Episode 3 Dragons' Den


Episode 3

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Tonight, on Dragons' Den...

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I could do all of this myself.

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-Yeah.

-So I don't need you, then?

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This is not unique.

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You're in for a disaster.

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I think this is right up your alley.

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Is it cos I do that?

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SHE LAUGHS

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I think you have done a great job.

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So I'm going to make you an offer.

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I'll make you an offer.

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I'm also going to make you an offer.

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Give me an answer.

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Welcome to Dragons' Den.

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The Dragons have built empires by spotting

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great business opportunities,

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but here, only the entrepreneurs

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who can offer big returns will get a vital cash investment.

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The rest will walk away with nothing.

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First to face the fire of the Dragons

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is French entrepreneur Sylvain Preumont...

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..who believes he has a mini product with maximum potential.

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So, the first reaction most people have is they find it amazing.

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They find it so surprising.

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They have a feeling of, "Hey, the future is now."

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But will the Dragons see a future in his business idea?

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Is that me?

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No, that's him.

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It's him.

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Hi, Dragons. My name is Sylvain Preumont.

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I'm here today to offer you 15% of my company in return for £80,000.

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Mini You is the ultimate selfie and you know how people

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love selfies these days.

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So, how does this work?

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Well, people come in our 3-D scanning booths, they get scanned,

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they get taken 60 pictures, each and every angle, all at once,

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and then our technology analysed those pictures,

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stitched them together for 3-D printing.

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We can do it in chocolate, metal, we call it scandle,

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which is basically a candle.

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We have done that for years.

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We have partnered with Selfridges,

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Harvey Nichols and also with Le Bon Marche in Paris

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and with your investment, what I want to do is to spin off

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that business from my current company into a dedicated company.

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So, I will definitely welcome your questions, but before that,

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I wanted to show you what we're talking about more closely.

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An intriguing pitch from London-based Sylvain Preumont...

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You get one.

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..who wants a sizeable £80,000 investment to help launch a

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new miniature model business. In return, he's offering a 15% stake.

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-Chocolate?

-Yes, absolutely.

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No, don't tell me. Scandle?

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Online innovator Nick Jenkins may have made his fortune

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in the personalised greeting cards business,

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but will he see similar potential in Sylvain's statue selfies?

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What kind of a person wants a statue of themselves?

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Because I don't want a statue of myself.

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I mean, God, you know, I don't even like having my photograph taken,

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let alone a statue.

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That would be an ugly thing to have on my desk.

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I mean, I'd be mortified if anyone gave me a statue.

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Yeah, but some people might want that of you.

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The market of people who want a statue of me is small.

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Take that from me.

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I'm concerned about the market.

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A lot of people would have maybe the same reaction as yourself.

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"Oh, I don't want to see myself like that."

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But a lot of people think the exact opposite.

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"I want that, that's cool, that's different, that's new."

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We've seen people returning and doing another one and we have been

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successfully producing almost 2,000 of them, selling for £150.

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People come and do that for special events in life,

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when they are, maybe, pregnant

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because they want to remember what they were at that moment.

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OK. This is very clever, by the way.

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-It is.

-Thank you.

-I mean, I'm very impressed with the printing of it.

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The colour, less so. But the actual accuracy is fantastic.

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The entrepreneur believes there's a demand for his lifelike miniatures.

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Now, Touker Suleyman wants to understand

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how his 3-D printing business works.

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-Who owns the scanner?

-Me.

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-You own the scanner?

-Well, the company, yeah.

-The company.

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Whoever invests, does the scanner come into it

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-or that's a separate business?

-No, of course.

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When I will spin off and create that new company,

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I will put in everything I have.

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When you say "spin off", I mean, you have another company as well?

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Yeah, at the moment, I make the logo you see here

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is the company I'm running for, like, the last three years,

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selling 3-D printers.

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What's the turnover of that company?

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That company, I mean, I'm not into offering that company.

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No, but if I'm investing in you, I just want to know.

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It's not that big.

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It has a physical store and it has a website selling 3-D printers.

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Related to Mini You would be put in there...

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You're not answering my question.

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I'm sorry, but this is bizarre.

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Really?

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-You've got a company that has a printing business...

-Yes.

-..for 3-D.

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You're selling the printing capability to do this.

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You're offering us nothing because, basically,

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I could go to your company tomorrow, buy the printer,

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hire somebody for £40,000 and own 100% of the company.

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But the printer that you need to do THIS is not one of those

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that I sell.

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The printer you need to do this costs £70,000.

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-Yeah.

-It's a different type of thing.

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Yeah, but you're asking me for 80,000 for 15%.

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-Of a business...

-Of a business that doesn't yet exist.

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So I could still buy the printer myself.

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I could do all of this myself.

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Yeah, technically.

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Yeah, that's great, but thanks for telling me. So I don't need you, then, now.

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The revelation that anyone can own the 3-D technology manufacturing

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Sylvain's models raises a red flag in the Den.

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He's already been reluctant to answer a question

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about the turnover of his printing company.

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Now, Deborah Meaden wants transparency on the model business

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he's here to pitch.

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Can I just understand the profile of your sales.

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So, you've had three years.

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-Yes.

-And what was your profit?

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The problem is it's not easy for me to give you an answer for that

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because, as you understand, it was not a separate business,

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it was part of an existing business, so...

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Yeah, but for you to... When you separate a business out,

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you've got to be able to say that is the value of the business

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-that I am separating out.

-OK.

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That's all I'm asking you.

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This is not a trick question.

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It's not even... Well, it shouldn't be a difficult question.

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I have generated in the past three years, that's your question?

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Um, let's say...

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..anywhere between £50,000 and £100,000.

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I'm not, I'm not...

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You can't throw your arms in the air and say...

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-No, sorry...

-"..well, maybe between

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"£50,000 and £100,000." Give me an answer.

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The best guess I can give you is probably 50,000 over the past.

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£50,000 over three years or £50,000 a year?

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-Over the three years...

-So, 15,000, 16,000 a year?

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To be fair, I don't want to...

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That was incredibly painful.

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-Sorry about that.

-What you're basically saying is it generates

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-£15,000 to £16,000 profit a year?

-Yeah.

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Sylvain's on a collision course with Deborah Meaden over how turnover is

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split between sales of his scanning business

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and sales of his 3-D models.

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There's nothing that exasperates the Dragons more

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than an entrepreneur who is unclear about what

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he's bringing to the table.

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But now there's some clarity on the numbers,

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can Sarah Willingham find a moneymaking opportunity in Mini You?

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So you own scanner, you don't own the printer,

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you don't own any technology.

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You are selling the idea of us to invest in a business which has a

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relationship with Selfridges, Harvey Nicks and Le Bon Marche?

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That's it currently?

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Yeah. Plus all the... Yeah.

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Is that worth the additional £500,000

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that you've put on the valuation?

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Um, that's what I believe.

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But what I think and the reason why I'm here today is because with your

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expertise, your network, your marketing,

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and my technical expertise and experience, together,

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that makes something that works.

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But, Sylvain, I think you've just explained why WE add

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half a million pounds worth of value.

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I'm not entirely sure why YOU add half a million pounds

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worth of value, because you've just explained exactly what this

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business needs, which is with us, pointing to one of us,

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-with our expertise...

-Yeah, uh-huh.

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..and our marketing and our exposure

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and all the things we can bring.

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So, what I do is I make that happen.

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You make what happen? You get our money?

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-Yeah, you...

-The added value is coming from THIS side of the room,

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not THAT side of the room.

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So I'm really sorry, Sylvain, but I won't be investing, I'm out.

