01/05/2014 Daily Politics


01/05/2014

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LineFromTo

Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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in connection with one of the most notorious IRA murders.

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in Antrim over the execution of Jean McConville,

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a widowed mother of ten who was dragged from her home in 1972.

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Labour bigwigs gather in London's East End for the launch

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of their election campaign today, as the party declares war

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I'm looking forward to the bank holiday weekend.

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But others think we should ditch the so-called workers? day

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And with us for the whole programme today is the journalist and author,

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He's Margaret Thatcher's official biographer, for which he

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Now first today, let?s turn our attention to Northern Ireland

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The Sinn Fein leader spent the night being questioned by

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police investigating the murder of Jean McConville over 40 years ago.

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The widowed mother of ten was abducted and shot dead by the IRA

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in 1972 after she was wrongly accused of being an informer.

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Last night, Gerry Adams was detained after he voluntarily attended Antrim

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We can speak now to our Ireland Correspondent,

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Mark, Gerry Adams was arrested yesterday and the terrorism act of

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2000. What happens now? Well, the detectives who are investigating the

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murder of Jean McConville have 24 hours initially to talk to Mr Adams,

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which would take us until eight o'clock tonight. If a superintendent

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decides there are sufficient grounds for another 24 hours, that is all

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they need, the word of the superintendent, to hold him for 48

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hours. After that, if they need a further extension, they would have

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to go to a judge to apply for that and they would have to be in

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agreement about the number of days or hours he could be held.

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Potentially, the terrorism act allows for people to be held up to

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28 days, but that is unusual and given the high-profile nature of it

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Adams, they would have to have a very serious reason to think they

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needed that kind of time. Our people shocked and surprised by the arrest?

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I think the surprise is that he is an extremely high-profile figure,

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the leader of the second largest party in Northern Ireland and the

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party which is making increasing inroads south of the Irish border.

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They are involved in a European election and are expected to top the

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poll in Northern Ireland and potentially get three MEPs elected

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south of the border. So there is the surprise. But anyone who has

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followed the story of Jean McColgan knows that detectives have been

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examining some tapes recorded by ex-IRA members, some of them dead,

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in which they have said they have knowledge of this case. That has led

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to the arrest of one veteran Republican who was active in Belfast

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around that time. He is has been charged with aiding and abetting in

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this murder, and there were reports that Gerry Adams was involved,

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reports which he denies. As you say, he has always protested his

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innocence over this. Sinn Fein are saying the timing of Gerry Adams'

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arrest is politically motivated because of the elections around the

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corner. Yes, the political argument is that Sinn Fein are pointing out

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that about four weeks ago, after this other Irish republican was

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arrested, Gerry Adams offered to talk to the police. They are saying,

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why did the police not to take him up on his offer at that stage?

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Detectives will no doubt say they needed to take their time to go

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through the evidence and decide who they wanted to talk to. But Sinn

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Fein said the timing is politically motivated because the election

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campaign is at its height and Sinn Fein's opponents are saying Gerry

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Adams must not be above the law. The police must do their job. This

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argument will play out in public later today, because we have a

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meeting of the policing board whether most senior officers in the

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PSNI will face questions in public, the politicians. You mentioned these

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tapes that were recorded in Boston by an American university with

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former paramilitary is. Does the investigation hinge on those tapes?

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We don't know for sure whether there is any additional evidential trail

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is that the police are following, but we do expect the tapes to

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feature strongly. There will be a question mark as to whether they

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will eventually be seen as being at miserable in terms of evidence. The

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tapes were recorded for an academic project and were not meant to be

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released until those who had given interviews did. We did get the

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deaths of a couple of people, and those tapes then came into the

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public domain. We also have an American but case which ended up

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with the PSNI being granted permission to seize other material

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from that academic project. It is thought that that is one of the

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other reasons why they are questioning either Bell about this.

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But we believe Gerry Adams had no part in that project, so we don't

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expect there to be any tapes involving him himself. So there will

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be a question mark over whether tape-recorded conversations of

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anybody talking about Gerry Adams will be considered admissible. A

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former IRA commander accused Gerry Adams of Jean McConville's murder

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before his death in 2008. Here is a recording of what he said. This

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woman was taken away and executed. Jean McConville. There is only one

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man who gave the order for that woman to be executed. That man is

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now the head of Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams maintained his

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innocence. This was him speaking before his arrest last night. I am

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going voluntarily to talk to the PSNI, because there has been a

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lengthy, malicious campaign against me. I will tell the PSNI that I am

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innocent of any part in the abduction and killing of Jean

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McConville. In an emotional interview to the Today programme

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this morning, Jean McConville's son said he knew who murdered his

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mother, but was unwilling to a unveiled that information. Let's

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listen to what he had to say. If I told the police anything about it,

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me or my family members would get shot by these people. Probably

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thinks this has all gone away. It hasn't gone away. People get

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targeted all the day. I am not saying by the IRA. But they would

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class you as an informant and they would shoot you.

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We're joined now from Belfast by Derek Henderson,

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who was PA's Ireland Correspondent for over 30 years.

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And in the studio, we have Naomi Long from the Alliance Party.

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Your reaction firstly to the arrest of Gerry Adams? The important thing

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to bear in mind is the feelings of the McConville family. We have to

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remember that this is a very difficult day for them and

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re-awakens the feelings they have about the disappearance of their

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mother 40 years ago. If the police believe they have reason to question

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Gerry Adams, it is important that they feel they can do that

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regardless of the profile of the person, regardless of the political

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position. It is important that we are treated equally under the law.

