11/03/2014 Daily Politics

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It's been confirmed

in the last couple of hours that Bob Crow, the Secretary Gerneral of the

RMT, has died. We'll bring you the latest reaction Labour are calling

it the hospital closure clause. We'll ask whether it's right for the

Government to be given more powers to shut down hospitals. There has

not been a totally fair and honest election since 2006, according to

one returning officer, and postal votes are to blame. So, should they

be banned? And is the dogs going to the dogs? We'll speak to one MP

lamenting its demise. All that in the next hour. And with

us for the whole programme today is broadcaster and publisher Iain Dale.

Welcome to the show. First, the sad news that Bob Crow, the Secretary

General of the RMT, died in the early hours of this morning at the

age of 52. Tributes have been coming in from across the political

spectrum. Here's a flavour of what's been said. No, we will go to that in

a moment. We can speak to our political correspondent, Chris

Mason. He was a larger than life character. He certainly fought for

his members, didn't he? He was a huge character in public life. He

was a campaigner for his members. When you look at statistics in

London, when you look at salaries, he started -- he was undoubtedly

successful in campaigning for members. For critics, he was a relic

from a previous era - a socialist dinosaur. He regularly ground London

to a halt with strikes on the London underground. We saw that a matter of

weeks ago. People from across the political spectrum recognised his

power and influence and recognised he was perhaps the most influential

and well-known trade unionist in the country and perhaps the most

well-known socialist. He was always willing to go into battle with his

members and those who wanted to take him on. Here is a little excerpt of

an interview he did with Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics a couple of

weeks ago. Why do you run for London mayor? That has not come up yet. You

are not ruling it out? Sky I am not ruling out your job on The Politics

Show. You have got to put your feet up. I'm worried about your health as

well. Shall we go on strike first? If you had my wages, you might not

be able to afford to be on the beach. Nice to see you. He gave as

good has he got. The interview touching on the fact he was a very

successful negotiator. Undeniably, he was very successful. His critics

acknowledge that. Plenty said that in private, when he was in the

negotiations, he was a more subtle and thoughtful man than the

caricature sometimes portrayed him. Here was a guy who had worked in the

railways and then in trade unionism all his life. He started working on

the row ways since the age of 16. He got into a dispute with his manager

since the age of 19. He climbed his way up the union of row in men, as

it was then. That merged with the Maritime union and became the RMT.

He became its leader at 52 years old. He was due to be attending the

meeting of the TUC yesterday. They were getting together and he called

in sick. He had been expected to attend today. When those at that

meeting had discovered what had happened overnight, his passing in

the night, that meeting immediately was suspended. A very big gap left

in the trade union world. From the perspective of the RMT, he is a very

difficult man to replace. With me now is Mick Whelan, who is the

General Secretary of ASLEF and the Labour MP, Jeremy Corbyn. It must

have come as a terrible shock. I do not think we have yet come to terms

with it. It has been an awful morning. We are concerned for his

family. He was incredibly proud of his family. Looking at him, you are

a friend as well as a work colleague, how would you describe

him? Behind the cameras, he was a force. He was larger than life in

personality. You cannot get to be general secretary of the RMT and run

an organisation like that. We deal with pensions and all the things

that when we are arguing from the other side of the table, we have not

experienced. He was a very public figure, wasn't he? He could stand up

soapbox style and talk like a firebrand. There were union

meetings, campaign meetings, disputes, all kinds of thing will

stop I used to give out leaflets for the nationalisation of the row ways

with him. It is amazing all these people coming in from the Chilterns

in nurse soothsaying, thank you very much, it is very kind of you. -- in

their suits saying. He was likened to the great Harry Bridges. They

loved him. Bob was an intellectual man. He was extremely well read. He

was and extremely well-informed and a caring individual. There was an

awful lot of depth to Bob. That is why he became general secretary.

Running a union is not just in front of the cameras, it is a whole lot of

other administrative things. Bob did all that very well. Let's get a

flavour of some of the tributes we have received this morning in

response to the death of Bob Crow. We may have disagreed on certain

aspects of what he would have liked to have seen happen to the railways

but both of us wanted to see the overall benefits of the railways and

recognised it very important role that they can play. In certain

areas, he was a supporter of various other things. Very shocked, very

sad. 52 is too young to be taken away from a family. This is the

death of a fighter. He was a proud trade unionist. Trade unionists were

proud of him. I am sad to hear of the loss. A lot of people will be

grieving today. RMT members loved him. He represented their

interests. He worked himself into the ground. He was a committed row

when man. He was committed to a decent railway service. --

railwaymen. He built the union. This is a tragic loss for all of us.

