Joy Division


Joy Division

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Contains very strong language from the start

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'O, God, grant us a vision of our city, fair as she might be.

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'A city of justice where none shall prey on others.

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'A city of plenty, where vice and poverty shall cease to fester.

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'A city of brotherhood, where all success shall be founded on service.

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'And honour shall be given to a nobleman alone.

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'A city of peace where order shall not rest on force

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'but on the love of all for the city.

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'A great mother of the common life and weal.'

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I don't see this as the story of a pop group,

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I see this as the story of a city that, once upon a time,

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was shiny and bold and revolutionary and then suddenly,

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30 odd years later, is shiny and revolutionary all over again.

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And at the heart of this transformation

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is a bunch of groups, and one group in particular.

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'Go further back in time. Further back through time

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'to another set of memories.

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'Tell me what you see.

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'Five, four, three, two, one.'

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I can remember very precisely what Manchester was like in the mid-70s.

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It felt like a piece of history

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that had been spat out.

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This had been the historic centre of the modern world.

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We invented the Industrial Revolution in this town

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and yet, even though we did, we also invented these conditions.

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It was really grimy and dirty.

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Dirty old town.

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You were always looking for beauty because it was such an ugly place.

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Whether, again, on a subconscious level.

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I mean, I don't think I saw a tree till I was about nine.

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'Here are your playgrounds, your porches and sunloungers

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'and whatever else you can use them for.'

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I just remember factories, nothing that was pretty, nothing.

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I remember the first time in Manchester

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seeing all these houses...

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End-to-end terraced houses.

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And then the next time you went, there was just a pile of rubble.

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Then the next time you went, it was sort of like all this building work

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and then by the time you were in your teens, it was this big

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concrete fortress. Quite futuristic at the time.

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And then, of course, concrete can set in and it looks horrible.

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I was born in 1956.

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I lived in my grandparents' house

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and they used to talk about the war all the time.

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My grandparents, since we'd been bombed... House had gone.

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I remember we had a room there and it was full of like gas masks

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and tin helmets, British flags, you know, old radio sets,

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paraphernalia for the war.

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Er, I met Bernard in Salford Grammar School when we were 11.

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You get less for murder, don't you?

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I guess, living in Salford, you're a bit of a nobody, really.

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You know, you didn't have much chance of progressing

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in the world, really. You were thought of as factory fodder.

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So, erm, we just sort of wasted our time together.

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We were really, really normal daft beer boys,

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I suppose you'd have to say.

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I had to have myriad distractions while I was working

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and basically it was reading the Evening News.

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When I was going through the little adverts and the classifieds

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and just scanning them for anything of interest.

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The Sex Pistols, 50p, Lesser Free Trade Hall.

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I thought, "That looks interesting."

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MUSIC: Pretty Vacant by Sex Pistols

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Er, I thought it was shite. It was like a car crash.

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It was like, "Oh, my God!" I'd never seen anything like it in me life.

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I mean, I'd been to see most groups. You know, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin

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but I'd never seen anything as chaotic

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or as exciting and as...

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rebellious.

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It was how I felt.

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You know, you just wanted to trash everything.

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It was a right racket, you know, and you just thought, "Fucking hell,

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"I could do that." You know, "I could just about do that."

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We'd formed a band, then, that night. There and then, we formed a group.

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It's easy to form a group.

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It's all the rest that's difficult. We went to see the second

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Sex Pistols gig when the Buzzcocks supported them.

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And we were in it then.

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We had a meeting with them on Friday evening because they said,

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"But we'd like to start a band but we need some help,"

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and because, like I say, punk being an inclusive thing and we needed

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all the similar-minded people that we could have,

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you know, to make it a growing concern.

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-We advertised for a drummer and singer.

-PHONE RINGS

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One guy rang up and he didn't sound mad and I said, "What's your name?"

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He went, "Ian." I said, "Ian who?" "Ian Curtis." I said

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"Oh." Because there was two guys called 'the two Ians'.

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We advertised for a singer and Ian answered it

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and we met in the pub in Sale.

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To look at him you think, "Christ, you know,

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"quite frightening looking guy."

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Leather pants and combat jacket with HATE on the back getting

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daggers from the locals saying, "What the hell is this? What's he?"

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Pretty dangerous thing to do in 1976 in Manchester.

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I said, "Oh, the two Ians? Right, we met you

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"at the Clash gig the other day,"

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-or whatever, you know.

-And I was going, you know, the punk ideals...

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I went, "Being married? Boring." He went, "I'm married."

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You know, he shows me his wedding ring.

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We thought, "He's such a nice guy."

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We thought, "Oh, yeah, it doesn't matter."

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Like, "Yeah, that's me, that's me." I said, "All right.

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"Yeah, yeah, all right, you've got the job."

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And that was it, over the phone.

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The first set of material we wrote was just us aping punk, really.

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Completely aping it, doing it really badly.

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MUSIC: You're No Good For Me by Warsaw (Joy Division)

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# Don't know what I'm doing Don't know where I'm going

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# Leading me to ruin I should have traded you in

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# Yeah, you think you're something but you're no good for me. #

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# Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck off, fuck off!

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# Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bollocks, bollocks. #

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You know, these really dreadful...

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Dreadful, dreadful songs.

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# No good!

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# Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na

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# No good! #

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I get on the phone expecting some sort of oafish...

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-..punk type...

-HE GRUNTS

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..and it was a very mild-mannered,

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very chatty Ian.

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The first gig that I had with them,

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was the last night of the Electric Circus.

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The Electric Circus was one of the places that we hired

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from bemused hippies on their quiet night

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to put on emerging punk rock.

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'Can you explain to me why you come to the Electric Circus?'

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Cos it's the best place where they put punk rock bands on.

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Cos it's got a great atmosphere.

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He looks like he's just come out of Risley for the day, don't he?

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He wouldn't go and see it, I tell ya.

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-..bottles for plastic punks...

-LAUGHTER

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I wanted to do something for me,

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because look at me now, I'm nothing.

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That's what punk is.

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You can sort of go in and really enjoy yourself,

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you know, jump about a bit, let yourself go. Why not?

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It became a punk club

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and absolutely a very important part of the whole landscape.

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And then suddenly we were saying goodbye to it

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in an emotional weekend do, that was recorded

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rather pitifully by Virgin Records.

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CHANTING

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And, yeah, the Warsaw

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and the 'remember Rudolf Hess' thing,

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and all that kind of nonsense.

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At the time, whenever any of that happened, those of us within it

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had not a moment's doubt

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that it was anything dicey.

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You know, you just sort of trusted somehow

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the instincts of locals that it was not dicey.

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# Can't buy everything, that's true

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# Only one thing wrong with that

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# What it don't buy I don't use. #

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Some guy at work gave me a couple of books.

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One was called House Of Dolls

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and I knew it was about the Nazis

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but I didn't read it.

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And I just flicked through the pages.

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It was the brothel that the soldiers went to,

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and I thought, "Well, it's pretty bad taste

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"but it's quite punk".

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And everyone I told the name to

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went, "That's a great name".

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It sounds too neat and tidy,

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but it almost seems to be that it all came when they had the name.

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It was like Roxy Music or Velvet Underground, you know,

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you knew instantly from the moment it happened, it was one of those names.

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At that stage, when we made our first record,

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An Ideal For Living,

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we just were making this music

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and we wanted people to hear it.

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And it was very much a punk ethos of do-it-yourself, independence,

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forget big labels,

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just small, you know, cottage industries.

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I'd actually forgotten that Ian borrowed the money.

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God, if I did it now, my wife would kill me.

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So, how he got away with it then

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is unbelievable, you know.

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So, we banged it down, heard it in the studio,

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we thought it sounded great.

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You know, a couple of weeks later, we got the vinyl.

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You know, An Ideal For Living,

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I'd drawn the sleeve and that.

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"Right, I know what we'll do, we'll take it to Pips,

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"that local club that we go to."

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Went to the DJ, "Here you are, mate, play our record.

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"It's us, you know, us."

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So, he said, "No, fuck off."

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We were like, "No, come on, it's us.

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"We've been coming here for years, play it."

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So, there's loads of people on the dance floor,

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puts it on and we're like that,

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"Listen to it."

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And the pressing was so bad

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it was like completely muffled.

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So quiet that you wouldn't believe it.

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And it just cleared the dance floor.

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Everyone just walked off

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and he took it off halfway through.

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We were like, "Oh, shit.

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"What have we done?"

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We didn't play for six months, we couldn't get a gig.

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Nobody would give us a gig as Joy Division.

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It was really difficult.

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I think they thought we were yobs, which we were.

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It spurred us on to rehearse and rehearse and rehearse,

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and write and write and write, and get really, really tight,

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so that when we did get a gig,

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we would show the bastards.

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We used to rehearse twice a week,

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and in those three and two hours,

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you'd invariably get a song, you know.

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One!

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We had an enormous factory floor to ourselves.

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In the winter, we used to just brush all the rubbish

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to one end of the room and set fire to it to just keep warm in it.

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We were all on our own island,

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what we were doing,

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and we just really made sure that what WE were doing sounded great,

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and sort of didn't pay any attention to what the others were doing.

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When I played low, I couldn't hear anything at all.

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When I played high I could pick it out, cos of the row,

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cos Barney's amp was really loud.

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Then Ian just latched onto you playing high

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and he'd say, "That sounds good when you play high

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"and Barney plays guitar," you know.

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We should work on that,

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that sounds really distinctive.

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Just a happy accident like that gave us our sound, you know.

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Ian always had a box of words

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and he would just pull some words out

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and start signing them, so he already had them, really,

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cos he would be at home writing every night anyway.

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They had like a battle of the bands night for young bands

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that were just starting out, you know.

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I remember Paul Morley being there in a band,

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Kevin Cummins was in his band,

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I think Richard Boon was in it.

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It was like a joke band, you know, they were having a laugh.

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And everybody, including Joy Division, turned up to be...

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You know, to win, like some weird prototype X Factor.

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This was when I first the other side of Ian.

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Ian was a really lovely, really nice, polite, intelligent guy,

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but if he didn't get what he wanted through being like that,

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he would explode into this kind of frenzied, "Argh!"

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You know, frenzied thing,

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because that's the only way he could get what he wanted.

