14/12/2015 Daily Politics


14/12/2015

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

David Cameron will deliver a four year ban on in-work

:00:41.:00:42.

Has the PM's EU renegotiation descended into pantomime?

:00:43.:00:53.

Former Guantanamo detainee Shaker Aamer alleges

:00:54.:00:55.

that he was beaten in the presence of British Security officials,

:00:56.:00:58.

but what was the evidence against him?

:00:59.:01:01.

And we get exclusive access to Margaret Thatcher's wardrobe

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Bling is the last word I would describe Mrs Thatcher as.

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And with us for the first half of the programme today

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is the Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan.

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Over the weekend the summit in Paris finally decided on an historic

:01:29.:01:36.

climate deal aimed at driving greenhouse gas emissions down

:01:37.:01:41.

and limiting global warming to "well below" 2C and possibly just 1.5C.

:01:42.:01:44.

If fulfilled, it would see 195 signatory countries weaning

:01:45.:01:50.

themselves off fossil fuels completely within just a few decades

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and switching to a mix of nuclear power and renewables.

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But some estimates put the cost of meeting these commitments at $1

:01:56.:01:58.

I think this is a huge step forward from the previous approach, which

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was to have global technocracy trying to enforce everything on

:02:18.:02:20.

member states. What they have done is got the individual nations to

:02:21.:02:24.

agree to want to do something, answerable to their electorate, not

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some global police, a better way to carry people to where you want to

:02:30.:02:33.

go. Is it achievable? To keep global warming below two Celsius, is it

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achievable? We don't know. It is a step in the right direction. A broad

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goal is good. The way they go about it, to say maybe things that would

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be expensive to do today but would be cheaper as the tech -- technology

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comes on stream, that is a sensible and practical approach.

:02:59.:03:03.

comes on stream, that is a sensible have said if we look at

:03:04.:03:07.

comes on stream, that is a sensible carbon reduction target, we could

:03:08.:03:08.

not have carbon reduction target, we could

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stations left? The UK was one of the few countries already meeting the

:03:16.:03:31.

coyotes -- Koyoto criteria. The issues are coming largely from

:03:32.:03:32.

developing countries and any issues are coming largely from

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that only involves Britain or Europe will miss the point because the

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emissions are coming from will miss the point because the

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industrialising countries. They will miss the point because the

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would need to make deeper cuts, though. They understandably have

:03:48.:03:51.

other priorities such as lifting hundreds of millions of people out

:03:52.:03:53.

of grinding poverty, which was why hundreds of millions of people out

:03:54.:03:56.

the deal was done to allow them, the basket of fractionally reducing

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climate change, to use the basket of fractionally reducing

:03:58.:04:06.

try to lift people to what we would the basket of fractionally reducing

:04:07.:04:09.

regard as a bare minimum of decent living and you do that through

:04:10.:04:14.

cheaper energy. Until people have electricity, running water,

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understandably, politicians in those electricity, running water,

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countries will say they have more immediate priorities. Unless they do

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enact changes, parts of the world will be less habitable and possibly

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lead to further waves of migration. People have this almost aggressive

:04:32.:04:32.

moral certainty about People have this almost aggressive

:04:33.:04:37.

not like the idea of weighing up priorities. They do not like

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allocating resources judiciously. When you look at the problems

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developing countries struggle with, elimination of disease, basic

:04:48.:04:48.

education for girls, you elimination of disease, basic

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understand there are more pressing things than just the issue of

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climate change. It is time for the quiz.

:04:57.:04:58.

Council employees in Bradford have been told they will not longer be

:04:59.:05:01.

allowed to make what on council premises?

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Later we'll give you the correct answer.

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David Cameron goes to Brussels later this week to meet other EU leaders.

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A crucial meeting as the Prime Minister tries to secure a new deal

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for the UK ahead of the referendum on the EU membership. What is he

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after? -- what is he after. years has been seen as the real

:05:31.:05:40.

demand of substance in the Prime Minister's

:05:41.:05:45.

renegotiation strategy - and a Conservative

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manifesto promise. But it was also a major sticking

:05:48.:05:48.

point for the rest of the EU. In a letter last week,

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EU Commission President Donald Tusk described it as delicate

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and Poland declared it Some Sunday papers appeared to have

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been briefed that the Prime Minister was now willing to compromise

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on the issue - for example, by requiring UK as well as EU

:06:01.:06:03.

citizens to pay National Insurance contributions for four years before

:06:04.:06:07.

they can claim in-work benefits. But last night a Downing Street

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spokesman briefed "the proposal that is on the table

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is the four-year benefit delay one. "That's the basis

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of our renegotiation. David Cameron is due to discuss

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the issue with other leaders But there has already been angry

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reaction from some Tory MPs, who remember the Prime Minister's

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speech in autumn 2014, which placed cutting EU migration

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at the centre of his strategy. EU migrants should have a job offer

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before they come here. UK taxpayers will not

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support them if they don't. And once they are in work,

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they won't get benefits or social housing from Britain

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unless they have been Yes, these are radical

:06:51.:06:52.