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Summary dismissal from a damning Deborah Meaden.

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Will the rest of the Den give a deal equally short shrift?

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I don't believe that selling portraits of yourself

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on 3-D printing is a business that I think warrants two people.

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If you want to make this into a larger scale,

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I don't think it's viable.

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For that reason, I'm out.

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I'm going to tell you where I am, very quickly.

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I can't see, I can't get past where the real value in the business lies.

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So, I'm out.

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Sarah Willingham joins Touker Suleyman in walking away

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from an investment.

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Will gifting supremo, Nick Jenkins,

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be any more willing to put his money into Sylvain's models?

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With a lot of personalised things, it can all be done over the internet

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because we have photographs.

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We have photographs that contain memories

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and it's all about memories.

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And with the 3-D scanning thing, it's just about me.

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And I have a real issue with the size of the market

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because it strips away the most important thing about

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personalised goods, which is it's about

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bringing back memories and you can't recreate that in a scanning booth.

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So, I'm afraid, for that reason, funky though I think this is,

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it's too limited to invest in, so I'm out.

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Four Dragons out.

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Only Peter Jones remains.

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Can he set aside his earlier concerns

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to form a printing partnership?

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I have a slightly different view to Nick.

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-You'd love one of those.

-I'd love one of those of myself.

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I'd like one of you too, Peter.

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And I know a few other people that would too.

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-Four at least.

-No.

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But I'm sitting here as an owner of a photography business, thinking...

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-I know.

-..I wonder if that sort of thing, low cost of entry,

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trial in a few stores, we could put, sort of,

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a photo-booth-style scanner in the stores and see whether

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it would work.

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And that's very much what I was looking for.

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-Exactly.

-Yeah.

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But the issue to me is, actually, it's more about you.

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-OK.

-You invest in an idea with the person and what you've done is,

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you've said you bring more to the party Dragon

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and I think that's where you went wrong today.

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And that's the reason why I'm not going to invest and say I'm out.

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-Merci, au revoir.

-Thank you.

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Peter Jones's final refusal sees Sylvain exit with nothing.

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His complex business structure failing to win over the Dragons.

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They wanted those numbers, I didn't want to give them the numbers.

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You know...

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Then it got worse and worse and then it's very hard to go back from the

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bottom up when you've done so bad in the beginning.

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Next up are Londoners Sarah Sleightholm and Beth Chilton.

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Good luck, girl.

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The pair are pitching their fledgling fashion business

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and have designs on one Dragon in particular,

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global clothing tycoon, Touker Suleyman.

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I think we're after a bit of Touker time.

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I think just because of his great manufacturing contacts,

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I think he'll really get our product and understand our product

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and probably be the Dragon that can identify with our business the best.

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Hello, Dragons, my name's Sarah and this is my business partner, Beth.

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We're here today to pitch for 78,000 in return for 15%

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of our company, Iveson & Sage.

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With a combined 13 years' experience between Sarah and I

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in the fashion industry, we really noticed two emerging gaps within the

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high street market, one being that there's no brand or retailer

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solely focusing on fashionable, yet affordable workwear.

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So we created Alter.

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And Alter is a range of, kind of, trend pieces ranging from, like,

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shirts to blazers, to trousers, to jumpsuits,

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all with that little fashion edge to it to bring it to life.

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And the other, that no occasion-wear brand is really focusing

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on beautifully embroidered pieces.

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Hope & Ivy is a brand I've always dreamed of creating,

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especially with my passion for print and embroidery.

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We started our business in October of last year and within four weeks

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we had our first order of £130,000 with online retailer ASOS.

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That was swiftly followed by a second order of £120,000,

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again with ASOS.

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It's been five months since our first orders went in and

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it's been a complete whirlwind.

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And since then we've grossed £530,000 worth of sales and

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we're currently at about a 28% profit margin with that.

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And then to top it off, Next and Lipsy are now really interested

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in taking on Alter for the autumn/winter season.

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So, that's a little snapshot of us and our brands and we welcome you

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to come and have a look at the product if you want.

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A model pitch from Sarah Sleightholm and Beth Chilton, who are seeking

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£78,000 for a 15% stake in their profitable fashion range.

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Beautiful.

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Mmm, beautiful.

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Deborah and Sarah, I know that, you know...

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I'm shopping. I'm just going to try... Have you got this in a...?

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LAUGHTER

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It's lovely.

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A positive early reaction to the product from Deborah Meaden

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and Sarah Willingham.

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Thanks, girls. Thank you.

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But will the business be on trend for Peter Jones?

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When you first came in and I saw this, I have to say,

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-I thought they were quite dour colours was my first impression.

-Yeah.

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And then you started taking through the figures of the business

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and it's outstanding, the success you've had so quickly.

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-Thank you.

-Thank you.

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Half a million pounds in just five months.

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Can I firstly know a little bit more about your backgrounds?

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-SARAH:

-Well, I studied fashion at uni

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and then I worked at ASOS for three years.

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-BETH:

-My degree was in fashion management, and then from there

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I went to Top Shop, went to a kind of start-up brand

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and that's where we met.

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We just went, "You know what? If we don't do it now, we'll never do it.

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"And if we're going to do it, we're going to go

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"as fast as possible and get it, and achieve as high as we can."

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The figures are a fit for Peter Jones.

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Now, Sarah Willingham wants to get to grips with how they plan

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to spend their investment.

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Why 78? It's quite a specific number.

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It's basically to help put a bit more money into the cash flow

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and then help with like overheads and then we want to start

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a bit of marketing.

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It would be good to spend about £28,000 on marketing -

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but when we say marketing, in our industry it's all about bloggers.

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You know, bloggers are bigger than celebrities, and if you get

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the right bloggers on Instagram, that girls love to follow,

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we need to just capture the bloggers that the girls like.

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OK, so that's the idea of growing the brand,

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-you become known for who you are and people come direct to your website to do it?

-Yeah.

-Yes.

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So far, the entrepreneurs haven't put a foot wrong.

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Impressive turnover and those all-important industry credentials.

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But the fashion forward talk has left greetings card guru

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Nick Jenkins feeling out on a limb.

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Now, actually, I have to say, it looks like you've done a great job

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of setting up a really good business but I just have no knowledge of

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this sector whatsoever, so I'm afraid I... I know what you want

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is experience and I can't really offer that in this case,

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-but wish you all the best of luck, but I'm out.

-OK, thank you.

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-That was quick, wasn't it?

-That was really quick.

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LAUGHTER

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To the point.

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A swift exit from Nick Jenkins, citing lack of industry insight.

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But it's the Dragon with the global fashion form who Sarah and Beth

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set out to impress.

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-Hi.

-Hi.

-I know a little bit about clothing.

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Yep, we've heard.

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I'm a retailer, I'm a manufacturer.

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We fabric source, we do everything, so I know all the pitfalls.

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You've got lots of energy.

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You're very credible.

0:19:120:19:14

You've got one customer.

0:19:140:19:16

You've got ASOS as your main customer.

0:19:160:19:19

So, your biggest risk, at the moment, is your relationship that

0:19:190:19:23

you've got with a particular buyer, and if, for instance,

0:19:230:19:29

-that buyer gets moved on to another department...

-Yep.

0:19:290:19:32

..you're in trouble.

0:19:320:19:34

Retail is very tough at the moment.

0:19:350:19:37

It's very tough out there.

0:19:370:19:39

It's the worst retail period the industry has known for 40 years.

0:19:390:19:44

This is not unique.

0:19:450:19:48

I think you've been lucky up to now.

