25/05/2016 BBC News at Ten


25/05/2016

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Tonight at Ten, the ban on substances known as legal

:00:00.:00:08.

highs comes into force into two hours' time.

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These are substances that mimic the effect of illegal drugs such

:00:13.:00:16.

as cannabis and cocaine and, until now, they've

:00:17.:00:18.

This man died after taking a legal high.

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His mother says the ban, which applies throughout

:00:25.:00:26.

I think he strongly believed because they were legal,

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they were safe and I think that's what lots of people believe

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and they think it's just something you can take when you go to a party

:00:38.:00:41.

and just get a bit of a buzz off it and it's not going to harm you.

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And the ban comes into force following new reports of people

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needing urgent medical treatment in recent days.

:00:49.:00:49.

As steel workers call for a more certain future,

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the government considers changes to the pension fund

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Why leaving the EU could prolong austerity according to a leading

:00:57.:01:02.

research group and why that warning has provoked a bitter dispute.

:01:03.:01:11.

The campaigning goes on but Hillary Clinton is criticised

:01:12.:01:13.

in an official report for using private email for work purposes

:01:14.:01:16.

And the changing face of Marks and Spencer,

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but who exactly is the customer they call Mrs M?

:01:25.:01:29.

And coming up in Sportsday at half past ten on BBC News...

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There's another five-set scare for Andy Murray but he has made it

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through to the third round at the French Open.

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From midnight tonight across the UK there will be a ban on the

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Manufacturer or sale of substances known as legal highs.

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These are substances that mimic the effect of illegal drugs such

:02:17.:02:19.

as cannabis and cocaine and, until now, they've been freely

:02:20.:02:21.

The ban comes into force amid new concerns about the risks posed.

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Several people in Rochdale needed medical treatment after taking legal

:02:26.:02:28.

Our correspondent Angus Crawford has the latest.

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It's legal now, but banned at midnight.

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This is where we take the raw chemicals.

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This firm supplies legal highs, which mimick the effects of cocaine.

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Today, it's a thriving small business.

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Tomorrow, an illegal supplier of dangerous drugs.

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We get up to a turn over of about ?500,000.

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Yeah, from something that started off in a third bedroom.

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The man behind the business doesn't want to be identified.

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He now plans to take it abroad and thinks the ban will do

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I think it'll just drive up deaths, just straightaway

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People then will go back over to illegal drugs.

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Crime rates are going to go up because prices of illegal

:03:13.:03:15.

drugs are going to be a lot higher than ?15,

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?20 a gram, they're going to be paying ?50-?70 a gram.

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Users, out of control, in a city centre.

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One reason the Government is banning what it calls an abhorrent trade.

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Legal highs were linked to more than 100 deaths last year,

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including that of Brodie Harrison-Merritt, who was just 28.

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His mother says he took the drug with a friend at a

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He died in the early hours of the morning on the Friday,

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His body had just shut down completely.

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I think he strongly believed that, because they were legal,

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they were safe and I think this is what lots of people believe

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and they think it's just something you can take when you go to a party.

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Just to get a little bit of buzz off it and it's not going to harm you.

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Those who supply these drugs aren't there to pick up the pieces.

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Paramedics in Birmingham can get four call-outs a day.

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Recently, Cameron McVitie had to help a man who

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We entered the property to find the gentleman unconscious,

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not in cardiac arrest, actually round his toilet.

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All of a sudden he made a rapid recovery, jumped up,

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started to get really aggressive, punching his own walls in his flat,

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putting holes through his doors by kicking them.

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Hundreds of thousands of young people regularly use

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The question is - now they're no longer for sale in shops

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like these on the high street, will the trade die out

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The reason these powders are so risky is that you don't

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You don't know how long before you get high.

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Experts on drug policy believe the new law may have mixed results.

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I think that's going to lead to a reduction in use,

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particularly by young people, and I think that's

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But the group who are already using these drugs, who are most

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vulnerable and marginalised, the law will make no

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There will be people stockpiling and selling to that group,

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but the people selling won't be paying tax now, it'll be street

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Today, hours before the ban, a shop in Rochdale, closed

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by police, two arrests and a reminder of the dangers.