reforms, but they And the British people

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need to know that changes to welfare to cut EU

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migration, they will be an absolute requirement in the negotiations

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I am going to undertake. I'm confident they will

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reduce significantly EU migration to the UK

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and that is what I am We're joined now by our political

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correspondent, Alex Forsyth, How likely is it the UK will

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compromise? There is a school of thought that says it is a

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manufactured argument and the reason David Cameron faces opposition is so

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when he comes to Brussels to negotiate the final deal, he can go

:07:45.:07:48.

back to the UK and say it was tough, and what I have managed to achieve

:07:49.:07:54.

is worthwhile. I think on this point of welfare, there is genuine

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opposition. We have had countries such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia,

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saying they do not agree. What we are hearing from the government

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is... This morning, Philip Hammond was in Brussels and spoke to us on

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the way into a meeting of foreign affairs and esters. His language

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suggested it might be time for compromise. The four-year waiting

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time for access to benefits has been a consistent demand. We put that

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proposal on the table. We have heard a lot of partners in Europe have

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concerns about it. So far, we have not heard counterproposals, we have

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not heard alternative suggestions that will deliver the same effect in

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a different way. We have made clear if people have other ideas that will

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deliver on this important agenda for the British people we are prepared

:08:54.:08:56.

to listen and enter into dialogue about them. At the moment, the only

:08:57.:09:01.

proposition is our four-year proposal. He does talk about other

:09:02.:09:12.

ideas they would be open to listening to, what might they be? We

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had a suggestion by Boris Johnson who points to the Danish model where

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there are rules where before you buy a property you have to meet

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residency criteria. The problem with that is it may require change to

:09:27.:09:32.

domestic law and who is eligible for benefits in the UK. Another idea is

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an emergency brake, so if the UK could show public services are

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overwhelmed there might be a possibility to limit migration. But

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question marks about who would decide the criteria and how you

:09:46.:09:49.

activate it. Downing Street saying they are not formal proposals. The

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only one seriously considered is theirs on welfare and that is where

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the attention is focused. European leaders meeting later this week to

:10:00.:10:03.

discuss this, what I think is the bigger challenge is not just what

:10:04.:10:08.

David Cameron can get agreement on, but whatever he achieves, whether it

:10:09.:10:13.

will be enough to satisfy those who have concerns about the yuan the

:10:14.:10:17.

basis of immigration. Will the outcome make a difference in that

:10:18.:10:22.

referendum, of this negotiation? Apologies for some of the technical

:10:23.:10:26.

difficulties on sound. Occasionally we have these problems. We are

:10:27.:10:33.

joined by the Conservative MP. Has this turned into a meaningless

:10:34.:10:38.

exercise? There were four things the Prime Minister was asking for and

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this is the politically sensitive one. There are other important ones

:10:43.:10:48.

making sure that even though we are not in the eurozone, that we have a

:10:49.:10:52.

fair crack at the single market, protecting national parliaments, and

:10:53.:10:59.

Britain's adherence to ever closer union, those are important. It was a

:11:00.:11:05.

central part of the renegotiation and the redline seems to have been

:11:06.:11:09.

drawn by other EU leaders and now we hear it will do very little,

:11:10.:11:14.

according to the OBR, to cut levels of migration, which was the point of

:11:15.:11:19.

doing it. Part of the point. The other part is there is a strong

:11:20.:11:24.

feeling I share that people should not be able to come here and claim

:11:25.:11:29.

benefits from day one, or in particular, one that gets people,

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the idea of sending child benefit to children who have never set foot in

:11:35.:11:38.

this country. Those are the details at the heart of the negotiation. Do

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you accept it will not have a significant impact on migration? We

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don't know. You cannot be sure what mix of motives there are. But a

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requirement in renegotiation, and it does not look like he will deliver

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what was first anticipated. We cannot know that. That is why the

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Foreign Secretary is saying that if other people have ideas to help us

:12:06.:12:11.

do this, fine, but at the moment, the British Government's idea is the

:12:12.:12:17.

only one on the table. Damien is doing a brave job. Have you met

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anyone, is anyone watching, thinking, I am undecided but a

:12:23.:12:26.

four-year moratorium, on benefits, that is the clincher for me? Instead

:12:27.:12:33.

of asking for meaningful changes in the location of sovereignty they a

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list of demands -- have a list of demands of what he knows he can get

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so he can come back and declare victory. What is significant, if the

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EU is unable to make significant concessions now when its

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second-largest economy is about to have a referendum, what would it be

:12:56.:13:00.

like after we voted to stay in? Imagine with that permission, we

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would be ignored and taken for granted. Why is it the centrepiece

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of the negotiation? The only people you know care deeply about this

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politically are Tory MPs. You declared it the centrepiece will

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stop I think Downing Street made it the centrepiece and Philip Hammond

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and David Cameron are talking about it as if it is the be all and end

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all. Was it a tactical error to make it?