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I remember him kicking the door down to their dressing room

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and going to Paul Morley and Kevin Cummins,

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they were going, "You're not fucking going on."

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"Right, you're not fucking going on. We'll kill you.

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"If you go on, we'll bottle you."

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"We're going on."

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Ian had previously gone up earlier in the night

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to Tony Wilson to complain.

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Called him a "Cunt", you know,

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he says, "You're a cunt, you."

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Tony was like, "Why, darling?

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"What have I done, darling?"

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And he'd be like, "Well, you won't put us on your..."

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Tony had a TV programme then.

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I didn't answer him, but I know I remember thinking, you know,

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"You're next in the list, you fucking idiot."

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I spend a lot of my days working out how

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I could possibly explain to people how bizarre this is

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that this man would suddenly come to be involved.

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'Tony Wilson reports.'

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The Southwark, Lambeth and Lewisham area health authority

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is the largest single health authority in the country.

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Welcome to the circus.

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He was like seeing an alien with tentacles and eight eyes,

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really, when I first met Tony Wilson, he was just like from another planet.

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He was showbiz, wasn't he, you know? He was a star.

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Tony had So It Goes,

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one of the only platforms

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that championed punk and the new wave.

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And that was wonderful.

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And, strangely, a champion within the establishment.

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There's nothing more establishment,

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particularly to young people, than television.

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Every other band that night at Rafters

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was on stage because they wanted to be on stage,

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they wanted to be rock stars,

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they wanted to be in the music business,

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but this lot were on stage

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cos they had no fucking choice.

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The next day, I remember being in a phone booth

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in Spring Gardens in Manchester,

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just outside the post office there.

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There was a knock on the booth,

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I opened the door, "Yeah?"

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This guy stood there and it was Rob Gretton.

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I knew Rob Gretton because he was one of the other DJs at Rafters.

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I just have this picture in my mind, I can still see,

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of him ranting at me ecstatically

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about how wonderful he thought they were,

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and, "Weren't they the best band you'd ever seen in your life?"

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And he was going to manage them,

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and he was going to take them

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to all sorts of places you wouldn't believe.

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One of the first things that Rob Gretton did when he came along...

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..was he said, "That fucking record you've done..."

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He said, "Get rid of that fucking cover,

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"everyone thinks you're Nazis cos of it.

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"Get rid of that fucking cover.

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"Whose idea was that, you tosser?" You know.

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"So, we're going to do a new cover

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"and were going to press it as a 12 inch so it sounds loud."

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So, he did it and we played it,

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and then it was like, "Wow! He's right, yeah, it sounds fantastic."

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# No love lost

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# No love lost. #

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When he was DJing, I mean, he was playing soul music, I think,

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but his ideology was really punk.

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We'd met a guy called Richard Searling from RCA records.

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Ian was a regular visitor to the RCA offices.

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The main reason for that was that he adored Iggy Pop,

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and they wanted a punk band.

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A punk band.

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I didn't know anybody other than...

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"Oh, Ian's got a band."

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He wanted us to do a cover version of this Northern Soul record

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called Keep On Keepin' On,

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which when he played it to us, we were quite impressed with actually.

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It had a really stonking guitar riff in it.

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MUSIC: Keep On Keepin' On by Nolan Porter

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I think the engineer must have been pretty good.

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I can always remember he tried to get Ian to sound like James Brown.

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Telling him to sing like James Brown.

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He just got a bottle of whisky and... Plying him with whisky

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and telling him to belt it out like James Brown,

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and it's not the way really.

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He just kind of got very fractious and started yelping like a dog,

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and decided we best take him home.

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Punk enabled you to say, "Fuck you."

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But somehow, it couldn't go any further, it was just a single,

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venomous, one syllable, two syllable phrase of anger,

0:19:310:19:34

which was necessary to reignite rock and roll.

0:19:340:19:37

But sooner or later,

0:19:370:19:39

someone was going to want to say more than "fuck you."

0:19:390:19:42

Someone was going to want to say, "I'm fucked."

0:19:420:19:45

And it was Joy Division who were the first band to do that,

0:19:450:19:48

to use the energy and simplicity of punk

0:19:480:19:51

to express more complex emotions.

0:19:510:19:54

Seeing as how this is the programme

0:19:540:19:56

which previously brought you

0:19:560:19:57

first television appearances

0:19:570:19:59

from everything from The Beatles to the Buzzcocks,

0:19:590:20:01

we do like to keep our hand in and keep you informed

0:20:010:20:03

of the most interesting new sounds in the North West.

0:20:030:20:06

This - Joy Division - is the most interesting new sound

0:20:060:20:09

we've come across in the last six months.

0:20:090:20:11

They're a Manchester band, with the exception of the guitarist,

0:20:110:20:13

who comes from Salford. Very important difference.

0:20:130:20:16

They're called Joy Division. This number is Shadowplay.

0:20:160:20:19

# To the centre of the city where all roads meet, waiting for you

0:21:000:21:05

# To the depths of the ocean where all hopes sank, searching for you

0:21:070:21:11

# Moving through the silence without motion, waiting for you

0:21:140:21:19

# In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth... #

0:21:200:21:26

When Tony started doing the Factory nights, there was

0:21:440:21:46

always this kind of void.

0:21:460:21:49

There was the band, then there was nothing

0:21:490:21:53

and then there was some people, sort of lurking.

0:21:530:21:58

Second time, the sort of void was getting sort of narrower and

0:21:580:22:03

narrower, so that eventually there was even the odd person dancing.

0:22:030:22:08

Wahey, we've got an audience now.

0:22:080:22:10

I saw them and I was just absolutely astounded. It was unbelievably good.

0:22:100:22:15

And I felt so in awe of somebody I knew.

0:22:150:22:17

Ian's just there and he starts that dance.

0:22:170:22:20

Which I'd seen the very, kind of, like, seize of.

0:22:200:22:23

And it was otherworldly.

0:22:230:22:25

And I'm thinking, "This is Ian, who kind of buys flowers for his wife."

0:22:250:22:29

And he's up on stage and it's...

0:22:300:22:32

..totally inspirational and hypnotic. And I am...

0:22:340:22:37

I'm sold to it. I've bought it. Totally.

0:22:380:22:41

# To the centre of the city where all roads meet, waiting for you

0:22:450:22:49

# To the depths of the ocean where all hopes sank, searching for you

0:22:510:22:55

# I was moving through the silence without motion, waiting for you

0:22:570:23:02

# In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth... #

0:23:030:23:08

You would just be drawn into it.

0:23:220:23:24

It functioned like those shaman things do.

0:23:240:23:27

You're just kind of pulled into the moment.

0:23:270:23:30

A very interesting band about time,

0:23:300:23:31

because they're very informed by the past,

0:23:310:23:34

but also you're always propelled into just a moment of present with them.

0:23:340:23:38

Time sort of stops.

0:23:380:23:41

# In the shadowplay, acting out your own death, knowing no more... #

0:23:410:23:46

They were just absolutely stunning. I couldn't believe it.

0:23:460:23:49

I'm getting real goose bumps now,

0:23:490:23:51

because I can remember it,

0:23:510:23:53

but not in my head, in my stomach.

0:23:530:23:55

This just got me there, you know... Just BOOF!

0:23:550:23:58

# But I could only stare in disbelief as the crowds all left... #

0:24:000:24:04

We were only originally going to have two songs.

0:24:090:24:11

And then do a short film about what was happening within Manchester with

0:24:110:24:17

Anderton, who was a very right wing and very vociferous Chief Constable.

0:24:170:24:23

He believed he spoke directly to God every night.

0:24:230:24:25

He believed that God sent him messages.

0:24:250:24:27

And it felt really, genuinely threatening.

0:24:270:24:29

It felt like there was a bad moon rising.

0:24:290:24:32

It felt like there was bad shit on the way.

0:24:320:24:35

Well, there was, actually. The sewers were up at the time.

0:24:380:24:41

A great metaphor for whatever the fuck was going on.

0:24:410:24:45

And then you had the looming Thatcher thing creating this

0:24:450:24:48

consumerist/fascist society.

0:24:480:24:51

And then we cut to, if you like, the underground

0:24:510:24:54

feel of the rehearsal rooms, where it's almost like a resistance group.

0:24:540:24:58

That was the idea to get across, that this was a resistance.

0:24:580:25:02

Through art and culture.

0:25:030:25:05

When Tony sat with Alan and I for Christmas '78, and said...

0:25:070:25:13

"I think we might...or we could do a record from the club for the

0:25:140:25:18

"bands that haven't got contracts yet." This was just like...

0:25:180:25:22

..terribly, terribly exciting.

0:25:230:25:25

Suddenly we had a producer, and his name was Martin Hannett.

0:25:250:25:28

Why?

0:25:350:25:37

Oh, right.

0:25:380:25:40

So what was the first thing you did for them... Ideal for them?

0:25:490:25:51

# Feel it closing in

0:26:040:26:07

# Feel it closing in

0:26:070:26:09

# The fear of whom I call

0:26:090:26:12

# Every time I call

0:26:120:26:15

# Feel it closing in

0:26:150:26:17

# Feel it closing in

0:26:170:26:20

# Day in, day out Day in, day out

0:26:200:26:23

# Day in, day out Day in, day out

0:26:230:26:26

# Day in, day out Day in, day out... #

0:26:260:26:29

The lyrics of Digital are actually digital.

0:26:300:26:37

There's on-off, day in, day out, day in, day out. They're switching.

0:26:370:26:43

There's also, somehow...

0:26:430:26:46

Weirdly related to

0:26:460:26:48

Curtis's persona itself.

0:26:480:26:52

Which, as we know now, is bipolar.

0:26:520:26:56

On the one hand, we have the lad going down the pub with his mates,

0:26:560:27:00

fooling around.

0:27:000:27:01

On the other hand, we have the aesthete who's reading poetry

0:27:010:27:05

and imbibing himself with all kinds of highfalutin ideas

0:27:050:27:09

that he's going to be a romantic pop star hero.

0:27:090:27:12

Ian just looks straight into the camera while he's smoking.

0:27:120:27:17

It's the eyes, like, the translucency of his eyes

0:27:170:27:21

looking into the camera that sends a chill through people.

0:27:210:27:24

16, 17, 18, 20 and 21 - we are getting there.