Tributes from both Labour and Conservative politicians. There are

commuters who feel that actually the union and Bob Crow had them over a

barrel, if you like, when it came to disputes and strike action. If you

had a dispute they would like to have Bob Crow on their side. Is he

the greatest trade union leader in Britain? He was a tenacious fighter.

He was very difficult to interview. If you tried to sort of ask any

smart ask questions or tried to provoke a confrontation, he would

run rings around you. He had a twinkle in his voice. He had a good

sense of humour. I think he will be missed, not just by people on the

left but people on the right like a good adverse three. What about being

sensitive to criticism? -- adversarial. In terms of the public,

when he was out and about, what was the response? People loved to talk

to him. He had a wonderful sense of humour. He was famous for his

compassion. He was not, as sometimes put trade, the flat cap and whip it

typical trade union leader. He sometimes did it to set himself up.

I famously was at a conference with him in Paris. I said, why do you do

it? I know you are well read and well briefed. If you go back to

London and ask them to name three trade union leaders, if they do not

name me in the first two, they cannot name a third. The union was

not actually latterly part of the Labour movement. He felt that

connection had gone some time ago. Union and the Labour Party parted

quite a long time ago. Bob had various political interests. He was

a communist and supported the Socialist Labour Party. He also

supported Labour candidates and Labour MPs. He came to an event in

Islington last summer and gave us a bottle of Cuban rum! That was

enjoyed by all. He was far more pragmatic politically than a lot of

people thought. He knew all about alliances. Was there a bit of bluff

and bluster? He was not a traditional left-winger. He was a

devout Eurosceptic. He wanted there to be a left wing all tenanted to

UKIP. He was quite anti immigration. -- all eternity of two UKIP. He

stood up for women's rights and cleaners rights. On Europe, the

point you making quite right. He wanted a Europe where there was

public ownership. I would not put him in the duke it Eurosceptic mould

at all. It was a different sort of Europe. -- put him in the

Eurosceptic mould at all. He must be the B of other trade union leaders.

His membership went up. -- he must be the envy. Trade union membership

is going up. We are in a period of time where it is increasing. It may

not go back to the heady days of the 70s but it is moving in that

direction. He was very good at promoting the ideals of the trade

union movement and the politics of it. That attracted a lot of people

in this day and age. Was Boris frightened of Bob Crow? It would

have been quite interesting to have a webcam. He will be difficult to

replace. He has left a legacy. People need to make sure that legacy

lives and grows but there is no other Bob Crow. People who stand up

for others get remembered. The Government's Care Bill is back in

Parliament today. And it's not without controversy. Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt has inserted a clause which would give officials

greater powers to close hospital Accident and Emergency Departments

and other services. This morning, there were protests outside

Parliament, attacking what many have called the hospital closure clause.

Shadow Health Secretary Andy Burnham has warned that the plans will send

a chill through every community in the country. However, the Government

argues health services would be delivered best if reorganised over a

wider area. Andy Burnham joins me now, along with the Conservative MP,

Dr Phillip Lee. Clause hundred 19, whatever you call it, the clause

that has caused so much controversy would only affect hospitals that are

in the trust 's special administrator process. That is

right, isn't it? At the moment no hospitals are in special

Administration. Any trust could be. Lewisham had a successful trust,

financially and clinically. It found itself wrapped up in a

reconfiguration that had the Health Secretary saying we are going to

take your accident and emergency department way. The Secretary of

State was taken all the way to the High Court. He misused the powers of

the last Labour government. The right thing to have done would be to

back off gracefully and respect the court 's decision. He rushed forward

these rules and is arrogantly expecting parliament to rubber-stamp

them today. He must be stopped because no hospital in England will

be safe from top-down closure if it goes through. You have used that

example, which was very potent. Trusts are in financial difficulty

all over the country. They will not necessarily go into that

Administration. In terms of what you have would have done, how would you

have dealt with it? That is a really important question. What we have

taking place in south-east London before the last election was a very

traditional, detailed consultation. It was going through the stages of

local consultation, engagement with the help bodies on the council. That

got derailed as the election was complete. The Government basically

put it all into a moratorium on change, as they said. That made the

problems worse. Then it had to come forward with this brutal

Administration process to try and rammed through changes. They got it

completely wrong. What would you have done if you had

a trust losing ?1 million a week? The plans we put through were for a

trust which had got into difficulty. The ability to get a new management

team in quickly to keep the services going. It was never intended as a

vehicle for the service change, the service reconfiguration. That is

where this government has got themselves into difficulty. They

tried to create an entirely new way of making changes to hospitals,

excluding the voice of local people and driving these changes through.