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Where I do not agree with him is he's says the renegotiation is a

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fraud. I do not think that is true. There is renegotiation. The fact

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that people have not said you can have it, shows that this means real

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reform will happen in Europe. Nothing the Prime Minister brought

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back would satisfy the hardline people... Hang on. David Owen set

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out a plan, a reasonable plan for staying in the market but opting out

:14:04.:14:08.

of the political ones. Someone who left the Labour Party because it was

:14:09.:14:13.

insufficiently pro-EU. I would have happily gone with that but for some

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reason the PM did not go for it. Why not? That is pulling out of the EU,

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creating something that would put at risk the single market and

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cooperation on security, the fact that Britain's voice in the world is

:14:29.:14:32.

louder because of membership. Putting that at risk will be at the

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heart of the referendum campaign. We are talking about political

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institutions. We are agreed that what ever the outcome, we will stay

:14:43.:14:48.

in the single market. It is not our single market. Not a single European

:14:49.:14:57.

country, in or outside the EU, faces tariffs when selling to the EU.

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These would have to tariffs when selling to the EU.

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true there is nothing that would keep Britain in the EU, that you

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would ever support, that is the case? That is not true. I have

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written articles saying that UK law, freedom to trade outside the EU,

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they are perfectly reasonable. It would mean us having to leave. We

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could have gone for those things in an amicable renegotiation.

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could have gone for those things in have been achievable. It will not

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happen because it is not on have been achievable. It will not

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agenda and the only way to get them is to vote to leave and strike a

:15:39.:15:42.

deal from the outside. When you know the British

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deal from the outside. When you know to recommend his deal, campaign to

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stay in, whatever, why make concessions? They will save

:15:49.:15:51.

He is worried about the result of leave.

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He is worried about the result of the referendum if he is talking

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about what happens after. Talking about Eurocrats as if there is a

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homogenous body democratic friendly countries all of

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whom have democratic friendly countries all of

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the world and all of whom for some peculiar reason wants to do Britain

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down. That is what is not true. That peculiar reason wants to do Britain

:16:17.:16:19.

are no Eurocrats who are a body peculiar reason wants to do Britain

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Germany to Scandinavia, all of whom who have one for you and what to do

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Britain down. I am not suggesting that might want to do Britain down.

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What Angela Merkel says is the same, we want to have a United States of

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Europe, we want more integration millet narrowly -- militarily and

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politically. We want market access. It is not going to happen through

:16:57.:17:02.

these talks. Moving away from the in work benefits, what else can really

:17:03.:17:06.

be achieved that is substantial that is going to make a difference to

:17:07.:17:13.

everyday people? Talking about retaining national sovereignty, not

:17:14.:17:17.

wanting ever closer union, these are words written down in documents,

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how's it going to be materially different to what we have now? What

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we have now is the best of all worlds. We are members of the single

:17:26.:17:32.

market but have control of borders. We do not belong to the euro. It

:17:33.:17:38.

clearly beneficial to Britain to have its own currency. We want to

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reform Europe so it gets better. That sounds very general. That will

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not mean anything to the person down the pub saying we are going to

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reform this institution to make it better. Better in what way? Better

:17:57.:18:05.

in terms of security. We live in an increasingly dangerous world. We

:18:06.:18:08.

have seen terrible events in Paris and who knows when they are going to

:18:09.:18:13.

happen in some other European country? It makes sense to have

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things like the European Arrest Warrant that allows us to chase

:18:18.:18:22.

people quickly across borders. It makes sense to sign up to

:18:23.:18:26.

co-operation measures that enable quick exchange of DNA information of

:18:27.:18:31.

convicted criminals and terrorists. That is the kind of thing the

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European Union gives us that makes the streets of Britain safer that

:18:36.:18:40.

would be put at risk. Do you believe legislating in the UK so that

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British as well as EU people must pay contributions is viable? That is

:18:51.:18:55.

the fallback position. They may get the deal. The reason we are not in

:18:56.:19:01.

the Europa is because Damien lost that argument and like so many of

:19:02.:19:07.

the people... We did not lose the argument. Let us not fight an

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argument that has been settled. They are using exactly the same scare

:19:15.:19:19.

tactics. They said if we did not join the single currency companies

:19:20.:19:23.

would relocate away from Britain. They were wrong then and are wrong

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now. What about in work benefits if you were to impose that on British

:19:29.:19:33.

workers for four years? Then it would be accepted. It would be

:19:34.:19:41.

accepted. Would you agree to that? I think the current proposal is a

:19:42.:19:45.

better one than that. It may be that somebody has a better idea to hit

:19:46.:19:49.

the underlying point about reducing migration. Nothing so far. Would you

:19:50.:19:56.

sign up to a deal if the compromises that British citizens will also be

:19:57.:20:01.

prevented from claiming in work benefits? It would depend,

:20:02.:20:06.

particularly with benefits you have to look at the detail. The broad

:20:07.:20:11.

brush approach does not work. There is a wider point that the benefits

:20:12.:20:16.

we get in people's daily lives in terms of jobs and prosperity are

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bought would be put at risk by pulling out of the European Union

:20:23.:20:26.

and that will be the actual heart of the referendum debate. The real risk

:20:27.:20:33.

would be voting to stay. This is an organisation that will not reform.