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That is important for people to take away from this. It will clearly draw

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attention because of his profile, but that should not preclude the

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police following their investigations. Derek Henderson,

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what is your reaction to the arrest of Gerry Adams? It does not come as

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any great surprise. Those of us who have been following this case for

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several years knew there was an inevitability about it. Gerry Adams

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has consistently denied any involvement in this case. One man

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has been charged with aiding and abetting in the murder of Jean

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McColgan. -- Jean McConville. Gerry Adams has known for some time that

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the police would eventually come knocking on his door. He agreed

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through a solicitor to present himself to the police last night. It

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was all well choreographed, well orchestrated by Sinn Fein. I

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understand Mr Adams sought some sort of assurances that there would be no

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publicity in advance of his arrest and the police did not release his

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name, but it did not prevent him giving a pre-recorded interview. And

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at the same time, Sinn Fein issued a statement where he categorically

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denied any involvement in the murder. Did you know the McConville

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family? I met them once or twice over the years. As you can imagine,

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they have been living with this for over 40 years. It has had an awful

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impact on them, especially when their mother was taken away and

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interrogated, had her hands tied behind her back and then was shot in

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the back of the head. The family were traumatised. They were split up

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and taken into care. were traumatised. They were split up

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and taken Are you surprised that now? I was shocked, listening to

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Michael McConville said, I saw the faces of the men who took my mother

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away, but I will still not say who they were. Well, up to a dozen

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people, both men and women were involved in her abduction. It was

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the early days of the troubles. It was chaotic on the streets of

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Belfast. One can only begin to imagine what it must have been like

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that night when this guy arrived at the house and took Jean McConville

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away. It was an awful scene. What about now, Naomi Long? There is a

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fear that clearly still exists in communities in Northern Ireland. Is

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that a truer representation of how people feel in some parts of

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Northern Ireland than the impression we get over here? It would be true

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to say that there have been huge improvements in Northern Ireland,

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that has not diminished the influence of paramilitary 's in

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terms of the degree to which they can control and intimidate within

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local communities. We saw that fear reflected in what Michael said, that

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those who are dissident or have previously threatened his family may

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do so again if they feel their current position was under threat

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because of any statement he would make. People will be shocked by

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that. Do you think that is just how it is? It is not shocking for those

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of us who live in Northern Ireland with it daily. I regularly receive

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complaints from my constituents about crimes committed by people who

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they know, but they are afraid pass that information to the police

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because of fear of retribution because those people may have

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paramilitary contacts. That is clearly not acceptable. The police

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try to provide opportunities for people to give information through

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confidential telephone lines. That does not work in a case like this

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where the information could clearly only come from the immediate family.

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So I can understand how difficult it must be. We also have to be

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compassionate. What an awful thing to know, that you hold the

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information that could lead to the conviction of those who brutalised

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your mother, and yet feel too frightened for your own family to

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speak out about it. It is a testament to why we need to deal

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with our past in Northern Ireland, because it casts a long shadow over

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the present. We will come to that issue over whether they're still

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need is to be delving into the past to move ahead, but do you think

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justice will be done for the McConville family here? That remains

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to be seen. Where the evidential trail leads, we are not clear. We

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know it started with the tapes at Boston College. Is that enough to

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establish a prima facie case against anybody? I don't know. We will have

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to wait and see. As Mark Devenport went about early, Gerry Adams could

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be released as early as eight o'clock tonight, or he could be held

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for another 24 hours with a superintendent's extension. To go

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beyond that, they have to go to the courts to hold him for 28 days. I

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doubt that will happen. What about the future? You talked about the

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fact that there has to be a raking over of the past to move forward.

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How much further has Northern Ireland got to go? It is not about

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raking over the past. The problem is that we have a piecemeal approach to

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dealing with the past, tit-for-tat. People have no confidence that there

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is equality under the law. For a stable future in Northern Ireland,

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we need a comprehensive approach to the past. That was what we said

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during the talks by Richard Haass earlier in the year. I believe we

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cannot have a lasting peace unless it is built on the foundations of

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the rule of law and justice. We have to put respect for families and

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victims at the heart of what we do if we are to move forward in a way

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that has integrity. Are you optimistic 's it is a difficult

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point in Northern Ireland's history, but yes, I am optimistic

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about the future. We have gone a long way since I was born in 1971. I

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was one-year-old when Jean McConville was abducted. You are the

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future. Actually, there are people younger than me who I think are the

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future, but I am in politics because I believe their future ought to be

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better. What about young people in Northern Ireland? Is there a sense

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among those younger than you who feel they would just like to move

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on, which was why I mentioned the past? Do they think, we need to put

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this behind us, or is there still a strong sense of a feeling for

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justice amongst the youth? It varies. Around 80% of young people

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recently felt they wanted to make a life for themselves outside of

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Northern Ireland, but I don't think we can move forward without being

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just over the past. This is their present, not their past. We need to

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work to heal it. Sinn Fein has said this is politically motivated

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because of the elections. What do you say? I don't agree with that.

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Sinn Fein knew well live in advance this was going to happen. They knew

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eventually Gerry Adams was going to be questioned. This is just part of

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the process that is going to go on, and will continue, I would expect,

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for several months. Charles Moore, one of the issues is economic

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progress in Northern Ireland. Do you think that would be a momentous leap

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forward if people felt better off across the board in Northern

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Ireland, and then were not encouraged to engage in politically

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motivated activities in the way they have been in the past? It always

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helps. This does all have to be cleared up. Gerry Adams has been

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privileged through this process. In a very bad way. One of the group of

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people who were -- resent that are a lot of IRA people who fell out with

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him. They think they went through this combat, as they see it, which I

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would call murder, and he was with them. Then he comes out the other

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side with all of the fruits and all of the benefits. He is an allegedly

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respected figure. They do not like that. And they do not feel that is

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fair. Ordinary decent people in Northern Ireland do not feel it is

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fair because the friends of Jerry are important, that the authorities

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do not go after him. We had that with the John Downey question about

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the alleged Hyde Park bombing. Was there an amnesty laid out by the

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last British government? Interestingly, Gerry Adams has been

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hoisted by zone petard now. -- his own petard. He was not on the wanted

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list. He did not provide for his own protection. A lot of his gang are

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protected. It is interesting to see him caught on this one. Do you think

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he has had preferential treatment? Part of the difficulty is that the

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police have been trying to find evidence. It is fine to talk about

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what everyone knows people have done. Ultimately you have two pass

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an evidential threshold. While there may be rumours, they now have an

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inquiry lead. They are following that. I don't think anybody,

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regardless of their political position, ought to be above the law.

:18:15.:18:19.