0:27:270:27:33

One was in silhouette and there was one

0:27:330:27:35

when they came slightly out of the passageway and we got some sidelines.

0:27:350:27:39

Already, by then, I've shot two thirds of a roll of film

0:27:410:27:44

and I'm conscious of the fact that I didn't really think I had anything.

0:27:440:27:49

I'm walking up the bridge and they're waiting for me.

0:27:490:27:52

And I just felt it looked so bleak and they were

0:27:520:27:55

so un-rock 'n' roll-like

0:27:550:27:58

that I took two frames and then took an upright shot

0:27:580:28:01

of the same thing. And that's all I did of that picture.

0:28:010:28:04

And that's, I guess,

0:28:040:28:07

become probably the most recognised Joy Division image.

0:28:070:28:11

The whole idea was to get your band signed to a major.

0:28:210:28:24

And I was sitting in The Band On The Wall

0:28:240:28:26

one Sunday night with Gretton,

0:28:260:28:28

who suddenly turns to me and goes...

0:28:280:28:31

"Why don't we do our first album with you and then

0:28:310:28:33

"go to Warner Brothers?" I remember far from being,

0:28:330:28:36

"Wow," it was like, "Are you sure? How much is that going to cost?"

0:28:360:28:39

"Martin says it will cost 10 grand." It cost 25, the bastard.

0:28:390:28:42

With Unknown Pleasures, I think we had three weekends.

0:28:560:28:59

Could be wrong, but I think it was three weekends to record

0:28:590:29:02

and mix it.

0:29:020:29:04

So we'd played them all live, so the first thing

0:29:040:29:06

we did with Martin was to just get them recorded in the studio.

0:29:060:29:10

And then it would be experimentation time

0:29:100:29:12

and he'd start putting wacky noises on it.

0:29:120:29:14

Like, he recorded a lift shaft.

0:29:140:29:16

It was kind of like you were going on some sort of strange

0:29:190:29:23

science fiction-based journey.

0:29:230:29:27

There was a lot of pot smoked.

0:29:270:29:29

He wouldn't say to you, "I want you to do it like this."

0:29:290:29:34

It was kind of, "Oh, do it again, but a bit more cocktail party."

0:29:340:29:40

Or, "A bit more yellow."

0:29:400:29:43

-"Magnificent but humble."

-"Faster but slower."

0:29:430:29:46

Whether it was pot

0:29:460:29:47

or whether it was the Zen school of production, I don't know.

0:29:470:29:51

-'Are we all ready?'

-'Let's try one!'

0:29:510:29:53

LAUGHING: 'You fucking prick.'

0:29:550:29:58

-'He's a United fan.'

-'Fuck off, Ian.'

0:29:580:30:01

Memorably, he had the AMS - a digital delay line.

0:30:010:30:05

You press the button and then hit the snare drum. You go... Oh!

0:30:050:30:09

There's my snare drums in the box now. How have you done that,

0:30:090:30:12

Martin? That's amazing.

0:30:120:30:13

It was using that machine that Martin changed drum sounds forever.

0:30:130:30:17

But I never knew that Martin was significantly

0:30:170:30:19

involved in creating the machine.

0:30:190:30:22

These two strange whizz kids from AMS,

0:30:220:30:26

Burnley, Lancashire, England, had discovered Hannett and...

0:30:260:30:31

once a month, they would meet him

0:30:310:30:33

in a car park on top of the moors in between Manchester and Burnley.

0:30:330:30:36

And this lunatic...

0:30:360:30:38

GUNSHOT

0:30:380:30:39

..stroke drug addict would clamber out of his old Volvo,

0:30:390:30:43

into the back of their car, and would rabbit on for 30 minutes

0:30:430:30:47

about the sounds he was imagining in his head.

0:30:470:30:50

Now this is possibly heresy.

0:30:500:30:53

I think Martin

0:30:530:30:55

proposed a way to understand Joy Division.

0:30:550:30:59

He heard something, he saw something,

0:30:590:31:02

he felt something from them...

0:31:020:31:04

..and was able to project in his mind what it could be.

0:31:060:31:11

Well, the songs were great anyway.

0:31:110:31:13

Martin didn't write them. He only produced them.

0:31:130:31:16

He started, you know, chipping in when we needed him,

0:31:160:31:19

but that's the job of a producer anyway, really.

0:31:190:31:22

I just remember the whole...

0:31:220:31:23

The sleeve, you know,

0:31:230:31:25

it was just an uncanny moment,

0:31:250:31:27

because it did belong in your collection,

0:31:270:31:29

next to Roxy Music, next to Velvet

0:31:290:31:31

and it didn't look wrong next to, you know, Diamond Dogs.

0:31:310:31:34

It was a great piece of work,

0:31:340:31:36

but it didn't borrow any of that language, any of that visual language.

0:31:360:31:39

It was totally itself and it couldn't work out how, where it had come from.

0:31:390:31:43

I made the cover

0:31:430:31:45

that I would've wanted

0:31:450:31:47

had I found it in a record rack.

0:31:470:31:50

And nobody, um...

0:31:500:31:53

obliged me to do otherwise.

0:31:530:31:56

Hadn't heard the music.

0:31:560:31:57

They'd given me the elements. I mean, the wave pattern is astonishing.

0:31:570:32:02

I mean, I mean, what an amazing image

0:32:020:32:04

for something called Unknown Pleasures.

0:32:040:32:06

HEARTBEAT AND DISTORTED SOUNDS

0:32:060:32:09

I took it to Rob's house.

0:32:090:32:11

I took the artwork to Rob...

0:32:110:32:14

..and he said, "I have a test pressing."

0:32:140:32:16

"Do you want to listen to it?"

0:32:160:32:17

I didn't know if I could sit through 40 minutes of Joy Division.

0:32:170:32:21

Especially in front of their manager!

0:32:210:32:23

Um...

0:32:240:32:26

but I couldn't really say no.

0:32:260:32:28

And within moments,

0:32:280:32:31

I knew that I had a part in a kind of life-changing experience.

0:32:310:32:36

Minute after minute was beyond anything...

0:32:390:32:42

I could've expected.

0:32:420:32:43

It was just...

0:32:450:32:46

beyond.

0:32:460:32:48

It was astonishing.

0:32:480:32:49

Just as soon as it started

0:32:490:32:51

and the drums sounded like no drums had ever sounded

0:32:510:32:54

and everything seemed to belong in its own space

0:32:540:32:57

and not quite connecting somehow, something amazing had happened.

0:32:570:33:00

MUSIC: Disorder by Joy Division

0:33:000:33:04

# I've been waiting For a guide to come

0:33:230:33:25

# And take me by the hand

0:33:250:33:26

# Could these sensations make me Feel the pleasures of a normal man?

0:33:280:33:32

# These sensations barely interest me For another day

0:33:340:33:37

# I've got the spirit Lose the feeling

0:33:390:33:42

# Take the shock away. #

0:33:420:33:43

When Unknown Pleasures came out, it was sort of like,

0:33:480:33:52

this is the ambient music from my environment.

0:33:520:33:55

My thing about Joy Division - they're an ambient band, almost.

0:33:550:33:59

You don't see them function as a band,

0:33:590:34:02

it's just the noise around where you are.

0:34:020:34:05

It was almost like a science-fiction interpretation of Manchester.

0:34:050:34:08

You could recognise the landscape, the mindscape and the soundscape as being Manchester.

0:34:080:34:12

It was extraordinary that they'd managed to...

0:34:120:34:14

make Manchester international, if you like, make Manchester cosmic.

0:34:140:34:18

# It's getting faster Moving faster now

0:34:180:34:21

# It's getting out of hand

0:34:210:34:23

# On the 10th floor Down the back stairs

0:34:240:34:26

# It's a no man's land

0:34:260:34:28

# Lights are flashing Cars are crashing

0:34:300:34:32

# Getting frequent now

0:34:320:34:34

# I've got the spirit Lose the feeling

0:34:350:34:38

# Let it out somehow. #

0:34:380:34:41

Unknown Pleasures is also of course a very iPod-ed kind of world.

0:34:450:34:50

It's urban, but it's not.

0:34:500:34:53

It's about a landscape.

0:34:530:34:57

But that landscape is primarily an interior landscape,

0:34:570:35:02

and so what is very, very important about it now

0:35:020:35:08

is to see where we've travelled from since then

0:35:080:35:14

and exactly why it still sounds so bloody contemporary.

0:35:140:35:20

# Who is right and who can tell and who gives a damn right now?

0:35:260:35:30

# Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know

0:35:320:35:36

# Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know

0:35:380:35:41

# Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know

0:35:430:35:47

# I've got the spirit

0:35:510:35:52

# But lose the feeling

0:35:540:35:55

# I've got the spirit

0:35:570:35:58

# But lose the feeling

0:35:590:36:01

# Feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling

0:36:030:36:06

# Feeling, feeling, feeling. #

0:36:060:36:09

When Unknown Pleasures came out, it got universal, critical acclaim.

0:36:190:36:23

It must be only me and Bernard in the whole bleeding world

0:36:230:36:26

that don't like Unknown Pleasures,

0:36:260:36:29

which is quite ironic.

0:36:290:36:31

-The only thing we agree on.

-HE LAUGHS

0:36:310:36:33

I mean, Unknown Pleasures, I admit, even after we recorded it,

0:36:360:36:40

I found it quite difficult to listen to it myself cos it was so dark.

0:36:400:36:43

I don't think the production helped, cos that made it darker.

0:36:440:36:47

Even darker still.

0:36:470:36:49

But I felt, "Well, no-one is going to listen to this.

0:36:490:36:52

"It's too bloody heavy!

0:36:520:36:54

"It's too impenetrable."

0:36:540:36:56

SONG: I Remember Nothing

0:36:560:36:57

# We were strangers

0:37:000:37:08

# We... #

0:37:110:37:15

I think, also, in our lives, we'd all had very dark experiences.

0:37:150:37:20

You know, we were only, like, 21, but I would say, for me,

0:37:200:37:24

I'd had a lot of death and illness in the family.

0:37:240:37:26

To experience such things at a young age

0:37:260:37:28

makes you quite a serious person.

0:37:280:37:31

Ian, I guess, in his line of work, what he did was quite serious.

