Browse content similar to 01/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
in connection with one of the most notorious IRA murders. | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
in Antrim over the execution of Jean McConville, | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
a widowed mother of ten who was dragged from her home in 1972. | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
Labour bigwigs gather in London's East End for the launch | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
of their election campaign today, as the party declares war | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
I'm looking forward to the bank holiday weekend. | :01:05. | :01:20. | |
But others think we should ditch the so-called workers? day | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
And with us for the whole programme today is the journalist and author, | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
He's Margaret Thatcher's official biographer, for which he | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
Now first today, let?s turn our attention to Northern Ireland | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
The Sinn Fein leader spent the night being questioned by | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
police investigating the murder of Jean McConville over 40 years ago. | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
The widowed mother of ten was abducted and shot dead by the IRA | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
in 1972 after she was wrongly accused of being an informer. | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
Last night, Gerry Adams was detained after he voluntarily attended Antrim | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
We can speak now to our Ireland Correspondent, | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
Mark, Gerry Adams was arrested yesterday and the terrorism act of | :02:12. | :02:31. | |
2000. What happens now? Well, the detectives who are investigating the | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
murder of Jean McConville have 24 hours initially to talk to Mr Adams, | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
which would take us until eight o'clock tonight. If a superintendent | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
decides there are sufficient grounds for another 24 hours, that is all | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
they need, the word of the superintendent, to hold him for 48 | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
hours. After that, if they need a further extension, they would have | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
to go to a judge to apply for that and they would have to be in | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
agreement about the number of days or hours he could be held. | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
Potentially, the terrorism act allows for people to be held up to | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
28 days, but that is unusual and given the high-profile nature of it | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
Adams, they would have to have a very serious reason to think they | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
needed that kind of time. Our people shocked and surprised by the arrest? | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
I think the surprise is that he is an extremely high-profile figure, | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
the leader of the second largest party in Northern Ireland and the | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
party which is making increasing inroads south of the Irish border. | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
They are involved in a European election and are expected to top the | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
poll in Northern Ireland and potentially get three MEPs elected | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
south of the border. So there is the surprise. But anyone who has | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
followed the story of Jean McColgan knows that detectives have been | :03:45. | :03:46. | |
examining some tapes recorded by ex-IRA members, some of them dead, | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
in which they have said they have knowledge of this case. That has led | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
to the arrest of one veteran Republican who was active in Belfast | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
around that time. He is has been charged with aiding and abetting in | :04:10. | :04:10. | |
this murder, and there were reports that Gerry Adams was involved, | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
reports which he denies. As you say, he has always protested his | :04:13. | :04:13. | |
innocence over this. Sinn Fein are saying the timing of Gerry Adams' | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
arrest is politically motivated because of the elections around the | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
corner. Yes, the political argument is that Sinn Fein are pointing out | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
that about four weeks ago, after this other Irish republican was | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
arrested, Gerry Adams offered to talk to the police. They are saying, | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
why did the police not to take him up on his offer at that stage? | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
Detectives will no doubt say they needed to take their time to go | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
through the evidence and decide who they wanted to talk to. But Sinn | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
Fein said the timing is politically motivated because the election | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
campaign is at its height and Sinn Fein's opponents are saying Gerry | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Adams must not be above the law. The police must do their job. This | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
argument will play out in public later today, because we have a | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
meeting of the policing board whether most senior officers in the | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
PSNI will face questions in public, the politicians. You mentioned these | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
tapes that were recorded in Boston by an American university with | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
former paramilitary is. Does the investigation hinge on those tapes? | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
We don't know for sure whether there is any additional evidential trail | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
is that the police are following, but we do expect the tapes to | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
feature strongly. There will be a question mark as to whether they | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
will eventually be seen as being at miserable in terms of evidence. The | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
tapes were recorded for an academic project and were not meant to be | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
released until those who had given interviews did. We did get the | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
deaths of a couple of people, and those tapes then came into the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
public domain. We also have an American but case which ended up | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
with the PSNI being granted permission to seize other material | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
from that academic project. It is thought that that is one of the | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
other reasons why they are questioning either Bell about this. | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
But we believe Gerry Adams had no part in that project, so we don't | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
expect there to be any tapes involving him himself. So there will | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
be a question mark over whether tape-recorded conversations of | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
anybody talking about Gerry Adams will be considered admissible. A | :06:21. | :06:34. | |
former IRA commander accused Gerry Adams of Jean McConville's murder | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
before his death in 2008. Here is a recording of what he said. This | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
woman was taken away and executed. Jean McConville. There is only one | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
man who gave the order for that woman to be executed. That man is | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
now the head of Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams maintained his | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
innocence. This was him speaking before his arrest last night. I am | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
going voluntarily to talk to the PSNI, because there has been a | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
lengthy, malicious campaign against me. I will tell the PSNI that I am | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
innocent of any part in the abduction and killing of Jean | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
McConville. In an emotional interview to the Today programme | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
this morning, Jean McConville's son said he knew who murdered his | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
mother, but was unwilling to a unveiled that information. Let's | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
listen to what he had to say. If I told the police anything about it, | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