:20:34.:20:39.

If we stay we have the almost certainty of being dragged into

:20:40.:20:41.

deeper political and economic trouble. We will continue this

:20:42.:20:46.

conversation for many months, since we do not know when the data is

:20:47.:20:47.

going to be for this referendum. He spent 14 years in

:20:48.:20:55.

detention in Guantanamo Bay. Now, Saudi-born British resident

:20:56.:20:57.

Shaker Aamer has been speaking to the British media and alleging,

:20:58.:20:59.

among other things, that he was beaten in the presence

:21:00.:21:01.

of British intelligence officers. Let's hear a little of what he said

:21:02.:21:04.

when he spoke to the BBC's I have had my head boom,

:21:05.:21:07.

bang in the wall. And all the while I remember

:21:08.:21:12.

that my head is just keep banging the wall, back and forth,

:21:13.:21:15.

back and forth, back and forth. Are you adamant that there

:21:16.:21:18.

was an English officer, intelligence officer, agent,

:21:19.:21:22.

in that room when your head Because the way he spoke,

:21:23.:21:25.

the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting

:21:26.:21:37.

far away looking at me. And the day before I met someone

:21:38.:21:42.

who already told me I am I had no doubt from day

:21:43.:21:48.

one I would be out because I have no doubt that

:21:49.:21:57.

I did not do anything wrong Years after years after years,

:21:58.:22:00.

justice will prevail. It took 27 years for Nelson Mandela

:22:01.:22:08.

to get out and be the president It took me only 14 years to prove

:22:09.:22:12.

to the world that I am a good person Victoria Derbyshire talking

:22:13.:22:23.

to former Guantanamo detainee But not everyone is welcoming

:22:24.:22:27.

Mr Aamer back to the UK. Earlier I spoke to Hannah Stuart

:22:28.:22:30.

from the right-wing foreign affairs think tank the Henry

:22:31.:22:34.

Jackson Society. I started by asking her

:22:35.:22:35.

if she thought Shaker Aamer I am not sure necessarily that he

:22:36.:22:48.

now poses a threat to the United Kingdom but certainly when he was

:22:49.:22:51.

picked up the allegations were that he was fighting on behalf of Osama

:22:52.:22:56.

Bin Laden whose house he is believed to have been at. He was working for

:22:57.:23:01.

Islamic charities, he says. You might have been designated later as

:23:02.:23:07.

connected to Al-Qaeda. The Americans believed he was part of the Al-Qaeda

:23:08.:23:12.

network and was a threat not just to the UK but the wider western world.

:23:13.:23:19.

We had just been attacked in 9/11. He has denied that. He says proves

:23:20.:23:25.

that I was not working for a charity that was a genuine charity. Prove

:23:26.:23:29.

that I was associated with Osama bin Ladin and others who have turned out

:23:30.:23:42.

to be jihadi fighters. You, like the Americans, do not believe him. I am

:23:43.:23:46.

not prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that mainstream

:23:47.:23:50.

commentators do. It seems that because he has been a victim of

:23:51.:23:54.

human rights, and I am not disputing that, it is being said that

:23:55.:23:59.

everything that the Americans alleges not true but everything he

:24:00.:24:03.

alleges the Americans did to him is true and that is a double standard.

:24:04.:24:07.

Both of their behaviour should be under increased scrutiny. What

:24:08.:24:11.

concrete evidence other than claims and allegations from the US is there

:24:12.:24:18.

that Aamer was a terrorists and Al-Qaeda operative? There are a

:24:19.:24:23.

number of bits of evidence which come from documents, Gwent animal

:24:24.:24:30.

interrogations and interviews where he has confessed to a number of

:24:31.:24:33.

actions including Al-Qaeda leader training. He will say that is under

:24:34.:24:41.

duress as a result of torture. Some of those the Americans have said

:24:42.:24:55.

were tortured, but not him. Some people have alleged that Aamer was

:24:56.:24:59.

connected with Al-Qaeda operatives. He says that was under duress. We

:25:00.:25:11.

have here detailed claims by Shaker Aamer of torture over years. If that

:25:12.:25:16.

is true it is an abuse of his human rights and lets down the Western

:25:17.:25:22.

world. The treatment meted out to him does not white was the

:25:23.:25:29.

allegations and he chose to take his family to live under Taliban rule.

:25:30.:25:33.

That says a lot about the sort of society he would like to 11 and the

:25:34.:25:38.

charities he was connected to, those he willingly acknowledges he working

:25:39.:25:42.

for, our Al-Qaeda designated charities. If the evidence is there,

:25:43.:25:49.

why is he not facing trial? Britain has no legal case against Shaker

:25:50.:25:54.

Aamer. They have no jurisdiction over his actions in Afghanistan at

:25:55.:26:00.

that time. We have seen British fighters joining the conflict in

:26:01.:26:06.