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Since Friday, nine men have been admitted to hospital

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With me now is our Special Correspondent, Lucy Manning.

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Based on what we have heard and your reports last week on the state of

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prisons, there are people who think this ban will not work. We sought

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the effect that legal highs like Spice were having in prisons

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increasing violence and health problems with emergency services

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called out on average every 20 minutes and that was having an

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impact on ambulances in the community. People outside could buy

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them legally and sell them for not the money inside prisons but this

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has been a problem for some years in towns and cities and we have seen it

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in Rochdale this week. Will it work? People will not be able to walk into

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shops now and that will push the price up and that should help to

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discourage people but people already think that drug dealers will step in

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to fill the gap and police are saying that what could happen is the

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selling could migrate to what is called the dark net comedy bits of

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the Internet that cannot be traced where some illegal goods are sold.

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Ireland had a ban on these legal highs in 2010 and the number of

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deaths has gone up. Ministers admit that this is not a silver bullet you

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need education and rehabilitation as well, but for those people who were

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taking legal highs because they thought they were safe because they

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were legal, that will now stop. Thank you.

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The government is considering cutting benefits to the British

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Steel pension scheme to try to help secure a buyer for Tata Steel's

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Several hundred steel workers took part in a demonstration

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in Westminster earlier today to protest against plans by Tata

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The sale has been made more difficult because the pension scheme

:07:31.:07:34.

The Business Secretary, Sajid Javid, along with

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the First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, have been holding

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talks with with Tata officials in Mumbai.

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Mr Javid said several of the bids were credible.

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Our business correspondent Yogita Limaye is following events in

:07:52.:07:53.

Focusing on this pension issue, how central is it?

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It has become a big matter of concern and Sajid Javid has said it

:08:05.:08:12.

could deter potential buyers. We have seen some companies who have

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expressed an interest in purchasing that are still's you get at it

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saying they don't want to take on the pension liability. As far as

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Tata is concerned, they are saying that it understanding is that if the

:08:27.:08:30.

buyer does not want to continue the pension scheme, there are provisions

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within the legal framework of the UK to deal with that but we have

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learned that the government is planning to introduce a consultation

:08:39.:08:41.

in parliament tomorrow that could see a reduction in the benefits that

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members of the pension fund received. We have also learned that

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this is a plan that unions might back. It is a way to sweeten the

:08:50.:08:54.

deal, to reduce the pension burden. The UK business of Tata steel is a

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loss-making one and they have said they have been losing ?1 million

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every day and that is quite what is on offer needs to be made more

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attractive if a buyer is to be found. Thank you.

:09:11.:09:13.

The leading economic research group, the Institute for Fiscal Studies,

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has warned that Britian could face a further two years of austerity

:09:16.:09:18.

if voters decide to leave the European Union.

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The warning provoked a furious row when Leave campaigners accused

:09:22.:09:25.

the IFS of being a propaganda arm of the European Union.

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David Cameron backed the IFS, saying it represented the gold

:09:30.:09:32.

Our economics editor, Kamal Ahmed, has the story.

:09:33.:09:39.

Vital public services could face further cuts.

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Austerity could be extended for a further two years.

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That was the gloomy outlook published today by one of the UK's

:09:50.:09:53.

most respected economic organisations, the IFS.

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Its judgment on what could happen if there is a vote to leave the EU

:09:57.:10:00.

If the government wanted to get to budget balance in 2019,

:10:01.:10:08.

as it says it does, that would require another ?5 billion

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of public service spending cuts, ?5 billion of security cuts

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These findings are harder to dismiss as the IFS took the average of all

:10:15.:10:24.

the economic reports on Brexit, from pessimistic too optimistic,

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and applied a simple and trusted test on the results.

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So, what does the IFS suggest could be the impact of Brexit?

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First, there would be a gain of ?8 billion.