That is where they are wrong. What people will not understand and I do

not understand, why would you take services and use it to plug the gap

in another part of the trust which is doing badly? To make a decision

on one hospital has an impact on another. Across the country,

different services are offered on different sites. All this is

essentially doing is if you're going to make a decision in extremist,

this has only happened twice, it makes sense to me would also take

into consideration the wider health economy. Why would you not close a

failing hospital? Why would you take the good parts of another one to

plug that gap? That does not make sense when you look at it on the

face of it and probably will would not people in that area. It is

geographical. If you are going to say we will concentrate on one

hospital, we will forget that if it is not working, you leave an area

not properly catered for. If you're trying to make a decision for a

region, not a district, you have to take into consideration more than

one hospital. Are you saying that no services should be closed. But in

that situation you have to look at the whole area and see how the

services are spanned across a geographical borough, constituency

or trust. You say it is about the services and the people, surely that

is the best way to look at it, to have a map where you say I can move

that A service and that stroke unit and that will better serve the

whole population? You are right. I made precisely those kind of changes

before the last election. London used to have 12/ units. I reduced

the number 28. We were advised that would improve patient safety and

would improve lives. The clinical case should always drive these

changes. Unless there is a clinical case for change, more lives saved,

disability reduced, in denim I viewed these changes should not go

ahead. -- then in my view, these changes should not go ahead.

Management should not be calling the shots. This is all about trusts

which are failing. If you have got a hospital which is failing, that is

potentially costing lives. You cannot have a longer period of

consultation. In ideal terms, you want to make a decision quickly

because you are dealing with morbidity and mortality. You are

dealing with patients here. There is a broader discussion about

reconfiguration which Andy and I have engaged in both within the

chamber and without. Looking at this legislation as I understand it, you

need to have the ability to make decisions with respect to local

commissioners who all have a say under this legislation. You need to

make decisions swiftly. Isn't it a case and I have had endless

politicians on here saying nobody campaigns for hospital closures, it

is such a difficult emotive subject, it will always be hard to close

services which is why the Secretary of State feels that there has to be

some power that overrides local concerns. There are people who feel

we should take the politics out of the NHS and I have never understood

this argument because the NHS spends billions of pounds every year and

there needs to be political accountability for that and for

hospital closures. Andy Berner knows what it is like to close hospitals,

he had to do it when he was Health Secretary. -- Andy Burnham. I think

some of the language you are using is a emotional but if you are in

power you will be in the same position. We did make closures to

hospitals. I am not coming here saying never make any changes to

hospitals but there is a right way to do things and a wrong way. The

right ways to give local people a voice, put information before them,

have a clinical case for change. But they will never close a hospital.