me or my family members would get shot by these people. Probably | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
thinks this has all gone away. It hasn't gone away. People get | :07:46. | :07:53. | |
targeted all the day. I am not saying by the IRA. But they would | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
class you as an informant and they would shoot you. | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
We're joined now from Belfast by Derek Henderson, | :08:04. | :08:05. | |
who was PA's Ireland Correspondent for over 30 years. | :08:06. | :08:07. | |
And in the studio, we have Naomi Long from the Alliance Party. | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
Your reaction firstly to the arrest of Gerry Adams? The important thing | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
to bear in mind is the feelings of the McConville family. We have to | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
remember that this is a very difficult day for them and | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
re-awakens the feelings they have about the disappearance of their | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
mother 40 years ago. If the police believe they have reason to question | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
Gerry Adams, it is important that they feel they can do that | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
regardless of the profile of the person, regardless of the political | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
position. It is important that we are treated equally under the law. | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
That is important for people to take away from this. It will clearly draw | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
attention because of his profile, but that should not preclude the | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
police following their investigations. Derek Henderson, | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
what is your reaction to the arrest of Gerry Adams? It does not come as | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
any great surprise. Those of us who have been following this case for | :09:05. | :09:06. | |
several years knew there was an inevitability about it. Gerry Adams | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
has consistently denied any involvement in this case. One man | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
has been charged with aiding and abetting in the murder of Jean | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
McColgan. -- Jean McConville. Gerry Adams has known for some time that | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
the police would eventually come knocking on his door. He agreed | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
through a solicitor to present himself to the police last night. It | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
was all well choreographed, well orchestrated by Sinn Fein. I | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
understand Mr Adams sought some sort of assurances that there would be no | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
publicity in advance of his arrest and the police did not release his | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
name, but it did not prevent him giving a pre-recorded interview. And | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
at the same time, Sinn Fein issued a statement where he categorically | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
denied any involvement in the murder. Did you know the McConville | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
family? I met them once or twice over the years. As you can imagine, | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
they have been living with this for over 40 years. It has had an awful | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
impact on them, especially when their mother was taken away and | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
interrogated, had her hands tied behind her back and then was shot in | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
the back of the head. The family were traumatised. They were split up | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
and taken into care. were traumatised. They were split up | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
and taken Are you surprised that now? I was shocked, listening to | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
Michael McConville said, I saw the faces of the men who took my mother | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
away, but I will still not say who they were. Well, up to a dozen | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
people, both men and women were involved in her abduction. It was | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
the early days of the troubles. It was chaotic on the streets of | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
Belfast. One can only begin to imagine what it must have been like | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
that night when this guy arrived at the house and took Jean McConville | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
away. It was an awful scene. What about now, Naomi Long? There is a | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
fear that clearly still exists in communities in Northern Ireland. Is | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
that a truer representation of how people feel in some parts of | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
Northern Ireland than the impression we get over here? It would be true | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
to say that there have been huge improvements in Northern Ireland, | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
that has not diminished the influence of paramilitary 's in | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
terms of the degree to which they can control and intimidate within | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
local communities. We saw that fear reflected in what Michael said, that | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
those who are dissident or have previously threatened his family may | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
do so again if they feel their current position was under threat | :11:44. | :11:45. | |
because of any statement he would make. People will be shocked by | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
that. Do you think that is just how it is? It is not shocking for those | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
of us who live in Northern Ireland with it daily. I regularly receive | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
complaints from my constituents about crimes committed by people who | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
they know, but they are afraid pass that information to the police | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
because of fear of retribution because those people may have | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
paramilitary contacts. That is clearly not acceptable. The police | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
try to provide opportunities for people to give information through | :12:16. | :12:17. | |
confidential telephone lines. That does not work in a case like this | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
where the information could clearly only come from the immediate family. | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
So I can understand how difficult it must be. We also have to be | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
compassionate. What an awful thing to know, that you hold the | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
information that could lead to the conviction of those who brutalised | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
your mother, and yet feel too frightened for your own family to | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
speak out about it. It is a testament to why we need to deal | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
with our past in Northern Ireland, because it casts a long shadow over | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
the present. We will come to that issue over whether they're still | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
need is to be delving into the past to move ahead, but do you think | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
justice will be done for the McConville family here? That remains | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
to be seen. Where the evidential trail leads, we are not clear. We | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
know it started with the tapes at Boston College. Is that enough to | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
establish a prima facie case against anybody? I don't know. We will have | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
to wait and see. As Mark Devenport went about early, Gerry Adams could | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
be released as early as eight o'clock tonight, or he could be held | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
for another 24 hours with a superintendent's extension. To go | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
beyond that, they have to go to the courts to hold him for 28 days. I | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
doubt that will happen. What about the future? You talked about the | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
fact that there has to be a raking over of the past to move forward. | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
How much further has Northern Ireland got to go? It is not about | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
raking over the past. The problem is that we have a piecemeal approach to | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
dealing with the past, tit-for-tat. People have no confidence that there | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
is equality under the law. For a stable future in Northern Ireland, | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