0:19:480:19:50

A shock reaction from the textile tycoon, who is underwhelmed by their

0:19:530:19:58

designs and critical of their customer base.

0:19:580:20:02

Has it left Peter Jones questioning his earlier optimism?

0:20:020:20:06

Touker's been in this game for a long time,

0:20:070:20:09

probably most of his adult life.

0:20:090:20:11

What I heard him saying was that you haven't done very well and actually

0:20:110:20:14

anybody could do this.

0:20:140:20:16

-But I didn't hear you defend yourself...

-Erm, no...

0:20:160:20:18

..and you were almost accepting of it and I was shocked.

0:20:180:20:20

No, I think I was just, kind of...

0:20:200:20:22

-Well, we wouldn't be here if we didn't believe...

-In what we do.

0:20:220:20:24

We wouldn't have come to you guys if we feel that we are selling a

0:20:240:20:27

product that's not worthy of being sellable.

0:20:270:20:29

We know that it's sellable. People want it. They want it now.

0:20:290:20:32

-DEBORAH:

-I don't think it was lucky.

0:20:320:20:34

If anybody's going to make this business work,

0:20:340:20:36

you've got all the staff inside it who can do it, so, you know,

0:20:360:20:39

I don't think it's luck.

0:20:390:20:40

So, I'm going to ask you a different question.

0:20:400:20:43

What's your, you know, who do you want to roll out to?

0:20:430:20:47

I always say, I always want the top...

0:20:470:20:48

The top six people, we're gunning for next.

0:20:480:20:51

-Yeah.

-I want that list on that wall,

0:20:510:20:53

because we should be working our way through it. So what's your plan?

0:20:530:20:56

We wanted Lipsy and we got into Lipsy.

0:20:560:20:58

-BETH:

-And Next.

0:20:580:20:59

And Next. And then, I think, Very.

0:20:590:21:01

-BETH:

-And then maybe even looking at the higher end of the market, maybe even like Net-a-Porter.

0:21:010:21:05

And then even looking internationally. Retailers like Zalando, like Nelly.

0:21:050:21:09

Like, Nasty Girl would love all the embroidered kind of pieces.

0:21:090:21:13

We just want to create two amazing, amazing brands.

0:21:130:21:16

The fashion industry duo deftly deal with Deborah Meaden.

0:21:180:21:22

But it appears they have a long way to go before

0:21:220:21:25

Touker Suleyman is satisfied.

0:21:250:21:27

You're not focused.

0:21:300:21:31

You've got two brands there.

0:21:310:21:33

You're going to double your costs of marketing.

0:21:330:21:36

You're going to double your costs of website.

0:21:360:21:38

You're going to double all your costs.

0:21:380:21:39

You're a start-up and already you're stretching yourselves very wide.

0:21:390:21:44

You're better off focusing on one brand.

0:21:450:21:48

I don't know how we can stop something that's doing so well,

0:21:480:21:50

so that's why we really just want both, and they are both succeeding so well.

0:21:500:21:54

OK, I've seen it before and, to me,

0:21:540:21:57

two brands, two websites,

0:21:570:22:00

you're in for a disaster.

0:22:000:22:02

The blows just keep on coming,

0:22:060:22:08

as Touker Suleyman makes another damning assessment

0:22:080:22:11

of Beth and Sarah's business.

0:22:110:22:14

Will the retail tycoon's criticism exert any influence over fellow

0:22:140:22:19

high street magnate Peter Jones?

0:22:190:22:21

I... This is very, very difficult.

0:22:240:22:27

-Touker's made some really good points, hasn't he?

-Yeah.

0:22:270:22:30

He knows the industry really well, so those sort of points have

0:22:300:22:33

a major influence on me.

0:22:330:22:34

Of course.

0:22:340:22:35

I was waiting to see whether he's being cleverly tactical

0:22:380:22:41

by just talking and it's just noise...

0:22:410:22:43

And putting us off.

0:22:430:22:44

..and then putting us off.

0:22:440:22:46

But regardless, we are clearly all individuals

0:22:460:22:49

and we make our own decisions.

0:22:490:22:51

I have a business. I don't know if... Have you heard of Farrell

0:22:510:22:54

-or come across Farrell with Robbie Williams?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

0:22:540:22:57

I own half of that company.

0:22:570:22:59

We sell millions and millions of pounds worth of product.

0:22:590:23:02

And it's the most successful brand in Primark.

0:23:020:23:07

Oh, wow.

0:23:070:23:09

Even with what Touker is saying, if I invest, could I make a difference?

0:23:090:23:15

And could I do almost what Touker is describing as potentially impossible

0:23:150:23:19

and help you turn this into a great business?

0:23:190:23:21

I think I can.

0:23:240:23:25

Wow, thank you.

0:23:270:23:29

So I'm going to make you an offer, because I think you have done

0:23:290:23:32

a great job.

0:23:320:23:34

So, I'm going to offer you all of the money

0:23:350:23:38

for 25% of the business.

0:23:380:23:40

Peter Jones's revelation of a stake in a profitable high-street clothing

0:23:420:23:46

range wrong-foots Touker Suleyman.

0:23:460:23:48

He's offering all of the money,

0:23:500:23:52

but for 10% more equity than the entrepreneurs wanted to give away.

0:23:520:23:56

Is Sarah Willingham poised to up the ante?

0:23:570:24:01

Similarly, Touker hasn't completely put me off.

0:24:020:24:06

I mean, I've heard everything he is said and thought,

0:24:060:24:08

but look at the last five months! It's bloody brilliant!

0:24:080:24:11

Hopefully, he's throwing a red herring. I don't know.

0:24:110:24:13

I mean, it's really, really good.

0:24:130:24:15

So, I am also going to make you an offer.

0:24:150:24:17

And I'd be very happy to split it with another Dragon.

0:24:190:24:24

I'll make you an offer for all of the money for 25%,

0:24:240:24:27

but as soon as you can pay that money back,

0:24:270:24:31

I'm very happy to drop back down to 15% that you originally

0:24:310:24:37

came in and asked for.

0:24:370:24:39

Wow. Thank you.

0:24:390:24:41

Sarah Willingham joins Peter Jones

0:24:430:24:45

in dismissing Touker Suleyman's steer,

0:24:450:24:48

offering the entrepreneurs a buy-back deal that matches

0:24:480:24:51

their preferred 15% stake.

0:24:510:24:54

Deborah Meaden has yet to declare her hand.

0:24:550:24:58

Will she raise the stakes even higher?

0:24:580:25:00

I do not pretend to compete with the knowledge to my right

0:25:040:25:08

or even Peter's more recent knowledge.

0:25:080:25:11

I can bring in the fashion expertise, but I won't pretend

0:25:110:25:14

to have the same set-up that these guys have got.

0:25:140:25:17

So, for that, I'm going to offer you all of the money

0:25:170:25:21

for 20% of the business.

0:25:210:25:23

-OK. Thank you.

-OK.

0:25:230:25:25

Oh, and I'm happy to share.

0:25:250:25:27

A collection of deals to choose from.

0:25:290:25:32

But it's the Dragon with over 40 years' experience in global retail

0:25:320:25:36

Beth and Sarah came to bag.

0:25:360:25:39

So far, he's lambasted their labels and bashed their business model.

0:25:390:25:44

Time to find out if he's been playing the Den all along.

0:25:440:25:49

OK.

0:25:520:25:53

Um... I know what's involved. I know what you need.

0:25:550:25:58

And it's going to take a lot of time, a lot of energy,

0:25:590:26:02

to make this into a proper business.

0:26:020:26:04

I think that 78 grand is not going to go very far.

