21/03/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

As the Conservative Party descends into civil war,

will David Cameron be able to quell the unrest as he prepares to tell

the Commons that he still believes in compassionate Conservatism?

A "narrow attack on working age benefits".

Iain Duncan Smith's parting words are a gift for Labour,

The deal allowing migrants arriving in Greece to be sent back to Turkey

came into effect yesterday but is it deterring people from crossing?

And how doing this could land you with a ?100 fine

or even a criminal record.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme

today two former leadership hopefuls for their respective parties.

The Conservative MP, David Davis, and Labour's Chuka Umunna who's

fresh from the launch of his All-Party Parliamentary Group

First this morning, leaving the EU could cost ?100 billion to the UK

economy and cause the loss of almost a million jobs,

according to a report commissioned by the Confederation

The analysis by the accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers

says household incomes could be between ?2,100 and ?3,700 lower

If that isn't a project fear, I don't know what is. It is perfectly

legitimate to point out the risks involved in us leaving, but of

course the campaign that I am a part of, hands on the table, it also

telling the story of things we stand to gain through continued

membership. The CBI represent over 150,000 businesses employing 7

million people in our country. They are pointing out that if we leave it

could cost up to 100 billion and we could lose 1 million jobs. That is

research and it should be taken notice of because of who the CBI is.

Of course there will be research on the other side as well. For me it is

not just an economic issue. It is about how we see our country, how we

amplify the great in Great Britain. We are already a fantastic country,

so making sure we can achieve good tangible things or people at home

and abroad. It is a serious organisation, so on those figures,

they would be mad to vote to leave the EU. Which is the serious

organisation? PricewaterhouseCoopers? The CBI? Are

you saying that the numbers are wrong? I am, essentially. The

numbers assume there is no low skilled immigration, and that is

where the numbers disappear. One of the ex-members of the monetary

committee tweeted earlier that the difference we are talking about over

nearly 20 years that they are forecasting is less than the change

in the forecast between the Autumn Statement last year and the budget

this year. It is tiny. Different in tone though. I agree with Chuka

Umunna on one thing. It is not about finely balanced forecasts. They have

made mistakes, but put that to one side. This simple truth is this is

about how we see our country. We have got a great country. Can it

stand on its own to feet? Yes. It can do a better deal with free-trade

and Europe has done in the past. Is it a country that can grow off the

back of this? My view is yes, as the viewers know. This report is

irrelevant. Interesting that you should raise the members of that

committee, because the person who oversaw this PricewaterhouseCoopers

report is a former member. And didn't think to point out how small

the differences. He clearly thinks it will have a detrimental affect on

our economy. In the end, I wouldn't argue that if we leave the European

Union we couldn't stand on our own two feat. But would it be better? If

we put the figures aside because that will not win or lose the arc

and, although it is interesting that when we have both sides on, you go

to the figures, but putting that aside, will you be able to convince

people that they wouldn't be liberated or better off if there was

a vote to leave the EU? That is the proposition being put by the other

side. I don't buy the notion that we are shackled by the European Union,

which the other side are putting. If we look at votes from the European

Council, nine out of ten times we are on the majority side. I don't

buy this talking down Britain's influence in the European Union and

getting run over because that doesn't happen. I have been there, I

have negotiated in this council, I know how it works. 72 times in the

last ten years we have tried to stop the European Union and 72 times we

have lost. How many times have we won? The fundamental point is

countries try to avoid falling out with each other. We are the ones

being outvoted. Listen. We have been outvoted more times than any other

country in the European Union. Latvia, Lithuania, nobody has been

outvoted more times than we have. As the country done so badly being part

of the EU? A lot of it has been under a Conservative Government

recently, which says this country has done well economically and it is

the Conservative Government that has kept Great Britain out of the Euro

crisis. Originally the decision was under Labour, but out of the Euro

crisis and out of Schengen. What are you liberating Britain from? If you

want to talk history, if you look at history Britain, when we joined in

73, we were doing badly. In terms of exports to Europe. We were never

very good at that. The Commonwealth and not to Europe. When we joined,

we joined, we did really well for about 20 years, what you might call

the common market period. Since the single market period, which everyone

thought was the common market squared, actually we have done

relatively poorly. Less well than countries outside the European Union

in selling into Europe. Go on, finish your point. There is plenty

of evidence to show you if you want to look at it. Look at the issue of

free trade negotiations. Not just a Europe that other parts of the

world. But we can negotiate bilateral agreements. We can't. Let

me finish. Briefly! We can't do it. When they do it for us, in two

thirds of those areas, our export rate goes down. Reply and then we

move on. We benefit from the fact we don't have tariffs when we sell to

the EU, our biggest export market. You are assuming tariffs would be

imposed? Yes. But we also have trade agreements with 50 other countries.