It is an important message at a critical time because of the

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exposure of the on the run scheme, that people get that message very

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clearly, that nobody should be above the law. It is an important message

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to send to dissident republicans, who are currently engaged in

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violence, and loyalists who are doing the same thing. Deric

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Henderson, there was a discussion at the time we were talking about those

:18:41.:18:45.

on the run. Was it a price worth paying in order to secure peace, as

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some people have characterised it? You have to remember that when the

:18:52.:19:00.

so called on the runs was an issue, they were not granted amnesty. Their

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legal representatives sought assurances if they were wanted for

:19:12.:19:15.

questioning. This is not an amnesty. Who knows what this might lead to in

:19:16.:19:21.

the future? People who were granted permission to return to Northern

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Ireland, there is nothing to say at this stage they may not face charges

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in the future. I do very much. -- thank you very

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much. All week, we've been discussing the

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upcoming elections later this month. Today it's the turn of the Labour

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Party to launch their campaign. In a moment,

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we'll be speaking to Sadiq Khan, the shadow justice secretary

:19:41.:19:42.

but first, here's Giles with news Labour have announced policy details

:19:43.:19:45.

for private landlords. This morning,

:19:46.:19:56.

Ed Miliband said housing costs were "one of the biggest causes of the

:19:57.:19:59.

cost of living crisis", and warned that increasing numbers of people

:20:00.:20:02.

face "terrible insecurity" at the Here's how he wants to solve

:20:03.:20:05.

the problem. In a bid to prevent people being

:20:06.:20:12.

forced out of their homes by huge rent hikes,

:20:13.:20:15.

landlords will be restricted to one rent review a year and required by

:20:16.:20:18.

law to keep it below a set level. Details of how that ceiling would be

:20:19.:20:22.

calculated are yet to be resolved, but it's thought that it could be

:20:23.:20:26.

based on average rents Ed Miliband also wants to legislate

:20:27.:20:29.

to ban the charges imposed on tenants when they sign

:20:30.:20:33.

a rental agreement - these fees average around ?350 per person,

:20:34.:20:36.

but can go up to as much as ?500. Tenants would get

:20:37.:20:40.

a three-year deal as long as they paid the rent on time

:20:41.:20:44.

and were not guilty of anti-social Landlords could only serve them with

:20:45.:20:51.

two months' notice to leave with "good reason", such as rent arrears,

:20:52.:20:57.

anti-social behaviour or breaches of The Adam Smith Institute says it is

:20:58.:21:07.

one of the worst policy decisions We can speak to Sam Bowman,

:21:08.:21:19.

who's research director there. You have said that only bombing

:21:20.:21:30.

would be worse than rent control. Why do you say that? I

:21:31.:21:39.

the socialist Swedish economist. It is one of the few issues that unites

:21:40.:21:41.

left and right. is one of the few issues that unites

:21:42.:21:47.

in economics. 95% of is one of the few issues that unites

:21:48.:21:51.

think rent control is a bad idea. It amazes me that Labour is going

:21:52.:21:55.

think rent control is a bad idea. It this road. The proposals they are

:21:56.:22:00.

announcing and as bad as the controls we associate with absolute

:22:01.:22:02.

destruction of cities. It is more like petty vandalism. There was a

:22:03.:22:07.

destruction of cities. It is more study in the

:22:08.:22:08.

destruction of cities. It is more controlled buildings were 7% worse

:22:09.:22:10.

in terms of the comparable buildings that were not

:22:11.:22:13.

controlled. Three years later, they comparable buildings that were not

:22:14.:22:19.

were 13% worse. Rent controls like this have a bad

:22:20.:22:23.

were 13% worse. Rent controls like quality of property. They do not

:22:24.:22:23.

help renters either. quality of property. They do not

:22:24.:22:38.

rent control? It is quality of property. They do not

:22:39.:22:44.

problem. The only way this can help renters is if

:22:45.:22:47.

problem. The only way this can help quickly. Landlords will price in the

:22:48.:22:54.

expected rising rents. Renters do gain if rent increase faster than

:22:55.:22:57.

people anticipate. They lose if rents fall or do not increase

:22:58.:23:04.

quickly. It is potluck for renters. It ties renters into a location.

:23:05.:23:11.

Because landlords have to increase rents significantly, people in

:23:12.:23:15.

relatively low places, relatively cheaper places, are discouraged and

:23:16.:23:22.

find it harder to move around. David Blanchflower, the Economist, has

:23:23.:23:27.

done quite a lot of work on this. People find it harder to move around

:23:28.:23:31.

25 jobs. I worry that this kind of proposal, even though it sounds

:23:32.:23:37.

nice, will renters. And it will probably reduce supply and even

:23:38.:23:40.

increase unemployment. Across the board we have to listen to

:23:41.:23:46.

economists and look at the evidence. They give very much.

:23:47.:23:48.

And we're joined from the Labour campaign launch in Redbridge

:23:49.:23:51.

by Sadiq Khan. Is this another policy announcement by Labour to

:23:52.:24:03.

intervene in the market where you think it has failed? Is an example

:24:04.:24:07.

of us understanding the cost of living crisis people are facing and

:24:08.:24:12.

having the solutions. Nine million people in this country rent from

:24:13.:24:18.

private landlords. 2 million children live in private

:24:19.:24:21.

accommodation. One of the big problems I see is that the

:24:22.:24:25.

uncertainty, instability in relation to how long they have been in this

:24:26.:24:30.

property. Also, no idea of how to plan because the landlord could

:24:31.:24:33.

raise the rent overnight. What this is saying is you know in advance

:24:34.:24:41.

what the rent will be. After six months, you can have up to three

:24:42.:24:47.

years. You can properly plan. Your children are not plucked out of

:24:48.:24:50.

their schools. You know what the rent will be over the next period.

:24:51.:24:53.

There is the opportunity to review it upwards or downwards. It will be

:24:54.:24:58.

up to a maximum of a ceiling, which means both sides know what the rent

:24:59.:25:03.

will be. Had either any idea what that CAP should be? We are going to

:25:04.:25:10.

work with industry to make sure we come up with a ceiling that works

:25:11.:25:14.

for all parties. We have seen in Ireland where they introduced a

:25:15.:25:19.

ceiling and long-term tenancy, more properties becoming available. An

:25:20.:25:27.

increase. What we're going to do is, over the next period, not impose

:25:28.:25:30.

what the rent should be, work the industry so that the tenant and

:25:31.:25:35.

landlords in cases can agree the rent. And see the best way of going

:25:36.:25:41.

forward. How will that change anything that exists at the moment?