0:26:040:26:07

I'll make you an offer for all the money, but I want 40%.

0:26:170:26:20

Strategic play from Touker Suleyman.

0:26:230:26:26

Finally, the entrepreneurs get an offer from the Dragon they came for.

0:26:260:26:30

But his expertise comes at a cost.

0:26:300:26:33

40% of the business.

0:26:330:26:36

Will this ultimately be too high a price to pay for the design duo?

0:26:360:26:41

Shall we go and do the thinking at the back of the room?

0:26:420:26:45

-Do you want to chat?

-Yeah. Can we?

0:26:450:26:49

Oh, my God.

0:26:530:26:54

It's a tough call.

0:26:560:26:58

Four Dragons at Sarah and Beth's disposal.

0:26:580:27:01

Sarah Willingham's offering 78,000

0:27:010:27:04

for a 25% stake and a buy-back deal.

0:27:040:27:07

I think to see if Deborah and Peter will split.

0:27:070:27:11

Deborah Meaden wants 20% of the business for the same cash.

0:27:110:27:15

And Peter Jones offers his own fashion expertise

0:27:150:27:18

in exchange for 25% of the business.

0:27:180:27:21

Considerably less than the 40% that high-street clothing magnate

0:27:210:27:25

Touker Suleyman is seeking.

0:27:250:27:27

Sorry.

0:27:280:27:30

Let's discuss...

0:27:310:27:32

So, we'd like to see if Peter, you'd go in with Deborah?

0:27:340:27:39

At all, on the offer?

0:27:410:27:43

And is that at my 25%?

0:27:430:27:45

So, 12.5% each?

0:27:450:27:47

Yeah, and then, if we hit our targets, would you lower that

0:27:470:27:50

to then 20% and when we repay you back your original investment?

0:27:500:27:54

-So I'd end up with 10%?

-Yeah.

0:27:540:27:56

-To be clear, though, that would mean that I would give you half of the money for 12.5%?

-Mm-hmm.

0:27:590:28:04

And when I'd receive that money back, I would drop down to 10%,

0:28:040:28:08

and likewise so would Deborah?

0:28:080:28:09

Yeah.

0:28:090:28:10

I would accept that offer if Deborah would.

0:28:120:28:14

I'd be happy to. I'd be delighted to, actually.

0:28:140:28:16

Thank you!

0:28:160:28:18

-Brilliant!

-Have we got a deal?

0:28:180:28:19

-You've got a deal, yes.

-Yay! Well done.

0:28:190:28:22

-We do this now, we're in business together.

-Thank you so much.

0:28:230:28:26

-See you later.

-See you later.

0:28:260:28:28

Sarah and Beth exit the Den having deftly negotiated a competitive deal

0:28:300:28:35

with not one, but two Dragons.

0:28:350:28:38

Congratulations.

0:28:380:28:39

Touker, I knew you were up to something.

0:28:420:28:44

I knew you were going to make an offer.

0:28:440:28:46

When Touker was kind of really questioning it, we were like, oh,

0:28:460:28:48

maybe he doesn't believe in where we are today.

0:28:480:28:50

Well done. However, there's a lot of work to be done.

0:28:500:28:54

Sorry, I stopped at the "however".

0:28:540:28:56

Whereas Peter and Deborah's reaction was just great.

0:28:560:28:58

-Two Dragons.

-Two Dragons.

-For the price of one!

-Yeah!

0:28:580:29:01

So it's great.

0:29:010:29:03

Also hoping for a lucrative outcome to his time in the Den

0:29:130:29:17

was Rupert Evans from Norwich.

0:29:170:29:19

He was convinced a Dragon would want to part with £40,000

0:29:190:29:23

in exchange for 40% equity in his innovation

0:29:230:29:27

for the stationery market.

0:29:270:29:29

Fold-Ease is a patented,

0:29:300:29:32

one-of-a-kind paper and card folding tool,

0:29:320:29:35

which prevents friction burns and paper cuts.

0:29:350:29:38

Fits comfortably on the finger or thumb,

0:29:380:29:40

speeds up folding and creates a really neat crease line.

0:29:400:29:44

Nick Jenkins was full of praise for the entrepreneur's attention to detail.

0:29:440:29:49

You know what I love about this product?

0:29:490:29:51

What I love about it is the fact that there is a hole for the nail

0:29:510:29:54

that goes through. Brilliant.

0:29:540:29:55

Brilliant. As demonstrated by... Look at that.

0:29:550:29:57

What an absolute... That is genius.

0:29:570:30:00

While Sarah Willingham was still getting to grips

0:30:000:30:03

with the point of his product.

0:30:030:30:06

This is to fold paper?

0:30:060:30:08

Yeah.

0:30:080:30:09

-It's ridiculous.

-Yeah. Why?

0:30:100:30:13

For people who want to create a better crease line.

0:30:130:30:17

Say, for example, you're in a secretarial role or an admin role,

0:30:170:30:21

like in the paper crafting industry, where that's important.

0:30:210:30:25

Long-fingered Peter Jones was feeling a little left out.

0:30:250:30:29

I can't even fit this properly on my finger,

0:30:290:30:30

so it wouldn't be that good for me.

0:30:300:30:32

Well, there are two sizes.

0:30:320:30:34

But... You have not brought out two sizes of that?

0:30:340:30:37

Yeah, there is a multi-size twin pack.

0:30:370:30:38

You did not need to bring out two sizes. Trust me.

0:30:380:30:41

But there was no easing off from Rupert,

0:30:410:30:44

who was convinced he could appeal to the Dragon with the most famous

0:30:440:30:47

fingers in finance.

0:30:470:30:49

I think this is right up your alley.

0:30:490:30:51

Is it because I do that?

0:30:530:30:55

Well, to be fair, there's something rather pleasing about that.

0:30:580:31:01

All of the Dragons failed to see the investment potential

0:31:010:31:05

in Rupert's thimble folder.

0:31:050:31:07

To have a pair of roller skates on the end of your fingers

0:31:070:31:10

to fold paper is just plain stupid.

0:31:100:31:14

-I'm out.

-I'm afraid I'm out!

0:31:140:31:15

I think this is... This could be a massive success. I really do.

0:31:150:31:18

-I'm out.

-I'm afraid I'm out.

0:31:180:31:20

I'm going to let you keep that success to yourself.

0:31:200:31:23

I'm not going to invest in you, Rupert. I'm out.

0:31:230:31:25

OK. Thanks anyway.

0:31:250:31:26

Still to come on tonight's show...

0:31:310:31:33

Can I try it?

0:31:330:31:34

Products revealed...

0:31:340:31:36

..and finances concealed.

0:31:370:31:39

Something is going to cost £1.7 million. What is it?

0:31:390:31:43

We've managed a net loss of £75,000.

0:31:430:31:47

I must be going mad. No, you had... No. You've got 100... In these figures you gave us...

0:31:470:31:51

-So, you've now got 25,000 left.

-Exactly.

0:31:510:31:54

Will the Dragons do a deal?

0:31:540:31:56

You guys are so backable.

0:31:570:31:59

Pigs might fly, but I can't see you're going to get there.

0:31:590:32:01

There's no way you want me in a family business.

0:32:030:32:06

I'd ask you to fire your dad.

0:32:060:32:08

Next into the Den, father and daughter John and Anneka Chauhan.

0:32:120:32:16

They're here to pitch John's latest brainwave,

0:32:160:32:20

which is all about solving a slippery problem

0:32:200:32:23

we have with our bags.

0:32:230:32:24

So, will the Dragons see any value in the invention,

0:32:240:32:27

or will it just be excess baggage?

