Browse content similar to 26/10/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
Chancellor George Osborne is said to be in listening mode, | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
but will that stop peers killing off his cuts to tax credits? | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
Members of the House of Lords are on their way back to Westminster | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
where later today they'll have to decide whether to derail the plans. | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
If they do, will it set them on constitutional collision course? | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
John Bercow is loved by some, loathed by others. | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
We know he likes to scold naughty ministers, but has he | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
The Calais migrant crisis has slipped out of the news | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
but hauliers say its threatening trade and their livelihoods. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
We'll be talking to one MP who's calling for action. | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
And it's been the stationery of choice at Parliament for centuries, | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
but campaigners want plans to use paper instead of vellum, that's made | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:26. | :01:37. | |
of the programme today, I'm joined by the Conservative MP Paul Scully | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
So, let's talk first today about the government's changes to | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
tax credits, which independent researcher say will cost three | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
Having spent weeks insisting that there will be no change to the | :01:50. | :01:57. | |
policy despite growing criticism from inside and outside the | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
Conservative Party, George Osborne is now said to be in listening mode. | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
But will that sway peers this afternoon as they vote on a series | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
of motions that could postpone or kill off the tax credit changes? | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
And if they do try to block the plans, will it lead to | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
Well, here's the minister Matt Hancock | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
These changes are important and are part of a broader package to make | :02:20. | :02:31. | |
sure that the country can live within its means and we move from a | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
low wage, high welfare, high tax economy to a higher pay, lower | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
welfare, lower tax society. We don't take money away from people and give | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
it back to them so much and benefits and we make sure that the country | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
can pay its way. This has been debated three times in the House of | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Commons and passed each time with a majority bigger than the government | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
majority. It would be unprecedented for the House of Lords to block a | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
motion like this that is so central to the budget of the country. | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
Well, let's find out more about this afternoon's vote from | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
our political correspondent Chris Mason who's out enjoying a mild | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
Lucky old shoe, Chris. Listening to Matt Hancock, this has been passed | :03:12. | :03:25. | |
in the Commons, but could it be defeated by the Lords? Yes, it | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
could, and that is why there is the drama around the proceedings today. | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
There is a sea of Westminster jargon to paddle through. Talk of statutory | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
instruments and kill motions. One of my bosses were saying that I should | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
be fined for using phrases like that, but you can forget those | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
terms, because it boils down to two things. One, the millions of people | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
who could be affected by the government's changes, and secondly, | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
the sense of drama around today's debate in the House of Lords. There | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
is always drama around tight, unpredictable votes, and | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
particularly in the Lords where, frankly, people are more | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
independently minded. There are crossbenchers and independent peers | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
who are not whipped. They are only their own bosses. There is a sense | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
of uncertainty about precisely what will happen as the series of motions | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
are put forward and we find out at around eight o'clock tonight what | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
will happen. What about this phrase that the Chancellor is in listening | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
mode? Is it meaningless? Or does it indicate a change in stance by | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
George Osborne? It's a corking phrase, because it creates an image | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
of him walking round the rest of the time with a pair of ear defenders | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
on. What does it mean speaking to people here? I think it is keen that | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
the Conservatives are keen to push out a message that they get the | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
scale of concern articulated about the changes, the scale on their own | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
benches in the Commons, the scale of concern amongst the press that are | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
normally supportive of the Conservative Party. Even like the | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
Spectator. They are entertaining the idea that they can do something to | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
mitigate the effect of these changes, possibly in the Autumn | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
Statement, the mini budget in a month's time. We do not have any | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
detail and there is no meat on the bones but that appears to be where | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
they are heading. At the same time, they are making a real noise about | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
what they see as the constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to throw | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
out something that has been back three times by the elected House of | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
Commons which adds to the sense of drama as we look ahead to the | :05:44. | :05:45. | |
debates this afternoon. Chris Mason, thank you. | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
So we're told that George Osborne is in listening mode, and there's been | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
speculation for weeks that he may do something in next month's Spending | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
Review and Autumn Statement to help those affected by the tax credit | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
changes, which are designed to save ?4.5 billion. | :05:57. | :05:58. | |
Well, to talk about what options he might have | :05:59. | :06:00. | |
we're joined by James Brown from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
Does he actually have, George Osborne, any wriggle room if he | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
wants to save ?4.5 billion? There are different things you can do to | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
save that amount of money. He could increase taxes on a different group | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
and reduce benefits on a different group or reduce departmental | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
spending by more. But if you are looking to take a similar amount of | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
money from a similar group of people, there are not many other | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
options you can look to. These tax credits are well targeted on a | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
particular group. What about the claims that the government and | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
ministers keep making that, overall, when you take in people coming out | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
of tax and increasing thresholds and wages going up, is it true to say | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
that most of these people affected by the tax credit system will be | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
better off? No, I don't think it's likely these people will be better | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
off overall. These are very big reductions in tax credit entitlement | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
is coming in next April, averaging around ?1100 per household. Only | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
about two fifths of these households contain somebody paid less than the | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
living wage, for example. For a lot of these people there won't be | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
anything else that is offsetting the reduction in tax credits. Paul | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Scully, there you have heard it from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
most people will not be better off, even when you take on other | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
factors. I disagree. They are wrong at the Institute for Fiscal Studies? | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
Over the parliament, people will be ?2400 per year better off. Is that | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
true? Going further forward it could be possible that further increases | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
in earnings might mean that by 2020 some people will be better off then | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
than they are currently. But not all? You can construct examples. | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
There are a lot of other things going on. Let's take your point that | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
some of them would be better off by 2020, we are in 2015 and the changes | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
coming next April, so those people will all, by your own calculations, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