:25:42.:25:46.

Landlords can actually break their tenancy agreement at any point.

:25:47.:25:52.

Refurbishing the property. If there is a breach of the tenancy

:25:53.:25:57.

agreement. In other words, at any point, the landlords, under your

:25:58.:26:01.

supposedly new rent controls, can actually just in the tenancy. There

:26:02.:26:07.

will be no more security of tenure. No, that's wrong. The current

:26:08.:26:18.

position is a landlord gives a tenant a tenancy of six months. It

:26:19.:26:23.

can sometimes be 12 months. During that time, landlords can terminate

:26:24.:26:27.

the agreement. At the end of that six months or 12 months, if the

:26:28.:26:30.

landlord wants the tenants to carry on, can increase the rent. What we

:26:31.:26:43.

are saying is during that three years, a landlord can kick you out

:26:44.:26:46.

unless you have not paid your rent or there has been anti-social

:26:47.:26:50.

behaviour. Let's say for example the landlord wants to move back into the

:26:51.:26:56.

home for his family. Yes, all the exemptions I have just given you.

:26:57.:27:01.

No. At the moment a landlord can get rid of you with no reason at all.

:27:02.:27:09.

This is protection for the tenant. They will not be paying this

:27:10.:27:14.

whopping upfront free -- fee to the letting agents. The most pressing

:27:15.:27:19.

problem is housing supply and housing stock. How will this

:27:20.:27:22.

increase housing supply? It will bring it down, want it? Back in

:27:23.:27:32.

September, October, when Ed Miliband announced our plans to build 200,000

:27:33.:27:36.

houses a year by the end of the next Labour government, we also said we

:27:37.:27:43.

would give the power to use it or lose it. To give planning

:27:44.:27:50.

authorities the opportunity. We are increasing the supply side of

:27:51.:27:56.

things. 200,000 houses a year and next Labour government. The

:27:57.:27:58.

important announcement today is addressing the issue of the 9

:27:59.:28:01.

million people who rent from private landlords, concerned about the

:28:02.:28:06.

length of their tenure, the amount of rent they pay and being ripped

:28:07.:28:10.

off by letting agents. Charles Moore, is this a good idea, when

:28:11.:28:15.

many people feel rents have spiralled out of control and tenants

:28:16.:28:18.

do not have much power over rogue landlords? No,, the dearth of

:28:19.:28:31.

supply. You quite rightly raise the fundamental issue behind all of

:28:32.:28:35.

this. The shortage of housing stock. There were fewer than 150,000 houses

:28:36.:28:40.

being built a year. Our population is growing in volume terms more than

:28:41.:28:44.

it has ever grown in the whole of its history. We probably need about

:28:45.:28:52.

300,000 houses. Labour-saving will address that problem. Yes, but they

:28:53.:28:59.

are not going to do so radically. Labour seem to be in a better

:29:00.:29:02.

position to do this than the Tories. They should abolish the green belt.

:29:03.:29:06.

The green belt is a massive restriction on housing where it is

:29:07.:29:10.

needed. More land in Surrey is given over to golf courses than houses. I

:29:11.:29:17.

know the viewers in Surrey will be annoyed with me for saying that. But

:29:18.:29:22.

it is a very important point. The next generation cannot get on the

:29:23.:29:24.

housing ladder because of the cost of housing. This policy is damaging

:29:25.:29:29.

that. They should be addressing the real issue. Lets just find out

:29:30.:29:33.

briefly how popular this might be. To find out how popular this might

:29:34.:29:37.

be we can speak now to Gideon Labour is sending a mixed message?

:29:38.:29:49.

Labour is all ready doing well among renters. I don't think this policy

:29:50.:29:54.

will harm them. Whether it will change anybody's mind about voting

:29:55.:29:57.

for them, that is a different matter. There are many other things

:29:58.:30:01.

people are concerned about. I know that Labour people are worried about

:30:02.:30:05.

this. Their opponents are banking on that. How much of a problem is Ed

:30:06.:30:10.

Miliband? It is certainly one of the things for Labour to be worried

:30:11.:30:16.

about. Ed Miliband's ratings are not as high, for example, as David

:30:17.:30:21.

Cameron's work or Tony Blair's word before they won elections. -- work.

:30:22.:30:30.

They are still giving Labour lead in our most recent political monitor

:30:31.:30:34.

earlier this month. Labour's lead was in line with its average over

:30:35.:30:38.

the last year of about six points. Not quite as high as they were

:30:39.:30:43.

getting just after the shambles in 2012. It is still enough to give

:30:44.:30:50.

them a majority. Let's get reaction from Sadiq Khan. Let's talk about

:30:51.:30:59.

the elections. Whether or not this policy on rent controls does

:31:00.:31:04.

anything towards the elections, why is Labour not in the lead according

:31:05.:31:11.

to the polls? Firstly, we have unveiled a cost of living contracts

:31:12.:31:15.

which has ten points which will address the cost of living crisis

:31:16.:31:19.

that people face. This policy announcement is one of the ten. In

:31:20.:31:23.

relation to the elections of May the 22nd, not only do we have important

:31:24.:31:27.

European elections, but we have council elections as well. In London

:31:28.:31:34.

as well as around the country. People should member that distrust

:31:35.:31:41.

across the board has never been greater. From a position where

:31:42.:31:49.

Labour Party got the second worst results in history, Ed Miliband has

:31:50.:31:52.

brought us back into the ballpark. People have asked us questions about

:31:53.:31:56.

what we would do and we have a healthy lead. Over the next 22 days

:31:57.:32:01.

in the context of European elections and the council elections, we have

:32:02.:32:04.

to persuade the British public that we are the one-party that gets the

:32:05.:32:10.

cost of living crisis, and we are the one party with the solutions.

:32:11.:32:13.