I am not saying we couldn't reach the trade agreement with another

country but we would have more bargaining power. When negotiating

with China, they have 3 billion people and we are sitting on this

side of the table with half a billion people. I don't believe we

would have the same clout sitting on our own. On that basis, we finish.

Obviously that conversation with David and Chuka was incredibly

illuminating, but you'd be forgiven for getting rather confused

with all the facts and figures thrown about on the EU.

So if you have any burning questions do get in touch with us by tweeting

and include the word #dpeu or you can use the contact us

page on our website at bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics.

This Thursday we'll put your questions to

the Conservative's Sam Gyimah and Ukip's Paul Nuttall who I'm sure

will both do their very best to answer as clearly as possible.

After all the stress of the last few days you can hardly blame

Perhaps he doesn't want to come back.

is he planning to do this Easter break?

At the end of the show Chuka and David will give us the correct

Maybe they can tell is where they are going on their Easter break.

Now, in case you've had your head buried in the sand for a few days,

you're probably aware that all is not well

After Iain Duncan Smith's resignation on Friday,

the Prime Minister will today use a statement in the House of Commons

to defend a record of what he calls "modern, compassionate

Yesterday Mr Duncan Smith took to the airwaves to declare

that the Government was in "danger of drifting in a direction that

divides society rather than unites it".

His particular complaint was over initial plans to cut over ?4 billion

from the bill for disability benefits, which Mr Duncan Smith

He went on: "It just looks like we see this as a pot of money,

that it doesn't matter because they don't vote for us.

Today the Prime Minister will use a statement in the Commons

to respond to the criticisms and defend his record of "modern,

compassionate Conservatism" which he says has been his trademark

since he became party leader in 2005.

Last night Conservative grandee Sir Roger Gale criticised

Mr Duncan Smith, saying he was guilty of opportunism

at its absolute worst and suggested the former Work

and Pensions Secretary had an ulterior motive.

He went on to say the resignation was designed to do as much damage

In cause and in support of the Brexit cause as possible.

Today's Times makes further grim reading for the Government

with the Prime Minister reportedly telling a Cabinet colleague

that he blames George Osborne for the row over disability cuts.

Former Conservative leader Michael Howard urged MPs to calm

down and remember the party's collective responsibility

However, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said George Osborne needs

to come to the House of Commons and explain how

he will reconfigure his Budget in the wake of Iain Duncan Smith's

Our party is very, very clear that we want to protect the personal

independence payments for those with disabilities. The Budget doesn't add

up. The Chancellor of the Exchequer should come back to Parliament and

explain that. Far from just Iain Duncan Smith residing, if the

Chancellor puts forward a Budget, which he did, knowing full well that

he was taking this huge hit on the disabled, then really it should be

perhaps in considering his position as well as Iain Duncan Smith who has

already gone. Jeremy Corbyn. I'm joined now from central lobby

by Conservative MP Chris Philp, a member of the Treasury

Select Committee. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

Iain Duncan Smith has said this Government is in danger of drifting

in a direction that divides society rather than uniting it. Is he wrong?

I think he is wrong. The Government's record is a good one.

800,000 people less Rian relative poverty than five years ago. Wages

are going up. Thousands of children no longer live workless households.

We have put through the biggest increase in the minimum wage at and

given gigantic tax cuts to people on low incomes by increasing the

personal threshold. This Government has a fantastic record of helping

people on low incomes. Taking the point about disabilities, we are

spending more on disabled benefits now that Labour were five years ago,

both in pound terms of real terms, and even if these changes go

through, which it looks like they will not, even without that,

disability spending would have increased by ?1 billion a year so I

disagree with Iain Duncan Smith's conclusions. So you stand by the

policy of restricting the personal independence payment even though the

changes will not happen? I think it is right that it should be reviewed

and it is a measure of the Government's maturity and

sensitivity that when a policy is proposed... That is not how it was

taken by Iain Duncan Smith. He did acknowledge that it was just a

consultation. It is a sign of the Government's maturity and

sensitivity that when something is criticised, they are willing to

think again, as they did over working tax credits. I think it is a

sign of strength and maturity and it is good to look again to make sure

that the things proposed actually work. The Conservatives make sure

that people who need help get that help and that is why disability

spending is higher now than it has ever been at any point in the

history of this country. You could call is majority or a backlash

trying to hold the party together and they are out of touch because

they did not predict this reaction, despite protests from Tory MPs about

changes to tax credits. What do you say about the judgment of George

Osborne? It was a consultation and when you are looking to do something

contentious and difficult, doing a consultation and listening to that

consultation is the right thing to do and it is exactly what happened.