0:37:310:37:34

She's Lost Control was about a girl

0:37:470:37:50

that he worked with at a disability centre that came in to see him.

0:37:500:37:57

I think he really liked her, thought she was a nice girl.

0:37:570:38:01

He was trying to get her work at different places.

0:38:010:38:03

One day, she didn't come in. She'd died from a fit.

0:38:030:38:06

He was quite shocked by that.

0:38:080:38:11

This was before he had epilepsy himself.

0:38:110:38:14

So he wrote She's Lost Control about her.

0:38:140:38:17

You can see them now

0:38:170:38:19

as Ian Curtis sings the brilliant She's Lost Control.

0:38:190:38:21

# Confusion in her eyes that says it all

0:38:400:38:43

# She's lost control

0:38:430:38:44

# And she's clinging to the nearest passerby

0:38:460:38:49

# She's lost control

0:38:490:38:51

# And she gave away the secrets of her past

0:38:520:38:55

# And said she's lost control again

0:38:550:38:59

# And of a voice that told her when and where to act

0:38:590:39:01

# She said, I've lost control again... #

0:39:010:39:04

In September '79, we turned over to BBC Two

0:40:010:40:05

and I'd never seen a TV performance like it.

0:40:050:40:08

Ian Curtis's performance and the band's performance

0:40:100:40:12

just totally broke through the plastic of the medium -

0:40:120:40:15

going from musicians who couldn't even play their instruments,

0:40:150:40:18

suddenly they were a super group.

0:40:180:40:21

I was just astonished to see this.

0:40:210:40:23

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:40:230:40:27

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:40:290:40:33

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:40:350:40:39

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:40:410:40:45

# Well, I would call out when the going gets tough

0:40:470:40:50

# The things you've learnt are no longer enough

0:40:500:40:53

# No language, just sound

0:40:530:40:55

# That's all we need know

0:40:550:40:56

# To synchronise love to the beat of the show

0:40:560:41:00

# And we could dance

0:41:010:41:05

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:41:050:41:09

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:41:100:41:14

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio

0:41:160:41:20

# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio... #

0:41:220:41:26

They must have had a sense within the unit

0:41:320:41:34

that they'd done something special.

0:41:340:41:36

Ian's ambition, obviously, was the one, ultimately,

0:41:360:41:40

that created the great catastrophe.

0:41:400:41:42

But I think the others had their own ambition within that,

0:41:420:41:45

even if it was just to be the greatest bass player on the planet.

0:41:450:41:48

I just wanted us to be how we sounded live.

0:41:480:41:50

It was purely that.

0:41:500:41:51

I didn't want it to sound melancholy,

0:41:510:41:53

I didn't want it to last,

0:41:530:41:54

I wanted it just to lop people's heads off like Iggy Pop live.

0:41:540:41:59

I wasn't interested in depth or anything,

0:41:590:42:01

I just wanted to, you know, kick 'em in the teeth.

0:42:010:42:04

DISTORTED / MUFFLED MUSIC

0:42:250:42:28

Joy Division sounded like no-one else.

0:42:500:42:52

Very, very powerful onstage. Ian onstage was something fascinating.

0:42:540:43:00

He sang and he danced in a unique way.

0:43:000:43:03

Plan K, that was... That was kind of like...

0:43:050:43:08

Ian had met Annik.

0:43:100:43:11

They never travelled much, I think, as teenagers.

0:43:110:43:15

When they first went to Europe, yeah, I think,

0:43:150:43:17

something really happened for them.

0:43:170:43:19

It's a major milestone.

0:43:190:43:21

You're leaving home turf for the first time.

0:43:210:43:24

We were playing a gig at Plan K.

0:43:240:43:26

Cabaret Voltaire was on the bill.

0:43:260:43:28

It was a converted sugar refinery.

0:43:280:43:31

It was pretty arty.

0:43:310:43:33

We went over there and we thought,

0:43:330:43:35

"Right, you know, we're big-time Charlies."

0:43:350:43:38

The big attraction was that they actually had William Burroughs.

0:43:380:43:42

"Pay it all, pay it all, pay it all back!

0:43:420:43:45

"Play all your reports back."

0:43:450:43:48

The bands would play the concert space.

0:43:480:43:50

The other floors, there was performance art.

0:43:500:43:53

Then one room where they just showed movies.

0:43:530:43:56

"School, showers and swimming pools."

0:43:560:43:58

It was such an arty do. Everyone was so arty, wandering around.

0:43:580:44:02

"Oh, God. Joy Division. They're so wonderfully sublime, darling."

0:44:020:44:06

In French.

0:44:060:44:07

The hilarious one there was

0:44:070:44:08

when Ian decided he was going to get a free book off William Burroughs

0:44:080:44:11

because he felt that he'd read all William Burroughs' books

0:44:110:44:14

and bought them, so for some strange reason,

0:44:140:44:16

he thought that this time

0:44:160:44:17

William Burroughs would give him a free book.

0:44:170:44:21

Bernard and I was most amused.

0:44:210:44:23

We went with Ian to William Burroughs,

0:44:230:44:25

where William Burroughs was reading first, then he was doing a signing.

0:44:250:44:29

He went over. We were pissing ourselves behind the pillar.

0:44:290:44:34

I can't remember what he said.

0:44:340:44:36

Then all I heard was William Burroughs,

0:44:360:44:38

"Ah, fuck off, kid."

0:44:380:44:39

"We have had enough of your con and bullshit."

0:44:400:44:44

Oh, we didn't stop laughing for hours.

0:44:440:44:46

Ian was so embarrassed.

0:44:460:44:48

Ian was a big Burroughs fan,

0:44:480:44:49

because his writing

0:44:490:44:52

was very much

0:44:520:44:53

a post-Industrial nightmare.

0:44:530:44:58

It was about the bigotry

0:44:580:45:02

and lack of ethics.

0:45:020:45:06

Cynical, hate-filled, totalitarian

0:45:060:45:10

greed of Western society gone mad.

0:45:100:45:14

The secret nature of perception... The cut-up. It all seemed to fit...

0:45:140:45:20

and suggest that there was a way to integrate that more artistic

0:45:200:45:24

and literary idea into what was otherwise

0:45:240:45:28

a rather paltry glam rock,

0:45:280:45:31

prog rock wilderness.

0:45:310:45:34

As we became more popular and started doing more and more gigs,

0:45:340:45:37

we just went, "Right... We'll have to give our jobs up now.

0:45:370:45:41

"Stop being semi pro. Fully professional." The Buzzcocks tour

0:45:410:45:45

was our first real sort of experience

0:45:450:45:47

of proper rock and roll, you know,

0:45:470:45:49

and...roadies and all that.

0:45:490:45:52

And of course, their crew and the Buzzcocks crew got up to all

0:45:520:45:57

kind of stupid roadie mischief, as did members of both groups.

0:45:570:46:01

He was pissing in the ashtray, the dirty bastard!

0:46:010:46:04

-A big lump of draw, like that.

-The caretaker came in...

0:46:040:46:07

-There you are, eat that.

-..and he grabbed hold of him,

0:46:070:46:09

while he was pissing in the ashtray!

0:46:090:46:12

-Felt like my head had fallen off.

-And he went, "Oh, oh, oh!

0:46:120:46:14

"You tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it!"

0:46:140:46:17

-He would show you his tattoo.

-Bucket of maggots.

0:46:170:46:19

And coming out of his backside were two hands...

0:46:190:46:23

-Live mice and put them in...

-Yeah, keys in the van.

0:46:230:46:26

So I opened the thing up and it was just full of beer.

0:46:260:46:28

-You must have these...

-He's robbed the bar...

-And these two red stars.

0:46:280:46:32

-I'll have them.

-And the barman came out with about five bouncers.

0:46:320:46:35

-I was like, "You fucking twat!"

-Off his fucking nut,

0:46:350:46:39

hallucinating - inane, laughing grin on his face,

0:46:390:46:41

like a lunatic. He couldn't speak.

0:46:410:46:43

He's French, right? He doesn't understand "fuck off".

0:46:430:46:46

He went, "All right, then. Fuckee offee!"

0:46:460:46:49

Once Joy Division really found their seam,

0:47:200:47:24

they'd almost always start with Dead Souls.

0:47:240:47:27

Now, that track has a very, very progressive, intense build-up.

0:47:270:47:32

It's nearly three minutes before the vocal comes in.

0:47:320:47:36

Now, this gives Ian a chance both to calibrate...

0:47:360:47:40

Position himself to start to read what the atmosphere is,

0:47:400:47:45

coming off the audience,

0:47:450:47:47

to feel how the band behind him are locking in with each other

0:47:470:47:53

on that particular evening and to decide how far he wants to travel.

0:47:530:47:58

A lot of people thought he was off his head on drugs. He wasn't.

0:48:050:48:08

Never ever, ever.

0:48:080:48:11

And... Cos he looked like he was on drugs.

0:48:110:48:14

But he was just... Music seemed to just put him in, like, a trance.

0:48:140:48:19

He'd just start dancing away and he'd go to, like, another world.

0:48:190:48:23

# They keep on calling me

0:48:510:48:53

# They keep calling me... #

0:48:550:48:58

That's Joy Division and it's called Dead Souls.

0:48:580:49:00

Always choose cheery subjects, don't they, these boys?

0:49:000:49:03

Tens of thousands of you are going to sit down and write letters to me

0:49:030:49:06

here at the BBC asking about that.

0:49:060:49:07

I can't really give you a great deal of information,

0:49:070:49:10

except that it's on the Sordide Sentimental label.

0:49:100:49:12

That's sordid with an E added to the end of it to make it look French,

0:49:120:49:15

because indeed, it is French.

0:49:150:49:17

It is available in one or two shops

0:49:170:49:18

and it comes in a sort of folder, which makes it obviously

0:49:180:49:21

larger than a record, and more book-like, in a sense.

0:49:210:49:25

He loved that record. He was so proud, so proud...

0:49:250:49:30

Of the sleeve, of such a beautiful object.

0:49:300:49:34

It was quite funny, because when it did come out in an edition of 1,578,

0:49:340:49:40

Rob was down in London and he was handing them out.

0:49:400:49:44

You know, like, "Have one of these.

0:49:440:49:47

"Just got this over from France. Have one of these."

0:49:470:49:49

And then, you know...