be worse off for a period of time. There is no easy way of doing the | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
changes we have to do. We know we have to take ?12 billion out of the | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
welfare budget overall and this is an important cornerstone of it. | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
There are important and difficult decisions to be made, but what we | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
need to do is look at it as an overall package. We talked about the | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
end of the parliament, but we are also talking about the national | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
living wage coming in and we also have the increase in tax thresholds | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
as well, where you start paying tax. There are other changes to | :08:42. | :08:49. | |
childcare. You heard some of the tweaks and proposals the Chancellor | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
could take to further mitigate the changes. Would you like to see him | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
do that? I would like to continue to see him to listen. It will be for | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
him to then look at the specifics. I have heard from EIF S and from a | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
number of other different think tanks and economists and they are | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
coming up with different figures. It would be nice for him to come up | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
with different figures, go away and consider the things that the | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
organisations have said. So you would like to see tweaks to it? What | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
I don't want to see is the whole thing derailed by an unprecedented | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
move in the House of Lords this afternoon. That is crucial. We are | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
going to come onto that. In a sense, do you agree with reform to the tax | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
credit system? That it should be cut on principle anyway? I think it is | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
totally the wrong priority. They're all sorts of ways to make savings in | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
the welfare system. The money we spend on housing benefit is a huge | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
issue and we should bring it down. The money we spend on inheritance | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
tax. There are number of different ways that we put it forward to | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
change spending. These are people at the bottom trying to struggle to | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
make ends meet week by week, day by day, and these are the people the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
Tories said they were standing up for. They are totally at odds with | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
their policy and rhetoric and have got themselves in knots. I'm glad to | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
hear George Osborne is listening, but the wall of noise from the Sun | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
newspaper, the Tory backbenches is overwhelming and he has to change | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
his mind. How much has the tax credit builder gone up since it was | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
introduced? I think at the back end of 1997 we were spending 8 billion | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
per year -- the tax credit bill gone up. Currently it is about ?30 | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
billion. It goes to show how much this area of support for low-income | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
families through these tax credits has been increasing, particularly | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
during the last Labour period in government. These changes will only | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
slightly role that back, but even so, you still have a lot of people | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
losing out on quite a lot of money from the changes. Would you support | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
John McDonnell bringing in higher taxes, that is how he would go in on | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
covering the tax credit Bill? There are people better off to foot the | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
bill. We should look at inheritance tax. There is a whole raft of | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
measures. To hit those people who work in day in, day out, at the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
NHS, school assistance, these are the ones we are clobbering and it is | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
deeply unfair. When we took over the Coalition Government in 2010, nine | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
out of ten families were reliant on tax credits. How can it be that we | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
have created a system where people are paying tax then getting a pat on | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
the head and getting money back from the state? It's important in terms | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
of changing the economy from a low pay, high tax economy through to a | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
higher pay, low tax economy where people can keep more of their own | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
money. Do you think the tax credit system is wrong in principle? That | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
it is wrong to subsidise, if you like, some employers by paying | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
people through the tax credit system? So would you like to see a | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
dismantled altogether? By changing it, you do it gradually, but you get | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
a ripple effect. You have big employers like Asda, Tesco, the sort | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
of companies who are increasing their salaries now and not waiting | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
for the national living wage to come in next year. That will be a big | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
benefit to people, because at the end of the day has to be work and | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
getting into gainful employment that pays. Just finally, the government | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
talks about ?12 billion worth of cuts to the welfare bill. Where does | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
the rest of it come from? The other changes they are bringing in the | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
benefits are being frozen for the next four years which gives you | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
another four or ?5 billion. There are cuts to tax credits for new | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
claimants, so the two child limit introduced from April 20 17th. -- | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
April 2017. They also reducing social rents to reduce the housing | :13:09. | :13:09. | |
benefit bill. Thank you very much. So yesterday | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
the education secretary Nicky Morgan warned peers not to block tax credit | :13:13. | :13:13. | |
changes which have been agreed by MPs, warning the move would be | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
"constitutionally unprecedented". Well, the Liberal Democrats, | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
who have 111 peers, are trying to We're joined now by one of them, | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
Susan Kramer. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. | :13:23. | :13:37. | |
Your party has eight MPs, you spectacularly lost the general | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
election. Why do you think it is acceptable to block the legislation | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
of the party who has won a majority? We have a 2 house parliament and | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
there is a significant and important role for the House of Lords. In the | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
last Parliament, my party tried to change it to an elected house and | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
both Conservatives and Labour came back with a message that you can | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
carry out your responsibilities on an unelected basis. We are carrying | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
out our responsibilities. Our job is to view and scrutinise and revise | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
legislation, to challenge the government. But not to block it? | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
Where is your mandate to block legislation and actually tried to | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
kill it off altogether? You cannot amend, as you know, with statutory | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
instrument, so we are asked to approve or not approve. I recommend | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
that we do not approve this. We have 3 million people on tax credits you | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
are going to be just clobbered by this. You have heard the numbers. It | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
is very real. The mitigations, which are far from being complete, they | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
come in later. We have families who are going to have to look at feeding | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
the kids cereal for dinner, turning the heating. This is really serious | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
and we have to stand up those people. That is one of the jobs of | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
the House of Lords. Are doing our job. You say that, but you mentioned | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
that the Liberal Democrats fighting an unelected House of Lords for | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
years and now you are using the leave at your disposal to block the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
will of the elected government. There is a hypocrisy there, isn't | :15:06. | :15:06. | |
there? If the other parties refuse to | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
reform, we must work with what we have got, and what we have got is | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
what we are going to use. It is absolutely crucial that we do. This | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
is not a constitutional SU. The Conservatives have lost the issue on | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
tax credits, so they are fairly desperately trying to turn it into a | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
constitutional issue, because they think they can have a better | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