Did she just slap you? ! How when we are saying localism is the thing we

want and people wanting a greater say, how can we be justifying that

we from London can impose from communities solutions top-down? When

you conduct a consultation, you will never get local people saying this

is a magnificent idea, let's close our hospital. You are wrong. We had

a case in Manchester about maternity and children's services. The art

that was put to people that it was say 50 lives a year. The government

made that argument to people. There was a big debate and carried it

forward. But they will not close our hospital. That was part of a

hospital. Are there some that should be closed? Clearly politics is

involved, a lot of money is being spent on the National Health

Service. When there is a difficulty about consulting local people there

is not a forum for 750,000 people to have their say and that is the type

of population you need to support in a key hospital. You could see the

need for having fewer hospitals. I want to see that because of the

outcomes. As Andy has already mentioned, reconfiguring stroke

services in London has already saved lives. Where I would slightly

disagree in terms of party politics, I am persuaded that unless there is

cross-party agreement where those acute hospitals should be cited, I

do not think we will progress to what we all want which is a better

health service. This is the problem. There needs to be more cross-party

agreement. This clause actually damages that potential. It is about

imposing solutions on communities rather than working with them. I

think it is setting back the cause of making necessary clinical changes

to the way hospitals are provided, rather than building a case for

consensus around change. We will have to leave it there. Thank you

very much. Now, should postal voting be

scrapped for all but those who genuinely need it? Following a File

on Four investigation, one MP thinks so. Conservative Andrew Stephenson

has called for postal voting to be drastically scaled back, because he

thinks it's marred by "real fraud". Since 2001, anyone on the electoral

roll has been able to apply for a postal ballot. But, because voting

takes place in people's homes, the Electoral Commission say there is an

increased risk of fraud. In January they expressed concern about 16

council areas in England, including Mr Stephenson's area of Pendle in

Lancashire. Calls for the Government to re-think the postal voting system

have been backed up by a judge, Richard Mawley, and a returning

officer, Ray Morgan. Mr Morgan says he hasn't seen an election since

2006 that was "totally fair and honest". But the Government have no

plans to change the current system. Cabinet office minister Greg Clark

says the number of cases of abuse in the postal voting system remain

"relatively small" with "the vast majority of people using it in a

law-abiding way". I'm joined now by Andrew Stephenson and Tom Hawthorn

from the Electoral Commission. Andrew Stephenson, postal voting is

encouraging people to vote. When turnout is falling, wouldn't it be

crazy to get rid of it? In my area of Pendle we have seen concerns for

about ten years ever since postal voting was opened up to anyone who

wanted to vote by post as a lifestyle choice, really. I am

perfectly happy for people who need a postal vote, who are away on

holiday, in firm or serving in the Army, perfectly happy for them to

have one. But in areas like mine, what you're seeing is a widespread

perception of fraud. Is widespread? We have conflicting evidence which

says it is relatively small-scale. You're punishing the bulk of the

electorate for fraud which could be limited. I think we have to maximise

voter turnout. The Electoral Commission have to make sure it is

an accessible process for people. In Pendle we have seen in two or three

wards, and across the country, we have the Electoral Commission

identifying 16 local authorities, I think it is the tip of the iceberg.

There is a perception that is undermining confidence in the

electoral system. I think the perception of the problem is as

damaging as a problem itself. It is stopping some people from casting

their ballots because they no longer have confidence in the system.

Richard Mawley has said he came across 14 different ways the postal

ballots could be manipulated, that is indefensible, isn't it? I think

the important thing to recognise is some of those relate back to

elections in 2004 and since then a lot has changed. We realise putting

in place a more open system without security checks might be a mistake

so now people have to provide identifiers which have to be

checked. It is shocking that you said you did not think there had

been a truly honest election, that will be a great shock to people that

you are talking about more recent cases or alleged cases of fraud. The

problem is, if it happens in people's homes, how can you

safeguard against it? I think it is difficult to safeguard in every

single instance but the thing to make clear is every single police

force across the country has a dedicated officer who understands

electoral law and processes, who will investigate allegations which

get raised. They will bring people to justice and people have been sent

to prison for electoral fraud. It is a serious crime. Isn't that a better

way to approach it rather than trying to ban it? They trebled

between 2001 and 2005. In 2010, almost 7 million postal votes were

issued. That is a lot of postal votes. You would risk them not

voting rather than tackle the problem at source. I welcome the

steps taken by the Electoral Commission, I welcome the steps

taken on individual legislation. We have had some interesting proposals

on ID being required at polling stations. I think the elephant in

the room remains on demand postal voting that is wide open to abuse.

Do you think it should stay on demand bearing in mind it has only

started fairly recently? I think until the whole system of voting in

this country is changed, it probably needs to. Why don't we modernise the

system so we do not all have to vote on one day? Why don't we vote over

four or five days? Then we would not have to have postal votes. We all

work in a different way than we did 30 or 40 years ago. You cannot go

back to just having one if you are on holiday, most people work away

from home for a lot of time now. In some by-elections, 30% of the votes

cast are postal votes. It is quite clear that a lot of those are

fraudulent votes. Is it a problem -- is it a case of being a problem in

certain areas? We know that a lot of people have expressed genuinely held

concerns that electoral fraud is more of the problem in certain South

Asian communities. We have not seen enough evidence to back that up. It

is come to back that up. It is a consecrated picture. We are doing

more research this year with academics in some specific

communities where there have been allegations of electoral fraud to

understand what is going on there so the returning officers and the

police can look at what voters who might be more vulnerable. How many

cases do you know of? This is the thing, it is hard to prosecute and

it is people from every community. In my area we have had certain wards

where we have seen lots of anecdotal evidence, we have seen people

turning up at polling stations with 50 or 60 ballot papers to hand in on

polling day. There are clearly serious questions to be answered

here. But we do need to look properly at how we can encourage

turnout. Should we go for weekend voting voting over more than one

day? I think there is a real issue we need to address but simply at the

moment, I have no confidence in the current postal voting system. In

terms of things you could do, what is most likely to change, do you

think between now and if not the next election, the one after that?