The general election is for people to ask the question in May 2015, and

:32:14.:32:21.

my better off than I was in May 2010 and will my children be better off

:32:22.:32:24.

in the future with the Tory led government? Who has the vision for

:32:25.:32:28.

our country? Who can address the challenges for today and tomorrow?

:32:29.:32:33.

You yourself said in terms of the three main parties, you claim you

:32:34.:32:36.

are the ones dealing with the cost of living crisis, the narrative that

:32:37.:32:40.

Labour has been promoting. But why are UKIP topping the poll in the

:32:41.:32:44.

European election? You are the opposition. You say you have a five

:32:45.:32:51.

point lead ahead of the Tories. Why are you 11 points behind UKIP? We

:32:52.:33:00.

have to accept that there is an anti-politics feeling. Whenever you

:33:01.:33:04.

do a public platform on politics programme like Question Time Kaunda

:33:05.:33:07.

nonpolitician gets the biggest round of applause. As politicians, we are

:33:08.:33:12.

not appearing to connect the British public. I take on the chin the

:33:13.:33:16.

criticism of us appearing to be not in touch with the British public. If

:33:17.:33:21.

you are not one of the mainstream parties and you give the impression

:33:22.:33:24.

of being anti-politics and not the establishment, the public wants to

:33:25.:33:28.

punish the mainstream parties by voting for the nonmainstream

:33:29.:33:33.

political party. I would say, look at UKIP's policies on the NHS or the

:33:34.:33:39.

national minimum wage or other issues, and ask yourself the

:33:40.:33:43.

question, before you protest by voting for UKIP, whether you really

:33:44.:33:47.

want them winning. But was it a good strategy painting some people in

:33:48.:33:53.

UKIP as a party of racists? Do you agree that that has backfired? When

:33:54.:33:57.

there has been that scrutiny of UKIP, their poll ratings have gone

:33:58.:34:02.

up. As far as the comments made by the UKIP Leticia and about --

:34:03.:34:09.

politician about Lenny Henry, they were racist. We should not hold back

:34:10.:34:13.

on that. I have never said Nigel Farage or UKIP are racist. Some of

:34:14.:34:19.

the concerns they are seeking to claim that it for our concerns the

:34:20.:34:23.

British public have. We have to highlight the consequences of their

:34:24.:34:26.

policies and remind the British public of what their policies are

:34:27.:34:31.

and recognise that there was a consequence of voting for a party

:34:32.:34:36.

like UKIP. Charles Moore, the cost of living narrative has had

:34:37.:34:40.

resonance. It has struck a chord, which is why Labour are continuing

:34:41.:34:44.

to promote it and probably will do into the next election, particularly

:34:45.:34:49.

that phrase, will you be better off in 2015 on election day than in

:34:50.:34:54.

2010. That is the beginning, but it is not enough. Labour is making a

:34:55.:35:02.

strategic error, the same error they made in the 1980s, which is simply

:35:03.:35:06.

to say how awful the other lot are, and identify certain groups that

:35:07.:35:11.

represent the awfulness, like greedy bankers and landlords. The voter has

:35:12.:35:18.

to decide, OK, that is bad, but how are you going to be better? Labour

:35:19.:35:24.

have got what the Blairites called a core vote strategy, which is a

:35:25.:35:28.

rotten idea. You have to reach out and develop, and Labour has not been

:35:29.:35:35.

able to discuss its past, and therefore it has not been able to

:35:36.:35:36.

project its future. Now is Britain

:35:37.:35:39.

a Christian country or not? Fewer than one in ten

:35:40.:35:42.

of us go to church, and recent research shows that most

:35:43.:35:44.

people are largely indifferent to However, David Cameron thinks

:35:45.:35:47.

Britain is - although his comments have got rather a lot

:35:48.:35:51.

of people hot under the collar. And we're joined now by

:35:52.:35:54.

Andrew Copson, Chief Executive I like to keep an eye on what is

:35:55.:36:03.

going on in Westminster, reading weighty tomes like a prospect

:36:04.:36:08.

magazine, even this rather nerdy offering from Brussels. Until this

:36:09.:36:12.

week, I have never read this, the Church Times. It has been in

:36:13.:36:18.

publication since 1863. There was an article here the other week from the

:36:19.:36:22.

prime minister which has got people thinking, David Cameron

:36:23.:36:25.

pontificating about the Church of England, its role in society. If you

:36:26.:36:30.

sleep in the garage, does that make you a car? Can you be a Christian

:36:31.:36:34.

without going to church? Does that wedding I went to about six months

:36:35.:36:39.

ago Count? And it is not just the prime minister who sparked this

:36:40.:36:45.

discussion. It is difficult to be a Christian today, isn't it? In Syria,

:36:46.:36:50.

for instance, Iraq, certainly Egypt, but also sometimes here in Hackney.

:36:51.:36:56.

Why is Islam so much more popular? This BBC sitcom has been exploring

:36:57.:36:59.

similar ground, but despite their often being more seats in church

:37:00.:37:06.

than bottoms on them, the CRV is the established Church of England. The

:37:07.:37:09.

Queen is head of state and supreme Governor of the Church of England.

:37:10.:37:13.

This is Lambeth palace, the home of the Archbishop of Canterbury, at

:37:14.:37:16.

least when he is not in Canterbury. You get the sense of the glue that

:37:17.:37:20.

binds the Church of England to Parliament and the state when you

:37:21.:37:23.

take a look across the River Thames and see a building that is rather

:37:24.:37:26.

familiar, the palace of Westminster, home to 26 Lord

:37:27.:37:32.

spiritual, as they are known, bishops who have a seat in the upper

:37:33.:37:36.

house. The Deputy Prime Minister Nick Legg, an atheist,

:37:37.:37:40.

house. The Deputy Prime Minister junking the connection between the

:37:41.:37:42.

church of England and the state. It has happened for the judge of Wales

:37:43.:37:45.

and the Church of Scotland yonks ago. Not easy, though, says this

:37:46.:37:51.

cues and politics watcher. The establishment is a particular

:37:52.:37:54.

example of the classic British fudge. It is where we come from

:37:55.:37:58.

historically and it goes very deep. We should not underestimate the

:37:59.:38:02.

constitutional complexity of unpacking it. That building behind

:38:03.:38:06.

the tree is Westminster Abbey, and the bloke I am talking to standing

:38:07.:38:11.

between it and Parliament is... Have a guess? I am the link between

:38:12.:38:16.