Syria, an extension of jurisdiction. That is something that has been put

:26:07.:26:10.

in place in the last 18 months. It was not there then. It is right that

:26:11.:26:15.

the UK's legal system cannot be applied retrospectively so we do not

:26:16.:26:19.

have a legal case against Shaker Aamer. The US has established a

:26:20.:26:24.

system of military tribunal is which is supposed to address those issues

:26:25.:26:28.

and some people from Guantanamo were tried. Why was that not the case for

:26:29.:26:34.

Shaker Aamer? I believe the military tribunal is very complex and

:26:35.:26:38.

difficult and very few of the detainees have been put under

:26:39.:26:42.

military tribunal. Shaker Aamer was cleared a number of years ago, in

:26:43.:26:48.

2007, and released to Saudi Arabia. That is what the Americans wanted to

:26:49.:26:51.

do, to release him back to his country of birth. He chose to fight

:26:52.:26:57.

that. Some would say rightly or wrongly, because he wanted to come

:26:58.:27:02.

back to his family in the UK. If there is not enough evidence to

:27:03.:27:06.

convict somebody how can there be enough evidence to detain somebody

:27:07.:27:11.

without trial for so many years? I do not think that Guantanamo should

:27:12.:27:15.

exist or there is a case. I do not think people should be held without

:27:16.:27:19.

trial. That does not mean I think he is innocent. Is that not the crux of

:27:20.:27:25.

this case, that holding somebody for that length of time without a trial

:27:26.:27:29.

or without gathering of evidence that could be put on trial is always

:27:30.:27:36.

going to end up in either a miscarriage of justice or with

:27:37.:27:39.

complaints about alleged torture of false imprisonment? Yes. What

:27:40.:27:46.

distinguishes a functioning state from a gang of terrorists is the

:27:47.:27:49.

distinguishes a functioning state rule of law, due process and

:27:50.:27:49.

procedure where people are surly rule of law, due process and

:27:50.:27:55.

tried and you cannot keep somebody locked up without bringing charges

:27:56.:28:00.

against them. We established that in Magna Carta. That is

:28:01.:28:07.

against them. We established that in like Al-Qaeda. They would argue

:28:08.:28:10.

these are special circumstances, following the attacks in 2001, the

:28:11.:28:15.

national security in a way was more important for that period of

:28:16.:28:17.

national security in a way was more than the concerns that you have just

:28:18.:28:23.

outlined, and a lot of people will feel sympathy. That is the argument

:28:24.:28:27.

outlined, and a lot of people will always made. It is or was that of

:28:28.:28:27.

cases that make the bad law. People always made. It is or was that of

:28:28.:28:36.

we should suspend due process. I have no idea what this man was doing

:28:37.:28:41.

taking his family to Afghanistan. There are lots of things that no

:28:42.:28:44.

dodgy about this case but none of that is relevant if there was no

:28:45.:28:48.

evidence to bring against him in a due court. Thank you.

:28:49.:29:00.

On Wednesday, it's the last Prime Minister's Questions

:29:01.:29:03.

of the term and Jeremy Corbyn and David Cameron will be back

:29:04.:29:06.

Wednesday also sees the monthly unemployment figures published.

:29:07.:29:09.

Last month's figures showed that unemployment fell by just over

:29:10.:29:12.

100,000, with the unemployment rate at 5.3%.

:29:13.:29:16.

The BBC Director General, Lord Hall, is in front of the Culture Committee

:29:17.:29:19.

Will he also be asked about Tyson Fury being nominated

:29:20.:29:25.

Thursday and Friday sees the eagerly anticipated EU summit in Brussels.

:29:26.:29:31.

The Prime Minister has conceded that the meeting will not resolve

:29:32.:29:36.

Britain's EU renegotiation "in one go" and, consequently,

:29:37.:29:40.

he now does not expect to get agreement at the meeting.

:29:41.:29:44.

Unison elect a new leader on Thursday - Dave Prentis,

:29:45.:29:47.

the incumbent, will be standing for a third time,

:29:48.:29:50.

And the DUP announce their new leader after

:29:51.:29:54.

Northern Ireland Finance Minister Arlene Foster is the only candidate.

:29:55.:29:59.

The new leader will also become the new First Minister

:30:00.:30:01.

We're joined now by the Telegraph's Christopher Hope and The Times' Lucy

:30:02.:30:08.

Christmas cheer for David Cameron at the EU summit? He is going with not

:30:09.:30:24.

much in his Christmas sack this year. Trying to get a four-year ban

:30:25.:30:31.

for benefits on EU migrants going nowhere and Boris Johnson popping up

:30:32.:30:34.

with an idea about Denmark and how they can opt out to stop foreigners

:30:35.:30:38.

buying property there. It is not easy. Not the end of negotiations he

:30:39.:30:45.

wanted, it will drag to February which is not good news for him.

:30:46.:30:49.