When it comes to welfare reform, Iain Duncan Smith argued, even

though he has seen these things -- overseeing these things, everything

has fallen apart from pensioner benefits. How does that square with

the idea that we are in it together? The richest 1% in this country pay

30% of all taxes, a higher figure than under Labour. The richest in

society are paying their fair share, and in fact more than they used to.

But I am asking about benefits. Iain Duncan Smith said the problem was

the juxtaposition, what he saw as reductions to disability payments

and then at the same time offering cuts, tax breaks, to the middle

classes, with cuts in corporation tax, capital gains tax, and raising

the threshold at which you pay the 40p tax rate. That is not we are all

in this together. We will come to that but the biggest tax cut of all

is raising the threshold from 6000 to 11,000 500. The biggest change

disproportionately benefits people on low incomes.

Keeping manifesto promises is a good thing, not a bad thing.

One of the reasons why this country has create 2.4 million new jobs,

more than the rest of Europe put together, is because we cut

corporation tax from 28-17%, encouraging businesses to create

jobs. The way to combat poverty and help people earn more money is by

job creation. In fact, that is our strategy and it's working. It's not

sustainable. . We are 4% of the world's economy but 7% of the

world's welfare state spending so getting people off welfare and in

work is the right thing for the country and for individuals. 2.3

million jobs is something we can be proud of. There was a suggestion IDS

has an Al tierior motive -- you will steerior motive, do you think he

did? It's difficult to know what an individual is thinking. I won't go

as far as questioning IDS's motives. Let's say he's concerned and it's a

coincidence it helps his Out campaign. Does it help it? Well, I

think he would probably think it destabilises the Government a little

bit and any resignation does. I'm happen Foy take it at face value and

happy to argue with him on his terms, as I think he's wrong on the

basis of the facts. People on low incomes are as a matter-of-fact

better off than five years ago. He should know. He's been the Work and

Pensions Secretary for an awfully long time. If we take it at face

value, that he was being authentic, particularly with the amount of work

he's done on this issue, if he's saying this actually really is sort

of attacking the very core of compassionate conservatism, that

really damages David Cameron and George Osborne's leadership? I think

IDS is simply wrong about that. If you look at the fact we are spending

more money today on disability benefits, than in the past,

including under the last Labour Government. The biggest ever

increase in the minimum wage is coming, helping people on lower

incomes, we are lifting millions of people out of income tax entirely,

the lowest paid. All those things help people on low incomes and back

to work. The record is one to be proud of. Tell even Crabb, where's

he going to find the ?4 billion for... It's ?1 billion a year which

is about 1% of the budget. Where should it come from? He needs to

have a look at that, think very carefully and make sure people

who're entitled to benefits claim them, particularly for the minor

conditions. The issues with the PIPs, people were getting points,

for example if people needed help getting their shoes on. That's not

right. The proposals need fine tuning. Some things do need

changing. The fundamental point is getting people off welfare, into

work, more people on disabilitiesing than ever before and we need to see

more than that -- on disabilities than ever before. Stay with us.

IDS sat at the Cabinet table, he will have listened to discussions

Pre-Budget, he's now resigning over a cut that isn't going to happen? It

goes back to something more fundamental than the single cut. You

saw it perhaps at its most clear in the general election when both David

Cameron and George Osborne were talking about 12 billion cuts in

welfare. But at the same time saying we are not going to cut Winter Fuel

Payments for wealthy pensioners, we are not going to cut free travel for

pensioners. He's got a budget of ?220 billion odd. Massive? So it's

natural George would look there. Over ?120 billion of it is pensioner

payments and that was off limits. He knew that because of the manifesto.

He's known for a long time and must be decided it would be part of the

discusses. He was exasperated by that happening time and time again.

He was forced to find a cut in the area which, for him, is fundamental.