There has been evidence that liberalising the voting process

could improve convenience. There is no evidence it would improve

turnout. It would be costly as well. Schools would have to close for more

than one day. Most countries vote on a Sunday. Something to think about.

European and American officials are meeting in London today to discuss

which sanctions can be imposed on Russia in the wake of the crisis in

Ukraine. Under discussion are visa bans, travel restrictions and asset

freezes, although President Putin will be exempt from any

restrictions. The sanctions will be imposed if Russia refuses to engage

diplomatically with the new Ukrainian government and any

decision will be made after the Crimean referendum, which Western

leaders have branded as illegitimate.

At a news conference in Russia this morning, the ousted Ukrainian

President Viktor Yanukovych described the new Ukrainian

authorities as a gang of fascists. That I remain not only the only

legitimate president of Ukraine but I am also the military commander of

Ukraine. I never stopped my authority. As soon as the

circumstances allow me, I am sure it will not be long and I will be back

in here. I say that the elections in Ukraine that were announced to take

place on 25th of May by those who take their power in Ukraine, they

are not legitimate and they are not legal. With me now is the London

Bureau chief of the Voice of Russia, Dmitry Linnik. How is the conflict

being seen by Russians? Do they think they are on the verge of war

with Ukraine? The emotions are running high, obviously. The

strength of the links between Russia and Ukraine, between Russians and

Ukrainians, goes back centuries. It is essentially one nation that is

separated sometime in the 13th century. We joined a game in the

17th. You cannot imagine the strength of feeling about this. Are

they angry about what is going on and what happened to pick 2 yen or

are they wanting to see Vladimir Putin seems strong against the West?

Putin has been strong on a few occasions. That cannot probably be

denied. As for support for President Yanukovitch, I do not think you will

see a lot of that. Do the Crimean support the idea of a referendum?

160 years ago there was a war with Russia over Ukraine, not with

Crimea. Crimea is and has been predominantly Russian despite the 20

years of Ukrainian independence and the whole procedure of signing

Crimea over to Ukraine has not really been accepted by the Russian

people. They never really accepted that idea. Is it a case of taking

back what was ours? In the minds of the Russian people and the Crimean

people. There must be families that are split and divided. How is that

impacted on Russian sentiment and individual families and people? --

impacting. There is a much maligned phrase by President Putin about it

being a political tragedy. That is what is meant when 25 million people

found themselves outside of the country they lived in. They found

them abroad. A lot of people in Ukraine would like closer ties with

Europe and not with Russia. Ukraine is not united. Do you see it

splitting? I hope it does not. The way things are going in Kiev, it may

well be at some point in some form, at least it will be a struggle as a

single country. At the heart of this is Russia 's total disregard for

international borders. It is quite clear that the troops in Crimea are

Russian, even though they seem ashamed to show their badges. If

Russia had a case to annex Crimea, which is what is going on, surely

they should have gone to the United Nations and used established

international procedures to do that. Russia might go to the United

Nations. It is a bit late now, isn't it? If you talk about punishing

Russia, there will be no dialogue. Barack Obama has already said he

understands the concerns of Russia. I am not sure he does. I have yet to

see any evidence of Russian speaking people in Ukraine being abused or

beaten up. If that was happening, I would be the first to say the

Russians have a legitimate area of interest. That has not happened. We

are referring to what has happened in Kiev as a revolution. But entails

the emergence of a different country. Crimea, not Russia, does

not want to be part of that country. Do they have a right to their own

revolution? They should have their referendum. -- own referendum.

Organising it within ten days, we all know what kind of referendum it

will be. We all know that about the election in Ukraine scheduled for

20th of May. One part of the country, the western part, hold sway

over the entire government and Parliament. If people vote in a

certain way in the election, a majority vote in a certain way in

the election, a majority votes 1-way... You are doubting the

validity of the Crimean referendum, Russia doubts... If there was a

referendum in three months' time, you could understand that being

quite valid but not within ten days. You cannot organise a referendum

like that. It is impossible. We go back to at least 1992, 1993, when

the wishes of Crimean people were expressed quite clearly. That is why

Crimea is an autonomous republic. What about giving the Chechens vote?