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That is the amount of money the IFS says the government pays to the EU

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But the IFS says that a possible economic downturn following Brexit

:10:44.:10:47.

That economic downturn could mean our national income,

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or GDP, being up to 3.5% smaller by 2020.

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And that would mean less tax income for the government,

:10:58.:11:01.

which the IFS says could lead to a public finance black hole

:11:02.:11:03.

The result, well, it could be more cuts, higher taxes or two

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more years of austerity, if the government sticks to its plan

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Unsurprisingly, the Prime Minister welcomed the analysis of the IFS.

:11:20.:11:29.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies is the gold standard in independent,

:11:30.:11:32.

impartial, economic forecasting and commentary in our country.

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It is accepted by every political party.

:11:35.:11:42.

Vote Leave claims its waving the flag for Britain and the economy

:11:43.:11:46.

I think people are getting a bit sick and tired of this overwhelming

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stuff about how the economy is going to end in tears

:11:52.:11:54.

The truth is, of course, that economic forecasts

:11:55.:12:02.

are only going to spit out on the assumptions that you put in.

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Depending on the assumptions you put in, you can get absolute

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Ukip's Nigel Farage, arguing leaving the EU would be

:12:08.:12:18.

the great escape, and that the IFS, in any case, might be,

:12:19.:12:21.

Another taxpayer-funded and EU-funded organisation

:12:22.:12:28.

using our money to tell us what we should think.

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That allegation is hotly denied by the IFS and Andrew Lilico,

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Vote Leave's economic expert, took to social media

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There will be a lot more of this, the battle buses crisscrossing

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the country, trying to convince the voters that the economy is safe

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We have had such a wide range of predictions and warnings so where

:12:53.:13:08.

does the IFS stand? They are a serious and respected organisation.

:13:09.:13:14.

It is another day when the Vote Lead campaign have found themselves

:13:15.:13:16.

responding to a bleak assessment of what would happen if Britain were to

:13:17.:13:22.

leave the EU. I have spoken to number of senior figures close to

:13:23.:13:25.

their campaign and there is some tension, some people saying they

:13:26.:13:29.

should be more on the front foot. There are economic benefits, they

:13:30.:13:34.

argue, to leaving, and they should be loud about them. It has been

:13:35.:13:39.

pointed out that there are five Shadow chancellors or former

:13:40.:13:42.

chancellors who all support Brexit, Nigel Lawson, Norman Lamont, Peter

:13:43.:13:47.

Lilley, Michael Portillo and Michael Howard and they should be put

:13:48.:13:51.

forward to argue the economic advantages of exit. Speaking to the

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leaders of their campaign, they have two things going on. The rope dope

:13:56.:14:02.

strategy, when you have the IMF, the OECD, the Treasury, the Bank of

:14:03.:14:05.

England, they have to take the punches and then come fighting back

:14:06.:14:08.

and the fightback will be all around what is the cost of staying in the

:14:09.:14:14.

EU. Poor performance economically from the Eurozone, weak levels of

:14:15.:14:19.

growth and of course the big issue, immigration. Tomorrow the Office For

:14:20.:14:22.

National Statistics will report on the latest figures of EU and non-EU

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immigration into the UK. Vocally belief that will put them on the

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front foot in the way that the economy today is less them, to an

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extent, on the back foot thank you. The latest data on migration to

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the UK will be published tomorrow. It will be the last chance to assess

:14:42.:14:43.

the scale of migration Total net migration to the UK

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is currently running at more than 300,000 a year,

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with just under half coming Our chief correspondent,

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Gavin Hewitt, has been to Bristol to find out how important

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the immigration question is likely And often weighing on voters'

:14:59.:15:00.

minds, immigration. I think many people will worry

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about migration, but I think it will be the economy that will make

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the final difference. Yes, we should allow more people

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into this country. Migration, yeah, it's a bit

:15:22.:15:23.

of a problem, but it's Can I give you a leaflet

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about the referendum? Bristol, and the Leave campaign

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making its case Increasingly at the heart