conversation there than they can when you actually talk about the | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
realities of the tax credit problem. This is a bill. If we can't act in | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
the House of Lords on bills that have some money consequences, there | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
would be almost nothing at all we could ever look at, we could ever | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
scrutinise, we could ever revise and we could ever challenge. It really | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
is important to recognise this is a welfare measure. If you take that as | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
a welfare measure, then it does give you some ground to oppose, but | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
opposing rather than blocking. You say the only option open to you is | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
to kill it off, this statutory instrument, but you could join with | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
Labour. They are working to delay and asking the government to review, | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
so there is an alternative. The fatal measure we have brought in is | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
much cleaner, simpler. It doesn't stop the government acting, it says | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
to the government you can't do exactly this, go away and think | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
about it, and it sounds like that is finally persuading this government | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
that has been refusing to even listen. I hope very much that it is | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
listening and thinking now it is facing this action in the House of | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
Lords. But it is a clean measure and then the government can go away, | :16:40. | :16:41. | |
think again and come back with something new. We are not partisan | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
on this. If that isn't sustained, as the cleanest way to do it, then we | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
will obviously support the Labour motion for delay. Susan Kramer, bear | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
with us, she has a point, this is a welfare measure, not a strictly | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
money measure, which is how the Conservatives are trying to justify | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
that the Lords should just accept it, or revise it, but basically | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
approve it. It is a welfare measure, it is affecting people on welfare, | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
and they then do have a right to kill it off. It is a money measure, | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
in that it is ?4.4 billion that is part of the money we are spending | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
more than we are bringing in as a country. Whilst we are trying to | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
change and reduce the deficit and ultimately reduce debt, these are | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
the sort of measures that we have got to bring in, financial measures, | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
we have got to bring into reverse this. Lord Butler himself, one of | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
the former cabinet secretary sits with Ernest Kramer in the House of | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
Lords, said this is an unprecedented measure. A financial instrument that | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
the Lords should not be rejecting in this way. They will argue that it | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
wasn't in your manifesto, and the government has made it very clear | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
that what was in the manifesto was a commitment to cut welfare by ?12 | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
billion. Do you regret now not stating before the election where it | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
might have come from, particularly since the Prime Minister indicated | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
it wouldn't be from tax credits? We have given a lot of discussion | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
throughout the election campaign on welfare reform, and we have had a | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
lot of time since the election to talk about this as well. There are a | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
number of instruments available to the House of Lords, of which the | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
bishops have come up with a motion of regret, I believe it is called. | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
There are plenty of other options available. However, I would like to | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
see this go through uninterrupted by the House of Lords, and then George | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
Osborne will discuss the fact that he is in listening mode, if you want | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
to make your case, continue making the case and then do it at that | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
point rather than overstepping the mark constitutionally. The other | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
thing, Susan Kramer, this is the third cut the tax credits over the | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
last five years. Not the first one. The other two came when your party | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
was in coalition. We did not hear any outrage from Lib Dem peers then. | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
We very much protected those who were among the most probable, that | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
was a very important role people played in the coalition. People have | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
been shocked, they didn't see this coming, this very big blow to people | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
who are the working poor, and that is because we protected them while | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
we had a say in government. They are being exposed now. It is crucial we | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
protect them in that is frankly a welfare measure, and we need to | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
stand up today and do that. I find that startling, I am glad the Lib | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
Dems have found their conscience after five years of nodding and | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
supporting through welfare cuts. I'm disappointed the Tories have tried | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
to rush this through, when we could have had it in primary legislation | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
and have a much better debate. I am glad this we have put down an | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
amendment to give George Osborne time again to listen to the very | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
strong views from his backbenchers, and across both houses, to say this | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
is not right. This is hitting the people who need our support the most | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
and we need to think again. John McDonnell said if there is a | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
reversal, a complete reversal, which is highly unlikely, by George | :19:58. | :19:59. | |
Osborne, then he promises him personally and publicly he would not | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
attack him for it. Really? Labour is never going to mention it again? We | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
will be delighted, because all I can think is the constituents back home | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
who will be decimated by this. I am quite happy to sit quietly if he | :20:17. | :20:18. | |
does that. Let's wait and see. The question for today is which | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
of these parliamentarians has turned down an invitation to appear | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
on this year's At the end of the show Anna and Paul | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
will give us the correct answer. You haven't been asked, then? | :20:31. | :20:51. | |
Definitely not. A sort of sigh of relief there. | :20:52. | :20:52. | |
So we know the vote on tax credits will be causing a stir today, but | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
there are plenty of other stories bubbling under here at Westminster. | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
In a moment, we'll speak to two journalists who | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
know how to add more froth to their stories than a barista | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
But first, let's take a look at some of the big events which will | :21:04. | :21:12. | |
be keeping MPs in the building behind them busy this week. | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
Today, MPs vote on the final version of the Finance Bill, which enshrines | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
into law the measures outlined in the 2015 summer budget. | :21:19. | :21:20. | |
On Tuesday, the Commons takes its final vote on the Welfare Reform | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
and Work Bill, which provides for significant changes to welfare | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
benefits, tax credits, and social housing levels - amounting to around | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
70% of the government's planned ?12 billion welfare cuts. | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
On Wednesday it's the latest edition of Prime Minister's Questions. | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
David Cameron's on a trip to Iceland that day, so squaring off | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
at the despatch boxes in their PMQs debuts will be Foreign Secretary | :21:46. | :21:47. | |
Philip Hammond and Shadow First Secretary of State Angela Eagle. | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
Later on Wednesday Labour are staging an opposition day debate | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
in the Commons to highlight controversy over planned changes to | :21:55. | :21:56. | |
On Thursday, we'll be talking about tax credits again, as MPs | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
debate a motion tabled by Labour's Frank Field- he's the chairman | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
of the Work and Pensions committee - calling on George Osborne to | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
And on Friday, the Scottish Labour Party meet in Perth | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
for the first day of their annual conference, with Jeremy Corbyn set | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
We're joined now by Lucy Fisher from the Times and Jim Waterson | :22:20. | :22:28. | |
Well, both of you, a busy week in Parliament, as it often is, but | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