0:32:270:32:31

My background is marketing

0:32:340:32:36

and he's secretly an inventor.

0:32:360:32:39

I'm sure he is, cos he doesn't come up with just one amazing idea.

0:32:390:32:43

He's got four or five stuck in his pocket.

0:32:430:32:46

His brain just works in a different way, I think.

0:32:470:32:50

It's our combined strength that hopefully will win over the Dragons

0:32:520:32:56

and make it into something that could be a global brand.

0:32:560:32:59

Hello, Dragons. I'm Anneka Chauhan.

0:33:060:33:08

I'm John Chauhan.

0:33:080:33:10

And we're here asking for £50,000 for 10% equity in our brand i-stay.

0:33:100:33:14

i-stay is a non-slip shoulder strap.

0:33:140:33:17

It's a father and daughter innovation.

0:33:170:33:19

The idea came about whilst we were travelling and experiencing

0:33:190:33:22

our laptop bags slipping off our shoulder.

0:33:220:33:25

It's comfortable.

0:33:250:33:27

It allows airflow.

0:33:270:33:28

And it has ergonomic benefits.

0:33:300:33:32

To...

0:33:340:33:36

Sorry. It has ergonomic benefits.

0:33:360:33:38

It's a patent-pending design and it's been registered

0:33:380:33:41

in many different countries.

0:33:410:33:43

You can clip it into any bag that has D rings.

0:33:430:33:47

There are many laptop bags on the market,

0:33:470:33:50

but none of them have the unique strap that we have.

0:33:500:33:53

The i-stay brand was launched in 2012, and in 2013,

0:33:540:33:58

we managed to do £130,000 worth of turnover

0:33:580:34:02

at a net loss of £75,000.

0:34:020:34:06

In 2014, we did £240,000

0:34:060:34:11

and a net loss of £22,000.

0:34:110:34:13

In the year 15, we did £290,000,

0:34:150:34:20

a net loss of 21,000.

0:34:200:34:22

In the last six months,

0:34:230:34:25

we've now managed to do £200,000 worth of turnover,

0:34:250:34:29

and a net return of £20,000.

0:34:290:34:33

With the investment money, we're looking to create brand awareness.

0:34:330:34:37

We're also looking for your advice, guidance and expertise.

0:34:370:34:41

Thank you for listening, we welcome any questions.

0:34:410:34:43

-Can I try it?

-Of course.

-Yes.

0:34:430:34:46

A luggage strap that stays put is the offering

0:34:460:34:49

from father and daughter double act, Anneka and John Chauhan.

0:34:490:34:53

-JOHN:

-You have to lean quite a lot.

-Yeah.

0:34:530:34:56

-NICK:

-Can I try it?

-Of course.

0:34:560:34:58

They're hoping a £50,000 investment, in return for 10% equity,

0:34:580:35:02

will help keep their bag accessory business in the black.

0:35:020:35:06

I kind of get where you're coming from.

0:35:060:35:08

Touker Suleyman and Nick Jenkins seem satisfied it delivers on its promise to stay in place.

0:35:080:35:14

But can the business deliver a profitable return for an investor?

0:35:140:35:18

Sarah Willingham's first with the questions.

0:35:190:35:21

I was sat here looking at that, thinking, you know,

0:35:240:35:30

no-one's going to buy that because

0:35:300:35:32

the straps on the bags are perfectly adequate.

0:35:320:35:36

I've never had a problem with it before.

0:35:360:35:38

Why would you put it on a rucksack?

0:35:380:35:40

But you've sold a lot.

0:35:400:35:42

-JOHN:

-Yes.

0:35:420:35:43

And, I must admit, that's really thrown me.

0:35:430:35:46

This is a replacement bag strap, so if you have a bag you already like,

0:35:460:35:50

you can just clip that in and use it for that purpose.

0:35:500:35:54

But, if you want to purchase one of our bags, they all come

0:35:540:35:57

with the i-stay straps.

0:35:570:35:58

OK. So, in terms of your split of sales,

0:35:580:36:01

now I'm not surprised that your sales are as high as that,

0:36:010:36:03

-I thought you'd sold that many...

-Just the straps.

0:36:030:36:06

..replacement straps. I was like, "Wow!"

0:36:060:36:09

So, the majority of your sales is actually in the range of bags?

0:36:100:36:13

Yes, it is.

0:36:130:36:15

Looking at your numbers, why is it you've made such a loss?

0:36:150:36:19

I think initial investment was about £100,000 that we put in,

0:36:190:36:23

so that played into the first year.

0:36:230:36:26

Yes, but that wouldn't affect your net profit.

0:36:260:36:29

Um...

0:36:310:36:33

The stock, the...

0:36:330:36:35

We have... Currently, we have something like £120,000

0:36:350:36:39

of paid stock - that's at landed cost. And, initially,

0:36:390:36:44

the way our accountant seems to have worked it out was to say,

0:36:440:36:47

"Look, you've invested 100,000, you've put a lot of money into the

0:36:470:36:51

"stock, wages, staff, etc."

0:36:510:36:54

So all of that seemed to come into play.

0:36:540:36:56

Three consecutive years of net losses aren't sitting easy with Sarah Willingham.

0:36:580:37:04

Now, luxury accessory retailer Touker Suleyman has concerns

0:37:040:37:08

about the baggage in their balance sheet.

0:37:080:37:11

You said that your initial investment total was about 100,000?

0:37:130:37:17

Yes.

0:37:170:37:18

-And you've lost over the three or four years, about 120,000?

-Yes.

0:37:180:37:22

So, somewhere, you must owe somebody a lot of money?

0:37:220:37:24

We don't actually. Everything is paid for.

0:37:240:37:27

All the stock we have in the warehouse is literally paid for.

0:37:270:37:30

But you said the business started with 100,000?

0:37:300:37:33

Yes.

0:37:330:37:34

And over the three years you've lost 120,000.

0:37:340:37:37

So, you haven't made any money.

0:37:370:37:39

Most of our money's sitting in stock at the moment.

0:37:390:37:42

No, but I can't work that out.

0:37:420:37:43

Am I not thinking straight? I don't know.

0:37:450:37:47

Maybe it's me.

0:37:470:37:49

The 100,000 that was invested. That's the question mark.

0:37:490:37:52

The 100,000 is owed to Falcon.

0:37:520:37:54

Oh, who's...? Ah, OK. Now you're saying...

0:37:540:37:56

Sorry, my apologies.

0:37:560:37:57

OK. So, who's Falcon?

0:37:570:37:59

Falcon is the company that I own with my wife.

0:37:590:38:02

-TOUKER:

-So, basically, you have put in 200,000?

0:38:020:38:08

100,000.

0:38:080:38:09

-No.

-That's what we put in.

0:38:100:38:12

What Touker's trying to get across is that if you start a business

0:38:120:38:15

on day one and you put £100,000 into it and over the course of the next three years

0:38:150:38:20

you lose £121,000 in trading losses...

0:38:200:38:23

..you can't then still have £120,000 worth of stock at the end of that,

0:38:250:38:30

unless you owe money for the stock.

0:38:300:38:32

Unless your figures are not right.

0:38:320:38:34

You must have put £220,000 into it.

0:38:340:38:37

Confusion reigns as Touker Suleyman and Nick Jenkins

0:38:400:38:43

are forced to second-guess the accounts to get to the bottom

0:38:430:38:47

of the company's year-on-year losses.

0:38:470:38:49

Can Peter Jones get a handle on the Chauhan family business finances?

0:38:490:38:54

Your first year, you put £100,000 in, your wife and yourself, yes?

0:38:570:39:01

-Yes.