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of their pitch, It's not just uncontrolled

:15:35.:15:37.

immigration coming from the EU... Tomorrow, the eyes of the Leave

:15:38.:15:44.

campaign will be on the final quarterly immigration figures

:15:45.:15:47.

before the referendum. On the streets, their campaign

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sparks disagreements. Britain is a pathetic little

:15:52.:15:54.

northern European island... Stuck off there, living

:15:55.:15:56.

in faded glories. The Leave campaign argues

:15:57.:16:03.

the Government has broken its promise to reduce net annual

:16:04.:16:05.

migration below 100,000. We're saying we would like to be

:16:06.:16:09.

able to control our borders, we would like to be able to not just

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have a free flow of We would actually like to be able

:16:13.:16:16.

to open up our country Bristol has been changed

:16:17.:16:23.

by immigration. A fifth of the population

:16:24.:16:30.

was born outside the UK. Mateusz is uncertain what his status

:16:31.:16:32.

would be if Britain leaves the EU. There's a lot of people coming

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in from other countries, not just like Poland,

:16:45.:16:51.

but all around from the EU and other So it's not surprising me that

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people are talking about it. Many people here believe that

:16:55.:16:58.

outside the EU there would be less immigration,

:16:59.:17:01.

less pressure on schools But there are also warnings that

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fewer migrants would mean a weaker economy, particularly

:17:04.:17:07.

in the long term. To the north of the city,

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a warehouse of skateboards and sports equipment

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destined for Europe. The distribution company,

:17:14.:17:22.

Shiner, is expanding. A quarter of the workforce

:17:23.:17:24.

are EU migrants. We need people to do jobs,

:17:25.:17:26.

we need people to be paying taxes in the UK so, therefore,

:17:27.:17:34.

making it more difficult for people to migrate

:17:35.:17:38.

is going to be bad for the economy. On the ground, the Remain camp

:17:39.:17:41.

believes it economic The Leave campaign sees

:17:42.:17:43.

migration as an example that Tomorrow, the battle over statistics

:17:44.:17:47.

will be joined again. Gavin Hewitt, BBC News,

:17:48.:17:50.

Bristol. The BBC's Reality Check team has

:17:51.:17:59.

been examining the latest claims from both sides

:18:00.:18:08.

of the referendum debate. You can find full analysis

:18:09.:18:10.

at bbc.co.uk/realitycheck. In America, an investigation has

:18:11.:18:12.

found that Hillary Clinton ignored official guidelines

:18:13.:18:20.

when she used her private email for official purposes during her

:18:21.:18:22.

time as Secretary of State. A spokesman for Mrs Clinton

:18:23.:18:25.

said her practices were no different The issue has been a constant

:18:26.:18:27.

factor in her campaign for the Democratic Party's

:18:28.:18:31.

presidential nomination, as our North America editor,

:18:32.:18:38.

Jon Sopel, tells us. Hillary Clinton's march

:18:39.:18:40.

towards the Democratic nomination has been anything

:18:41.:18:43.

but straight-forward and today, campaigning in California,

:18:44.:18:45.

another inconvenient obstacle. And, no, we're not talking

:18:46.:18:47.

about the microphones that didn't Instead, it's the highly

:18:48.:18:56.

critical report from the State Department over her use

:18:57.:19:03.

of a private email server. Her spokesman said, "Mrs Clinton had

:19:04.:19:05.

done nothing different The report said that - "former

:19:06.:19:08.

Secretary Clinton should have surrendered all emails dealing

:19:09.:19:14.

with department business before leaving government service and,

:19:15.:19:16.

because she didn't do so, she didn't comply with

:19:17.:19:18.

the department's policies that were implemented in accordance

:19:19.:19:20.

with the Federal Records Act." And, at the State Department today,

:19:21.:19:22.

a defensive response. While people were aware

:19:23.:19:24.

of her use of personal email, no-one had a full and complete

:19:25.:19:35.

understanding to the extent. Well, let me put it,

:19:36.:19:38.

some people did have a full and complete understanding

:19:39.:19:41.

of the extent, like she did.