let's talk about some other issues that have been discussed over the | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
weekend and will impact the week ahead. Looking at deselection. The | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
story over the weekend, reassurances from the Shadow Chancellor John | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
McDonnell and moderate MPs worried about deselection, left-wing | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
activists he says will not be able to force them out. Will that | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
reassure you enough? I don't think it will. Head of the PLP committee | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
gave a reassurance, John McDonnell, yesterday gave a reassurance, but it | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
is not really up to the central party if these spin off local | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
groups, local Labour parties have influxes of large number of members | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
who are very far left, then it is not really up to the Central command | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
to say what they cannot can't do when selection comes up. What about | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
Frank Field's intervention, Jim Watterson? He has borne such a move | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
would be met with a mass rebellion within the party, with MPs backing | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
their ousted colleagues in by-elections in defiance of party | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
rules. It all sounds like party discipline is crumbling here. If you | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
were threatened with being removed by your job from a few people who | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
had turned up late in the day, you might feel unhappy but that is what | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
MPs are having to deal with. If you have got these new members coming | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
in, then the membership is programming and the MPs for the hole | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
are not, then it is quite hard to replicate what is going on because | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
the membership really do want pro carbon candidates. We spoke to | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
Momentum, and what they have said as they are not going to back row | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
selections but if a candidate steps down, if an MP is going to move on, | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
they would expect to play an active role in choosing a new candidate | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
because they frankly make up the vast majority of the people who | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
would have a say in such matters now. Should moderate Labour MPs, | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
those who don't necessarily support Jeremy Corbyn, just fall into line | :24:26. | :24:33. | |
and support their party's selection? This is greatly exaggerated. My | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
membership has doubled in my constituency and I welcome that. I | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
have tried to meet and speak to as many of those members as possible | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
and the idea that they are all somehow slaves to Jeremy Corbyn and | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
can't bear the Labour Party as it is an throw out everything we stood | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
for, a lot of them have got involved for the first time because suddenly, | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
they had been Labour supporters and had Labour values for all of their | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
lives but now there was an opportunity to engage. So why are | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
they worried, Frank Field supporting up and saying he was support any of | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
his colleagues being ousted in this way, they are loaded is going on. | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
People need to calm down. We are way out of an election at the moment, we | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
have a job to represent our constituents and stand up to this | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
government. At the end of the day we have always been a broad church. My | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
plea is for respect on all sides of the parties. The tradition on the | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
right is just as valid as the tradition on the left, no 1's values | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
are any more holy than anyone else's in the party. We need to win | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
in 2020 because there is nothing you can do about tax credits or | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
steelwork shutting down if you are in opposition. Let's just continue | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
with this a little bit longer. Simon Danczuk, who would consume himself a | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
moderate, -- consider himself a moderate, perhaps on the right of | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
the Labour Party, has talked about himself being a stalking horse in | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
next May's elections, how likely do you think that will be? I think it | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
will be very unlikely. The problem is for those moderate MPs talking | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
about a possible coup, even now, before Christmas or after May, if | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
the local Welsh, Scottish elections have a poor result for Labour. I | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
can't really say anything to the fact that most should the party | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
backs Jeremy Corbyn. He does have this overwhelming mandate, so I | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
think it would be very unlikely that any Labour MPs would back Simon | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
Danczuk to make that move. Just finally on Chilcott, it has been | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
reported we will get the timings of that report at the end of the week. | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
Are you excited? Given that Chilcott was commissioned in 2009, there will | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
now be children in their second or 30 at school who were not even born | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
when it started. I will believe it when I see it, but we have already | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
had Tony Blair out doing his pre-briefing on this, and the one | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
thing I can be certain of is that almost no one will be happy with | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
what it concludes. Yes, you can almost rely on that, can't you? | :26:57. | :26:57. | |
Thank you to both of. Now, | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
who remembers the former Liberal He was once a regular | :27:01. | :27:01. | |
on our screens, but the party's former Treasury spokesman quit | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the Lib Dems back in 2014 after it emerged he had commissioned | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
polls suggesting the party would be He predicted it was heading for a | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
"disaster" unless it changed leader. But he didn't leave | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
off politics altogether. Before | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
the general election it was reported that he had donated ?600,000 to 30 | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Labour and 15 left-of-centre Lib Dem election candidates, | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
which he described as "doing his bit to save our country from a | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
Tory government cringing to Ukip". Well, the money didn't do the trick | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
for most of those candidates. Only six of the 45 made it | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
into the Commons. The peer has now announced he is | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
returning to the House of Lords as a non-affiliated peer, and he's | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
said he's coming back to campaign Welcome back. Long time no see. The | :27:44. | :27:58. | |
private polling commissioned by you saying the Lib Dems were walking to | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
electoral oblivion under Nick Clegg's leadership ten at the | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
correct, so do you feel vindicated? I told you so is never a good look, | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
and I must say the polls that I commissioned at that time did turn | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
out to be pretty well spot on. I see Anatoly from Redcar, the Paul Blair | :28:17. | :28:27. | |
said that Labour was going to win Turley. The polls are that Nick | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
Clegg was just going to lose, he only just one but only by squeezing | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
the Tory vote but that is all history now. I felt the evidence was | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
very strong that the Lib Dems would save more seats, get more votes and | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
do better if there had been a change of leader to Vince Cable, and I'm | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
sorry that the party did not take my view. I don't believe we would have | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
an overall Tory majority today, I don't think we could have done as | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
badly. The four polls in the seats that I commissioned got the results | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
almost dead on with Nick Clegg as the leader, and they showed that | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
under Vince Cable the Lib Dems would have done between five and 10% | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
better. So I think there is a good chance, Paul you are the MP for | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
Sutton and Cheam, you beat Paul Bairstow, there is a good chance | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
Paul Bairstow would be sitting here instead of you. We can't be sure. | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
But the results were disastrous and studied his history now. Do you | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
regret commissioning the research, because in the end you were accused | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
of an attempted coup and you had to resign from the party? I didn't have | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