-So, end of that year, how much money did you lose?

0:39:010:39:04

The 75,000 in the first year.

0:39:040:39:06

And how did you finance that loss?

0:39:060:39:07

-JOHN:

-Ah, must have been from our main business, from our Falcon business.

0:39:150:39:19

-DEBORAH:

-Hold on, I must be going mad. No, you've got 100... In these figures you gave us...

0:39:190:39:23

-You've got 25,000. So you've now got 25,000 left.

-Exactly, exactly.

0:39:230:39:26

OK. So you've still got 25,000 left.

0:39:260:39:28

What happened in the next year?

0:39:280:39:30

We lost £22,000.

0:39:300:39:33

So you've now got £3,000 left.

0:39:330:39:35

What happened at the end of your third year?

0:39:350:39:37

Third year we lost £20,000.

0:39:370:39:40

How could you lose 20,000 when you've only got 3,000 left?

0:39:400:39:43

We must have put more money in, Peter. We must have put more money in from Falcon.

0:39:490:39:54

Finally, some clarity.

0:39:560:39:58

But John's uncertainty as to how much money from his

0:39:580:40:01

existing business has been pumped into this new one,

0:40:010:40:04

hasn't done him any favours with Peter Jones.

0:40:040:40:06

Will Deborah Meaden be any more understanding?

0:40:090:40:12

Anneka, John, you've got your investor.

0:40:140:40:17

-You are.

-You are the natural investor.

0:40:170:40:20

I don't know what's happened to you in the Den. You must be good at what you do,

0:40:200:40:24

-you're running a successful business that's turning out a good profit, John.

-Yes.

0:40:240:40:27

So, I don't know what happened in the Den today, but you were unable

0:40:270:40:31

to explain those finances which always makes us a little

0:40:310:40:34

bit nervous, particularly with an experienced businessperson.

0:40:340:40:37

I won't be investing. I'm out.

0:40:390:40:41

It's an open and shut case for Deborah Meaden, who very quickly

0:40:420:40:46

declines the opportunity to invest.

0:40:460:40:48

Which way will Touker Suleyman go?

0:40:500:40:52

There's no way you want me as a shareholder in the family business.

0:40:550:41:00

I'd ask you to fire your dad or something,

0:41:000:41:02

and you wouldn't want that.

0:41:020:41:04

Or fire you.

0:41:040:41:05

You used your father's overhead.

0:41:050:41:08

Reduce your overheads, get back into a good profit,

0:41:080:41:11

but do it as a family.

0:41:110:41:13

-Yeah.

-You don't need me.

0:41:130:41:16

And I'm out.

0:41:160:41:17

-Yeah.

-JOHN:

-Thank you.

0:41:170:41:18

I think when there is such a closely-knit family,

0:41:200:41:23

if I ever wanted to push something through, I would get nowhere.

0:41:230:41:28

You would gather together and I would lose every single battle

0:41:280:41:32

and it makes it very difficult for an outside investor,

0:41:320:41:35

so I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

0:41:350:41:38

Three Dragons have now declared themselves out.

0:41:390:41:42

Nervous about the numbers and sceptical about investing in such

0:41:420:41:46

a tightknit family enterprise.

0:41:460:41:49

Only Nick Jenkins and Peter Jones remain.

0:41:490:41:52

Can either of them be persuaded to help keep the business in the black?

0:41:530:41:57

I think you've invented a great product and I'm sure you'll probably

0:41:590:42:03

make 40,000 profit this year,

0:42:030:42:05

maybe 100,000 profit the year after that, couple of 100,000 after that.

0:42:050:42:09

So, I think there's a window of opportunity for you to make some money.

0:42:090:42:13

After that, you might find that everyone else looks and thinks,

0:42:130:42:16

"Hang on, why is this i-stay selling all these things?

0:42:160:42:20

"Ah, we need to improve our strap."

0:42:200:42:22

And then, suddenly, all the other manufacturers come up to the level of your game,

0:42:220:42:26

so it's difficult as a long-term investment.

0:42:260:42:30

So, I'm afraid, for that reason, I'm out.

0:42:300:42:32

Thank you.

0:42:320:42:33

What does Falcon, what does that turn over?

0:42:350:42:37

Falcon turns over 1.75 million.

0:42:370:42:41

1.75 million. What did you make?

0:42:410:42:44

We made about £120,000 profit.

0:42:440:42:47

This business that you started three years ago,

0:42:470:42:51

was this started by your daughter?

0:42:510:42:53

-Erm, jointly.

-Jointly.

-It was both of us together.

0:42:530:42:56

Yeah. But your dad lent you the money?

0:42:560:43:00

Yes.

0:43:000:43:01

-To start your business?

-Yeah.

0:43:010:43:02

I think it's fantastic.

0:43:040:43:07

Father's helping daughter create a business.

0:43:080:43:12

But...

0:43:150:43:17

I'm very, very concerned.

0:43:170:43:18

Neither of you know how to run a business. I'm amazed that, actually,

0:43:200:43:23

-you've done incredibly well, Father...

-Thank you.

0:43:230:43:26

..to make that profit.

0:43:260:43:28

This is ultimately a business to get your daughter on her journey,

0:43:280:43:31

which I applaud, but I don't want to be part of that.

0:43:310:43:33

Her next start of her journey should be doing it for herself,

0:43:330:43:37

understanding how to run a company first, before launching one of your own.

0:43:370:43:40

I think that you're too early. You don't know enough about business.

0:43:420:43:45

So, that's the reason why I'm not going to invest and say that I'm out.

0:43:450:43:48

Thank you.

0:43:480:43:50

-Cheers.

-Thanks.

-JOHN:

-Thank you.

0:43:520:43:53

A clean sweep from the Dragons, as confusing family finances mean i-stay goes.

0:43:530:44:01

We just let ourselves down on the numbers.

0:44:070:44:10

But I still feel very positive, cos I know that we've got

0:44:110:44:15

something unique. I know we've got a successful business already.

0:44:150:44:20

We're still going to do it, just maybe at a slower pace.

0:44:200:44:23

Here we go.

0:44:300:44:32

Last into the Den, Nick Coleman and Andrew Allen...

0:44:340:44:38

business partners with a modest streak.

0:44:380:44:41

We have the value of being amazing, so in everything that we do,

0:44:420:44:46

we try and make sure we're the absolute best at it.

0:44:460:44:49

Tame you, going to tame you, going to tame you,

0:44:490:44:51

going to tame you, going to tame you.

0:44:510:44:53

I have prepared and prepared and prepared and we are ready for this

0:44:590:45:03

and we are really excited.

0:45:030:45:05

-WHISPERS:

-Good luck.

0:45:050:45:07

-Ready?

-Ready.

0:45:140:45:15

Hello, Dragons. I'm Nick and I am the founder and CEO

0:45:150:45:18

of The Snaffling Pig Company.

0:45:180:45:20

I'm here today with my business partner and marketing director, Andy...

0:45:200:45:24

Hello.

0:45:240:45:25

..and we are looking for a £70,000 investment for a 10% stake

0:45:250:45:29

of our business, The Snaffling Pig.

0:45:290:45:32

For the last five years,

0:45:330:45:35

there's been a noticeable trend in the British food and drink culture.

0:45:350:45:38

Beer has had a revolution in craft,

0:45:380:45:41

burgers have gone gourmet and popcorn has even turned adventurous.

0:45:410:45:47

All of these familiar favourites have been refreshed with skill

0:45:470:45:50

and passion and now see a much wider audience as a result.

0:45:500:45:55

Yet, there is one humble,

0:45:550:45:57

but very awesome snack that has remained firmly in the shadows.