:19:42.:19:45.

Right? ...and that's a question

:19:46.:19:46.

for her and her team to answer that. There was nothing defensive

:19:47.:19:51.

though about Donald Trump. He was revelling in Hillary

:19:52.:19:53.

Clinton's discomfort or "Crooked Hillary",

:19:54.:19:56.

as he now always refers to her. She had a little bad news today,

:19:57.:20:01.

as you know, some reports came down The Inspector General's

:20:02.:20:09.

report - not good. The remarkable thing about this

:20:10.:20:18.

election is that both front-runners are suffering very high disapproval

:20:19.:20:21.

ratings in the polls. This report today won't have done

:20:22.:20:23.

anything to help Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton's use of a pride vat

:20:24.:20:35.

email server has been a festering problem in her campaign for the

:20:36.:20:40.

Democratic nomination. Today doesn't draw a line under it. There is a

:20:41.:20:43.

separate FBI investigation that could lead to her indictment. Today

:20:44.:20:50.

is serious. Were the FBI to indict her, that could be potentially

:20:51.:20:56.

catastrophic. Huw. Jon, many thanks again there. Jon Sopel there, our

:20:57.:21:00.

North America editor in Washington. France has started using its fuel

:21:01.:21:12.

reserves to deal with petrol shortages caused

:21:13.:21:14.

by nationwide strikes. Industrial action over employment

:21:15.:21:15.

reforms has disrupted operations A fifth of petrol stations have been

:21:16.:21:17.

affected, with many having to close. Protests will escalate tomorrow,

:21:18.:21:22.

with workers walking out at 19 The biggest study of suicide among

:21:23.:21:24.

young people in England has highlighted bereavement,

:21:25.:21:31.

bullying, exam pressure and physical health problems as some

:21:32.:21:32.

of the main factors. Official figures show suicide among

:21:33.:21:35.

young people is on the rise and experts say that talking openly

:21:36.:21:37.

about suicidal thoughts, when appropriate, can reduce

:21:38.:21:42.

the number of deaths, as our correspondent,

:21:43.:21:46.

Michael Buchanan, explains. Suicide is the biggest killer

:21:47.:21:49.

of people under the age When enough people tell

:21:50.:21:51.

you something about yourself that's You get told you're worthless,

:21:52.:21:59.

to the point where you And the only way you can

:22:00.:22:04.

stop feeling it and stop How old were you when you first

:22:05.:22:14.

tried to end it all? Melanie Delacourt has attempted

:22:15.:22:19.

suicide on 14 separate occasions. The 22-year-old is open

:22:20.:22:22.

about her psychiatric problems, but being bullied remorselessly

:22:23.:22:24.

for years, emotionally and physically, contributed hugely

:22:25.:22:25.

to her desire to die. None of us actually know

:22:26.:22:31.

that we want death because we don't So it's more of a case of -

:22:32.:22:33.

we'd rather go to something we don't It's not really wanting to die,

:22:34.:22:43.

it's more of getting Apart from bullying,

:22:44.:22:47.

today's research found academic pressures can also contribute

:22:48.:22:50.

to young people killing themselves. Family bereavement and a physical

:22:51.:22:57.

health problem like acne Although no single factor causes

:22:58.:22:59.

suicide, the need to do well Four of the 130 deaths that

:23:00.:23:03.

were studied occurred For a small number of people,

:23:04.:23:08.

the stress of facing those pressures, those exam pressures,

:23:09.:23:13.

can be too great. Getting a good education and doing

:23:14.:23:17.

well at school that, in the end, is protective against suicide,

:23:18.:23:20.

so it's just that we need to make sure that the means of getting

:23:21.:23:26.

there, the pressures that people face through the exam

:23:27.:23:29.

system, don't become too Morgan Faulkner, a lively,

:23:30.:23:31.

inquisitive 15-year-old, He was about to sit his GCSEs,

:23:32.:23:36.

which was stressing him, but his father says there was no

:23:37.:23:42.