Parliament and the Church of England. It is a Crown appointment,

:38:17.:38:19.

so I am accountable neither to the Archbishop nor to the prime

:38:20.:38:25.

minister. I am accountable to the Crown. I see the chancellor to ask

:38:26.:38:31.

for more money for cathedrals and negotiate with ministers over the

:38:32.:38:34.

details of same-sex marriages are through to the details with

:38:35.:38:47.

ministers in DEFRA over the defecating habits of mammals. So,

:38:48.:38:51.

plenty to chew on. We are joined now by Andrew Cobbs

:38:52.:38:56.

on, the chief executive of the Humanist Association. Andrew, you

:38:57.:39:01.

wrote the letter responding to David Cameron's comments on Christianity,

:39:02.:39:04.

saying they would foster alienation. Why? The letter said

:39:05.:39:08.

that repeated claims that Britain is a Christian country ignored the fact

:39:09.:39:12.

that we are more complicated in terms of the diversity of beliefs

:39:13.:39:15.

and compensated in terms of the past as well and the influences that made

:39:16.:39:20.

us a country we are. Constant refrains about us being a Christian

:39:21.:39:27.

country would alienate some. I am British and my family have been

:39:28.:39:31.

British or hundreds of years, but I am not Christian and my are not.

:39:32.:39:36.

Constant characterisation of our country as Christian something we

:39:37.:39:41.

feel excluded from. It was the first time I heard David Cameron said it

:39:42.:39:48.

in such a public way. It would be -- do you agree that Britain Broadley

:39:49.:39:54.

is a Christian country? He has been saying it more recently in the --

:39:55.:39:59.

more frequently. It depends what you mean by Christian country. Everyone

:40:00.:40:04.

who says so probably means something different. It is a description of

:40:05.:40:08.

fact in terms of the established country, rather than saying

:40:09.:40:12.

everybody is Christian. The Church of England has an established

:40:13.:40:15.

church, but the church was disestablished in Ireland and Wales,

:40:16.:40:22.

so it is not even true in the narrow sense of Britain. It is true in

:40:23.:40:26.

England, but that is not saying much. If you bring it into politics,

:40:27.:40:30.

the risk is that you then bring religion into politics. But it is

:40:31.:40:35.

not bringing it into politics, because it is an important cultural

:40:36.:40:38.

fact which makes a great difference to our society. In many countries,

:40:39.:40:42.

it happens in the Muslim world today, religion causes people to

:40:43.:40:47.

kill one another. In England and Britain to a lesser extent, we have

:40:48.:40:51.

found a solution to this. We had a settlement, which meant that we

:40:52.:40:56.

brought peace between the warring sects to a much greater degree than

:40:57.:41:01.

most countries. This was an important political and cultural

:41:02.:41:04.

achievement. So far from being divisive, it is actually unifying.

:41:05.:41:09.

All the other denominations in this country are happy with the setup of

:41:10.:41:13.

the Church of England, because they see it as essentially good-natured

:41:14.:41:17.

and peaceful and representing the idea of faith in modern society. I

:41:18.:41:21.

think the British public respond well to that. Do they, or do they

:41:22.:41:26.

just thought of accepted in a benign way? There is a principle of the

:41:27.:41:30.

Netherlands and historical continuity, and it has to do with

:41:31.:41:35.

the monarchy. It is true to say that the British public is largely

:41:36.:41:38.

indifferent to the establishment, but they don't like the fruits of

:41:39.:41:43.

establishment. There is overwhelming public opposition when people are

:41:44.:41:46.

polled to say they do not want bishops in the House of Lords. They

:41:47.:41:50.

do not want to screw in a three faith -based admissions into state

:41:51.:41:54.

schools. They do not want religion coming into politics. So although

:41:55.:42:01.

people might be indifferent to the establishment, in policy terms, they

:42:02.:42:07.

are strongly opposed. Would you like to unpick the constitutional link?

:42:08.:42:12.

Yes. I think it is necessary if we are to move forward. Accepting that

:42:13.:42:17.

the Church of England as in times been a benign institution that has

:42:18.:42:20.

solved a lot of problems, now when we look forward, it is unsustainable

:42:21.:42:24.

to have as a national church and institution with fewer than 20% of

:42:25.:42:29.

people as its members. In a diverse country, we need a better secular

:42:30.:42:33.

sector. If you do that, as Shakespeare said, you will tune that

:42:34.:42:39.

string and there will be a massive battle between unbelievers,

:42:40.:42:41.

different faiths, Muslims, Christians, fundamentalists and so

:42:42.:42:48.

on. There would be a fight for control. It seems to me that the big

:42:49.:42:57.

worry about the established church is, if anything from a Christian

:42:58.:43:00.

band of you, because it is not very Christian. Whereas for the general

:43:01.:43:06.

purposes of wider society, it is a clear benefit. Andrew would be one

:43:07.:43:11.

of the first to suffer if we got rid of things, because then the battle

:43:12.:43:14.

would really start. I think it would be a good observation to have in a

:43:15.:43:22.

modern democracy. Just let me intrude. I wonder whether there is a

:43:23.:43:26.

contagion among strategists to turn to their politicians and say, let's

:43:27.:43:31.

do the Alastair Campbell thing and just not do God. I don't think

:43:32.:43:34.

politicians should do God, Bob but they should be the place of religion

:43:35.:43:38.

in British culture and that is what David Cameron was doing. He was not

:43:39.:43:42.

saying, I am better than you because I am a Christian. But one of the

:43:43.:43:46.

recent examples has been the furore over gay marriage. And he was trying

:43:47.:43:53.

to make up for that because he made such a mess of it. He was trying to

:43:54.:43:59.

get back in with the voters. Is that how you see it? Only do God when you

:44:00.:44:08.

need to do God. I think what he said was consistent with what he has said

:44:09.:44:12.

in the past. He was genuine, but wrong, I think. He was wrong in

:44:13.:44:17.

calling for religious organisations to play a larger part in public

:44:18.:44:21.