0:45:570:46:01

-DRUMROLL

-Dragons, it's time for our PIG reveal.

0:46:010:46:05

We present to you...

0:46:050:46:06

The pork scratching.

0:46:090:46:11

For over 250 years, this cheeky indulgence of a snack

0:46:160:46:21

has been loved by so very many people, but has remained completely and utterly unchanged.

0:46:210:46:26

So, we set out two years ago to take this little piggy to markets

0:46:260:46:30

he's never been before.

0:46:300:46:32

-ANDY:

-Now, to make that pig envision a reality,

0:46:320:46:34

we set about tackling some of the key challenges we felt the market

0:46:340:46:37

typically faced. First, there's the nature of the product itself.

0:46:370:46:41

We often hear people are worried about breaking their teeth

0:46:410:46:43

and others seem to half expect to find a nipple

0:46:430:46:46

in a bag of scratchings.

0:46:460:46:47

So, we only take prime cuts of pork, which we then double-cook.

0:46:470:46:50

Secondly, there was a lack of variation,

0:46:500:46:52

so we've developed a range of 11 flavours.

0:46:520:46:55

And finally, this little piggy had an image problem.

0:46:550:46:57

So, we set about creating a range of innovative formats

0:46:570:47:00

for the pub market through to a range of gifting jars

0:47:000:47:02

and even wedding favours.

0:47:020:47:04

It turns out, he's quite a versatile SWINE.

0:47:040:47:07

The pork scratching market is worth 40 million a year.

0:47:070:47:10

So, with our innovative brands,

0:47:100:47:12

we fully expect to take this business to a £6.9 million turnover

0:47:120:47:17

with a £630,000 net profit within the next three years.

0:47:170:47:22

Dragons, we would love you to be part of our adventure, and together,

0:47:220:47:26

let's make the pig in magic happen.

0:47:260:47:28

Thank you.

0:47:280:47:29

A pitch with gusto from less-than-diffident duo,

0:47:300:47:33

Nick Coleman and Andrew Allen.

0:47:330:47:35

So, we've got black pepper.

0:47:350:47:36

Lovely.

0:47:360:47:37

They're offering 10% of their snack business in return for £70,000.

0:47:370:47:42

-ANDY:

-We do have ghost chilli flavoured - that'll knock your socks off.

0:47:420:47:45

-I'll have the hot one. Is it really hot?

-Yes, it's super hot.

0:47:450:47:48

-Oh, my God.

-Yeah, you might want some milk.

0:47:480:47:51

OK, OK. Water. OK.

0:47:510:47:54

Multimillionaire Nick Jenkins has already taken one very big piggy

0:47:540:47:58

to market with his Moonpig greetings card empire.

0:47:580:48:02

-PETER:

-That is hot. That is hot.

0:48:020:48:03

Will he have the appetite to add to his PORK-FOLIO?

0:48:030:48:07

Wow, OK.

0:48:090:48:11

OK. Now, you know I obviously...

0:48:110:48:14

I have a natural preference for all things porcine.

0:48:140:48:18

How did you get into this?

0:48:180:48:20

About six years ago, I started my own business selling medical supplies,

0:48:200:48:24

but two years ago, I wanted to get involved in a consumer brand.

0:48:240:48:28

Just explain that. That's a very natural progression there.

0:48:280:48:30

-So natural, isn't it(?)

-From medical supplies into pig-related...

0:48:300:48:33

You know, I came from commodity trading into Russia

0:48:330:48:36

into a pig-related greeting card business, so I kind of get where you're coming from.

0:48:360:48:40

Guys, I LOVE pork scratchings.

0:48:400:48:43

Oh, brilliant.

0:48:430:48:44

I'm your perfect customer except that I'm also completely

0:48:440:48:46

aware of the fat and the salt.

0:48:460:48:48

Now, we all know the trends are going towards healthier food,

0:48:490:48:52

we all know there are problems with salt, we all know there are problems with fat.

0:48:520:48:56

I think this size bag might be a little alarming.

0:48:560:48:58

Although, I promise you, I could eat that, no problem at all,

0:48:580:49:02

and ask for the next one.

0:49:020:49:03

The larger packet is slightly less guilty than you think,

0:49:030:49:05

because that's a slightly different product, so, there's about the same

0:49:050:49:08

level of calories that is in the smaller bag. That's a lighter, fluffy one...

0:49:080:49:12

636 calories?

0:49:120:49:13

-Yes.

-I looked straight on the back to check how many meals

0:49:130:49:17

I had to skip to be able to eat that entire packet.

0:49:170:49:21

It is an indulgence, as you said.

0:49:210:49:22

It's one of those things. It's not something you'd be eating every day.

0:49:220:49:25

So, tell me, this sounds like you've had an amazing first year.

0:49:250:49:29

Yes, absolutely.

0:49:290:49:30

Talk me through those numbers.

0:49:300:49:32

So, year one, which will end in May 2017,

0:49:320:49:35

we have projected 2.2 million, with a gross of 1.1 million

0:49:350:49:39

-and a net of 165,000.

-Mm-hm.

0:49:390:49:42

Year two, we have a turnover expected of 4.5 million

0:49:420:49:47

with a gross of 1.9 million and a net of 420.

0:49:470:49:51

And in year three, 6.9 million with a gross of 2.8 million

0:49:510:49:56

and a net of 630.

0:49:560:49:58

Confident financial projections and a palatable product

0:50:000:50:04

mean the entrepreneurs have yet to put a trotter out of place.

0:50:040:50:07

With a fortune built in the food industry,

0:50:070:50:10

could Sarah Willingham be the first to chow down on a deal?

0:50:100:50:14

Nick, Andy,

0:50:160:50:18

as a business opportunity,

0:50:180:50:20

you guys are so backable, but I have got to love what I invest in.

0:50:200:50:26

I've got to.

0:50:260:50:27

It can't just be two great guys and a backable business.

0:50:270:50:32

I've also got to want to talk about the product and love the product

0:50:320:50:39

and pork scratchings make me gag.

0:50:390:50:40

I don't know where else to go, other than that.

0:50:400:50:42

I just can't eat them.

0:50:420:50:44

So, I'm really sorry, I can't.

0:50:440:50:46

I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

0:50:460:50:48

A shock revelation from Sarah Willingham, as her taste buds

0:50:510:50:55

get in the way of a potentially profitable partnership.

0:50:550:50:58

And now there's something about their numbers

0:50:590:51:01

that's troubling Nick Jenkins.

0:51:010:51:03

You've obviously got overheads of 2.2 million,

0:51:070:51:10

so what's the breakdown of that?

0:51:100:51:12

So... The first thing is it's made up of...

0:51:120:51:17

The majority of the money is being spent on our staff.

0:51:190:51:23

How much of that 2.2 million is going to be salaries?

0:51:230:51:26

Um, it is...

0:51:260:51:28

480.

0:51:300:51:31

That still leaves £1.8 million of overhead.

0:51:310:51:36

Do you know what, Nick? I've forgotten some of the figures, I'm so sorry.

0:51:360:51:39

No, no, it should be in your head. There's a big number here.

0:51:390:51:42

Either you're going to do some massive TV campaign or you're going

0:51:420:51:45

to aerially bombard Coventry with pork scratchings

0:51:450:51:50

or something is going to cost £1.7 million. What is it?

0:51:500:51:53

Sorry, I'm forgetting some of our additional overheads that we have in there.

0:51:550:51:59

Whether it's our IT, it's our contingency,

0:51:590:52:03

there is obviously advertising and PR.