0:49:490:49:51

Two days later they were gone. Disappeared forever.

0:49:510:49:55

And it had been widely distributed on cassette,

0:49:550:49:58

because Peel played it all the time.

0:49:580:50:00

Because he was, you know, feeling sorry for all of those

0:50:000:50:03

who couldn't get a hold of a copy.

0:50:030:50:04

And I promised to play the other side of it tonight. And indeed I shall.

0:50:040:50:07

In fact, I shall do one now.

0:50:070:50:09

FAST: # Walk in silence

0:50:090:50:14

# Don't walk away... #

0:50:140:50:16

Oh, curses, I've forgotten... Sorry, just... Oh, how irritating.

0:50:160:50:20

I'd forgotten that it was a 33 1/3.

0:50:200:50:22

I've remembered about half the times I've played it.

0:50:220:50:26

'French, you say? They flood the country with millions of apples

0:50:260:50:29

'that taste like cardboard and then send us records

0:50:290:50:31

'that play at the wrong speed.

0:50:310:50:32

'Anyway, I was talking about...'

0:50:320:50:35

It's these four young guys, who are standing there smoking, shaking...

0:50:350:50:39

Like this. Yeah, OK. You know, underdressed, malnourished.

0:50:390:50:44

You know, that's what...what I always thought of

0:50:440:50:46

the north of the England.

0:50:460:50:48

It was quite a shock if you came from Holland, where,

0:50:480:50:50

socially, you know, everybody was...taken care of.

0:50:500:50:54

You come to England and it was incredible - extreme poverty.

0:50:540:50:57

And, you know, people drinking and smoking.

0:50:570:51:00

And having just a little shirt on and a thin coat.

0:51:000:51:03

And they stand outside in the winter.

0:51:030:51:06

It was hard to believe these four guys... They are making jokes.

0:51:060:51:11

They were really lads, very young.

0:51:110:51:14

That they could have such a deep, heavy sound...

0:51:140:51:17

And, certainly for Ian, when he was on stage,

0:51:190:51:22

he was coming out of himself.

0:51:220:51:24

He was a different person, possessed by some very strong power.

0:51:240:51:29

He looked like he was coming from another world

0:51:290:51:33

and himself in another world.

0:51:330:51:36

And very, very emotional.

0:51:360:51:38

He looked at the same time very strong and very fragile.

0:51:380:51:42

Very vulnerable, you know?

0:51:420:51:45

I think he was very brave to sing and dance like he was doing.

0:51:450:51:49

We all live very boring, ordinary lives,

0:51:510:51:53

and with our great lead singers, we look at them

0:51:530:51:57

and for that one hour, we live life through their eyes.

0:51:570:52:01

He walks on and he seems a little shy and quiet.

0:52:010:52:05

And he just takes command of the stage.

0:52:050:52:07

The light comes on to him and he goes inside.

0:52:070:52:10

# So take a chance and step outside

0:52:100:52:13

# Take a chance and say you tried... #

0:52:180:52:21

'It was very much as if he was plugged into some kind of huge,

0:52:210:52:26

'electrical voltage

0:52:260:52:28

'that was creating this twitching,

0:52:280:52:32

'jerking...

0:52:320:52:33

'..tranced-out

0:52:350:52:37

'symbol for a human being.'

0:52:370:52:39

# Say you tried

0:52:390:52:40

# Say you tried

0:52:410:52:43

# Say you tried

0:52:440:52:45

# Say you tried

0:52:470:52:48

# Say you tried

0:52:490:52:51

# Say you tried

0:52:520:52:53

# Say you tried

0:52:550:52:56

# Say you tried

0:52:570:52:59

# Say you tried... #

0:53:000:53:01

Once he'd done that thing where he shook himself into a frenzy,

0:53:110:53:16

you just didn't know where it was going to take you.

0:53:160:53:18

He was like a kind of puppet

0:53:180:53:19

and you felt his vulnerability in that puppet-like movement.

0:53:190:53:25

It was a bit like watching performance artists

0:53:250:53:27

who deliberately lacerate themselves, cut themselves.

0:53:270:53:30

Except, with Ian, he didn't bleed,

0:53:300:53:32

but he sacrificed something of himself for you.

0:53:320:53:36

# Say you tried

0:53:510:53:53

# Say you tried... #

0:53:540:53:56

We've played in Europe already, in Holland and Germany.

0:53:570:54:00

And we are going to America.

0:54:000:54:02

We're only going for about two weeks, three weeks.

0:54:020:54:05

But I'd hate to be on the, you know, usual record company,

0:54:050:54:09

where it's sort of... You do all the Odeons.

0:54:090:54:11

I just couldn't do that at all.

0:54:110:54:13

That experience of our supporting the Buzzcocks, it was really...

0:54:130:54:18

Yeah, soul destroying.

0:54:180:54:20

We played a concept at the Hope And Anchor in London.

0:54:230:54:26

I remember Ian being in a weird...

0:54:280:54:31

kind of a little bit childish mood.

0:54:310:54:34

Not quite himself, you know? This was in the morning.

0:54:340:54:37

We drove down, we did the concert

0:54:370:54:39

and only about three people turned up.

0:54:390:54:42

It was about two in the morning, we were driving back up the M1,

0:54:420:54:46

you know, and I had the sleeping bag over me.

0:54:460:54:48

Ian just was moaning about the gig, moaning about the sound

0:54:480:54:52

and moaning about this.

0:54:520:54:53

He said, "Give me that sleeping bag."

0:54:530:54:57

It was just not like him, because he weren't a selfish person at all.

0:54:570:55:00

He turned around, grabbed the sleeping bag off me.

0:55:000:55:02

I said, "Stop pissing around, give it me back."

0:55:020:55:04

And I pulled it, so he pulled it back. I pulled it back

0:55:040:55:08

and then held on to it, so he just wrenched it out of my hands.

0:55:080:55:12

But put it over his head this time and wrapped himself in a ball,

0:55:120:55:17

and then just started making this weird growling sound,

0:55:170:55:21

just growling, you know...

0:55:210:55:23

Growling like a dog.

0:55:230:55:25

The next thing, a hand comes out the sleeping bag,

0:55:250:55:29

bashes out at Steve,

0:55:290:55:31

the other one comes out and punches the windscreen,

0:55:310:55:34

and then he just starts punching,

0:55:340:55:36

and that punching turned into a fully fledged grand mal fit...

0:55:360:55:40

..in the car,

0:55:410:55:43

while Steve was driving.

0:55:430:55:45

So, it was like, "Pull over, pull over, pull over!"

0:55:450:55:47

Dragged him, for his own protection, out of the car

0:55:480:55:51

and held him down flat on the hard shoulder,

0:55:510:55:53

and, you know, dark, middle of the night,

0:55:530:55:55

and just pinned his limbs down

0:55:550:55:56

while he basically had a fit.

0:55:560:55:59

After that, really,

0:55:590:56:00

he just got diagnosed with epilepsy

0:56:000:56:03

and they just started getting more and more frequent.

0:56:030:56:05

Those with epilepsy are going to have a much more difficult life,

0:56:050:56:09

because of the age-old stigma attached to the word epilepsy,

0:56:090:56:13

and the real fear which people have of it.

0:56:130:56:16

We didn't know what to do.

0:56:180:56:19

You know, it's not one of those things that you're used to.

0:56:210:56:25

I mean, we'd certainly never come across people

0:56:250:56:29

who'd had fits before.

0:56:290:56:31

You know, we were there and...

0:56:310:56:35

You know, we didn't know what to say to him.

0:56:360:56:38

Plus, we're men - men don't talk,

0:56:380:56:40

and we certainly didn't talk to each other.

0:56:400:56:43

So we just kind of carried on the way with we were carrying on,

0:56:430:56:45

which was working a lot.

0:56:450:56:46

And didn't give him much quarter, really,

0:56:480:56:51

in which to recover,

0:56:510:56:53

because basically his doctor's advice was...

0:56:530:56:56

..don't drink,

0:56:570:56:59

go to bed early,

0:56:590:57:01

you know, avoid flashing lights.

0:57:010:57:03

Well, he was 22 or something.

0:57:040:57:07

Everything that boys join a band to do...

0:57:070:57:10

..you know, the drink, the drugs,

0:57:120:57:14

the women...

0:57:140:57:16

All of that is sort of

0:57:160:57:18

written out of Ian's script.

0:57:180:57:21

You know, he did have epilepsy, very suddenly it occurred,

0:57:210:57:23

but he also had a very, very, VERY strong...

0:57:230:57:26

Big, you know, grand mal fits.

0:57:270:57:30

It wasn't... No messing about.

0:57:300:57:32

It was very strong.

0:57:320:57:35

Very strong, you know.

0:57:350:57:37

He couldn't pick his daughter up,

0:57:370:57:39

he couldn't drive a car.

0:57:390:57:42

He had to be careful at railway stations

0:57:420:57:44

that he didn't stand too near the edge.

0:57:440:57:46

As I witnessed a few of his fits, you know,

0:57:460:57:49

I can tell you it was really, really frightening.

0:57:490:57:52

It was like he was being possessed by the devil,

0:57:520:57:55

I know it sounds silly to say,

0:57:550:57:56

but he was literally raising from the ground.

0:57:560:58:00

That's how I remember it.

0:58:000:58:01

Nowadays, in the mentally normal patient,

0:58:010:58:05

it should be possible to control fits in at least 85%...

0:58:050:58:09

You've got to take lots of drugs and the drugs that he had to take,

0:58:090:58:12

they were really, really heavy.

0:58:120:58:14

One day he'd come in

0:58:140:58:15

and he'd be laughing his head off and totally happy.

0:58:150:58:17

The next day he'd come in

0:58:170:58:18

and he would be depressed and in tears.

0:58:180:58:23

And he wasn't like that before,

0:58:230:58:25

before the drugs that he was on.

0:58:250:58:27

He wasn't like that, he was much more, didn't have the mood swings.

0:58:270:58:31

The other thing is,

0:58:310:58:33

he obviously had problems with his relationship

0:58:330:58:35

with his girlfriend Annik and his wife,

0:58:350:58:40

that he had to make a life decision there,

0:58:400:58:42

that was very, very, very difficult for him.

0:58:420:58:45

He had a child.