Number 10 say they hold the line on the issue but we hear phrases about

:30:50.:30:55.

being open to other ideas, and other suggestions from EU leaders will be

:30:56.:31:00.

welcomed. Is it an admission of failure? It has been branded

:31:01.:31:06.

humiliating climb-down by David Cameron's critics. He is stressing

:31:07.:31:10.

flexibility. It is possible to see other options on the table that

:31:11.:31:15.

could address migrants coming to the UK and limit the attractiveness of

:31:16.:31:20.

the option, such as an emergency brake or changing domestic

:31:21.:31:25.

legislation. Their manifesto included a pledge to crack down on

:31:26.:31:31.

child benefit and tax credits for EU migrants. And levels of migration,

:31:32.:31:39.

which was slightly questioned by the OBR. Tory sceptics -- Eurosceptics

:31:40.:31:47.

will enjoy the discomfort of number 10. I think Daniel -- what he set

:31:48.:32:03.

out, and a big group that looks after the Tory Eurosceptics, he is

:32:04.:32:06.

saying to party members when you meet the MP over Christmas, get them

:32:07.:32:14.

to vote for Brexit. It is like a Tory version of Momentum. Jeremy

:32:15.:32:22.

Corbyn, coming up to his first 100 days as leader. Is his position now

:32:23.:32:28.

more secure than a month ago? I do. You hear members of his closest team

:32:29.:32:33.

talking about the fact most of the errors he has made, such as quoting,

:32:34.:32:41.

John McDonnell quoting Chairman Mao, are unforced errors from their own

:32:42.:32:46.

side. There is a degree of paranoia from his team but they are certain

:32:47.:32:50.

of the overwhelming support of the membership and they know for now he

:32:51.:32:56.

is saved, certainly until May, so they have time to get their people

:32:57.:33:01.

in positions of power in local parties. We will see selections for

:33:02.:33:10.

delegates and that will be a key moment, and party rule changes will

:33:11.:33:15.

shore up his position even further. Lucy talking about getting people

:33:16.:33:20.

into positions of influence to present the style of leadership in

:33:21.:33:24.

the Labour Party feeds into speculation about Shadow Cabinet

:33:25.:33:30.

reshuffle is. Is there anything concrete, the idea Ken Livingstone

:33:31.:33:36.

would be put in the House of Lords? That is where we are, the fact that

:33:37.:33:42.

Redken could emerge in red ermine in the House of Lords a player in

:33:43.:33:51.

national Labour politics. It is like 1981. Labour have to work out when

:33:52.:33:56.

they want to start governing again, rather than protesting. That is a

:33:57.:34:00.

question the Labour Party must think about over Christmas. I wish you a

:34:01.:34:01.

good festive season. We're joined now by the Labour MP

:34:02.:34:06.

and Shadow Women's Minister And Craig MacKinlay,

:34:07.:34:09.

who's been the MP for Thanet South since May, where he beat off

:34:10.:34:12.

a challenge from Ukip leader Let's just remind ourselves

:34:13.:34:15.

of that big election night Craig McKinley, the Conservative

:34:16.:34:18.

Party candidate, 18,848. Welcome to both of you and happy

:34:19.:34:58.

memories there, were you confident of winning? We were as time went on.

:34:59.:35:03.

We did a lot of canvassing and it was clear we would win, it was the

:35:04.:35:07.

margin, we knew it would be tight but we thought we would win. You

:35:08.:35:12.

would founder, deputy leader and leader of UK before defecting to the

:35:13.:35:16.

Conservatives, what was it like to defeat Nigel Farage? It was bizarre,

:35:17.:35:21.

why he bothered to stand against me, a strange choice. It was a shame

:35:22.:35:27.

from personal friendships we shared in the early days of Ukip that we

:35:28.:35:31.

were fighting each other but a handsome victory and he was rather

:35:32.:35:38.

silly. Cat Smith, Jeremy Corbyn, about two approaches 100 days. You

:35:39.:35:42.

worked in his office, did you imagine he would be leader? When I

:35:43.:35:47.

nominated Jeremy Corbyn for leader at the beginning of the process I

:35:48.:35:51.

was not confident we would get him on the ballot paper, so the idea of

:35:52.:35:56.

him becoming leader seemed far-away. What we have seen through the first

:35:57.:36:01.

100 days is he is in a stronger position now than he was. He won a

:36:02.:36:07.

huge mandate from the membership and we have seen that grow in terms of

:36:08.:36:10.

support with many more people saying to me, I did not support him but I

:36:11.:36:16.

see what he's doing, they really like what he is doing. How is that

:36:17.:36:22.

manifested in itself? He has a big mandate but there is a rift in the

:36:23.:36:26.

Parliamentary party, is he winning them over? I dispute there is a big

:36:27.:36:32.

rift in the Labour Parliamentary party, which has always had a

:36:33.:36:39.

diversity of views. If you look at the vote on Syria. The majority of

:36:40.:36:44.

party members, the Parliamentary Labour Party, MPs and Shadow Cabinet

:36:45.:36:50.

posts the intervention and if you said a week before the vote that

:36:51.:36:53.

would be the outcome I don't think anyone would believe it. Why did he

:36:54.:37:00.

win the vote -- whip the vote. I do not think we should whip the vote on

:37:01.:37:05.

matters of war and peace. I think in future we will have free votes on

:37:06.:37:09.

issues as serious as that because as an MP you have to listen to your

:37:10.:37:13.

conscience, as well as what the party whips tell you. How does it

:37:14.:37:18.

work when you have the Shadow Foreign Secretary with the

:37:19.:37:21.

government and against the party leader on a key issue Assyria? You

:37:22.:37:28.

saw how it worked. Some MPs decided to vote with Hilary Benn, a minority

:37:29.:37:34.

of MPs, and the majority were convinced by the arguments Jeremy

:37:35.:37:38.