0:52:030:52:06

That was just a little bit vague.

0:52:080:52:10

That's not terribly good.

0:52:100:52:12

The once-confident entrepreneurs have floundered over their figures

0:52:140:52:18

and in the Den, that can be a recipe for disaster.

0:52:180:52:22

It was the calorie count that Deborah Meaden took issue with,

0:52:220:52:26

but could she still pick the piggy pair for investment?

0:52:260:52:29

Don't look at me with a lot of hope in your eyes.

0:52:310:52:34

I'm sorry, because I don't want to do it.

0:52:340:52:37

I've decided that, you know, I work with organic, I work with healthy,

0:52:380:52:44

I moved towards that end of the market,

0:52:440:52:46

and this just isn't going to sit with me.

0:52:460:52:48

You've done some fantastic stuff here and it might be

0:52:480:52:51

the oddest reason in the world, but sometimes, it just doesn't...fit.

0:52:510:52:56

So, I won't be investing. I'm out.

0:52:560:52:59

I think you guys should be commended

0:53:030:53:06

for starting a business from scratch to be where you are.

0:53:060:53:11

Because I don't eat pork,

0:53:110:53:13

I'm in a position where I have to go with my beliefs.

0:53:130:53:19

I don't want to mess you guys around, cos there's other Dragons here and for that reason,

0:53:190:53:23

I'm out.

0:53:230:53:24

Two more Dragons gone, both citing personal reasons for not investing.

0:53:260:53:30

Will Peter Jones be any more willing to plough his cash

0:53:320:53:36

into the pig-based product?

0:53:360:53:38

I've done something similar in terms of...that came into the Den, it's popcorn related.

0:53:380:53:42

I've certainly gone through that whole journey for several years

0:53:420:53:46

and it was really exciting, and at the start, we did really well.

0:53:460:53:49

And then we found that there was some very serious competition

0:53:490:53:52

that came into the marketplace.

0:53:520:53:54

The price really moved and, almost overnight,

0:53:540:53:59

took the rug from under the business.

0:53:590:54:02

I'm concerned because I think that your margins will come

0:54:020:54:05

under pressure as you scale the business.

0:54:050:54:08

The market's in growth 13% year on year, so we're going to come under some pressure,

0:54:080:54:13

that's why we've pushed so hard on the branded jars.

0:54:130:54:15

-We've done particularly well with Not On The High Street.

-Yeah.

0:54:150:54:18

We were their fastest-growing food and drink partner last year.

0:54:180:54:21

We're going to be featured heavily for Fathers' Day and for Christmas

0:54:210:54:24

and we're working on the Advent calendar you can see at the end there.

0:54:240:54:27

It does answer a gift for a difficult-to-buy man.

0:54:270:54:29

You know, pigs might fly but I can't see you're going to get there.

0:54:290:54:32

I really can't and I think, sadly, I think it's going to hit that plateau.

0:54:320:54:36

So, I'm going to say that I'm out.

0:54:360:54:39

Peter Jones walks away, concerned over the scalability of the business.

0:54:400:54:46

Nick Jenkins is the last Dragon standing.

0:54:460:54:49

Will he be the one to save their bacon?

0:54:490:54:52

Look, I'm going to make you an offer.

0:54:550:54:57

I'm going to make you an offer for all of the money, but I would want

0:55:000:55:04

20% of the business and that would make it worthwhile.

0:55:040:55:07

Thank you very much for the offer.

0:55:070:55:08

-Can we go have a chat?

-Go and have a chat.

0:55:080:55:10

Thank you.

0:55:100:55:12

What d'you want to do?

0:55:140:55:15

Finally, an offer.

0:55:180:55:20

But Nick Jenkins's equity demand of 20% is double the 10%

0:55:200:55:24

the entrepreneurs want to give away.

0:55:240:55:26

-What do you think?

-I think we should take it.

0:55:260:55:28

OK.

0:55:280:55:29

I think this will be the shortest chat in history.

0:55:290:55:32

Will they strike a deal?

0:55:320:55:33

-I think that's the way.

-Excellent.

0:55:350:55:37

Great. Had a little chat then.

0:55:390:55:40

Thank you so much for that offer. It's very humbling to know that

0:55:400:55:43

you want to be involved in our journey, so we're very excited by that.

0:55:430:55:46

Obviously, we came in looking for ten, obviously we're willing to negotiate.

0:55:460:55:50

We really believe in where this product's going to go,

0:55:500:55:53

but what we'd like to do is put our money where our mouth is.

0:55:530:55:56

So, what we'd like to do is offer you the 20% today...

0:55:560:55:58

-Yep.

-..but we'd like the chance to be able to buy back your shares

0:55:580:56:01

at today's market rate in 18 months' time, once we hit our sales

0:56:010:56:04

and our profit projections.

0:56:040:56:06

-To buy back to 10?

-Yes.

0:56:060:56:08

In 18 months?

0:56:100:56:11

-In 18 months.

-Then it's a deal.

-Yes!

0:56:110:56:14

The pigs have merged. Here we go.

0:56:140:56:17

The pork scratching entrepreneurs have done it.

0:56:170:56:20

They've given away 20% of their business,

0:56:200:56:23

but with a buy-back agreement that will potentially see Nick Jenkins's

0:56:230:56:26

stake drop to 10% in 18 months' time.

0:56:260:56:29

Thank you so much. That's brilliant. Thank you.

0:56:290:56:32

-Yes!

-Well done, fantastic.

0:56:320:56:34

You're two chuffed little piglets, aren't you?

0:56:340:56:37

This little piggy has gone to market.

0:56:370:56:39

LAUGHTER

0:56:390:56:41

-Well done.

-Real good.

0:56:450:56:47

Wow, you do like pigs, don't you?

0:56:470:56:49

-They were good guys.

-Very, very smart guys.

0:56:490:56:52

It's going to be so exciting to see what other things we're going to come up with.

0:56:530:56:56

We've got the king of gifting, Mr Moonpig himself, involved in Snaffling Pig,

0:56:560:57:00

it's the perfect marriage.

0:57:000:57:01

Fantastic.

0:57:010:57:02

So, tonight, business has been all about the double act.

0:57:070:57:10

It was double trouble for the family partnership of John and Anneka,

0:57:100:57:14

but we saw fashion duo Beth and Sarah shake hands on a deal

0:57:140:57:17

with two Dragons, and a pork scratchings partnership

0:57:170:57:20

snaffled an investment from Nick Jenkins.

0:57:200:57:23

Now, the winning pairs need to double down on the work

0:57:230:57:27

and double up on the size of their business.

0:57:270:57:30

Coming up next time...

0:57:320:57:34

Rachel and Paula, can we...?

0:57:340:57:35

Oh, my God.

0:57:350:57:36

Can we start being a bit more serious about this?

0:57:360:57:38

I don't want this to go wrong for you...

0:57:380:57:40

-OK.

-But you need to come up with something a lot stronger than that.

0:57:400:57:43

I'm not going to tie your shoelaces again.

0:57:430:57:45

It's about time you did them yourself.

0:57:450:57:47

You have solved a problem that doesn't exist.

0:57:470:57:50

You've put your whole life behind this?

0:57:500:57:52

-Yeah.

-I'm going to say it how it is, I'm not impressed.

0:57:520:57:56

I'm still struggling to understand what I'm investing in.

0:57:560:57:58

You've got to make this more snappy.

0:57:580:58:00

-I'm going to make you an offer.

-You might need two Dragons for this.

0:58:000:58:03

I can't not make you an offer.

0:58:030:58:05

You've done well, haven't you?

0:58:050:58:06

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