indication whatsoever that It was a consequence of things that

:23:43.:23:45.

built up in his brain that led him to, at that very moment,

:23:46.:23:51.

making a catastrophic decision that If he'd have known what had been

:23:52.:23:54.

left behind, he wouldn't If he'd seen the outpouring

:23:55.:24:01.

of grief at his funeral, Maybe he felt that people

:24:02.:24:05.

didn't love him enough. We'll always speculate,

:24:06.:24:08.

but he should be here today, Melanie Delacourt has written

:24:09.:24:11.

about her psychiatric conditions to help her family

:24:12.:24:15.

understand her problems. With suicide on the rise among

:24:16.:24:18.

young people, experts say listening to their concerns,

:24:19.:24:23.

sometimes openly asking if they're feeling suicidal,

:24:24.:24:25.

can prevent more deaths. Details of some organisations that

:24:26.:24:27.

can offer support are available on our Actionline website

:24:28.:24:38.

at bbc.co.uk/actionline or you can listen to recorded

:24:39.:24:39.

information by calling free, Five migrants are believed to have

:24:40.:24:42.

died after an overcrowded fishing More than 550 people were rescued

:24:43.:24:56.

after the vessel overturned, with Italian Navy swimmers pulling

:24:57.:25:10.

many of them to safety. Officials say more than 5,000

:25:11.:25:12.

migrants have been rescued in the region this week with numbers

:25:13.:25:14.

expected to increase The new head of Marks and Spencer

:25:15.:25:17.

says he wants to put the store's "loyal" army of female shoppers

:25:18.:25:27.

back at the heart of its Steve Rowe, who took over as Chief

:25:28.:25:29.

xecutive last month, calls this group of women "Mrs M"

:25:30.:25:33.

and he says they've Our business correspondent,

:25:34.:25:35.

Emma Simpson, has more details. Twiggy in the 60s,

:25:36.:25:38.

flares in the 70s. Oh, how the fashions have changed -

:25:39.:25:47.

so too have shopping habits. This business has been losing

:25:48.:25:50.

shoppers for more than four years. She can be just about to

:25:51.:25:53.

approach her retirement. But what's clear is that she

:25:54.:26:09.

appreciates good things in life. She is looking for great garments

:26:10.:26:12.

that fit and flatter. Steve, would Mrs M wear

:26:13.:26:15.

something like this? Mrs M is going to be really

:26:16.:26:16.

keen on that. We love, cherish and celebrate

:26:17.:26:19.

Mrs M and I commit to making sure we're listening to her and not

:26:20.:26:31.

telling her what to wear, Here's some of those customers

:26:32.:26:34.

he wants to win back. They made this video in 2014,

:26:35.:26:39.

singing a song of frustration. Steve Rowe, who's worked his way up

:26:40.:26:42.

from the shop floor, is now taking a new approach -

:26:43.:26:48.

less high fashion, more wearable styles and at better prices,

:26:49.:26:51.

and he's listening. Let's see what this customer

:26:52.:26:56.

has to say. I just think it's very,

:26:57.:26:58.

very confusing for us ladies to find out what we're looking for,

:26:59.:27:01.

and we want to be This lady is absolutely typical

:27:02.:27:04.

of Mrs M I mean, you can hear that she cares

:27:05.:27:07.

passionately about the brand. She wants us to do well and we've

:27:08.:27:12.

been letting her down. But is he on the right

:27:13.:27:15.

track with Mrs M? I think it's simplifying

:27:16.:27:19.

the issue, really. I think what we're look at now

:27:20.:27:28.

is a ?1 billion retail industry that A woman can buy anything,

:27:29.:27:31.

from any high street in the world, This turn around is going to dent

:27:32.:27:36.

profits, but the new boss believes it's the right thing to do secure

:27:37.:27:40.