This man's spent ten years of his life pretty much committed himself

to helping out the working poor, getting them back on the escalator,

off their backs because he believes they've ended up in that position

because of bad luck or bad breaks, bad family things, schools,

whatever. That's been fundamental. What he's I think felt over time,

time and time again, is that he's been handicapped in that by the fact

he's got to focus all his cuts, inevitably some cuts in this area,

all the cuts in that area. Why did you resign now, that's the thing. He

said the latest plan to restrict disability benefits was deeply

unfair and we have been through that with Chris. Isn't the truth though

that the original reform, the replacement of the Disability Living

Allowance with the personal independence payment PIT has been an

expensive fiasco, that's what it was called by the Public Accounts

Committee and that happened entirely on Iain Duncan Smith's watch. It's

expensive. That, as you said earlier, now looks withdrawn. He

still faces the problem of finding ?4 billion over four years from that

part of his budget. He's forced into that part of his budget which for

him he's done it time and time again. Universal Credit is looking

problematic because of the cost in constraint. All of that reflects a -

he thinks I suspect an assault on the central area of reform he wants

to bring about. As for why does it take him so long - to resign from a

job which is the centre of what you have been trying to do is an

incredibly painful thing to do. I know, I've been there. It's not easy

to do. No, so if he wanted to stay committed to the cause that he has

devoted so much time to, why did he resign at all unless there was an

ulterior motive to leave to EU? I think that's absolute nonsense. Do

you? Yes. Or did it poison Cabinet so much that he thought actually I'm

going to lose my job anyway? I don't think so. I saw arguments in the

Westminster village, most of it is nonsense. I don't know what the

atmosphere was, I don't think it's difficult. I think actually the fact

a referendum's been given's taken all of that poison out of the

debate. It's inflicted the Tory party in the past, no doubt about

it, but it's actually outside. You have Bill Cash and Bernard Jenkin

saying you did the right thing to allow a referendum because it takes

it outside Parliament, allows it to be a people's judgment. You can't

really ignore the context of the EU referendum here though. Iain Duncan

Smith was perhaps the most awkward and vociferous rebels against John

Major's Government over the Maastricht Treaty so even though it

didn't cause him to resign, collective responsibility's made

people feel they can do things they have not Don previously? The press

were excited about all the Cabinet Ministers being there and

campaigning to vote Leave. They were in the photo because they were

Cabinet Ministers. It gave them standing and leverage, normally the

backbench wouldn't have that. Had Iain Duncan Smith said I'm against

Europe, it wouldn't have made the back page, let alone the front-page

of the newspapers. This is not about that. You have got to understand,

Iain has been a man devoured by an aim... Also a bad relationship

between him and George Osborne that's gone on for a very long time,

very bad blood between them. Gossip columns... Oh, you know. People

underestimate because I'm afraid political journalists underestimate

that level of principle commitment. It's eaten him up over the years and

that's why it's been so painful for him to leave. Principles, he should

be a hero in Labour circles? This idea that he's a champion of the

disabled and the low-paid and those who need help is nonsense.

OK, he's recanted on personal independence payments, that is a

good thing, but he was the biggest champion of the bedroom tax and two

thirds of those who were hit by that ultimately were the disabled. But my

bigger sadness is not that it's taken him so long to recant, but

actually that if you look at polling on this and where the public are,

because we are increasingly becoming such a segregated society, many

people in work don't know people who're in receipt of benefits. You

look at the bedroom tax, a substantial part of the population

supported that, so one of the big questions is, how do we build

stronger bonds between us so there's greater understanding. The villain

of the peace here is George Osborne. He has, budget after budget, behaved

like a conartist going around telling people that he has

progressive budgets and those with the broader shoulders pay the

heaviest burden when we know that is anything but the case. IDS, if you

like, has exposed that in technicolour. That's why Jeremy

Corbyn was right that George should look at his own position because

he's ultimately responsible. I've got 788 people in my constituency in

receipt of this personal independent payment who face having this cut

unless hopefully we'll see a reversal. Sounds like it might be

shelved. They have already been clobber bid the bedroom tax which

was cruel beyond belief. Chris, is George Osborne's career finished in

trying to go for the leadership on the basis of what Chuka said?

Definitely not. Look at his record as Chancellor. We have had a massive

minimum wage increase, unemployment's gone down enormously.