we need a comprehensive approach to the past. That was what we said | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
during the talks by Richard Haass earlier in the year. I believe we | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
cannot have a lasting peace unless it is built on the foundations of | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
the rule of law and justice. We have to put respect for families and | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
victims at the heart of what we do if we are to move forward in a way | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
that has integrity. Are you optimistic 's it is a difficult | :14:30. | :14:31. | |
point in Northern Ireland's history, but yes, I am optimistic | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
about the future. We have gone a long way since I was born in 1971. I | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
was one-year-old when Jean McConville was abducted. You are the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
future. Actually, there are people younger than me who I think are the | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
future, but I am in politics because I believe their future ought to be | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
better. What about young people in Northern Ireland? Is there a sense | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
among those younger than you who feel they would just like to move | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
on, which was why I mentioned the past? Do they think, we need to put | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
this behind us, or is there still a strong sense of a feeling for | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
justice amongst the youth? It varies. Around 80% of young people | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
recently felt they wanted to make a life for themselves outside of | :15:18. | :15:19. | |
Northern Ireland, but I don't think we can move forward without being | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
just over the past. This is their present, not their past. We need to | :15:25. | :15:34. | |
work to heal it. Sinn Fein has said this is politically motivated | :15:35. | :15:36. | |
because of the elections. What do you say? I don't agree with that. | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
Sinn Fein knew well live in advance this was going to happen. They knew | :15:45. | :15:58. | |
eventually Gerry Adams was going to be questioned. This is just part of | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
the process that is going to go on, and will continue, I would expect, | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
for several months. Charles Moore, one of the issues is economic | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
progress in Northern Ireland. Do you think that would be a momentous leap | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
forward if people felt better off across the board in Northern | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
Ireland, and then were not encouraged to engage in politically | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
motivated activities in the way they have been in the past? It always | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
helps. This does all have to be cleared up. Gerry Adams has been | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
privileged through this process. In a very bad way. One of the group of | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
people who were -- resent that are a lot of IRA people who fell out with | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
him. They think they went through this combat, as they see it, which I | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
would call murder, and he was with them. Then he comes out the other | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
side with all of the fruits and all of the benefits. He is an allegedly | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
respected figure. They do not like that. And they do not feel that is | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
fair. Ordinary decent people in Northern Ireland do not feel it is | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
fair because the friends of Jerry are important, that the authorities | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
do not go after him. We had that with the John Downey question about | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
the alleged Hyde Park bombing. Was there an amnesty laid out by the | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
last British government? Interestingly, Gerry Adams has been | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
hoisted by zone petard now. -- his own petard. He was not on the wanted | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
list. He did not provide for his own protection. A lot of his gang are | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
protected. It is interesting to see him caught on this one. Do you think | :17:43. | :17:50. | |
he has had preferential treatment? Part of the difficulty is that the | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
police have been trying to find evidence. It is fine to talk about | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
what everyone knows people have done. Ultimately you have two pass | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
an evidential threshold. While there may be rumours, they now have an | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
inquiry lead. They are following that. I don't think anybody, | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
regardless of their political position, ought to be above the law. | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
It is an important message at a critical time because of the | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
exposure of the on the run scheme, that people get that message very | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
clearly, that nobody should be above the law. It is an important message | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
to send to dissident republicans, who are currently engaged in | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
violence, and loyalists who are doing the same thing. Deric | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
Henderson, there was a discussion at the time we were talking about those | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
on the run. Was it a price worth paying in order to secure peace, as | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
some people have characterised it? You have to remember that when the | :18:52. | :19:00. | |
so called on the runs was an issue, they were not granted amnesty. Their | :19:01. | :19:11. | |
legal representatives sought assurances if they were wanted for | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
questioning. This is not an amnesty. Who knows what this might lead to in | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
the future? People who were granted permission to return to Northern | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Ireland, there is nothing to say at this stage they may not face charges | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
in the future. I do very much. -- thank you very | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
much. All week, we've been discussing the | :19:33. | :19:34. | |
upcoming elections later this month. Today it's the turn of the Labour | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
Party to launch their campaign. In a moment, | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
we'll be speaking to Sadiq Khan, the shadow justice secretary | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
but first, here's Giles with news Labour have announced policy details | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
for private landlords. This morning, | :19:46. | :19:56. | |
Ed Miliband said housing costs were "one of the biggest causes of the | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
cost of living crisis", and warned that increasing numbers of people | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
face "terrible insecurity" at the Here's how he wants to solve | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
the problem. In a bid to prevent people being | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
forced out of their homes by huge rent hikes, | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
landlords will be restricted to one rent review a year and required by | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
law to keep it below a set level. Details of how that ceiling would be | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
calculated are yet to be resolved, but it's thought that it could be | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
based on average rents Ed Miliband also wants to legislate | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
to ban the charges imposed on tenants when they sign | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
a rental agreement - these fees average around ?350 per person, | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
but can go up to as much as ?500. Tenants would get | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
a three-year deal as long as they paid the rent on time | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
and were not guilty of anti-social Landlords could only serve them with | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
two months' notice to leave with "good reason", such as rent arrears, | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
anti-social behaviour or breaches of The Adam Smith Institute says it is | :20:58. | :21:07. | |
one of the worst policy decisions We can speak to Sam Bowman, | :21:08. | :21:19. | |
who's research director there. You have said that only bombing | :21:20. | :21:30. | |
