
In 1992, Perry Farrell from Jane's Addiction liked their sound so much | 0:50:45 | 0:50:50 | |
that Lush found themselves catapulted | 0:50:50 | 0:50:52 | |
into America's alternative rock scene, | 0:50:52 | 0:50:54 | |
when they were asked to play at Lollapalooza | 0:50:54 | 0:50:56 | |
alongside the Red Hot Chili Peppers. | 0:50:56 | 0:50:58 | |
So, we got onto this bill, which was just ridiculous, | 0:50:58 | 0:51:02 | |
and because we were the underdogs | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
and we had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain, | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
we had a really good time, actually, and we really enjoyed it. | 0:51:07 | 0:51:11 | |
But it was, you know, introduction to big American rock. | 0:51:11 | 0:51:17 | |
# What I've got you've got to give it to your mamma... # | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
A few years later, | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
Miki took her experience of meeting the Chili Peppers' | 0:51:21 | 0:51:24 | |
red-blooded Anthony Kiedis at Lollapalooza, | 0:51:24 | 0:51:26 | |
and used it as inspiration for Lush's hit Ladykillers. | 0:51:26 | 0:51:30 | |
# Hey, you, the muscles and the long hair | 0:51:30 | 0:51:32 | |
# Telling me that women are superior to men | 0:51:32 | 0:51:36 | |
# Most guys just don't appreciate this | 0:51:36 | 0:51:38 | |
# You just try convincing me you're better than them... # | 0:51:38 | 0:51:42 | |
Loads of people at the time that I wrote Ladykillers, | 0:51:42 | 0:51:45 | |
when it came out, they were like, | 0:51:45 | 0:51:46 | |
"Oh, it's really sexist towards men! | 0:51:46 | 0:51:49 | |
"And, you know, we're just... | 0:51:49 | 0:51:50 | |
"if we give women attention we're just trying to chat women up." | 0:51:50 | 0:51:53 | |
I don't mind flirting with people, | 0:51:53 | 0:51:56 | |
I just don't like being sleazed. | 0:51:56 | 0:51:58 | |
Watch this lot, | 0:51:58 | 0:51:59 | |
I once tried to get off with the lead singer after a Pulp concert. | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
Chatted her up a bit, she gave me her phone number, | 0:52:02 | 0:52:04 | |
when I rang it, it was a pizza delivery place. | 0:52:04 | 0:52:06 | |
So, I ordered an extra topping and never saw her again. | 0:52:06 | 0:52:09 | |
Till tonight, that is. Have a good look, this is Lush. | 0:52:09 | 0:52:12 | |
CHEERING | 0:52:12 | 0:52:13 | |
# Single girl, I don't wanna be a single girl... # | 0:52:13 | 0:52:18 | |
In 1996, Lush found themselves described in the press | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
as a Britpop band, and surrounded by new lads to boot. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
# I live my life in the city There's no easy way out... # | 0:52:25 | 0:52:31 | |
I didn't really like the Britpop thing, | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
and I didn't like the association. To me, the landscape changed. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
It was about being a bloke, it was about having swagger, | 0:52:37 | 0:52:41 | |
it was about "larging it". | 0:52:41 | 0:52:43 | |
# Looking for Girls who are boys | 0:52:43 | 0:52:45 | |
# Who like boys to be girls... # | 0:52:45 | 0:52:47 | |
Don't get me wrong, I have danced my arse off to Girls And Boys by Blur, | 0:52:47 | 0:52:52 | |
you know, it's fun, but I just felt excluded. | 0:52:52 | 0:52:55 | |
There was a lot of nice people, | 0:52:55 | 0:52:57 | |
but some of them were dickheads and arseholes. | 0:52:57 | 0:53:00 | |
Did you ever get any hassle from the male Britpop bands? | 0:53:00 | 0:53:03 | |
I remember Alex from Blur... | 0:53:03 | 0:53:06 | |
sinking his teeth into my arse. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:10 | |
And he thought it was hilarious, | 0:53:10 | 0:53:12 | |
and he thought I'd be really flattered, | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
and this is what I mean about the change. | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
Suddenly it seemed OK to relate to women in that way. | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
In the age of the lads' mag, the band soon discovered | 0:53:25 | 0:53:28 | |