0:58:450:58:46

I don't know what was going on in his mind,

0:58:480:58:50

I really dread to think what was going on in his mind.

0:58:500:58:52

I think he could see limits to the way...

0:58:550:58:59

..he was possibly going with the band,

0:59:010:59:03

and I think the band were about to change,

0:59:030:59:06

because they were becoming much bigger

0:59:060:59:08

and they were on the verge of becoming absolutely huge.

0:59:080:59:10

And creatively and psychologically,

0:59:100:59:12

that must have been a real challenge for him.

0:59:120:59:15

He felt that he was holding us back.

0:59:150:59:17

And he... Which is probably one of the reasons

0:59:170:59:20

why he drove himself so hard...

0:59:200:59:22

..was because he didn't want...

0:59:240:59:26

Because he knew we all wanted it so badly

0:59:260:59:28

and we were all enjoying it so much.

0:59:280:59:29

I think that his problem was that he didn't want to let anybody down.

0:59:290:59:33

People started writing about them in...

0:59:330:59:37

..February 1980 as if they were the Second Coming.

0:59:390:59:42

The weight of expectation upon them

0:59:420:59:45

to come out with, you know,

0:59:450:59:46

the most amazing gig ever,

0:59:460:59:48

every time they played, was enormous.

0:59:480:59:51

I remember standing in the audience at the London University

0:59:530:59:56

and thinking, "Oh, fuck, now they've got us...

0:59:560:59:58

"Now they've got a single."

1:00:001:00:01

MUSIC: Love Will Tear Us Apart by Joy Division

1:00:011:00:05

You would first hear Love Will Tear Us Apart live,

1:00:261:00:29

and you would go,

1:00:291:00:31

"Oh, my God", you know,

1:00:311:00:32

because you did have enough about you to think,

1:00:321:00:35

"That is a fucking great pop song."

1:00:351:00:38

"That could be number one."

1:00:381:00:39

You know, that kind of moment, because it was catchy.

1:00:391:00:42

# Love

1:00:421:00:44

# Love will tear us apart again

1:00:441:00:49

# Love

1:00:491:00:50

# Love will tear us apart again

1:00:501:00:55

# Why is the bedroom so cold?

1:01:011:01:04

# You've turned away on your side

1:01:041:01:08

# Is my timing that flawed?

1:01:081:01:11

# Our respect runs so dry. #

1:01:111:01:15

Possibly one of the greatest songs written in the 20th century

1:01:151:01:18

by anybody,

1:01:181:01:20

because the way it can, in a Shakespearean sense,

1:01:201:01:22

take a Calexico

1:01:221:01:24

or, you know, a Susanna,

1:01:241:01:26

or a fucking Paul Young, or...

1:01:261:01:29

You know, it can take into multiple interpretations

1:01:291:01:32

and constantly releases meaning.

1:01:321:01:37

It was an extraordinary piece of writing,

1:01:371:01:39

just the words,

1:01:391:01:40

let alone that somehow

1:01:401:01:42

these young Northerners managed to find a way

1:01:421:01:44

to sonically piece together music

1:01:441:01:46

that matched the quality of the words.

1:01:461:01:50

None of them realised

1:01:501:01:52

how strong and powerful the music was.

1:01:521:01:54

You know, it's just like a love story.

1:01:541:01:57

Each individual is nothing on their own,

1:01:571:02:01

and when they click together,

1:02:011:02:02

when they are together,

1:02:021:02:04

it's enormous

1:02:041:02:05

and that was Joy Division.

1:02:051:02:07

They just had the light, the spirit.

1:02:071:02:11

When Ian said that he had "the spirit", that was exactly it,

1:02:111:02:14

you know, he was something...

1:02:141:02:17

Some light

1:02:181:02:20

burning inside him.

1:02:201:02:22

He was gifted in a way that he would know

1:02:221:02:27

that this wasn't going to last forever.

1:02:271:02:29

He rang up once and said,

1:02:291:02:31

"Oh, you know, I want to leave the band.

1:02:311:02:34

"I'm going to move to Holland

1:02:341:02:36

"and open a bookshop."

1:02:361:02:37

"Great, that's..."

1:02:391:02:41

Then the next minute, he's like,

1:02:411:02:44

"Oh, we're playing in Bradford on Saturday."

1:02:441:02:47

"I thought Ian was...?"

1:02:471:02:48

"No, no, no, he's changed his mind."

1:02:481:02:50

"Oh, right. OK."

1:02:501:02:52

We would talk about ideas and writers...

1:02:521:02:56

But most of all, he talked about his emotions and about himself,

1:02:581:03:02

and how he was feeling.

1:03:021:03:04

How, every week, he was becoming more and more

1:03:041:03:09

shut off from what people perceived him to be.

1:03:091:03:13

That there were these two people that were Ian Curtis,

1:03:131:03:15

the one that was the media figure and the singer in the band,

1:03:151:03:19

and the actual Ian Curtis, who was hurt, angry, lost...

1:03:191:03:23

..very lonely...

1:03:251:03:26

..and didn't feel that people would treat him with respect

1:03:271:03:31

if he explained who he really was.

1:03:311:03:33

There's no doubt that there is

1:03:351:03:37

something of the 'end point' in Closer.

1:03:371:03:41

Unknown Pleasures is the...

1:03:541:03:56

Is, "Wouldn't it be great to be an artist?

1:03:561:03:59

"Wouldn't it be great to be like Burra and Bowie,

1:03:591:04:02

"and Ballard and Iggy?

1:04:021:04:04

"Wouldn't it be great to be like that?

1:04:041:04:06

"I might have a chance to be like that. Oh, my God," you know?

1:04:061:04:09

And then Closer was the artist.

1:04:091:04:11

That was where he joined those ranks,

1:04:111:04:14

and therefore pulled Unknown Pleasures with him,

1:04:141:04:16

because that was the first step towards becoming that kind of artist.

1:04:161:04:21

If you were,

1:04:421:04:44

at this time, of an inquisitive nature,

1:04:441:04:48

Joy Division was like an advent calendar.

1:04:481:04:50

You'd open up a window and you'd see, you know,

1:04:501:04:52

a gateway to another place.

1:04:521:04:55

You know, there'd be all of these routes out of the world

1:04:551:05:00

into other worlds, parallel worlds.

1:05:001:05:02

The obvious example is Atrocity Exhibition.

1:05:021:05:05

I mean, you want to know, what Atrocity Exhibition?

1:05:051:05:08

And then you find out, "Oh, it's a book by JG Ballard."

1:05:081:05:11

And, erm, it opens up a whole other universe.

1:05:111:05:16

You take some of the references,

1:05:161:05:19

for example, Colony, which is Franz Kafka.

1:05:191:05:25

You take tracks like The Kill

1:05:251:05:29

and see the references to Dostoyevsky or something.

1:05:291:05:33

It's like an education in itself.

1:05:331:05:36

SONG: Atrocity Exhibition

1:05:361:05:37

# This is the way

1:05:371:05:39

# Step inside

1:05:391:05:41

# This is the way

1:05:411:05:42

# Step inside

1:05:421:05:45

# This is the way

1:05:451:05:46

# Step inside

1:05:461:05:49

# This is the way

1:05:491:05:50

# Step inside... #

1:05:501:05:54

I thought Closer got closer to the sound that I particularly wanted.

1:05:541:05:58

Erm, I also enjoyed the experience because we were away in London.

1:05:591:06:03

We were living in two flats.

1:06:031:06:06

Again, there was this kind of hoi polloi...

1:06:061:06:09

sort of party flats

1:06:091:06:11

at one end, and intellectual flats at the other end.

1:06:111:06:15

I was staying with them in that apartment, I remember.

1:06:151:06:18

And I think I was the only girl around.

1:06:181:06:22

She was just sort of...

1:06:221:06:23

..sophistication...

1:06:241:06:26

..to someone from Macclesfield, you know.

1:06:271:06:31

Someone who used to ride pigs for entertainment,

1:06:321:06:35

suddenly confronted with...someone who works in an embassy.

1:06:351:06:39

We were just taking the piss out of them all the time.

1:06:391:06:41

You know, putting cornflakes in their bed, and....

1:06:411:06:44

Just japes. Daft, stupid things.

1:06:441:06:47

But she used to get so wound up, you know.

1:06:471:06:49

There was one night, I remember they had a glass pane in the door.

1:06:491:06:53

And we'd been taking the piss out of them, throwing beer at them

1:06:531:06:55

while they were in bed or something. Something daft.

1:06:551:06:58

And he come, fucking chased us out and we ran in our flat,

1:06:581:07:02

hold the door shut, and she was fucking kicking the door with her...

1:07:021:07:06

With her dressing gown on. Like a fucking bloke would do, you know.

1:07:061:07:10

It was horrible. I thought that was a horrible time.

1:07:101:07:13

Ian had Debbie on his case cos...

1:07:131:07:16

And Hooky had Iris on his case because Ian had Annik there

1:07:161:07:20

and Iris thought that was all wrong.

1:07:201:07:23

We got treated well at the studio at Britannia Row.

1:07:291:07:32

I remember them bringing sandwiches in.

1:07:321:07:34

And tea and stuff. We were like, "Wahey!"

1:07:341:07:37

Posh, you know.

1:07:371:07:39

We used to drive Martin mad, Bernard and I.

1:07:421:07:45

Bernard in one corner, me on the other.

1:07:451:07:47

"Oh, Martin?" And he'd go, "It's your go."

1:07:471:07:50

I'd go, "It's your go. I asked him about the..."

1:07:501:07:52

He'd go, "What are you fucking whispering about?"

1:07:521:07:54

"Nothing, Martin. Nothing."

1:07:541:07:55

Whilst they were there at Britannia Row, Rob had the foresight

1:07:581:08:02

to think, well, we better go and see Peter about a cover.

1:08:021:08:05

Who knows? It could take him weeks.

1:08:051:08:07

It could take him months, so let's go and get him on that now.

1:08:071:08:11

I was very nervous.

1:08:111:08:13

I didn't want to take something from a book or the shelf and say,

1:08:131:08:16

"I like this." And them kind of look at me and think,

1:08:161:08:19

"Well, you're just... You're just hopeless."

1:08:191:08:21

And there was something. There was something I was very excited about.