Corbyn made to oppose action. It was not the right answer to the question

:37:39.:37:43.

posed. What about Ken Livingstone? Labour Party HQ said it was

:37:44.:37:49.

nonsense. It is nonsense. He will not be put into the House of Lords

:37:50.:37:53.

or Shadow Cabinet? I think Ken Livingstone did a great job as Mayor

:37:54.:37:58.

of London and is a good support to the party but I do not see him

:37:59.:38:03.

playing a big role in the future. Is he not very much part of Jeremy

:38:04.:38:08.

Corbyn's thinking in terms of new politics? There are a lot of other

:38:09.:38:13.

people. The House of Lords, if Labour put names forward to go into

:38:14.:38:17.

the House of Lords, I would like to imagine the names did not include a

:38:18.:38:21.

majority of older, white men. The Lords is dominated by them and I

:38:22.:38:30.

would like to see others to represent diversity in the House of

:38:31.:38:33.

Lords. Is that why you would not want to see Ken Livingstone as part

:38:34.:38:39.

of a Shadow Cabinet? I see the Labour Party being more diverse and

:38:40.:38:43.

representative. Jeremy set the example by having more women in the

:38:44.:38:47.

Shadow Cabinet for the first time, having a majority there. Jeremy's

:38:48.:38:52.

view will be a more diverse front bench team. How will he moulds the

:38:53.:38:58.

Shadow Cabinet more in his and John McDonnell's image? In that sense

:38:59.:39:02.

Shadow Cabinet more in his and John are having discussions as a

:39:03.:39:09.

Parliamentary Labour Party. I imagine the Shadow Cabinet have the

:39:10.:39:12.

Parliamentary Labour Party. Discussing ideas is important, to

:39:13.:39:19.

have an open debate. We have had that open debate and I am grateful

:39:20.:39:21.

for that. Now, should 16 and 17-year-olds be

:39:22.:39:25.

able to vote in the in-out Many peers in the House of Lords

:39:26.:39:28.

think so and they're likely to vote in favour of that again today

:39:29.:39:32.

in teeth of opposition from the government who say they're

:39:33.:39:35.

frustrating the will of elected MPs. What say you? I am not in favour. It

:39:36.:39:47.

is bizarre the unelected house, having a discussion of that place,

:39:48.:39:53.

is trying to influence the franchise for an election, it is a bizarre

:39:54.:39:59.

state of affairs. I don't agree 16 and 17-year-olds

:40:00.:40:02.

state of affairs. I don't agree 16 elections but if we want to change

:40:03.:40:04.

the franchise it should be elections but if we want to change

:40:05.:40:09.

debate for all elections, there should be a

:40:10.:40:11.

debate for all elections, there take an amount of time with a

:40:12.:40:14.

debate for all elections, there commission to decide yes it is a

:40:15.:40:19.

good or bad idea. We have the Scottish referendum. This would be

:40:20.:40:20.

another election and that is Scottish referendum. This would be

:40:21.:40:25.

start these things? Just because the Scots did it under devolved

:40:26.:40:27.

start these things? Just because the is a matter for them. You

:40:28.:40:30.

start these things? Just because the think it was a success? I don't

:40:31.:40:35.

think it is a good idea. Youngsters, we want them involved in the

:40:36.:40:41.

political process. 18 to 24-year-olds are the lowest turnout,

:40:42.:40:45.

I want to encourage it when they are 18 and onwards and I am not

:40:46.:40:48.

convinced those under 18... They 18 and onwards and I am not

:40:49.:40:53.

have not always joined the world of work. They are not into taxation,

:40:54.:40:59.

they cannot do many things. If there was a commission... I think this is

:41:00.:41:05.

the wrong approach. In order to encourage young people to engage in

:41:06.:41:09.

politics and debate arguments, we need them to be franchise to take

:41:10.:41:13.

part in votes. We saw in Scotland that those are 16 and 17 listen to

:41:14.:41:19.

the arguments and will probably vote that future elections. Evidence

:41:20.:41:23.

shows the more likely you are to vote when you have voted Young.

:41:24.:41:28.

I.e., the first time you have done it. You put your cross in the box

:41:29.:41:34.

once and can do it again. It is important the 16 and 17-year-olds

:41:35.:41:39.

today, who will live with the consequences of the referendum, have

:41:40.:41:45.

a stake in that. That is the point. Generally about the franchise, not

:41:46.:41:49.

just added on for one election. I would be happy to see the franchise

:41:50.:41:54.

extended for all elections. Let's have the debate. We have seen in

:41:55.:42:00.