that the media wanted more from them than just music. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:31 | |
We had a few experiences with photographers, | 0:53:31 | 0:53:33 | |
and I remember turning up, | 0:53:33 | 0:53:35 | |
and there was a sort of rail of, you know, stuff for us to wear, and... | 0:53:35 | 0:53:41 | |
erm... | 0:53:41 | 0:53:42 | |
I was honestly dressed in a skirt | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
that was like a football scarf or something, | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
I mean, it barely covered my arse. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
And the photographer was going, | 0:53:51 | 0:53:52 | |
"Right, so if you could just turn around and sort of, | 0:53:52 | 0:53:55 | |
"you know, just bend over and sort of, | 0:53:55 | 0:53:56 | |
"if you just open your legs a bit and kind of..." | 0:53:56 | 0:53:58 | |
And I was like... | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
"Fuck!" Like, absolutely no way. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:04 | |
# Shake, baby, shake | 0:54:04 | 0:54:07 | |
# You know I can fit you in my arms... # | 0:54:07 | 0:54:12 | |
20 years after laddism became a dirty word, Lush have decided to reform. | 0:54:12 | 0:54:17 | |
It's a great thing to play a gig, it's so exciting. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:20 | |
You create something in a room, you know, | 0:54:20 | 0:54:22 | |
you create a real HAPPENING, it's an event. | 0:54:22 | 0:54:25 | |
And that, I think, you know, was visceral. | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
The rest of it, the kind of, you know, the... | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
Hanging out with whoever it is, you know, you can keep that! | 0:54:31 | 0:54:35 | |
# Single girl | 0:54:35 | 0:54:38 | |
# I just wanna be a single... # | 0:54:38 | 0:54:41 | |
Miki from Lush may have loved the creativity of band life, | 0:54:41 | 0:54:44 | |
although in the past few years, | 0:54:44 | 0:54:46 | |
it's female solo artists who have dominated the charts. | 0:54:46 | 0:54:49 | |
# ..For me | 0:54:49 | 0:54:50 | |
# Who run the world? Girls... # | 0:54:50 | 0:54:52 | |
But the bands are still out there. | 0:54:52 | 0:54:54 | |
Perhaps, having deconstructed everything, | 0:54:54 | 0:54:57 | |
we should be thinking about putting everything back together. | 0:54:57 | 0:55:02 | |
50 years after Carol Kaye had made Frank Sinatra do a double-take, | 0:55:03 | 0:55:07 | |
an explosive foursome from London still found themselves answering | 0:55:07 | 0:55:11 | |
the age-old line of inquiry, "What's it like being a girl in a band?" | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
Which is a pretty dumb question to ask Savages. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
# Speaking words to the blind... # | 0:55:18 | 0:55:23 | |
When people ask, "How does it feel to be a woman in a band?" | 0:55:23 | 0:55:27 | |
I'm like, "OK, how does it feel to be a woman walking up the stairs? | 0:55:27 | 0:55:34 | |
"How does it feel to be a woman eating a sandwich?" | 0:55:34 | 0:55:36 | |
You see, like, I think it's just absurd. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:38 | |
# ..Who truly saw your soul | 0:55:38 | 0:55:42 | |
# I'm the one... # | 0:55:42 | 0:55:44 | |
Each one of us in the band were raised by our parents | 0:55:44 | 0:55:47 | |
thinking we could do anything. | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
Like, it wasn't special that Fay was playing the drums, | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
or Gemma was going to play guitar. | 0:55:53 | 0:55:56 | |
Have you ever had to deal with, | 0:56:02 | 0:56:03 | |
like, the classic male hecklers in the audience? | 0:56:03 | 0:56:06 | |
Yeah, it happened in Bridlington. | 0:56:06 | 0:56:09 | |
For some reason, the crowd was really crazy that night. | 0:56:09 | 0:56:12 | |
# Oh, God, I wanna get rid of it | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
# Oh, God, I wanna get Get rid of it... # | 0:56:15 | 0:56:18 | |
At some point in between two songs, they started shouting, | 0:56:19 | 0:56:22 | |