We have created 2.3 million new jobs. Unememployment's fallen by a 5

... 55... But Chris. David Willets, a minister in the last Parliament,

the resolution foundation's very clear, it's a respected independent

think-tank. The majority say, for example, of the income tax changes,

which will occur, will disproportionately benefit the top

10% of earners. You were wrong to suggest the low-paid will not be

paying tax. Of course they will be paying tax, they'll be paying

national insurance. This mantra, taking the low-paid out of tax all

together, it's nonsense. Out of income tax. Come on! Come on, it has

been a massive achievement of the coalition and this Government to

take a lot of the lowest paid out of income tax. It's a significant

component of their business. But hang on a second. You ought to

recognise that. Tax Credits, taking those things away. Use offset things

against that. You haven't been able to bring the party with you. Can he

still be leader, George Osborne? If there is a leadership contest in the

next few months, no, but beyond that, you know as well as I do, the

memory span of the Westminster village is a few months. Really,

amongst Tory MPs, they'll forgive him do you think? You will be his

campaign manager! Thank you very much! Before we let

Chris go, yes, you can announce your leadership! John Major famously

referred to the bustards at the time of his treaty. Has Iain Duncan Smith

graduated to that status again with his resignation? No, I find it hard

to understand because he ran on the manifesto and we got a majority

elected on the manifesto that included ?12 billion of welfare

savings so he can't claim it's a surprise. The policy he was objected

to, the PIPs will now be looked at again. So I find it surprising but I

wouldn't describe him in those terms, no. Are you going to run the

Chancellor's campaign for leadership then because you have defended him

vigorously? Listen, I defend the Government and the Chancellor

because I know they are doing a good job, there is no vacancy at the

moment and there won't be for some time to come, so we shouldn't engage

in speculation and we should focus on the job.

On Sunday the European Union's deal with Turkey to stop the migrant flow

from Turkey to Greece came into force.

Syrian migrants and refugees who arrive in Greece are now

expected to be sent back if their asylum claims

Despite that hundreds of migrants have continued to arrive.The BBC's

James Reynolds joins us now from Lesbos.

Do migrants arriving realise the rules have changed?

Not all of them. I was on the beach on Sunday morning as they cheered

when they arrived. It was suggested to me that they simply didn't know

the rules had changed and that they may not be able to stay in Europe

all that long. I explained to some they might have to go back and they

looked pretty devastated. The fact that more people have come today,

this morning, several hundred of them from less boss, clearly

indicates word's not crossed the Aegean that things have changed. In

that case, there are going to be more and more people, if you like,

stranded in Greece, some of them will be forcibly removed because

they won't want to claim asylum there because they want to get the

Germany, but what is going to happen to those people just sitting

waiting? Two sets of people here, I don't

want to go too much down a worm hole which might lose everyone if I try

to explain it. But essentially you have got at the moment, 45,000 to

50,000 migrants who will be abiding by the old rules, they are eligible

to stay in Europe and to be relocated. The trouble for them is

that no-one's stepped forward from Europe saying I'll have that lot, a

few here and a few there, so those people might be stranded in Greece.

The next lot, the second lot of people are those who've been

arriving since Sunday. The European essentially says if they do not have

the right to relocation, unless they have a valid asylum claim. If the

claims which would take place, some of them behind me, are refused,

they'll be turned back and taken to Turkey.

Thank you. Apologies for the poor line. It is technically not very

easy. We're joined by the Labour Peer Lord

Dubs who has an amendment in the Lords today to give 3000

unaccompanied child refugees Welcome to the Daily Politics.

Before we get onto that amendment, it is early days, and do you think

of this one out and one in system will work? To be honest, I don't

know. The jury is out. The intention is a good one. That all people who

have the intention of becoming refugees should be able to claim

their status and have that status and the United Nations rules. Some

people are coming in and are clearly would-be refugees. Others are just

coming because it is another way of getting into Europe. I don't blame

them for that but it does not qualify under the refugee

Convention. You don't think there is something distasteful about a deal

predicated on migrants crossing from Turkey to Greece create this one for

one resettlement in Europe? If it works and it stops them leaving

Turkey, then it will be successful, provided that other people know that

the way to get into Europe is to claim refugee status, and if they

qualify then they can come in. What evidence is there that this will

deter anyone? We have seen the numbers turning up. James Reynolds

has said that the new rule changes have not got through to everyone,

but even when they do, do we think people wait to try and cross into

Europe when they are being bombed and shelled at home? Well, it will

have an effect. How big the effect is, we don't know, clearly. Look at

it the other way round. When Angela Merkel said come to Germany, it went

up. So I think it will go down. There are other aspects of the

agreement that much more problematic than that but I think at least this

may well reduce some of the flow, which means fewer people will die at

CMU Mediterranean, which is the most important thing. I agree with that.

I think we are capping the numbers we are taking at 70 2000. Yes, but

the claims in Europe were over 1 million in 2015. -- we are capping

the numbers at 72,000. Yes, but is it fair? Is that number of 72,000 a

fair number? It is not a fair world. The system is grotesquely unfair and

we have not found a way of dealing with it but this is an attempt to

deal with one aspect of it. I think there is a misinformation put that

goes on, as though this is the fault of the European Union. Isn't it? No.

J Hardy is in the Middle East, growing problems, and if we were not

in the European Union we would still have to grapple with this problem.