1:08:211:08:25

It was a body of photographs by a man called Bernard Pierre Wolff.

1:08:251:08:28

And I opened the magazine and put it on the drawing board

1:08:281:08:30

and stepped away.

1:08:301:08:32

And I think they just pointed at one and said, "We want this.

1:08:321:08:34

"We want this for the cover."

1:08:351:08:37

I came to pass that it was going to be called Closer.

1:08:401:08:42

And it was interesting. Closer. Close-er.

1:08:461:08:49

I'd no idea that it was going to be the last thing

1:08:561:09:01

that he did. It's better than Unknown Pleasures.

1:09:011:09:05

The songs are better, everything.

1:09:051:09:07

You know.

1:09:071:09:09

It was a good laugh most of the time.

1:09:111:09:12

The only thing that sort of was sad about it was Ian's illness,

1:09:121:09:16

but he hid that so well most of the time.

1:09:161:09:18

I remember talking to him one night.

1:09:181:09:22

Ian was saying to me that, erm...

1:09:221:09:24

..doing this album felt very strange

1:09:261:09:28

because he felt that all these words were writing themselves.

1:09:281:09:33

And that he'd always, in the past, struggled to complete a song.

1:09:331:09:37

Like, he'd have the start, but he'd always struggle to complete it.

1:09:371:09:40

But he just had the whole song straight off.

1:09:401:09:43

Erm, but he said that, at the same time,

1:09:431:09:45

he had this terrible claustrophobic feeling that he was in a whirlpool.

1:09:451:09:51

And drowning, and he was being pulled down in this whirlpool.

1:09:511:09:54

He was always recording on his own.

1:09:541:09:57

You know, the group would be recording the music

1:09:571:10:01

at a different time.

1:10:011:10:03

The image I would have in mind was Ian was very tired...

1:10:031:10:10

and very, very quiet.

1:10:101:10:12

And every time he would sing,

1:10:121:10:14

he would turn his back and put his hand...

1:10:141:10:21

on his head or on his eyes...

1:10:211:10:24

and he would turn around from the others, just to be in himself.

1:10:241:10:31

SONG: The Eternal

1:10:311:10:34

All the lyrics on the CD are really depressing and sad. Mmm.

1:10:491:10:55

And it's surprising nobody would pay attention.

1:10:551:10:59

We never really talked about his lyrics.

1:10:591:11:01

In fact, we never really listened to his lyrics that much.

1:11:011:11:04

It's only years on, when you see them wrote down,

1:11:041:11:07

when Debbie published them...

1:11:071:11:10

you know, "Oh, my God, is that what he was singing?!"

1:11:101:11:14

Maybe for the others it was more like literature.

1:11:141:11:19

You know, Annik expressed how worried she was,

1:11:191:11:22

how fearful she was.

1:11:221:11:23

And I'm all kind of, "No, no, no, it's just art, it's just an album,

1:11:231:11:26

"for God's sake.

1:11:261:11:28

"It's wonderful, I know, but it's nothing to be frightened of."

1:11:281:11:31

But she said, "Don't you understand, Tony?

1:11:311:11:33

"When he says, 'I take the blame,' he means it."

1:11:331:11:37

And I went, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just art."

1:11:371:11:40

How fucking stupid can you get?

1:11:421:11:45

When he cut himself up with a kitchen knife,

1:11:451:11:47

and, you know, he said he was pissed.

1:11:471:11:50

And when he took his first overdose, you think he'd have stopped

1:11:501:11:54

and sorted it out, and it seems, you know, a complete...

1:11:541:11:58

..unbelievable to me that we didn't stop and sort him out.

1:12:001:12:03

I think he was actually in a hospital.

1:12:031:12:05

But we'd already had a gig booked, right?

1:12:071:12:11

And if we'd booked a gig, it never got cancelled.

1:12:111:12:13

So Tony actually brought Ian down to the gig,

1:12:161:12:20

and he was in no fit state to play.

1:12:201:12:22

I got a phone call, and it was Bernard, and he just said,

1:12:221:12:25

"Oh, Ian's ill, and we've got a gig tonight.

1:12:251:12:28

"We were wondering if you'd like to stand in for him."

1:12:281:12:30

"Alan can go on, sing a couple, and Ian can come and sing a couple."

1:12:301:12:34

But it didn't go down too well with the audience.

1:12:341:12:37

There was a big Victorian glass chandelier suspended above

1:12:371:12:40

the stage, and somebody threw a bottle or a glass,

1:12:401:12:43

and it hit the chandelier square on.

1:12:431:12:45

Bottles started flying, and equipment got trashed.

1:12:451:12:49

Hooky fancied a bit of a fight, I think, at that point.

1:12:491:12:52

So we just kept going, "Right, come on, second assault,"

1:12:521:12:55

and they'd all go out and try and fight the audience.

1:12:551:12:58

But it turned into, you know, a complete fiasco.

1:12:581:13:02

It was horrible and of course not great for Ian,

1:13:021:13:05

cos he immediately thought, "Oh, right, all this is my fault,"

1:13:051:13:09

and he just burst out in tears.

1:13:091:13:11

He just took the blame himself, you know.

1:13:111:13:14

SONG: Isolation

1:13:141:13:16

He said that he was standing in the wings of the stage watching

1:13:271:13:32

the band play without him and he just had this feeling that he was

1:13:321:13:37

looking down and they were carrying on without him...

1:13:371:13:41

and that they were going to carry on without him, which is kind of eerie.

1:13:411:13:45

The Bury gig was on a Tuesday,

1:13:451:13:46

and I said to Tony, "Maybe you should suggest that he come and stay

1:13:461:13:51

"at our house in the country," cos we lived in the country.

1:13:511:13:53

And Ian drove back with us that night after the gig.

1:13:531:13:56

We just sat in the lounge smoking and listening to music.

1:13:571:14:01

That was all we did.

1:14:011:14:04

He stayed at my house for a week. I think he fell out with Debbie and...

1:14:041:14:08

Well, he had fallen out with Debbie.

1:14:081:14:10

He needed somewhere to stay, so he stayed with me for a week,

1:14:101:14:12

which wasn't great for him, cos I was still an insomniac,

1:14:121:14:15

I was staying up till five in the morning.

1:14:151:14:17

I remember coming back from rehearsals one day,

1:14:171:14:19

and we took a short cut through the graveyard, and I said to him,

1:14:191:14:23

"You're lucky, your name could be on one of those stones if you'd have

1:14:231:14:27

"succeeded the other week." And he was like, "Yeah, right. Yeah.

1:14:271:14:31

You know?

1:14:321:14:34

No sort of connection in the response.

1:14:351:14:37

He'd made his mind up...

1:14:401:14:42

I think.

1:14:421:14:44

We read a book on hypnotic regression that...

1:14:441:14:46

Sometimes if you've got problems in the present,

1:14:481:14:52

the regression could unlock, erm...

1:14:521:14:55

..problems that had occurred either in your childhood or,

1:14:561:14:59

if you believed in it, in previous lives.

1:14:591:15:02

And Ian was like, "Oh, that sounds interesting. I'd like to try that."

1:15:021:15:05

So I said, "Why don't we try it now and record it on a cassette?"

1:15:051:15:09

TAPE HISS

1:15:091:15:11

SONG: Decades

1:16:351:16:37

It's not difficult to realise that he was seriously destabilised

1:17:221:17:30

by the whole matrix of things that was going on at that time.

1:17:301:17:36

But he was also on the cusp of exactly what he wanted...

1:17:361:17:41

which was to get out...

1:17:411:17:43

..of Manchester, to travel and see the world, to go to America,

1:17:451:17:49

the land of some of his heroes.

1:17:491:17:52

Why would he want to do himself in the night before that?

1:17:521:17:55

You know, it's 24 hours from Tulsa, isn't it?

1:17:551:17:57

24 hours from the plane to America.

1:17:571:18:00

Going to America on the Monday.

1:18:101:18:13

Ian had gone back to live with his mum and dad by Thursday,

1:18:131:18:17

or something, and he just phoned me on the Saturday or the Friday night

1:18:171:18:22

and said, "I can't come out tomorrow.

1:18:221:18:24

"I'm going to go and see Debbie before we go away."

1:18:241:18:27

That kind of thing. "Uh-oh..." A little bit, you know?

1:18:271:18:31

"It's going to end in tears, at least,

1:18:311:18:32

"or they're going to have an argument."

1:18:321:18:35

So I said, "Are you sure, like? Just come out and have a drink.

1:18:401:18:42

"We'll have a laugh." He was like, "No, I've got to see her."

1:18:421:18:46

I was probably in Belgium for about five days before I was due to

1:18:461:18:50

return to go back to England.

1:18:501:18:52

The last time we spoke together was on the Saturday night.

1:18:521:18:55

It was very short, and I couldn't hear him very well.

1:18:551:18:58

I was in the backstage with lots of people around.

1:18:581:19:02

And he said that it's imperative

1:19:021:19:04

that we have to meet before they go to America,

1:19:041:19:08

otherwise it would be seven or eight weeks without seeing each other.

1:19:081:19:11

And basically, we just agreed that he should call me

1:19:111:19:14

at home the following day, and he told me he was listening to the

1:19:141:19:18

record and was going to watch a film, and he was alone.

1:19:181:19:24

I was the first one that they told.

1:19:311:19:34

It was really weird, because I was sitting down, just about to have

1:19:341:19:38

me Sunday lunch, me and Iris, and the phone rang, literally like that.

1:19:381:19:44

And I went on the phone, and they said, "Oh, this is the police.

1:19:441:19:48

"We're trying to get in touch with Rob Gretton."

1:19:481:19:50

And I said, "He should be at home." They said, "We phoned him at home,

1:19:501:19:53

"he's not there." I said, "What's the problem?"

1:19:531:19:55

And he went, "Oh, well, I'm sorry to tell you this,

1:19:551:19:58

"but Ian Curtis has committed suicide."

1:19:581:20:01

And I went, "Oh, right, OK." And he went,

1:20:011:20:04

"Right, well, OK, if you speak to Mr Gretton, could you get him

1:20:041:20:07

"to call us?"

1:20:071:20:08

And I went, "Yeah, right, OK," and put the phone down

1:20:081:20:12

and went and sat back and had me dinner.