would be worse than rent control. Why do you say that? I | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
the socialist Swedish economist. It is one of the few issues that unites | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
left and right. is one of the few issues that unites | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
in economics. 95% of is one of the few issues that unites | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
think rent control is a bad idea. It amazes me that Labour is going | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
think rent control is a bad idea. It this road. The proposals they are | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
announcing and as bad as the controls we associate with absolute | :22:01. | :22:02. | |
destruction of cities. It is more like petty vandalism. There was a | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
destruction of cities. It is more study in the | :22:08. | :22:08. | |
destruction of cities. It is more controlled buildings were 7% worse | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
in terms of the comparable buildings that were not | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
controlled. Three years later, they comparable buildings that were not | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
were 13% worse. Rent controls like this have a bad | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
were 13% worse. Rent controls like quality of property. They do not | :22:24. | :22:23. | |
help renters either. quality of property. They do not | :22:24. | :22:38. | |
rent control? It is quality of property. They do not | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
problem. The only way this can help renters is if | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
problem. The only way this can help quickly. Landlords will price in the | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
expected rising rents. Renters do gain if rent increase faster than | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
people anticipate. They lose if rents fall or do not increase | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
quickly. It is potluck for renters. It ties renters into a location. | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
Because landlords have to increase rents significantly, people in | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
relatively low places, relatively cheaper places, are discouraged and | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
find it harder to move around. David Blanchflower, the Economist, has | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
done quite a lot of work on this. People find it harder to move around | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
25 jobs. I worry that this kind of proposal, even though it sounds | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
nice, will renters. And it will probably reduce supply and even | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
increase unemployment. Across the board we have to listen to | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
economists and look at the evidence. They give very much. | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
And we're joined from the Labour campaign launch in Redbridge | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
by Sadiq Khan. Is this another policy announcement by Labour to | :23:52. | :24:03. | |
intervene in the market where you think it has failed? Is an example | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
of us understanding the cost of living crisis people are facing and | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
having the solutions. Nine million people in this country rent from | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
private landlords. 2 million children live in private | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
accommodation. One of the big problems I see is that the | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
uncertainty, instability in relation to how long they have been in this | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
property. Also, no idea of how to plan because the landlord could | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
raise the rent overnight. What this is saying is you know in advance | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
what the rent will be. After six months, you can have up to three | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
years. You can properly plan. Your children are not plucked out of | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
their schools. You know what the rent will be over the next period. | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
There is the opportunity to review it upwards or downwards. It will be | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
up to a maximum of a ceiling, which means both sides know what the rent | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
will be. Had either any idea what that CAP should be? We are going to | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
work with industry to make sure we come up with a ceiling that works | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
for all parties. We have seen in Ireland where they introduced a | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
ceiling and long-term tenancy, more properties becoming available. An | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
increase. What we're going to do is, over the next period, not impose | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
what the rent should be, work the industry so that the tenant and | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
landlords in cases can agree the rent. And see the best way of going | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
forward. How will that change anything that exists at the moment? | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
Landlords can actually break their tenancy agreement at any point. | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
Refurbishing the property. If there is a breach of the tenancy | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
agreement. In other words, at any point, the landlords, under your | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
supposedly new rent controls, can actually just in the tenancy. There | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
will be no more security of tenure. No, that's wrong. The current | :26:08. | :26:18. | |
position is a landlord gives a tenant a tenancy of six months. It | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
can sometimes be 12 months. During that time, landlords can terminate | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
the agreement. At the end of that six months or 12 months, if the | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
landlord wants the tenants to carry on, can increase the rent. What we | :26:31. | :26:43. | |
are saying is during that three years, a landlord can kick you out | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
unless you have not paid your rent or there has been anti-social | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
behaviour. Let's say for example the landlord wants to move back into the | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
home for his family. Yes, all the exemptions I have just given you. | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
No. At the moment a landlord can get rid of you with no reason at all. | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
This is protection for the tenant. They will not be paying this | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
whopping upfront free -- fee to the letting agents. The most pressing | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
problem is housing supply and housing stock. How will this | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
increase housing supply? It will bring it down, want it? Back in | :27:23. | :27:32. | |
September, October, when Ed Miliband announced our plans to build 200,000 | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
houses a year by the end of the next Labour government, we also said we | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
would give the power to use it or lose it. To give planning | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
authorities the opportunity. We are increasing the supply side of | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
things. 200,000 houses a year and next Labour government. The | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
important announcement today is addressing the issue of the 9 | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
million people who rent from private landlords, concerned about the | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
length of their tenure, the amount of rent they pay and being ripped | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
off by letting agents. Charles Moore, is this a good idea, when | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
many people feel rents have spiralled out of control and tenants | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
do not have much power over rogue landlords? No,, the dearth of | :28:19. | :28:31. | |
supply. You quite rightly raise the fundamental issue behind all of | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
this. The shortage of housing stock. There were fewer than 150,000 houses | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
being built a year. Our population is growing in volume terms more than | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
it has ever grown in the whole of its history. We probably need about | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
300,000 houses. Labour-saving will address that problem. Yes, but they | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
are not going to do so radically. Labour seem to be in a better | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
position to do this than the Tories. They should abolish the green belt. | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