to resign, didn't want to carry on if we were heading for disaster and | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
I felt I wanted a break anyway. No, I don't regret it at all, indeed | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Paul Bairstow was very nice to me on the Tubes the other day, I won't say | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
exactly what his head, but many Lib Dems probably regret that they did | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
not stand up more firmly. That is history. I am just coming back now, | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
I was closely involved in the first European referendum when it came in | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
in 1975, working for Rod Jenkins at the time, and for Rod Jenkins at the | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
time, and 40 referendum go the wrong way, so if I can help that I will. | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
On that line about a Progressive Alliance, what you wanted to create | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
when you gave the money to Labour candidates, Lib Dems and Caroline | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
Lucas, but only six of the 45 made it to the Commons, was it a waste of | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
money? I don't think it was, and I will | :30:22. | :30:30. | |
tell you why. We stopped Ukip winning, and I was especially keen | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
to stop them winning Boruc, which was their top target and I was | :30:36. | :30:43. | |
helping Polly Billington. -- Thurrock. I was helping out in | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
Thanet, the candour that there was a good third. If Labour had | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
collapsed, Nigel Farage might have collapsed. Although the result was | :30:53. | :30:54. | |
disappointing, it was important we stopped Ukip breaking through. Is | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
Tim Farren the man to revive the Lib Dems? I don't want to get into the | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
Lib Dems, I am nonparty. I am a social democrat and they are the | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
same views I have had for 30 or 40 years. Other parties do fluctuate a | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
lot. I wish Anna and the other Labour Party moderates well in | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
reclaiming the party from the far left, but when I was in labour for | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
15 years we spent a lot of time fighting people like Jeremy Corbyn | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
and John McDonnell, and I'm afraid they are not going to get elected | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
unless moderates reassert themselves, but it's a difficult | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
situation at the moment. I shall let Anna comeback in on that. I agree. I | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
am a moderate, no denying that. But we have been a broad church and | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
Jeremy won with an overwhelming mandate and he spoke to something | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
that people wanted. There are new people coming through. A lot of | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
people who were involved 30 years ago who may not for me put the | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
Labour Party values ahead of particularly strong views they have, | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
but the priority for me is making sure we look at what the British | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
public one. The last time I stood firm parliament was in 1983 after we | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
founded the SDP and Labour were standing as a broad church under | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
Michael foot and they were hammered, and I think that will happen again. | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
I wish you luck, and I hope you reassert yourself over the next few | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
years. You have come back to campaign on Europe in the | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
referendum. What about the tax credits row? It is rather critical | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
for peers like yourself, you are back in the Lords, nonparty. What | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
will you do? There are a lot of coincidences in life. I didn't know | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
the vote was coming up and I wanted to come back and take my seat before | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
the committee stage of the Europe bill. Now, as it happens, I've come | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
into the middle of this. I will be voting tonight and I will be voting | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
for the motion to kill or block the tax credits. I am voting for the | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
Liberal Democrats and the Labour one. There is a constitutional issue | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
here. I do find it awkward that the Lords have to take a view on this | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
because the Lords should have been reformed and elected long ago. In | :33:02. | :33:03. | |
the last Parliament we fought hard for it and there was a vote and then | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
the Conservatives bottled out. It is awkward. It is a tricky thing to | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
vote on. But I do think, particularly given the fact that the | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
constitutional doctrine, in a manifesto, is quite clearly taking | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
away money from working people was not in the Tory manifesto and it was | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
categorically denied by David Cameron so it's reasonable to ask | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
astute make the Commons think again. That is what I will ask for. | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
Are you still friends with Vince Cable? Very much so. He's coming for | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
supper and we are going skiing again. We have always been friends, | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
but there had to be a slight diplomatic cooling after what | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
happened with Nick Clegg. But we are very good friends and we always have | :33:49. | :33:49. | |
been. Thank you. Now, | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
he was re-elected to the big chair at the start of this Parliament, | :33:53. | :33:54. | |
but has something bitten Speaker He's never been shy of telling Mps | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
when he thinks they've stepped out of line in the Commons, but lately | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
he's also had a thing or two to say We asked Giles to find | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
out what was going on. He waited a long time for the | :34:06. | :34:18. | |
position to arrive but he has been in the chair a good while, and | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
though sometimes his wife has garnered the headlines more than | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
him, Speaker John Bercow is no shrinking violet. The Right | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
honourable gentleman has no business scurrying out of the chamber. | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
Order! The reaction of some MPs to that was best expressed like this. | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
What do you think of the show so far? Rubbish! Once a boy on | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
crackerjack, the shouting came from the audience, but now he's in charge | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
of running the Parliamentary show, he takes on all comers. The word | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
conman is frankly unparliamentary. Order! The Prime Minister is a man | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
of great versatility in the use of language, and it is a bit below the | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
level. Be quiet. If you can't be quiet, get out. You are adding | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
nothing is abstracting a lot. It is rude, stupid and pompous and it | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
needs to stop. What he should not do is fail to communicate with me in | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
advance, ignore the convention and greatly exceed his allotted time. It | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
is, I'm afraid, discourteous and incompetent and it must happen | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
again. There is a badge of honour and it is called BBB. We call it | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
bashed by Burke oh, and it became a badge of honour -- bashed by Bercow. | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
Sometimes you have a bad day and maybe in John's case, he's had a few | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
by the looks of it. They have a right to be deeply insulted but they | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
tend to be trivial figures and the capacity to take larger French is | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
often a sign of triviality. Can I say to the Prime Minister's PPS, his | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
role is to nod his head in the appropriate places, and to fetch and | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
carry notes. No noise required. But the speaker likes to make some | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
noise, even offering opinion on HS2. It is undesirable and an unnecessary | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
project. Or even human rights to the Chinese president. No country can | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
exist in isolation, from all matters, from international law to | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
individual liberty. For his supporters, being forthright is no | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
bar to delivery. He is one of the best speakers in modern times, in my | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
opinion, because he keeps it moving along and he holds the executive to | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
account and if there is a minister who has questions to answer, he will | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
be at the dispatch box answering them. The fact that he is a | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
naturally rude man doesn't matter. Well, we're joined now by | :37:00. | :37:00. | |
the journalist Bobby Friedman, he's are -- is he in a bad mood? He is | :37:01. | :37:11. | |
always in a bad mood, really. You can't charge him with | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
inconsistency, then. There has been a flare-up over the last few weeks | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