1:20:121:20:15

And then Iris said to me, "Oh, who was on the phone, by the way?"

1:20:151:20:18

I went, "Oh, it's just Ian. He's killed himself."

1:20:181:20:21

And that was it, then. That was the shock of it.

1:20:231:20:27

It was really weird. Horrible.

1:20:271:20:30

When he first tried to commit suicide,

1:20:301:20:32

when he took the overdose, it was a COMPLETE surprise.

1:20:321:20:36

In fact, when he actually did commit suicide and Rob told me,

1:20:361:20:41

I said, "What, he's tried again?" You know, I can't believe it.

1:20:411:20:45

"He's tried again?" And he said, "No, he has. He's dead."

1:20:451:20:48

I was like, "What, he's tried...?"

1:20:501:20:52

He said, "No, he's dead. He's done it."

1:20:521:20:55

Everything then seems a blur after that, really.

1:20:551:20:59

Spent most of the time in the pub.

1:20:591:21:00

Just spent most of the time together, all of us.

1:21:001:21:03

Me, Tony, Terry, Barney, we'd all go and sit together,

1:21:031:21:06

just sit in the pub together. Just couldn't take it in, really.

1:21:061:21:10

It's hard to say, sort of...

1:21:111:21:14

50% sad and 50% angry...

1:21:141:21:18

really.

1:21:181:21:20

Angry at HIM, really,

1:21:201:21:23

a) for being stupid...

1:21:231:21:26

..and doing that

1:21:271:21:29

and angry at myself for not doing something.

1:21:291:21:35

Yeah.

1:21:411:21:42

-ANNIK:

-I arrived in London.

1:21:441:21:45

He never rang, so I thought, "Maybe there's a problem.

1:21:451:21:48

"I should call his parents, at his parents',"

1:21:481:21:50

because that's where he was staying...

1:21:501:21:53

where he was supposed to stay, and when I called...

1:21:531:21:56

..his father just said, "Ian is dead," and he put the phone down.

1:21:571:22:03

And that was it.

1:22:031:22:04

I came home from work and there's this piece of paper.

1:22:081:22:10

I looked at it, and it says,

1:22:101:22:12

"Singer kills himself on eve of tour".

1:22:121:22:14

You think, "This isn't true"...

1:22:141:22:18

and then you get a feeling of anger, where you say, "You twat.

1:22:181:22:22

"Why have you done that?" You know?

1:22:221:22:23

"You bastard. You should have stuck it out with the rest of us."

1:22:251:22:28

We didn't go to the wake.

1:22:301:22:32

I don't think we were welcome, really, somehow.

1:22:321:22:34

I mean, one of my greatest regrets in life is that I didn't go

1:22:341:22:37

and see him, you know, after he was dead.

1:22:371:22:41

I really, really do regret that.

1:22:411:22:43

But I think we was so young, we didn't know what the bloody hell...

1:22:451:22:48

Nobody offered it, you know?

1:22:481:22:49

I think somebody said, "Oh, do you want to go and see him?"

1:22:491:22:52

"Fucking right(!) Do I want to go and see a dead body? Do I fuck!"

1:22:521:22:55

You know, "I'm 22. I'm going to the pub. Fuck that."

1:22:551:22:57

But, you know, I really do regret not seeing him and saying goodbye now.

1:22:581:23:02

I really do.

1:23:021:23:04

There's only Bernard and I that didn't go.

1:23:041:23:06

Everybody else went, you know?

1:23:061:23:08

Lindsay's and my job was to look after Annik.

1:23:081:23:10

I didn't go to the funeral because it was my job to make sure

1:23:101:23:12

Annik got on the plane back to Brussels

1:23:121:23:14

and there was no scene at the funeral...

1:23:141:23:16

..and sent me looking after Annik for five or six days.

1:23:181:23:21

I'm sure Annik probably doesn't remember this much.

1:23:211:23:25

She was playing both albums back-to-back, nonstop...

1:23:251:23:28

HE LAUGHS

1:23:281:23:29

..24 hours a day

1:23:291:23:31

for about the entire time she stayed in the cottage.

1:23:311:23:34

There you go.

1:23:341:23:36

I didn't go to the funeral, but I went to Factory Records

1:23:361:23:38

after the funeral, and they played The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle.

1:23:381:23:41

I always remember that. And I just remember being frozen throughout it,

1:23:411:23:45

and I think we all were, in the room,

1:23:451:23:47

frozen at the aptness and yet the absolute ridiculous

1:23:471:23:53

stupidity that we should be doing this.

1:23:531:23:55

So it was a classic "putting on a brave face", I guess,

1:23:551:23:58

and doing it in a showy way and not really dealing with the emotion.

1:23:581:24:05

It was almost like we were just too damned self-conscious

1:24:051:24:09

about maintaining a ridiculous kind of degraded cool,

1:24:091:24:12

a kind of cool that in a way

1:24:121:24:14

a lot of that thing at that time was meant to destroy.

1:24:141:24:17

But we still, you know, didn't really talk to each other.

1:24:171:24:20

The day Tony phoned me to tell me Ian had died, it was during that

1:24:201:24:24

conversation that I suddenly thought of the cover we had.

1:24:241:24:28

And I felt it necessary to point it out.

1:24:311:24:35

And Tony was very concerned.

1:24:351:24:37

The notions of...

1:24:401:24:43

sensationalism or exploitation were lying there, and I said, "Tony,

1:24:431:24:48

"we've got a tomb on the cover of the album."

1:24:481:24:51

And he was like, "Oh, fuck."

1:24:511:24:53

-TONY WILSON:

-Cos Joy Division ends, and because it all ends with a jolt,

1:25:011:25:09

the jolt of a rope...

1:25:091:25:10

..there's a tendency to end the story there,

1:25:121:25:15

and I think the important thing is not to end the story there.

1:25:151:25:20

Why did we decide to carry on? We just carried on.

1:25:201:25:22

We just never even thought, "Should we carry on or not carry on?"

1:25:221:25:26

It was just we went to the funeral,

1:25:261:25:28

we went to the wake at Palatine Road, and then it's, "So...

1:25:281:25:33

"..Monday? Right, see you on Monday, then.

1:25:341:25:37

That was it.

1:25:371:25:39

SONG: Shadowplay

1:25:401:25:42

# I'd do everything

1:25:471:25:50

# Everything I wanted to

1:25:501:25:52

# I let them use you

1:25:541:25:56

# For their own ends

1:25:581:25:59

# To the centre of the city in the night, looking for you

1:26:011:26:05

# To the centre of the city in the night, waiting for you... #

1:26:081:26:12

The beauty of Joy Division, that we did it, four of us.

1:26:151:26:19

Didn't know what we were doing,

1:26:191:26:21

didn't know why we were doing it, and the chemistry was unbelievable.

1:26:211:26:25

And talk to one of us, and we didn't know. Maybe Ian might have known.

1:26:251:26:29

I suppose that's summat we'll never find out.

1:26:291:26:31

But, erm, you know, it was just pure chemistry of four people.

1:26:311:26:35

And it was easy. It was easy writing those songs

1:26:351:26:39

and playing that well. It was easy.

1:26:391:26:43

And it only got difficult when he died.

1:26:431:26:46

SONG ENDS

1:27:071:27:08

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1:27:081:27:10

The revolution that Joy Division created

1:27:101:27:15

and were at the heart of and inspired many other people to take

1:27:151:27:18

part in, of not differentiating between dance and rock,

1:27:181:27:23

has resulted in this modern city,

1:27:231:27:25

in what was the original modern city becoming again a modern city.

1:27:251:27:30

MUSIC: Blue Monday by New Order

1:27:301:27:33

The vibrancy of the city, the expectations of the city,

1:27:401:27:44

all those things are the legacy of Joy Division.

1:27:441:27:47

I think what they managed to do had a kind of truth to it that has

1:27:491:27:52

sustained through the fluctuations of fashion, an integrity,

1:27:521:27:57

something you can believe in,

1:27:571:27:59

something that didn't seem to be just for the money, for the career.

1:27:591:28:01

It was anti-industry,

1:28:011:28:03

all the things that ultimately have seemed important to the

1:28:031:28:06

maintenance of popular culture,

1:28:061:28:08

the reinvention of what cool is.

1:28:081:28:10

Those that exploit, you know,

1:28:101:28:13

can make good use of something like Joy Division,

1:28:131:28:16

because it explains some of the rules of what it is to be cool.

1:28:161:28:20

The two works are Unknown Pleasures and Closer, and that's it.

1:28:201:28:27

Everything else is merchandising...

1:28:271:28:31

..merchandising of memory.

1:28:321:28:35

We live in a time where brands are everything.

1:28:361:28:40

But Joy Division were beyond all that,

1:28:401:28:43

because you could simply trust what they were doing.

1:28:431:28:46

Joy Division in particular, Factory in general,

1:28:461:28:49

Ian's story...

1:28:491:28:51

is one of the last true stories in pop.

1:28:511:28:55

There are very few true stories...

1:28:551:28:59

in a business-dominated pop culture.

1:28:591:29:01

Yes, it's a fabulous story,

1:29:021:29:04

the story of the rebuilding of a city that begins with them,

1:29:041:29:07

the story of a tragic suicide and a moral story and a cultural,

1:29:071:29:13

academic, intellectual, aesthetic story.

1:29:131:29:15

But at the heart of it, it's only here cos they wrote great songs,

1:29:151:29:18

and great songs never die.

1:29:181:29:20

MUSIC: Atmosphere by Joy Division

1:29:211:29:23

# Walk

1:29:231:29:27

# In silence

1:29:271:29:31

# Don't walk away

1:29:311:29:34

# In silence

1:29:351:29:39

# See the danger

1:29:391:29:42

# Always danger

1:29:431:29:47

# Endless talking

1:29:471:29:51

# Life rebuilding

1:29:511:29:54

# Don't walk away

1:29:551:29:57

# Walk

1:30:271:30:31

# In silence

1:30:311:30:35

# Don't turn away

1:30:351:30:38

# In silence

1:30:391:30:43

# Your confusion

1:30:431:30:47

# My illusion

1:30:471:30:50

# Worn like a mask of self-hate

1:30:511:30:54

# Confronts and then dies

1:30:551:30:59

# Don't walk away... #

1:30:591:31:01

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