You would be surprised, Putin and unity with Russia would probably get

90%. Not because people are oppressed or anything. I am sure we

would all like to see the results of that. It looks as if sanctions will

be imposed. Would Russia care? We are talking about contracting the G8

to D7 and that will make it even less relevant. Travel bans,

investment, OK, some Russians will suffer but so will the city of

London, I suppose. You are talking about gas in a longer term. Russia,

5%, 6% of Russia 's export revenue comes from gas. We are talking

geopolitics. Barack Obama said it is not about that but it is. Tomorrow,

we will have an interview with the Ukrainian ambassador to the UK.

Forget the Oscars, the Emmys or the Booker Prize. Here, in Westminster,

there's another awards ceremony that's got everyone talking, the

Political Book Awards. It's a big business from biographies to

fiction, although those two categories sometimes might have more

in common than they should. But what makes a good political book? Here's

David. All human life can be found on the

shelves at Waterstones. If you are a political junkie, there is plenty

here to feed to your habit. This brings you the benefit of the wisdom

of great writers, thinkers and even MPs on politics. What makes a truly

great political books and out from the rest? There are all sorts of

things you might want to look for. Telling you about things you know or

introducing you to something different. You might want it to

guide you. When I first became A Minister, I read a book by Gerald

Kaufmann on how to become A Minister. It was sort of the

handbook that you used. That is the kind of book the professionals read.

What do they really get up to behind closed doors? You know what they

said about the Harold Wilson Cabinet. They were all too busy

listening to the arguments array -- because they were busy writing that

own diaries. They contain the frank expressions of opinion of a

particular time. Who thwarted you in the cabinet? Who can you not trust

over a piece of legislation you are trying to pilot through? Who is the

rising star in the party who is sporting your ambitions? What about

the authors, usually politicians, who want to dish the dirt on their

rivals? Fun? Are they the best books? There are a few political

biographies that are more about self-justification and settling

scores than they are really about eliminating anything for anyone. In

those cases, I just wish you had kept these things to yourself. We

can all think about people like Crossman, Clark and Machiavelli, but

how does the Chandra stack up these days? There is a greater requirement

for research. So much is on the internets. It is much easier to

retrieve information. You get more detail. Now is as good a time as

any. We're in a strained in. We are in a government. In terms of

questions, we are looking at British identity with the Scottish

referendum. These issues can all be addressed. We live in interesting

times. Chances are something someone is writing today will become a

political classic of tomorrow. And joining me now is the Conservative

peer and novelist, who has a book up for an award, Michael Dobbs. Second

year of the political book awards. How important is it that a

competition like this exists? A lot of people think it is dusty and very

boring. We wanted to celebrate it. It is not just about great works of

biography or autobiography. It is political fiction. I think it is

very underrated. If you look back over the years to some of the great

political writers, Disraeli wrote novels. Douglas Hurd wrote some

outstanding novels. I do not think people appreciate this enough. Do

enough people read them? They may be very good books but it is about

accessibility to a wider audience. How do you make political fiction

reach a wider audience? Introduce Michael Dobbs! I want to endorse

everything that Ian says about this. He does. He is creating a bigger

interest. We all have to bang a drum occasionally. We are all far too

busy to do that. We left it with and die on the vine at times. The whole

point about political fiction is that people think it is about

politics. -- we let it with and die. It is about people and relationships

and what drives us. When you think about Westminster in that sense, you

realise it forms a better and more colourful backdrop for a great piece

of writing than any other circumstance. It does not have to be

fiction. Real politics can sometimes make quite an interesting read in

terms of relationships and policies if you like in certain areas. Are

you talking about Damian McBride? That is one of the books up for the

main award. I published it so I have an interest in it. Anyone who has

read it, it reads like the drama. There are literally jaw-dropping

moments on every page. It is not a dry, political autobiography. There

are many more examples like that. Rather like the diaries of Alan

Clark. They should never have been written because they were

disgraceful, outrageous. They were great to read! You talk about books

gathering dust on the shelves but there are a lot of dry, political

books. Jacqui Smith said, this idea that actually everyone is thinking

about their memoirs. Everyone is thinking about self-justification

and where they fit in the historical legacy. Use a dry, political tomes.