The green belt is a massive restriction on housing where it is | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
needed. More land in Surrey is given over to golf courses than houses. I | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
know the viewers in Surrey will be annoyed with me for saying that. But | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
it is a very important point. The next generation cannot get on the | :29:23. | :29:24. | |
housing ladder because of the cost of housing. This policy is damaging | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
that. They should be addressing the real issue. Lets just find out | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
briefly how popular this might be. To find out how popular this might | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
be we can speak now to Gideon Labour is sending a mixed message? | :29:38. | :29:49. | |
Labour is all ready doing well among renters. I don't think this policy | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
will harm them. Whether it will change anybody's mind about voting | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
for them, that is a different matter. There are many other things | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
people are concerned about. I know that Labour people are worried about | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
this. Their opponents are banking on that. How much of a problem is Ed | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
Miliband? It is certainly one of the things for Labour to be worried | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
about. Ed Miliband's ratings are not as high, for example, as David | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
Cameron's work or Tony Blair's word before they won elections. -- work. | :30:22. | :30:30. | |
They are still giving Labour lead in our most recent political monitor | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
earlier this month. Labour's lead was in line with its average over | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
the last year of about six points. Not quite as high as they were | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
getting just after the shambles in 2012. It is still enough to give | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
them a majority. Let's get reaction from Sadiq Khan. Let's talk about | :30:51. | :30:59. | |
the elections. Whether or not this policy on rent controls does | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
anything towards the elections, why is Labour not in the lead according | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
to the polls? Firstly, we have unveiled a cost of living contracts | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
which has ten points which will address the cost of living crisis | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
that people face. This policy announcement is one of the ten. In | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
relation to the elections of May the 22nd, not only do we have important | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
European elections, but we have council elections as well. In London | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
as well as around the country. People should member that distrust | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
across the board has never been greater. From a position where | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
Labour Party got the second worst results in history, Ed Miliband has | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
brought us back into the ballpark. People have asked us questions about | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
what we would do and we have a healthy lead. Over the next 22 days | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
in the context of European elections and the council elections, we have | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
to persuade the British public that we are the one-party that gets the | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
cost of living crisis, and we are the one party with the solutions. | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
The general election is for people to ask the question in May 2015, and | :32:14. | :32:21. | |
my better off than I was in May 2010 and will my children be better off | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
in the future with the Tory led government? Who has the vision for | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
our country? Who can address the challenges for today and tomorrow? | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
You yourself said in terms of the three main parties, you claim you | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
are the ones dealing with the cost of living crisis, the narrative that | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
Labour has been promoting. But why are UKIP topping the poll in the | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
European election? You are the opposition. You say you have a five | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
point lead ahead of the Tories. Why are you 11 points behind UKIP? We | :32:52. | :33:00. | |
have to accept that there is an anti-politics feeling. Whenever you | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
do a public platform on politics programme like Question Time Kaunda | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
nonpolitician gets the biggest round of applause. As politicians, we are | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
not appearing to connect the British public. I take on the chin the | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
criticism of us appearing to be not in touch with the British public. If | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
you are not one of the mainstream parties and you give the impression | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
of being anti-politics and not the establishment, the public wants to | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
punish the mainstream parties by voting for the nonmainstream | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
political party. I would say, look at UKIP's policies on the NHS or the | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
national minimum wage or other issues, and ask yourself the | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
question, before you protest by voting for UKIP, whether you really | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
want them winning. But was it a good strategy painting some people in | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
UKIP as a party of racists? Do you agree that that has backfired? When | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
there has been that scrutiny of UKIP, their poll ratings have gone | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
up. As far as the comments made by the UKIP Leticia and about -- | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
politician about Lenny Henry, they were racist. We should not hold back | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
on that. I have never said Nigel Farage or UKIP are racist. Some of | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
the concerns they are seeking to claim that it for our concerns the | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
British public have. We have to highlight the consequences of their | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
policies and remind the British public of what their policies are | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
and recognise that there was a consequence of voting for a party | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
like UKIP. Charles Moore, the cost of living narrative has had | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
resonance. It has struck a chord, which is why Labour are continuing | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
to promote it and probably will do into the next election, particularly | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
that phrase, will you be better off in 2015 on election day than in | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
2010. That is the beginning, but it is not enough. Labour is making a | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
strategic error, the same error they made in the 1980s, which is simply | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
to say how awful the other lot are, and identify certain groups that | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
represent the awfulness, like greedy bankers and landlords. The voter has | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
to decide, OK, that is bad, but how are you going to be better? Labour | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
have got what the Blairites called a core vote strategy, which is a | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
rotten idea. You have to reach out and develop, and Labour has not been | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
able to discuss its past, and therefore it has not been able to | :35:36. | :35:36. | |
project its future. Now is Britain | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
a Christian country or not? Fewer than one in ten | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
of us go to church, and recent research shows that most | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
people are largely indifferent to However, David Cameron thinks | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
Britain is - although his comments have got rather a lot | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
of people hot under the collar. And we're joined now by | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
Andrew Copson, Chief Executive I like to keep an eye on what is | :35:55. | :36:03. | |
going on in Westminster, reading weighty tomes like a prospect | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