life. He was wrong in saying Britain is and should be a Christian country

:44:22.:44:28.

and should promote that fact. It is a difficult time of transition in

:44:29.:44:31.

this country in religion and belief terms. People are not Christian in

:44:32.:44:35.

the way they were. We have got other religions. It is not surprising that

:44:36.:44:39.

people cling to the past, just because people say in public, like

:44:40.:44:43.

the Muslim Council of Britain saying it is good that we are a Christian

:44:44.:44:49.

country, it does not mean they think that in private. They may just be

:44:50.:44:53.

sucking up to power. Do you agree that being Christian does not

:44:54.:44:57.

necessarily mean going to church? The numbers have been bundling and

:44:58.:45:01.

there would not be much statistical evidence to back that up. Sure. We

:45:02.:45:08.

have to think about what happens when all of this decline is. All of

:45:09.:45:12.

the instincts in the health service and childcare or education that come

:45:13.:45:16.

from Christianity would be rude, and it is a grim prospect. I am glad

:45:17.:45:21.

David Cameron is drawing attention to that. I don't think there is any

:45:22.:45:25.

link between orality and religion in this country. We would be fine.

:45:26.:45:29.

Does the British economy depend on it or not?

:45:30.:45:34.

Is it fundamentally flawed, and if it is, what can be done?

:45:35.:45:37.

In a moment we'll be talking to two economists,

:45:38.:45:44.

both of whom have written books about that very subject.

:45:45.:45:47.

Cut the umbilical cord that links the lawmakers and the people and you

:45:48.:46:00.

destroy the stability of this country. You are asking the British

:46:01.:46:07.

people now to make a terribly disruptive decision. We have not

:46:08.:46:18.

successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain

:46:19.:46:21.

only to see them reimpose at a European level. -- reimposed. I

:46:22.:46:29.

believe in Europe as a political project. I believe in Europe with a

:46:30.:46:34.

strong and caring social I mentioned. I would never accept a

:46:35.:46:39.

Europe that was simply an economic market. A real choice between

:46:40.:46:49.

leaving or being part of a new settlement in which Britain shakes

:46:50.:46:53.

and respect the rules of the European market but is protected by

:46:54.:46:58.

fair safeguards and free of the spurious regulation that damages

:46:59.:47:03.

Europe's competitiveness. In an uncertain world there is strength in

:47:04.:47:07.

numbers. That is why we remain in the European Union. Even if the

:47:08.:47:12.

common market may have given them a good idea 40 years ago,

:47:13.:47:13.

common market may have given them a good idea 40 years it is hopelessly

:47:14.:47:16.

out of the bed now. Useful debate, I hope.

:47:17.:47:25.

Let's talk to Roger Bootle. And I'm joined now by the economist,

:47:26.:47:34.

Roger Bootle, who has written the book, The Trouble With Europe,

:47:35.:47:38.

and by Phillipe Legrain, former economic advisor to the President

:47:39.:47:41.

of the European Commission. Why you think Europe is not working?

:47:42.:47:55.

I think it went wrong at the beginning. The pursuit of ever

:47:56.:47:58.

closer union. It is not what the people of this country wanted. It is

:47:59.:48:02.

not what a lot of people in Europe want. Throughout European history,

:48:03.:48:08.

our best times have actually been in the nation states of Europe have

:48:09.:48:11.

competed with one another. I don't think we have it in us to be part of

:48:12.:48:16.

some unified political or economic entity. I want to see some

:48:17.:48:20.

overarching European unit that would bring friendliness, secure trade,

:48:21.:48:26.

perhaps have a foreign or defence aspect, but that does not mean

:48:27.:48:29.

cobbling together these independent nations. Do you agree with that? Is

:48:30.:48:35.

it, as we have often heard, the architects at the beginning wanting

:48:36.:48:42.

something to work a certain way and work out the economic details later?

:48:43.:48:47.

Think the euro has been a huge success. Spreading peace, stability

:48:48.:48:53.

and prosperity around the poverty -- continent. At the same time, during

:48:54.:49:00.

the crisis government-owned institutions have made big mistakes.

:49:01.:49:04.

We are suffering the consequences. Europe needs to change. Isn't the

:49:05.:49:09.

economic success of those units more down to the states themselves than

:49:10.:49:16.

some European conglomerate? May be most people around this table are

:49:17.:49:19.

free traders. The common market is the freest trade you have in the

:49:20.:49:27.

world. People invest in this country in order to sell cars to the rest of

:49:28.:49:30.

Europe. The economic benefits are very clear. If we were out of that

:49:31.:49:38.

we would not have those benefits? Clearly, if you look at a global

:49:39.:49:42.

level, the movement towards free trade has stalled. We would be

:49:43.:49:48.

reduced to negotiating agreements bilaterally and on our Rome we would

:49:49.:49:58.

have much less clout than together. -- on our own. As part of the EU you

:49:59.:50:04.

can negotiate as equals. There was a slight shaking your head there! It

:50:05.:50:12.

was not slight! I do think the EU has contributed a lot. I do not hate

:50:13.:50:20.

everything to do with the EU. It is interesting though that the respect

:50:21.:50:25.

in which it has contributed a lot was not envisage that the start, and

:50:26.:50:29.

nothing to do whatsoever with what they were aiming for. That is as a

:50:30.:50:38.

receiving house for countries in the Eastern bloc. That is one thing. If

:50:39.:50:44.

we move to the other questions, we did not need that treatment, by the

:50:45.:50:49.

way. Moved to the question of prosperity. I will eat don't agree

:50:50.:50:56.

at all with what Philip has said. European countries has -- have been

:50:57.:51:00.

getting richer. So is everybody else around the world. The Norwegians,

:51:01.:51:04.

the Australians, the Indians, the Chinese. Britain joined the European

:51:05.:51:15.

Union because politicians felt the economy was failing outside the EU.

:51:16.:51:20.

In any case, I am sure you believe in free trade. If you do, it is

:51:21.:51:23.

rather perverse to downplay the benefits of the single market just

:51:24.:51:29.

because it is European. If you do not like Europe, be honest about it

:51:30.:51:31.

but don't try to justify a political view on economic grounds. The

:51:32.:51:40.

problem about the EU is that it continues to move, and it has done

:51:41.:51:43.

from the beginning, in a single direction. It is of ever closer

:51:44.:51:49.

union. This is unsustainable for the continent. It is very bad for

:51:50.:51:55.