A lot of people would consider them dry, political tomes. Most

politicians have experienced something interesting in their

careers. If they have not they should never have gone into

politics. It is good when they write them down. When I get offered

political autobiographies, I am writing this for my grandchildren,

it is said. You are also writing it to get your side of the story into

history. It is about putting, why I was right!

I think it was Norman Tebbit who said I wish the biographies would

concentrate on the lies which were told at the time rather than those

they wished but were. It is a work of fiction about yourself. So many

books were written about Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and there is a

feeling that in a lot of those books they did not tell us anything we did

not know already. I absolutely disagree. If you read all of them,

and unfortunately I have! You will find something new in every single

book. You do not even need to look that hard. It is very rare that

someone writes an absolute turkey of a book. There is usually something

to come out of them somewhere. What do you look for in a good political

book? I look for inspiration, ambition and an element of

wickedness which is essential for a great political career. The least

said about Peter Mandelson's oil graffiti! Moving swiftly on, thank

you. -- Just who does the Conservative Party represent?

A recent survey asked voters what they thought of David Cameron and

the most common description people chose was "posh and out of touch",

while 51% of voters believe that "the Conservative Party only

represents the interests of the rich". But one Conservative MP is

determined to re-brand his party into the party of the workers.

Robert Halfon is calling for a "radical change in the very nature

of the party" so that it represents what he calls white van

conservatives. He believes they should stand up for public sector

workers with a strengthened minimum wage and the introduction of a

living wage. Mr Halfon, who's a member of Prospect union, says the

Conservative Party should call itself the Workers' Party, and swap

its logo from a tree to a ladder to represent what he claims is the the

"moral mission that has always provided the foundation of

Conservative values." Robert Halfon is with us now along with the Labour

MP Ian Lavery. Welcome to you both. Robert Halfon first of all, your

leader is seen as posh and out of touch. 51% of people think your

party only cares about the rich. Best of luck for your trial to get

it to a worker 's party. Actually, I think the government are doing a lot

to ensure we do represent the people. We have taken money out of

income tax, we have helped with fuel duty and extending right to buy. Why

did 51% think you only care about the rich? If we are the part of

hard-working people, that is why I think long-term we should change our

name to Workers' Party and have the symbol of a ladder because we have

always been about helping people into work. You brought issues like

petrol duty to the fore but the Conservatives are committed to

shrinking the public sector, they froze the pale public sector

workers, they cut the 50% -- 50p top rate of tax. But we have increased

apprenticeships, we have increased jobs by 1.5 million, we have cut tax

for lower earners. We have cut taxes for 25 million lower earners. We are

extending right to buy so people though incomes can buy their own

home. People might say it is people on middle incomes who can benefit

from that. Ian Lavery, what you make of Robert Halfon's attempt to

rebrand the party? Fire macro I think it is laughable. To think the

Conservative Party would change their motto to a ladder and call

themselves the workers party. It is an absolute joke. They are quite

simply not a workers' party. I'm not sure what the ladder seems to

indicate. The fact that Robert insulted tens of thousands of my

constituents in the north-east region two weeks ago, for daring to

come to London to watch a football game, castigate them for being

soccer hooligans. That is what they think of working class people. Is

Labour still the party of the workers when all we hear from Ed

Miliband is about the squeezed middle. John Cruddas whose leading

Labour's policy review a couple of years ago, was that Labour targeted

a mythical Middle England. We have taken the working class for granted

and many of them now are seeking solace in UKIP. I hope the manifesto

would give some great ideas, some ideas which are quite different from

what the Tories are looking at at this moment in time, which would

encourage these voters back. We lost 5 million voters at the last

election. The job of Ed Miliband and the Labour Party is to encourage

those voters back to the party. The only way to do that is with

manifesto pledges which affect hard-working ordinary people. We

have got to get rid of food bank Britain, zero hours and

underemployment. How will you attract those working class voters?