magazine, even this rather nerdy offering from Brussels. Until this | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
week, I have never read this, the Church Times. It has been in | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
publication since 1863. There was an article here the other week from the | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
prime minister which has got people thinking, David Cameron | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
pontificating about the Church of England, its role in society. If you | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
sleep in the garage, does that make you a car? Can you be a Christian | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
without going to church? Does that wedding I went to about six months | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
ago Count? And it is not just the prime minister who sparked this | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
discussion. It is difficult to be a Christian today, isn't it? In Syria, | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
for instance, Iraq, certainly Egypt, but also sometimes here in Hackney. | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
Why is Islam so much more popular? This BBC sitcom has been exploring | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
similar ground, but despite their often being more seats in church | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
than bottoms on them, the CRV is the established Church of England. The | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
Queen is head of state and supreme Governor of the Church of England. | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
This is Lambeth palace, the home of the Archbishop of Canterbury, at | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
least when he is not in Canterbury. You get the sense of the glue that | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
binds the Church of England to Parliament and the state when you | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
take a look across the River Thames and see a building that is rather | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
familiar, the palace of Westminster, home to 26 Lord | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
spiritual, as they are known, bishops who have a seat in the upper | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
house. The Deputy Prime Minister Nick Legg, an atheist, | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
house. The Deputy Prime Minister junking the connection between the | :37:41. | :37:42. | |
church of England and the state. It has happened for the judge of Wales | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
and the Church of Scotland yonks ago. Not easy, though, says this | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
cues and politics watcher. The establishment is a particular | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
example of the classic British fudge. It is where we come from | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
historically and it goes very deep. We should not underestimate the | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
constitutional complexity of unpacking it. That building behind | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
the tree is Westminster Abbey, and the bloke I am talking to standing | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
between it and Parliament is... Have a guess? I am the link between | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
Parliament and the Church of England. It is a Crown appointment, | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
so I am accountable neither to the Archbishop nor to the prime | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
minister. I am accountable to the Crown. I see the chancellor to ask | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
for more money for cathedrals and negotiate with ministers over the | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
details of same-sex marriages are through to the details with | :38:35. | :38:47. | |
ministers in DEFRA over the defecating habits of mammals. So, | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
plenty to chew on. We are joined now by Andrew Cobbs | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
on, the chief executive of the Humanist Association. Andrew, you | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
wrote the letter responding to David Cameron's comments on Christianity, | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
saying they would foster alienation. Why? The letter said | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
that repeated claims that Britain is a Christian country ignored the fact | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
that we are more complicated in terms of the diversity of beliefs | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
and compensated in terms of the past as well and the influences that made | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
us a country we are. Constant refrains about us being a Christian | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
country would alienate some. I am British and my family have been | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
British or hundreds of years, but I am not Christian and my are not. | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
Constant characterisation of our country as Christian something we | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
feel excluded from. It was the first time I heard David Cameron said it | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
in such a public way. It would be -- do you agree that Britain Broadley | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
is a Christian country? He has been saying it more recently in the -- | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
more frequently. It depends what you mean by Christian country. Everyone | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
who says so probably means something different. It is a description of | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
fact in terms of the established country, rather than saying | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
everybody is Christian. The Church of England has an established | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
church, but the church was disestablished in Ireland and Wales, | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
so it is not even true in the narrow sense of Britain. It is true in | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
England, but that is not saying much. If you bring it into politics, | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
the risk is that you then bring religion into politics. But it is | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
not bringing it into politics, because it is an important cultural | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
fact which makes a great difference to our society. In many countries, | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
it happens in the Muslim world today, religion causes people to | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
kill one another. In England and Britain to a lesser extent, we have | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
found a solution to this. We had a settlement, which meant that we | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
brought peace between the warring sects to a much greater degree than | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
most countries. This was an important political and cultural | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
achievement. So far from being divisive, it is actually unifying. | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
All the other denominations in this country are happy with the setup of | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
the Church of England, because they see it as essentially good-natured | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
and peaceful and representing the idea of faith in modern society. I | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
think the British public respond well to that. Do they, or do they | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
just thought of accepted in a benign way? There is a principle of the | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
Netherlands and historical continuity, and it has to do with | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
the monarchy. It is true to say that the British public is largely | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
indifferent to the establishment, but they don't like the fruits of | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
establishment. There is overwhelming public opposition when people are | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
polled to say they do not want bishops in the House of Lords. They | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
do not want to screw in a three faith -based admissions into state | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
schools. They do not want religion coming into politics. So although | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
people might be indifferent to the establishment, in policy terms, they | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
are strongly opposed. Would you like to unpick the constitutional link? | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
Yes. I think it is necessary if we are to move forward. Accepting that | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
the Church of England as in times been a benign institution that has | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
solved a lot of problems, now when we look forward, it is unsustainable | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
to have as a national church and institution with fewer than 20% of | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
people as its members. In a diverse country, we need a better secular | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