Yes, but some people have legitimately, I think, it said is

the EU cannot deal coherently with a problem like this then what is it

for? They need to do a better job. On the discussion of how many people

come in, I was talking about this in my speech today, that we need to

have a bigger discussion about what happens when people settle here and

how we had great damage to our communities. Be careful about that.

It is clearly the case that Schengen makes it more difficult to deal

with. A border free Europe makes migration flows more difficult to

deal with, which is why there is such tension between many of the

countries and Germany. When Angela Merkel said come to Germany, they

came to Europe, not just in Germany. But we are not in Schengen. I am

just making the point about how difficult it is for Europe to deal

with it. This difficult eastern border which is difficult to man

anyway. But if countries had taken quotas, it could have been handled

in a more systematic way. You would still have the flood and the problem

of managing where they are. Does it betray Europe's values? Shouldn't

the EU deal with this crisis? They could have taken quotas, individual

countries, rather than outsourcing the problem to Turkey at a price.

You asking not complicated things. Angela Merkel has become a

conscience of Europe. Who thought that would white meat -- who would

have thought that would happen? If other people had taken on the burden

sharing people, it would have been better, a better world. I think we

should have tried to do that. I think we should have tried to share.

Above all what we have got to do is find a way of stopping people

drowning in the seas. We have got to find a way of assessing whether they

are refugees or not. Other people come in as well and they don't claim

to be refugees. We have got to find a way of doing that and this latest

effort is an attempt to do that, so to this extent, it is fair. As for

the price to Turkey, should we be relying on Turkey? Poor human rights

record, freedom of the press is curtailed, so is this the country we

should be doing this sort of deal with? To be honest, I am not sure we

have any choice. They are the ones geographically in that position and

ensuring that we provide aid and support, and I think we are the

second-biggest contributor to that, so that people aren't making that

dangerous journey but they are closest to the territory from which

they have come, that is an important part of this. There is not one magic

solution to this. You need a sweep of measures. I worry about different

aspects of the deal. I don't worry about the exchange. That is sensible

and I don't worry about the subsidy. Visa free access to everybody with

Turkish papers is incredibly dangerous for European security,

because we know the Turkish Government has been helpful to Isil

and other jihadist groups, so what is to tell you the people the

Turkish papers are definitely takes? There is a serious issue hidden it

behind some sensible measures. What do you make of Lord Dubs's proposal

to take in 3000 unaccompanied children? We don't know. The British

Government has tried a number of things in advance of other

countries. We were the first to put money into countries around Syria,

and we are talking about large sums and I think we are still the

second-biggest in the world. We have tried to say that we will take

children from camps there because that will not have a pull factor

effect. That is still part of the 20,000? I think there is some

addition now, new proposal in the few days. I think the Government has

done a good job of trying to balance those two problems and I don't know

the details of this. The argument in favour of my amendment this

afternoon is that there are estimated to be 24,000 unaccompanied

child refugees in Europe. These children are possibly in Greece,

possibly Italy, possibly near Calais. They are vulnerable to

people traffickers, vulnerable to criminality, vulnerable to being

lured into prostitution. We owe them safety. The point of my amendment is

that 3000 would-be Britain's share of the larger total. We could handle

that. In 1938 we had 10,000 unaccompanied children coming in and

I was one of them. These are 3000. I think we can manage that. The crisis

is pretty severe, having young people homeless, adrift, sleeping in

the streets. We can't let that go on. How are you doing in terms of

getting support? Ask me later today! I am delighted that the public

response has been as it is. One backbencher like me would not

normally attract that kind of attention. People have said they

welcome it and we know people who have offered to be foster parents.

They have got to be vetted and so on. I think it is astonishing and I

am delighted. I think too often in the immigration debate it is boils

down to numbers. Because of the targets that the Home Secretary has

set. In the end we are talking about human beings. We are talking about

individuals. I think in the end as human beings we should do what we

can. I think 3000 compared to the 11,000 that we took in in the 1930s

is doable. The reason it boils down to numbers is... It doesn't. It is

human beings and that is my point. We don't distinguish between

refugees and... In my amendment. I know, but we are just answering this

point. The numbers have grown explosively. Economic migrants,

exactly, that is my point. Lord Leavey threatened to resign this

week are less Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, made it absolutely