The problem with the Labour Party is they used to be the workers party

but now they have become the party of the safety net. What the

Conservative Party and the Conservative led coalition has done

is give people ladder is. If you want to work, they help you into

work. If you are working, they give you better schools, they increased

apprenticeships, they cut your taxes specifically if you are lower

earners. They do not keep people on dependence. We are about aspiration

and they are about the safety net. That is the big difference. Do you

think the Tories have lost their white van man appeal? To an extent I

think so. If you think back to the 1980s when workers' conservative, if

you can call it that -- workers' conservatism, if you think back to

the 1980s, who was it who gave the working class people a chance to buy

their homes or buy shares? I could go on. That was a long time ago. I

think that has changed now in that the Conservative Party is considered

to be for the rich. You have five out of the six people drafting the

next Tory manifesto having been to Eton. And they are all men. How was

that allowed to happen? Nick De Bois is going around the media saying the

40p tax threshold should be raised. It allows the Labour Party to paint

the Tories as the party which is trying to help the better off

people. In reality, we have said we want a decent increase in the

minimum wage, we have frozen fuel duty and council tax. The national

living wage... Will Labour support the living wage through all

industries and the public sector? I think it is something that should be

a minimum demand as far as I am concerned. How happy are you, you

talked about the number of people at the top of the Conservative Party at

Eton, or who went to Eton, they are not still there, but what about the

Labour front bench? They also part of the elite, the Metropolitan elite

many of them, and political careerists, do they have anything in

common with your constituents? I think where people are educated has

little to do with it. So Eton jives... You have not heard me

criticise anyone from the Burlington club. It is policy is not people as

far as I am concerned, not where you were educated. The other macro what

people want to know is that we are on their side. Howl worried are you

both of you by UKIP? You made those remarks and you said they made the

-- you said they did the Conservative Party a favour. Many

UKIP voters are people who are Eurosceptic and I am Eurosceptic. We

have to address the concerns on issues like immigration. It is a

complete myth that many of the UKIP voters and supporters are

disgruntled conservatives, they are all leaving Labour. Especially in

the north. That is a myth. The people who are leaving political

parties to join UKIP are mainly from the Conservative Party, not the

Labour Party. Of course we have got to focus on UKIP. The voice of

complacency there. Now do you enjoy a flutter? I

personally prefer popping down to the bookies to place my accumulator,

none of this online betting. Whether it's the dogs or the horses the UK

has a long history of racing. Ian Lavery thinks more needs to be done

to encourage young people to be interested in the dogs. Here's his

soapbox. This is Newcastle greyhound track.

It is a thriving greyhound track with five meetings per week.

Unfortunately, that is not the case for other greyhound tracks in the

UK. Greyhound racing was first legally staged in the UK in 1926 in

Manchester. It proved an instant hit. Particularly with the working

classes and there were crowds of up to 50,000 people. Working men would

go to the track straight from work to place a bet. But in the 1960s,

when off-course betting shops were legalised, people did not have to

visit a track to have a flutter. That is not the case now with the

Internet. I have been involved in greyhound racing for 30 years, just

before the miners' strike. I have had some fast dogs, some not so fast

dogs and some slow ones. I currently have seven dogs which are racing.

The number of stadiums has dropped from 80 to 25 in England over the

past 25 years. Portsmouth, Reading and Milton Keynes have all closed

following a fall in profits. Greyhound racing has gone from the

third to fourth most obtained spectator sport after football,

horse racing and rugby. The sites are owned by property developers and

earmarked for homes. The average age for a greyhound trainer is 65 years

of age. We have to make sure to make sure we have a sustainable future is

to encourage young people into the sport. We need apprentices who are

paid a decent wage, a living wage, these other who make sure these

wonderful animals are run so well on the track at every meeting.

Greyhound racing employs thousands of people and with ?2.5 billion

raised at races each year, it generates huge sums for the

Exchequer. We need to make sure this magnificent sport flourishes well

into the future and gives as much pleasure to thousands of spectators

as it has two me. Should we be encouraging young people to bet?

That is not what I have been saying. They want to be involved in

this wonderful sport, evolved with animals, have a decent job. Giving

young people proper apprenticeships with an education and scale and

talent, that is what I would be advocating. What about the dogs

themselves? You do hear stories that once they're racing days are over

they are not very well treated. I have had countless dogs. I

understand there have been welfare problems and I would not try to

dismiss that but there is a lot of good work going on behind the scenes

with various trusts which are re-homing dogs and making sure they

have got a fantastic life when their career is finished on the track. The

dogs I have had have all had a fantastic life after they have

finished racing. That is the sort of thing we need to be concentrating

on. Thank you very much. Thanks to our guests. There were a lot of

them. Thank you particular you, Iain Dale. The one o'clock news is

starting now. I will be back tomorrow. Goodbye.