but you see these from time to time and he tends to get a bit spiffy | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
with people and he does have quite a temper. You see it coming out from | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
time to time, and you see it coming out with Tory MPs, maybe not a | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
surprise. But that is what you get with John Bercow. What is driving | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
that, if you yourself admit that it is directed at Tory MPs, rightly or | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
wrongly? Is it revenge? I think it is revenge and there is a real | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
personal hatred here. A lot of Tory MPs would say that John Bercow is | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
quite a good speaker. It is him personally do they do not like. It | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
is a mutual feeling. John Bercow and David Cameron do not like each other | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
at all. I cannot repeat some of the words used by either side to | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
describe each other on TV at this time of day. But that is the general | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
sense you get with that relationship, and it's not good. It | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
is, rather than him in the role, it is that personal amity. That does | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
seem to be displayed on occasion -- Eminem T. Do you think the | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
government will do anything about it. They tried at the end of the | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
last Parliamentary session and it rather backfired. It did backfire. | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
They got quite close. 200 MPs voted effectively to try and get rid of | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
John Bercow. It would have ended up with his removal, and that was the | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
plan. Not immediately, but what John Bercow has is that he's more | :38:49. | :38:50. | |
vulnerable all the time, because David Cameron would like to get rid | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
of him. Michael Gove would probably like to get rid of him. There is | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
this underlying current, especially in the Conservative Party, wanting | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
to unseat him. It didn't work before the election, but it was | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
interesting. Back in May, we went into an election that was very | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
uncertain and the fact the Conservative Party were prepared | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
spend the last day parliament trying to get rid of him when they had this | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
big campaign to fight shows the strength of feeling -- last day of | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
Parliament. I'm sure there will be times in the future when it is the | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
moment is right, they will try and do it. He is a Marmite character. | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
Like all loathe him? Life is too short to loathe people, but many | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
people in the Tory party think it is a badge of honour to be torn off a | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
strip by the speaker. I've been on his good side. I haven't seen that | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
Crackerjack footage before. It's a shame that the house does not sit on | :39:42. | :39:49. | |
Friday at 525. We heard in the film that he has been a very progressive | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
speaker and has encouraged members to stand up, get their questions in. | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
He has extended question Time on Wednesday to incorporate that. Has | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
he been a good thing? I'm a fan of his. He has made Parliament more | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
open and accessible for people. Getting schools and young people | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
involved in Parliament. He's also made it more family friendly in | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
terms of the working hours. I am a big fan. He is right to hold the | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
government to account. He has given us plenty of opportunities. I find | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
it frustrating as a new MP that it's a struggle to get your voice heard. | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
There are 650 bus and everyone is trying to battle to bring the voice | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
of their constituency to the chamber -- 650 of us. Would you be as big | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
fan if he'd talk to you the same way as savage -- Sajid Javid? That did | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
seem to overstep the mark in many people's mind. Maybe I am jaded on | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
this position because my own view and how he has letters down over the | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
steel issue. -- let us down. He is right to hold as academy has to be | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
firm sometimes. He is a good referee. Nobody necessarily likes | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
one. -- he is right to hold us to account. There will always be | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
different views on how you handle debates in the House of Commons. | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
What about his role in the recent visit of the President of China? | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
There were thinly veiled criticisms directed at the Chinese president, | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
rightly or wrongly. Is it the role of the speaker to do that? I'm not | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
sure it is. In the last few weeks we have seen a few steps from John | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
Bercow trying to move out of the impartiality. On schools funding, he | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
signed a letter. That was quite a substantial move. HS2, and we saw | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
the clip of him talking about it, and if you are the MP for | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
Buckinghamshire. I think that is understandable because it is a | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
constituency issue. On school funding, that is straying. But John | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
Bercow likes the rough-and-tumble politics and I think he has his | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
sights fixed, and he said he would stand down by 2019, and I'm not sure | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
if he will, but as we get towards their evil be like a US president in | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
the last few years -- as we get to wards there he will be like. Do you | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
think he has strayed too far, such as signing up with the Tory MPs for | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
rewriting the funding for schools? With the China situation he does | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
stray into causing a diplomatic incident every now and again. Is | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
that wrong? Possibly. I commend him for his work on human rights, as my | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
father was born in Burma, and he has a long history of fighting for human | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
rights over there. You can strayed, but the work he does the fact he | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
highlights so many issues is no thing. Thank you. | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
Now, hauliers have designated this as "National Lorry Week". | :42:47. | :42:48. | |
But they're warning that the escalating migrant crisis | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
in Calais is preventing the movement of goods, and threatening | :42:51. | :42:52. | |
There are now an estimated 7,000 migrants camped in Northern France, | :42:53. | :43:02. | |
and at least 16 have died in or near the Channel Tunnel since the | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
summer, as they become increasingly desperate to get into the UK. | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
The Road Haulage Association says the industry is suffering because | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
of intimidation of drivers and attacks on vehicles by migrants, | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
and says many smaller family-run firms could be put out of business. | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
Well, we can speak now to the Labour MP Rob Flello, he's chairman | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
of the all-party parliamentary group on freight transport. | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
Welcome to the Daily Politics. How would you describe the situation in | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
Calais? The situation in Calais is really desperate. If you're a | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
professional driver trying to get either into the UK or out of the UK, | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
you face intimidation and threats, people brandishing knives, damaging | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
your vehicle. Breaking into your vehicle. It's really serious at the | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
moment. It has been escalating and not getting better over recent weeks | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
and months. Are there enough measures that the government have | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
announced to protect lorry drivers with a secure waiting area? Will | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
that change the situation dramatically? Not at all. It is | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
farcical, unfortunately. There are supposedly secure waiting areas at | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
the moment and I was hearing from one man on Thursday night, at three | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
a.m., they were in a secure area, supposedly secure area. There were | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
no police to be seen or border Force agents, and there were hundreds and | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
hundreds of refugees threatening them with knives, breaking into | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
vehicles, stowing away, and every time that he and others tried to | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
raise this with the Calais port security or with the border Force | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