sector. If you do that, as Shakespeare said, you will tune that | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
string and there will be a massive battle between unbelievers, | :42:40. | :42:41. | |
different faiths, Muslims, Christians, fundamentalists and so | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
on. There would be a fight for control. It seems to me that the big | :42:49. | :42:57. | |
worry about the established church is, if anything from a Christian | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
band of you, because it is not very Christian. Whereas for the general | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
purposes of wider society, it is a clear benefit. Andrew would be one | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
of the first to suffer if we got rid of things, because then the battle | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
would really start. I think it would be a good observation to have in a | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
modern democracy. Just let me intrude. I wonder whether there is a | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
contagion among strategists to turn to their politicians and say, let's | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
do the Alastair Campbell thing and just not do God. I don't think | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
politicians should do God, Bob but they should be the place of religion | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
in British culture and that is what David Cameron was doing. He was not | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
saying, I am better than you because I am a Christian. But one of the | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
recent examples has been the furore over gay marriage. And he was trying | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
to make up for that because he made such a mess of it. He was trying to | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
get back in with the voters. Is that how you see it? Only do God when you | :44:00. | :44:08. | |
need to do God. I think what he said was consistent with what he has said | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
in the past. He was genuine, but wrong, I think. He was wrong in | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
calling for religious organisations to play a larger part in public | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
life. He was wrong in saying Britain is and should be a Christian country | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
and should promote that fact. It is a difficult time of transition in | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
this country in religion and belief terms. People are not Christian in | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
the way they were. We have got other religions. It is not surprising that | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
people cling to the past, just because people say in public, like | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
the Muslim Council of Britain saying it is good that we are a Christian | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
country, it does not mean they think that in private. They may just be | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
sucking up to power. Do you agree that being Christian does not | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
necessarily mean going to church? The numbers have been bundling and | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
there would not be much statistical evidence to back that up. Sure. We | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
have to think about what happens when all of this decline is. All of | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
the instincts in the health service and childcare or education that come | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
from Christianity would be rude, and it is a grim prospect. I am glad | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
David Cameron is drawing attention to that. I don't think there is any | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
link between orality and religion in this country. We would be fine. | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
Does the British economy depend on it or not? | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
Is it fundamentally flawed, and if it is, what can be done? | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
In a moment we'll be talking to two economists, | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
both of whom have written books about that very subject. | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
Cut the umbilical cord that links the lawmakers and the people and you | :45:48. | :46:00. | |
destroy the stability of this country. You are asking the British | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
people now to make a terribly disruptive decision. We have not | :46:08. | :46:18. | |
successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
only to see them reimpose at a European level. -- reimposed. I | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
believe in Europe as a political project. I believe in Europe with a | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
strong and caring social I mentioned. I would never accept a | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
Europe that was simply an economic market. A real choice between | :46:40. | :46:49. | |
leaving or being part of a new settlement in which Britain shakes | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
and respect the rules of the European market but is protected by | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
fair safeguards and free of the spurious regulation that damages | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
Europe's competitiveness. In an uncertain world there is strength in | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
numbers. That is why we remain in the European Union. Even if the | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
common market may have given them a good idea 40 years ago, | :47:13. | :47:13. | |
common market may have given them a good idea 40 years it is hopelessly | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
out of the bed now. Useful debate, I hope. | :47:17. | :47:25. | |
Let's talk to Roger Bootle. And I'm joined now by the economist, | :47:26. | :47:34. | |
Roger Bootle, who has written the book, The Trouble With Europe, | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
and by Phillipe Legrain, former economic advisor to the President | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
of the European Commission. Why you think Europe is not working? | :47:42. | :47:55. | |
I think it went wrong at the beginning. The pursuit of ever | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
closer union. It is not what the people of this country wanted. It is | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
not what a lot of people in Europe want. Throughout European history, | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
our best times have actually been in the nation states of Europe have | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
competed with one another. I don't think we have it in us to be part of | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
some unified political or economic entity. I want to see some | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
overarching European unit that would bring friendliness, secure trade, | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
perhaps have a foreign or defence aspect, but that does not mean | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
cobbling together these independent nations. Do you agree with that? Is | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
it, as we have often heard, the architects at the beginning wanting | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
something to work a certain way and work out the economic details later? | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
Think the euro has been a huge success. Spreading peace, stability | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
and prosperity around the poverty -- continent. At the same time, during | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
the crisis government-owned institutions have made big mistakes. | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
We are suffering the consequences. Europe needs to change. Isn't the | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
economic success of those units more down to the states themselves than | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
some European conglomerate? May be most people around this table are | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
free traders. The common market is the freest trade you have in the | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
world. People invest in this country in order to sell cars to the rest of | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
Europe. The economic benefits are very clear. If we were out of that | :49:31. | :49:38. | |
we would not have those benefits? Clearly, if you look at a global | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
level, the movement towards free trade has stalled. We would be | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
reduced to negotiating agreements bilaterally and on our Rome we would | :49:49. | :49:58. | |
have much less clout than together. -- on our own. As part of the EU you | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
can negotiate as equals. There was a slight shaking your head there! It | :50:05. | :50:12. | |
was not slight! I do think the EU has contributed a lot. I do not hate | :50:13. | :50:20. | |
everything to do with the EU. It is interesting though that the respect | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
in which it has contributed a lot was not envisage that the start, and | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
nothing to do whatsoever with what they were aiming for. That is as a | :50:30. | :50:38. | |