clear that anti-Semitism will not be tolerated in the Labour Party and he

said he has not gone far enough in cracking down on it. That Jeremy

Corbyn do more on that issue? I was at the meeting on Monday and he was

asked about this and he said adamantly that they totally abhor

racism and anti-Semitism, so it depends how much people hear what he

says. But you say there is a problem of anti-Semitism among some elements

of the far left. Jeremy Corbyn has already said that he despises racism

and anti-Semitism that is enough being done in the far left? Baroness

Royle is carrying out an investigation into what has happened

at the Oxford University Labour Club. It would be disingenuous to

deny that on fringes of the left their having problems with

anti-Semitism but if anyone can lead the charge in stamping it out and

showing zero tolerance to it, it is Jeremy. I am hopeful that he will do

that because we cannot stand for any discrimination or prejudice of any

type whatsoever in the Labour Party. I am dismayed that we are seeing the

reports that we are seeing but is beholden on us to stamp it out and

deal with it. I think that it absolutely clear and I agree with

you entirely but we have got to be careful that when people at critical

of Israeli Government policies, they are not accused of being

anti-Semitic, and some people merge the two and they are clearly totally

different. Yes. Thank you. Did you know you could get fined

for carrying golf bags And you're not allowed out

after 11pm if you're under It's all down to what's called

Public Space Protection Orders, essentially powers given to councils

in England and Wales to deal They've been seen by some

as the son of the ASBO, and in certain areas are proving

just as controversial. Ellie and producer Sam have

been to find out more in Hillingdon, and we should say no

Public Space Protection Orders were breached in the

making of this film. Welcome to the London Borough

of Hillingdon, where the council has It means you can get

into trouble for doing certain things like gathering

in groups of two or more. So Sam, my esteemed colleague and I,

decided to go into the shopping centre there and loiter,

where we could get fined up to ?100. Similarly, in the same area,

if I decided it would be easier for me to get around

by skateboard, I could In other parts of Hillingdon

it is not the skateboard they are worried about

but cars, specifically stationary or parked cars,

left with their engines running. Sam, have you left

the engine running? The idea behind it is to combat

anti-social behaviour. In set areas there is a ban

on spitting, and drinking alcohol It is stopping people for example

gathering in groups of more People mustn't spit

on the roads and that. The council has got

powers to stop and fine you if you are in that shopping

centre standing more than one of you, standing

together in a group. They are worried about

anti-social behaviour. Why should we be fined

for standing in a place? You know if there is

a group of elderly people standing there,

they will not get fined. Using a skateboard, pedal cycles,

rollerskates, rollerblades or other similar devices could land yourself

with a fine of ?100. I agree with that because they whizz

around and you have to put your brakes on really quickly

because you nearly Hillingdon isn't the only council

that's issued these Public Space One civil rights group

suggests there are at least The Local Government

Association says they offer a quicker response

than prosecuting offenders Surely the idea behind

this is just to give local councils the power to deal

with local problems. Well, it is all very well

for public authorities to say, "We are going to pass these very

vague and broad orders but you can trust us only to enforce them

in the right circumstances." We think that is wholly incompatible

with the rule of law. These orders create

criminal offences. When you are talking about criminal

offences people should be able whether or not they are on the wrong

side or the right side of the law and this kind of discretion is not

compatible with civil liberties. We did approach Hillingdon

Council for an interview Maybe they were worried

about being caught in a group of two I am very pleased to say they

managed to avoid arrest or finds in that film.

We're joined now by the Opposition Leader for Hammersmith

Fulham Council, Greg Smith, who for eight years was in charge

Some of these offences sound bizarre. Standing in a pan left your

after bus stop, that is Hillingdon Council's take on this. That is

surely a mistake. I think so. I am all for localism. When something

serious in a locality blows up and it is affecting people's lives,

noise, kids not being able to sleep, or not being able to get to achieve

station, as we had in Hammersmith and Fulham about ten years ago, but

the council to be able to react quickly for a short period of time

to solve that problem, that is what I am in favour of. Is it OK to have

a power where you are not allowed to assemble in groups of more than one?

We are seeing an increase in rough sleeping particularly in London. The

way to deal with that is not to criminalise a whole group of people

but is actually to ensure we build more homes and we have a massive

problem on that in London. Secondly, I worry about it disproportionately

being used against young people who increasingly are stereotyped and

demonised in British society and too often a are kind of painted as a

problem simply by convening together in a particular place. Yes because

what do you expect young people toe do? If they meet with friends with

skate boards, surely that's not a criminal offence? Totally. I'm not

suggesting I would want to see... Some local councils are? Sure. I

can't speak for other local councils, that's for them to answer.