Scotland that voting young people is a huge success. We have an

:42:01.:42:03.

opportunity to see if it is a success in the rest of the UK. Let's

:42:04.:42:08.

go on to the EU renegotiation, what you make of it? I think he could

:42:09.:42:15.

have gone with asking for more than the four baskets he has asked for

:42:16.:42:20.

and it seems one of the key points, the restriction of in work benefits

:42:21.:42:23.

seems to have been rebuffed by EU partners. They realise Britain is on

:42:24.:42:31.

the cusp of 50-50 Brexit, they must realise that and they must realise

:42:32.:42:37.

they need to give us a fair bit to that renegotiation that a lot of

:42:38.:42:42.

people want, or else there will be a Brexit. We are being intransigent

:42:43.:42:45.

and I am shocked by the approach taken. Which way would you vote? I

:42:46.:42:53.

am out. Out even if he secures renegotiation on the four baskets as

:42:54.:42:59.

you call it? He went for renegotiation, a fundamental

:43:00.:43:07.

renegotiation, I do not think he was asking for that. In my mind

:43:08.:43:10.

fundamental is more. If he delivered that and perhaps more, yes. I am not

:43:11.:43:13.

out at any cost but at the moment I am more out than in because I do not

:43:14.:43:18.

think what is negotiated is fundamental. The manifesto

:43:19.:43:23.

commitment was to reform the EU to try to bring down there. Migration.

:43:24.:43:27.

Do you think that would do that? I think it would help, but there are

:43:28.:43:32.

other factors why EU immigrants are coming to Britain, not least the

:43:33.:43:39.

failures in Euroland, mass unemployment in Greece. And the

:43:40.:43:48.

reason people are coming here is we have a vibrant economy, a global

:43:49.:43:51.

economy. It is more than just benefits involved. Do you think

:43:52.:43:56.

increasing the national wage could be a pull factor? Facts could be

:43:57.:44:01.

another reason why Romanian wages are probably a quarter of what they

:44:02.:44:06.

are here, and that difference will be greater as we go to the national

:44:07.:44:13.

wage. If you extended a four-year ban on in work benefits to EU

:44:14.:44:18.

migrants to British workers, that might be accepted, because it would

:44:19.:44:22.

not discriminate, would you support that? I think what is going on is

:44:23.:44:27.

camera and trying to please Tory backbenchers who wish for the exit

:44:28.:44:31.

door. His renegotiation is around whether we would deny EU migrants

:44:32.:44:38.

benefits for for years and whether he would penalise young British

:44:39.:44:40.

workers by denying them benefits goes to show how far he will go to

:44:41.:44:46.

hurt British workers by trying to please Tory backbenchers. If it was

:44:47.:44:50.

part of the deal, then it would no longer be discriminatory, and it

:44:51.:44:54.

might be accepted, would you support it? Labour's position is clear, we

:44:55.:45:02.

support being a member of the EU. I am asking about the specific on in

:45:03.:45:07.

work benefits because one option might be to say that until you have

:45:08.:45:12.

worked for years and contributed here, you also won't be able to

:45:13.:45:16.

claim in work benefits will stop then everybody is treated fairly.

:45:17.:45:17.

Would you back that? That is wrong. Penalising workers

:45:18.:45:28.

for four years is wrong. I said it should be two years. Looking more

:45:29.:45:33.

seriously at the bigger picture this is all about camera and trying to

:45:34.:45:38.

please... You have said that but Labour will be... Labour will be

:45:39.:45:47.

campaigning. We would not support the four year ban on benefits. We

:45:48.:45:52.

would stay within the EU and when we had the chance we would reverse that

:45:53.:45:56.

if we were to be in power. That is fair enough. You think David Cameron

:45:57.:46:01.

should compromise to try to get something on in work benefits or

:46:02.:46:06.

stick to his guns? I think he should stick to his guns but it is a

:46:07.:46:12.

developing situation. We will not know until Thursday. It seems pretty

:46:13.:46:18.

clear. It seems pretty clear. It would be fundamentally wrong to

:46:19.:46:21.

change the basis of how we do benefits in the UK for our citizens

:46:22.:46:26.

to fit a stalled EU negotiations so I do not support that. We should

:46:27.:46:30.

have the flexibility to have whatever benefit system we want in

:46:31.:46:35.

the UK, not to be changed by membership of the EU. You would not

:46:36.:46:40.

want to see any extension and you think there would be other Tories

:46:41.:46:44.

and Eurosceptics who would feel the same. It seems a funny back door way

:46:45.:46:48.

of trying to achieve what has been in negotiation point. The wrong way

:46:49.:46:49.

of doing it. Now, fans of Margaret Thatcher,

:46:50.:46:52.

or political memorabilia, A collection of the former

:46:53.:46:54.

PM's possessions - from dresses to handbags,

:46:55.:46:57.

books to ornaments - is being auctioned

:46:58.:46:59.

off at Christie's. But before you decide

:47:00.:47:01.

whether to bid for the Iron Lady's former despatch box or her favourite

:47:02.:47:03.

set of earrings, take a look at Peter Hunt's behind the scenes

:47:04.:47:06.

report on what's up for grabs and what it might tell us

:47:07.:47:09.

about Britain's first,

:47:10.:47:12.

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