receiving house for countries in the Eastern bloc. That is one thing. If | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
we move to the other questions, we did not need that treatment, by the | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
way. Moved to the question of prosperity. I will eat don't agree | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
at all with what Philip has said. European countries has -- have been | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
getting richer. So is everybody else around the world. The Norwegians, | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
the Australians, the Indians, the Chinese. Britain joined the European | :51:05. | :51:15. | |
Union because politicians felt the economy was failing outside the EU. | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
In any case, I am sure you believe in free trade. If you do, it is | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
rather perverse to downplay the benefits of the single market just | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
because it is European. If you do not like Europe, be honest about it | :51:30. | :51:31. | |
but don't try to justify a political view on economic grounds. The | :51:32. | :51:40. | |
problem about the EU is that it continues to move, and it has done | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
from the beginning, in a single direction. It is of ever closer | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
union. This is unsustainable for the continent. It is very bad for | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
British independence and freedom. The creation of the euro, which is | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
by far the strongest version of that -- that idea, has been the most | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
disastrous. It has created massive unemployment and poverty in southern | :52:07. | :52:15. | |
Europe, and huge political tension. It is also bringing about exactly | :52:16. | :52:33. | |
what it was supposed to avoid, the total economic dominance of Europe | :52:34. | :52:45. | |
by Germany. When you look at that process, why should you have two | :52:46. | :52:57. | |
accept everything on the menu? Two different types are emerging. The | :52:58. | :53:10. | |
euro zone and the non-Eurozone. Something should be made out of that | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
without sleep -- playing a very leading role in the non-Eurozone. | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
Isn't the problem in saying that we're going to reform it is | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
something that cannot be pulled off? And then you're left with an | :53:22. | :53:22. | |
extreme. Out, with with the costs that would bring, or you are in with | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
hoping that the same people involved before would somehow be able to | :53:26. | :53:27. | |
bring about reforms? There are reforms that can be done, as long as | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
they are not special treatment for one country. You can move forward | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
with the single market in services. You can have decentralisation. Of | :53:35. | :53:36. | |
course the European Union can change. Have those people who do one | :53:37. | :53:38. | |
died been ambiguous about what it would cost? There have been umpteen | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
attempts to look into this. They come up with wildly different | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
numbers. I myself think it is so uncertain with regard to the | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
important things, which are not to do with the budget. The really | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
important thing I think is the extent of further regulation from | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
Europe. The extent to which the European Union carries on doing what | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
it has done so far, moving in one direction. So you don't sign up to a | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
particular set of circumstances, you sign up to it process. What sort of | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
trade relationships we could negotiate with Europe and the rest | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
of the world. Which regulations would you first get rid of? When I | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
hear people say they are suffering, which once? Social and employment | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
legislation, for a start. It is not true to say that everything that is | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
a problem in this country stems from the EU. A lot of the regulations are | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
national regulations. It is a political fantasy to think that | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
Britain would be a different country had left. The demand for social | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
employment legislation comes just as much from voters in this country as | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
it does from the EU. Yes, but you can get rid of the people who impose | :54:56. | :54:57. | |
it. . Now it's May Day today, which means | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
people up and down the country will Old customs don't die, they just | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
fade away. I'm joined now by Oliver New from | :55:06. | :55:44. | |
left unity, organising a May Day march through central London, and by | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
Sir Bob Russell, a Liberal Democrat MP. He thinks St George's Day should | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
be a national holiday. Oliver, people think of May Day and they | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
think of maypoles and flowers. Have people forgotten the origins? I | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
don't think people do think about that. May Day is International | :56:02. | :56:09. | |
workers Day. Happy May Day. Left unity, a brand-new political party, | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
did not organise the march through London. It is organised every year. | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
It has been celebrated for 150 years. If you cross the Channel, it | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
is a public holiday in France. And it is a public holiday in 80 | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
countries, celebrating workers and their contribution. I think it is a | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
really important day and we should do more to celebrate it. Do you | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
think people remember it is a Labor Day? I agree with much of what has | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
been set. It is a European is not a worldwide day of celebration for | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
workers. In fact, I remember when the May Day bank holiday was brought | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
in, albeit on a Monday. I want to reassert Englishness with St | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
George's Day. I think St George's Day should be, if not the day | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
itself, then certainly been a wrist Monday, should be a bank holiday. | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
Had there are too many bank holidays within may? Across the year, the | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
United Kingdom has fewer public holidays than virtually any other | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
country in Europe. We would be catching up if we had an additional | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
one friend lent. Does it matter what the origins are? Don't people just | :57:24. | :57:34. | |
think, I've got a day off work? ! Some people think that. The amount | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
of stress there is in workplaces at the moment, partly because of the | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
economic crisis, the amount of stress is enormous. I think next | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
couple of days would probably be good for productivity as well as for | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
all of us. Charles, what about a bank holiday and October? With the | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
workers Day, it seems to be inappropriate. It seems to me we | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
should all be working! I think bank holidays are out of date. They are | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
so inflexible. I agree with what Oliver has said about the stresses | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
of work. This seems to be massive stresses with bank holidays to do | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
with traffic and so on. It would be better if people had transferable | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
holidays that they would take. We don't all have to be doing something | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
of the same time. You are not advocating for fewer holidays? ! It | :58:25. | :58:34. | |
day when the whole country comes together is a day for celebration. | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
May Day or St George's Day. Let the English have their own day of | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
celebration. These chairs, everything here, was made by | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
workers, not bankers, not politicians. Let's celebrate that on | :58:47. | :58:56. | |
May Day. That is it. Thank you to all our guests. Buy buy. -- goodbye. | :58:57. | :58:59. |