"Get your tits out for the lads." | 0:56:22 | 0:56:25 | |
I thought they were chanting something cool, like, | 0:56:25 | 0:56:28 | |
something good, | 0:56:28 | 0:56:29 | |
and I turned to Fay, the drummer, and I was like, "Hey!" | 0:56:29 | 0:56:31 | |
She was like... | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
"No! This is not cool!" And I didn't get it until the end of the show. | 0:56:33 | 0:56:38 | |
But the girls got it, and they were really angry. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:40 | |
But that was the only time it happened. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:42 | |
So, maybe it's just Bridlington. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:44 | |
# City's full of | 0:56:44 | 0:56:47 | |
# City's full of... # | 0:56:47 | 0:56:50 | |
It may have been a solo heckler in Bridlington, | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
but 20 years after The Breeders and Lush | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
found themselves getting headlines for being girls in rock bands, | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
the New York Times ran an article | 0:56:58 | 0:57:00 | |
suggesting that, even in 2015, girls in bands are an exotic sight. | 0:57:00 | 0:57:05 | |
The New York Times, they wrote a really good article about us, | 0:57:05 | 0:57:08 | |
but the title was "Girls At Work". | 0:57:08 | 0:57:12 | |
And under the picture, it was written, | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
"Savages, a female rock band from London." | 0:57:15 | 0:57:19 | |
A fan took a picture of that little caption, | 0:57:21 | 0:57:24 | |
and they crossed out the word "female". | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
It got a bit mental, like, all our fans retweeted it, | 0:57:27 | 0:57:30 | |
then the next day, when you went back to the New York Times website, | 0:57:30 | 0:57:35 | |
they had changed the title. | 0:57:35 | 0:57:36 | |
We're so used to that macho kind of vision, | 0:57:36 | 0:57:40 | |
and that's just normal, that's just how it is. | 0:57:40 | 0:57:44 | |
As soon you start pointing out that it's not right, that's how, | 0:57:44 | 0:57:49 | |
you know, things can start to change. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:51 | |
# City's full of | 0:57:51 | 0:57:54 | |
# Sissy pretty love, yeah. # | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
Looking back over the decades, | 0:58:00 | 0:58:02 | |
has there been any change for a girl in a band? | 0:58:02 | 0:58:05 | |
I think there must have been a change, but I think it's a bit slow. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:12 | |
What would you like to see in 10, 20 years' time? | 0:58:12 | 0:58:16 | |
I would like... | 0:58:16 | 0:58:18 | |
that when there's a woman | 0:58:18 | 0:58:20 | |
that starts to live a little bit louder than the others, | 0:58:20 | 0:58:25 | |
that she's not labelled feminist. | 0:58:25 | 0:58:28 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
So, you've found yourself in a band. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:35 | |
You might be playing bass to cover the bills, | 0:58:35 | 0:58:37 | |
you could be escaping suburbia | 0:58:37 | 0:58:39 | |
by going out on the road for the first time, | 0:58:39 | 0:58:41 | |
or you could be teaming up with your sibling or your other half | 0:58:41 | 0:58:45 | |
and allowing that relationship to play out through music. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:48 | |
They say it's different for girls. What does that even mean? | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 | |
One thing's clear, we're obsessed with music, | 0:58:51 | 0:58:54 | |
but sometimes you will find there's more to life | 0:58:54 | 0:58:56 | |
than being just the girl in the band. | 0:58:56 | 0:58:59 | |
# Let me tell you what we been doing | 0:58:59 | 0:59:01 | |
# Neon angels on the road to ruin | 0:59:01 | 0:59:05 | |
# Let me tell you what we been doing | 0:59:05 | 0:59:07 | |
# Neon angels on the road to ruin | 0:59:07 | 0:59:11 | |
# Let me tell you what we been doing | 0:59:11 | 0:59:13 | |
# Neon angels on the road... # | 0:59:13 | 0:59:19 |