Marks and Spencer long-term success. Voters will go to the polls, four

:27:41.:27:43.

weeks tomorrow, in the referendum on Britain's future in the EU

:27:44.:27:55.

and recent polls suggest that as many as a quarter of voters

:27:56.:27:57.

may not have decided Our home editor, Mark Easton,

:27:58.:28:00.

is in Worcestershire tonight on the trail

:28:01.:28:03.

of the undecided voters. Welcome to Worcestershire Huw, King

:28:04.:28:09.

John is buried in the cathedral behind me. Across the city of

:28:10.:28:13.

Worcester is the scene of a famous victory for the parliamentarians in

:28:14.:28:19.

the English civil war which is why the tourist brochures like to call

:28:20.:28:24.

it the home of British liberty and democracy. All the local MPs are

:28:25.:28:27.

Conservatives, they can't agree on which way to vote. I've been

:28:28.:28:34.

exploring what I call the agony of the undecideds.

:28:35.:28:40.

The jewel of the Cotswolds, the village of Broadway epitomises

:28:41.:28:43.

what JB Priestley called "the most English landscape, Conservative,

:28:44.:28:45.

with large sea and small it is an ancient place

:28:46.:28:47.

with a polished patterner of self-assurance and conviction."

:28:48.:28:51.

But when it comes to the EU referendum, resident Tories,

:28:52.:28:55.

like Peter Reading, finds themselves undecided.

:28:56.:28:59.

His daily newspaper, and his party of course,

:29:00.:29:01.

Outside the Broadway Hotel, I met Peter and his wife Joan,

:29:02.:29:10.

among the 20% of Conservative voters who say they still haven't

:29:11.:29:12.

There are people on either side, on the yes and the no,

:29:13.:29:19.

who you admire their views and yet suddenly they're antagonistic views

:29:20.:29:23.

I think my default position is probably to go out,

:29:24.:29:32.

but my head tells me that perhaps I should stay in,

:29:33.:29:34.

but I want to see the argument persuade me to stay in.

:29:35.:29:37.

It's, I think, as Peter said, it's almost a head

:29:38.:29:43.

You know, I'm British, I'm proud of being British

:29:44.:29:46.

If I go to our largest Tescos here, there are two long aisles

:29:47.:29:55.

I believe that countries will always evolve but, at the moment,

:29:56.:30:06.

You know, why couldn't we have some economists do a for and against

:30:07.:30:11.

It's a refrain you hear over and over again.

:30:12.:30:19.

They want the arguments clearly set out.

:30:20.:30:24.

That's probably why politicians are reporting large numbers turning

:30:25.:30:27.

up at village and town hall meetings and referendum debates, far more

:30:28.:30:30.

In the Cap and Gown, in central Worcester,

:30:31.:30:39.

the saloon bar is packed for a debate on the EU.

:30:40.:30:42.

There are supporters from both camps and the undecideds are here, too.

:30:43.:30:44.

I think what's difficult is dealing with all the nonsense

:30:45.:30:47.

Facts that are coming out on both sides and I find I can't

:30:48.:30:53.

But I'm openminded to change, if I get a sensible argument

:30:54.:30:58.

and so far I have not seen a logical, sensible argument.

:30:59.:31:01.

You know, none of us have voted yet, we still can all be swayed in either

:31:02.:31:05.

I think we're definitely better where we are in the EU.

:31:06.:31:12.

We, from the Get Out campaign, do not wish to go

:31:13.:31:16.

Normally in politics people stick to well trodden, tribal paths,

:31:17.:31:23.

but the EU debate has left many feeling they're lost in the jungle.

:31:24.:31:30.

In favour of the motion, that being in the EU

:31:31.:31:33.

On the night, Remain narrowly won the debate, but many

:31:34.:31:39.

I've seen a lot of talking heads and I'd like to look at raw data.

:31:40.:31:47.

People say one thing, people say another thing

:31:48.:31:49.

and you never know who's telling the truth or who's right.

:31:50.:31:51.

Voters are having to do their own homework, consider

:31:52.:31:55.

Whatever the result, the process has at least been

:31:56.:32:00.

Mark Easton, BBC News, Worcestershire.

:32:01.:32:07.

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