themselves, they were told it was either not in their jurisdiction | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
area or they could not help. There was no sign of any police. This is | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
happening night after night. No prospect of the situation improving | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
them, unless serious measures are taken. What do you propose the | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
government does? The government needs to stepping quickly and take | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
urgent action, because we cannot carry on like this but what? We need | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
to have more police presence but what we really need is places like | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
the jungle to have those applying for refugee status have their | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
applications processed more quickly, get that dealt with really quickly. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
Those who are entitled to refugee status should be granted asylum and | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
helped on, those who aren't should be taken back to the country they | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
are from and let's get rid of the jungle and resolve the problem once | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
and for all rather than play at it. That is what the government, both | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
British and French, are doing. Isn't that the problem, it needs | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
cooperation on both sides that has not been in evidence over the last | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
few years? This problem has been going on for years, really. It's got | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
worse recently, and successive governments have turned a blind eye | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
to it. Is there now a feeling that the camps will be the jungle and | :45:50. | :45:51. | |
will be there permanently? The jungle and other camps cannot be | :45:52. | :46:01. | |
there permanently. We have something like 2.3 million tracks going out of | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
the port of Dover and Eurotunnel, about 90% of UK imports and exports | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
going through. That will increase as we run up to Christmas, and at the | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
same time refugees will become more and more desperate as their living | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
conditions deteriorate and they're desperate to get into the UK. It has | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
certainly been escalating over recent years. It has got far worse | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
over recent months, and if action is not taken, for example the 13 tragic | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
deaths of migrants in the tunnel will just get worse and the knock-on | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
effect not just of their families but of the drivers of those trains, | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
the situation with Hoey was being threatened will get worse, and a lot | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
of drivers are simple as saying we have had enough, we can't take this | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
level of threat and an timid Asian -- intimidation. They will have a | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
real impact. Over ?1 billion already, the impact on the UK | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
economy. Do you accept that a fuel of the rulers are in league with | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
some of these people smugglers? There are fines but probably not | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
enough to counter it. There are fines, but I am sure there will be a | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
very tiny number of hauliers that are in cahoots with smugglers, but | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
actually the vast majority don't want to believe curling up on the | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
rain -- on the road because someone has lit a fire or worse still is | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
lying on the road and while they are distracted like that, the locks are | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
broken on the back of the vehicle and people are getting on board, and | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
drivers are having to take the law into their own hands and gather | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
together to try and, in groups, get people who are smuggled onto the | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
back of their vehicles out. Again, going back to the situation on | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
Thursday night, where driver after driver was working together to | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
off-load people in the back of their vehicles, and some of whom were | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
brandishing knives, that can't happen, that can't be allowed to | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
happen. Are ministers listening? I don't think they are, they are | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
paying lip service to this problem but hoping that the bad weather will | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
make the programme -- problem go away, but it won't, it will make it | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
worse, in terms of how more desperate the refugees will become. | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
Now, you might have thought the party | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
conference season had ended some time ago, but you'd be mistaken. | :48:13. | :48:14. | |
Over the weekend Plaid Cymru held their autumn meeting in Aberystwyth. | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
Here's their leader, Leanne Wood, making her pitch. | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
I ask people in all communities in this country, take another look at | :48:20. | :48:32. | |
Plaid Cymru. We have listened. We know you want a party that will lead | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
on those issues that matter most to you. Your family, your hospital, | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
your school, your workplace and your community. The party of Wales is far | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
more interested in people than in processors. We have the ideas, the | :48:47. | :48:55. | |
personnel and the vision to deliver. Leanne Wood joins us now from the | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
Welsh assembly in Cardiff. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. You were | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
fourth in Wales in terms of vote share in the May general elections, | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
you got a smaller share of the vote than Ukip. How do you explain that | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
result? Westminster elections have traditionally been more difficult | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
for Plaid Cymru than elections to a National Assembly and we have those | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
next May. I very much hope that our showing will be different next May. | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
In every election we have had to date, we have done better in | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
elections to our national institution, and what we have in | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
Wales is by next May, we will have had 17 years of a Labour government, | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
unbroken rule, and they have presided over decline in our | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
economy, and a pretty poor showing in terms of outcomes, in terms of | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
health and education, so it is time now for fresh thinking and a new | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
approach, and it is time for a Plaid Cymru government after next May. You | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
are criticising Labour and their mismanagement of things like public | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
services, but what makes you think that votes that may stray from | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
Labour will go to Plaid Cymru? They will go to the Tories and Ukip. | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
Well, we have to put the case to people and make sure they understand | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
that we have been working very hard in coming up with solutions to the | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
problem that people have identified in public services, but it is up to | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
us now to make sure that we inform people as to what it is that we want | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
to do, and that is why it one of my messages to the party faithful this | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
weekend in our conference in Aberystwyth was that we had to get | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
out there now and have as many conversations in as many streets and | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
communities as possible, up and down the country, before next May. There | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
is no subject for hard work. Victory will not land on our laps, but with | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
hard work we have got all the ingredients to make sure that our | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
election campaign is a success next May. They will have seen quite a lot | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
of Plaid Cymru in the run-up to the May general election too. I | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
understand you're not campaigning UK wide, but the pollsters not indicate | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
a surge for you then. You said your party is in the same place the SNP | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
were before their breakthrough in the 2007 elections, but at this | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
point before the 2007 elections the SNP were consistently polling at | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
around 30% of the vote and you are polling at 18%. You are really going | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
to have to do pound those streets. Yes, I accept we are not in exactly | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
the same position. Not close, really. The SNP's current success | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
started with forming a minority government back in 2007, and if we | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
want Wales to be in the same league as Scotland and have the same clout | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
as Scotland, then that is what we have to do here in Wales as well. | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