British independence and freedom. The creation of the euro, which is

:51:56.:52:00.

by far the strongest version of that -- that idea, has been the most

:52:01.:52:06.

disastrous. It has created massive unemployment and poverty in southern

:52:07.:52:15.

Europe, and huge political tension. It is also bringing about exactly

:52:16.:52:33.

what it was supposed to avoid, the total economic dominance of Europe

:52:34.:52:45.

by Germany. When you look at that process, why should you have two

:52:46.:52:57.

accept everything on the menu? Two different types are emerging. The

:52:58.:53:10.

euro zone and the non-Eurozone. Something should be made out of that

:53:11.:53:16.

without sleep -- playing a very leading role in the non-Eurozone.

:53:17.:53:19.

Isn't the problem in saying that we're going to reform it is

:53:20.:53:21.

something that cannot be pulled off? And then you're left with an

:53:22.:53:22.

extreme. Out, with with the costs that would bring, or you are in with

:53:23.:53:25.

hoping that the same people involved before would somehow be able to

:53:26.:53:27.

bring about reforms? There are reforms that can be done, as long as

:53:28.:53:30.

they are not special treatment for one country. You can move forward

:53:31.:53:34.

with the single market in services. You can have decentralisation. Of

:53:35.:53:36.

course the European Union can change. Have those people who do one

:53:37.:53:38.

died been ambiguous about what it would cost? There have been umpteen

:53:39.:53:45.

attempts to look into this. They come up with wildly different

:53:46.:53:52.

numbers. I myself think it is so uncertain with regard to the

:53:53.:53:57.

important things, which are not to do with the budget. The really

:53:58.:54:00.

important thing I think is the extent of further regulation from

:54:01.:54:03.

Europe. The extent to which the European Union carries on doing what

:54:04.:54:08.

it has done so far, moving in one direction. So you don't sign up to a

:54:09.:54:12.

particular set of circumstances, you sign up to it process. What sort of

:54:13.:54:16.

trade relationships we could negotiate with Europe and the rest

:54:17.:54:20.

of the world. Which regulations would you first get rid of? When I

:54:21.:54:26.

hear people say they are suffering, which once? Social and employment

:54:27.:54:32.

legislation, for a start. It is not true to say that everything that is

:54:33.:54:37.

a problem in this country stems from the EU. A lot of the regulations are

:54:38.:54:43.

national regulations. It is a political fantasy to think that

:54:44.:54:45.

Britain would be a different country had left. The demand for social

:54:46.:54:50.

employment legislation comes just as much from voters in this country as

:54:51.:54:55.

it does from the EU. Yes, but you can get rid of the people who impose

:54:56.:54:57.

it. . Now it's May Day today, which means

:54:58.:55:01.

people up and down the country will Old customs don't die, they just

:55:02.:55:05.

fade away. I'm joined now by Oliver New from

:55:06.:55:44.

left unity, organising a May Day march through central London, and by

:55:45.:55:47.

Sir Bob Russell, a Liberal Democrat MP. He thinks St George's Day should

:55:48.:55:53.

be a national holiday. Oliver, people think of May Day and they

:55:54.:55:58.

think of maypoles and flowers. Have people forgotten the origins? I

:55:59.:56:01.

don't think people do think about that. May Day is International

:56:02.:56:09.

workers Day. Happy May Day. Left unity, a brand-new political party,

:56:10.:56:13.

did not organise the march through London. It is organised every year.

:56:14.:56:17.

It has been celebrated for 150 years. If you cross the Channel, it

:56:18.:56:25.

is a public holiday in France. And it is a public holiday in 80

:56:26.:56:29.

countries, celebrating workers and their contribution. I think it is a

:56:30.:56:33.

really important day and we should do more to celebrate it. Do you

:56:34.:56:38.

think people remember it is a Labor Day? I agree with much of what has

:56:39.:56:45.

been set. It is a European is not a worldwide day of celebration for

:56:46.:56:49.

workers. In fact, I remember when the May Day bank holiday was brought

:56:50.:56:55.

in, albeit on a Monday. I want to reassert Englishness with St

:56:56.:57:01.

George's Day. I think St George's Day should be, if not the day

:57:02.:57:05.

itself, then certainly been a wrist Monday, should be a bank holiday.

:57:06.:57:10.

Had there are too many bank holidays within may? Across the year, the

:57:11.:57:16.

United Kingdom has fewer public holidays than virtually any other

:57:17.:57:19.

country in Europe. We would be catching up if we had an additional

:57:20.:57:23.

one friend lent. Does it matter what the origins are? Don't people just

:57:24.:57:34.

think, I've got a day off work? ! Some people think that. The amount

:57:35.:57:37.

of stress there is in workplaces at the moment, partly because of the

:57:38.:57:42.

economic crisis, the amount of stress is enormous. I think next

:57:43.:57:47.

couple of days would probably be good for productivity as well as for

:57:48.:57:50.

all of us. Charles, what about a bank holiday and October? With the

:57:51.:57:57.

workers Day, it seems to be inappropriate. It seems to me we

:57:58.:58:01.

should all be working! I think bank holidays are out of date. They are

:58:02.:58:06.

so inflexible. I agree with what Oliver has said about the stresses

:58:07.:58:11.

of work. This seems to be massive stresses with bank holidays to do

:58:12.:58:15.

with traffic and so on. It would be better if people had transferable

:58:16.:58:19.

holidays that they would take. We don't all have to be doing something

:58:20.:58:24.

of the same time. You are not advocating for fewer holidays? ! It

:58:25.:58:34.

day when the whole country comes together is a day for celebration.

:58:35.:58:38.

May Day or St George's Day. Let the English have their own day of

:58:39.:58:42.

celebration. These chairs, everything here, was made by

:58:43.:58:46.

workers, not bankers, not politicians. Let's celebrate that on

:58:47.:58:56.

May Day. That is it. Thank you to all our guests. Buy buy. -- goodbye.

:58:57.:58:59.

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