And coming yes, you are right, we are going to have to pound a lot of | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
streets and not a lot of doors, but we are in good shape and ready to do | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
that. And I have got an excellent team of candidates, a very strong | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
Shadow Cabinet, a very strong programme of government, and it is | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
up to us now to get out there and explain to people what that is all | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
about. One of your senior colleagues suggested you could win 20 seats in | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
the assembly elections. Is that realistic? Yes, it is, nothing is | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
impossible and nothing is inevitable about the election result either. | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
There are many people assuming that Labour have run things for 17 years | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
and so probably they will continue to do the same but there is nothing | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
inevitable about that and it is up to people in Wales to decide whether | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
or not they want to carry on with decline or whether they want a | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
government that has a positive programme to turn around our health | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
service, to train and recruit 1000 extra doctors, to provide social | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
care for people in their own homes, to restructure health and social | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
care so that we can provide better services to people and to turn | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
around our education system as well. That is the option people have. We | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
are offering that as an alternative. Democracy means it is up to people | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
to decide if they want to take that option or not. If you look at the | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
polls, and you talk about labour not being in a good position, but they | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
are much healthier in Wales than they were in Scotland before the SNP | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
have their surge. Do you accept that? Yes, they are, and it is up to | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
us to point out where they failed, in terms of their record. Because | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
many people seem to believe that the health service for example is still | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
run by the Tories in Westminster. That isn't the case. So the failures | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
in our health service, the long waiting times, the inability for | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
people to access certain drugs and treatments, is down to the Labour | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
government here in Wales, and we need to make sure that everybody | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
understands that, and that they vote on that record, and that they fully | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
understand what that record is all about and who is responsible for | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
what. You talk a lot about the SNP and make comparisons, let's talk | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
about independence. According to ICM poll, less than 10% of people would | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
want Wales to be independent. Your party might want it but the people | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
of Wales evidently don't. I would accept that, but there is a greater | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
appetite, a majority appetite for strengthening the powers of this | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
institution, our National Assembly, and there is a growing demand for a | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
resolving of the constitutional anomalies that we have here, and | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
inequalities in terms of finance. While I am encouraged by that, and I | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
understand that the constitutional question is not at the top of | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
people's agenda, health and education and the economy, those are | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
the subjects that are much more likely to be people's priorities, | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
and that is why we are focusing on those ahead of next year's election. | :54:41. | :54:42. | |
Leanne Wood, thank you. Now, on what substance have Acts | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
of Parliament been formally printed The answer is vellum, which, | :54:46. | :54:47. | |
if you didn't know, is calfskin. As well as Acts of Parliament, | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
major documents from British history including the Magna Carta | :54:52. | :54:53. | |
and parts of the Domesday Book have But this centuries-long | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
tradition could be about to end. MPs are discussing whether to use | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
cheaper archival paper instead. The move would, they say, | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
save around EIGHTY THOUSAND pounds But not everyone is happy, | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
with some questioning the wisdom Well, joining us now to discuss this | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
is the calligrapher Patricia Lovett. Welcome to the programme. Why should | :55:13. | :55:27. | |
we continue the practice? There are three points I would like to make | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
about vellum, and then one about craft. The fact that you mentioned | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
we have the Domesday book and the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
this year is because it has been on vellum. If it had been on paper, | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
that would not be the case. Vellum lasts. It would not have survived. | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
We have books going back 2000 years, one of the earliest books, the Codex | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
I'm Atticus, written about 350 A.D.. It is on vellum and it lasts. This | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
is one of the key things about Dell. This is a skin on felon here. This | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
is -- a skin of vellum, the sort of thing I use as a calligrapher. This | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
isn't what they would use for printing on, in terms of it would be | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
cut into pieces. And so I get really quite fine lines on the work that I | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
do on vellum because this is one of the qualities that it has, and this | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
is using traditional skills of producing gold leaf on gesso. So | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
vellum lasts. This will outlast me and virtually every success that | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
comes after me. That is interesting, it would actually outlast any other | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
sort of material. It feels quite thick and not that pliable, but it | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
obviously is. It is absolutely fine. What our predecessors had done is | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
given as this legacy of being able to look at those roles that we have | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
seen, what we are giving for our successes is 250 years, even with | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
archival paper, and then reprint the whole lot. So that is the first | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
thing. The second thing is vellum doesn't need any special anything, | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
no special ink, no special printers, no special conditions. So can you | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
save money on that? Yes, because with paper you have to have | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
temperature and humidity controlled environment. You have to build that | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
environment, control that environment, monitor that | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
environment, have someone who looks at that environment. Patricia has | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
made a fairly impassioned argument, would you be backing the vellum? It | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
is interesting, because I know this was debated in 1999, and the same | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
arguments came out then and won the day. We always need to look at the | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
cost, but on the other hand there are some traditions and archival | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
reasons why. We would not have had documents like the Domesday book and | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
the Magna Carta. I am one over. There are some things that you just | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
can't replace. If we become so mean, and we are the sixth richest economy | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
in the world, I can't believe that we have to make sacrifices for | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
things like this as well in this age of austerity. Things like this are | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
part of our national heritage, history and hopefully our future. | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
You have convinced two MPs, you are obviously on your way, what is it | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
like writing on it? My third point, it is green, because it is a | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
by-product of the meat and dairy industry, no harsh chemicals, no | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
first cut down or anything like that and it is one of our heritage | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
crafts. William Cowie is the last vellum producer in the country, | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
producing a world-class British product. Good luck with your | :58:28. | :58:28. | |
campaign. There's just time before we go to | :58:29. | :58:29. | |
find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which of these | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
parliamentarians has turned down an invitation to appear on this year's | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here? I was disappointed. I am bad enough | :58:36. | :58:59. | |
if there is a spider in the house. Rather him than me. That is it, | :59:00. | :59:01. | |
goodbye. | :59:02. | :59:03. |