Certainly I wouldn't want to see in Hammersmith or Fulham, restrictions

on one or two Kong are gating. For inexplicable reasons sometimes,

certain locations become megahotspots where suddenly you find

hundreds of people congregating in often small places, housing estates,

which is the way a lot were built in London makes them... And is

intimidating? Stops kids sleeping, and we need to do something about

it. Some of the evidence shows that it works apparently, for a short

period of time, as Greg was saying, to troubleshoot in local areas, if

you want to devolve powers, this is what you get? It depends how wide

the pow, you are that you devolve. This allows councils to translate

what would be a civil offence into a criminal offence. That is a power

devolution too far. I have a lot of sympathy with Greg's public order

issues and to some extent the police should deal with that as well. This

sort of thing can focus on rough sleepers, religious preachers and

people having a demo and using a megaphone. This is too broadly

drawn. So does it need to be... You narrow it down. So it's too broad.

Don't forget, often you end up with displacement. An issue in my borough

is prostitution. What you often find - I mean we are doing an inquiry on

the Home Affairs Select Committee on this now - but once you have moved

it from one area, you are simply displacing it to another place where

actually you need to get to grips with why it's happening. I have

sympathy with my constituencies, why is it that young people haven't got

enough to do? There are loads of different reasons for that which we

could fill a whole programme talking about. We'll leave you to think

about that. Thank you very much. Now, we've spent quite a lot of time

discussing the EU referendum but there are some other rather

important elections taking Here's our handy Daily Politics

guide. There are seven sets

of elections happening in May, all of which will take

place on the same day, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland

will hold national elections. There are 60 seats up for grabs

in the Welsh Assembly. The Scottish Parliament

will elect 129 seats, where the SNP currently

holds a majority. And in Northern Ireland

there are 108 seats which will be decided for representatives

to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Across England there are local

government elections.124 councils 35 Metropolitan councils,

19 unitary authorities And four cities in England

will elect Mayors, London, Londoners will also elect members

to the London Assembly And finally, voters in 41 police

forces in England and Wales will elect a Police

and Crime Commissioner. And we're joined now from Glasgow

by the elections expert How important are the local

elections bearing in mind just over a month is the EU referendum? Well,

you use the word local elections but I think people in Northern Ireland,

Wales and Scotland would dispute that. For them, as you said, in your

earlier piece, these are national elections. The truth is, this is the

biggest set of mid term elections between now, certainly and 2019 when

we get the European elections. The truth is for Scotland, Wales and

Northern Ireland, their devolved assemblies are now clearly, for many

things, the principled body that makes decisions in those parts of

the UK. For London of course it's the London Mayor and that's become a

really important office inside the capital. The Police and Crime

Commissioner as well, the truth is many people struggle to understand

what that is about and they had an appallingly low turnout when the

first elections were held in November 2012. Again, the local

elections in England for people who have them, again, they'll determine

their local councils. This is certainly a big, important set of

elections. There's real power at stake here and, to that extent at

least, it will help shape the future of British politics through the next

four or five years. Let's look at Scotland. How do you rate Labour's

chances in terms of any recovery there.

Zero is almost the answer to that question. Right. The Labour Party is

struggling north of the border, it has been ever since the 2014

independence referendum. Since then, politics in Scotland has been

primarily about are you for or against independence. Most who voted

yes look as though they are determined to vote for the SNP and

there's about a fifth of people who'll be willing to vote for the

SNP even though they didn't vote for independence because they like the

idea of SNP standing up for Scotland. The opinion polls at the

moment in Scotland put Labour at around a fifth of the vote, which,

if that were to transpire into the ballot boxes would be the party's

worst performance in any elections since and including the first

contest in 1918. So the SNP unassailable there because I presume

the Tories won't do much better than they are at the moment? Absolutely

correct. The Conservatives in Scotland look as though they are

towards the high end of the range within which they have been

oscillating ever since 1997 when they got a whitewash in the UK

general election. The polls putting them at around 17-18% and that's led

to excitement to speculation whether the Tories can get ahead of Labour.

It's second place over which there was excitement is not much

excitement over first. Just finally, the Mayoral election

in London, how important is that? Oh, this is undoubtedly important

because this is probably Jeremy Corbyn's best prospect of emerging

out of these elections with good news. Back in 2008 when the London

Mayoral contest was last, sorry, back in 2012 when the London Mayoral

contest was fought, Boris Johnson won, even though the party won to

the Greater London Assembly, he was perfectly clear it was a personal

vote for Boris Johnson. Zac Goldsmith doesn't have the same

personal vote, credit to him. The truth is, the opinion polls suggest

Sadiq Khan ought to wear the London Mayoral election and indeed Jeremy

Corbyn badly needs him to, because it could well be the case that it's

in London that the best news for the Labour Party comes.

Back to the fall-out from Iain Duncan Smith's resignation.

The self-styled quiet man of British politics certainly didn't go out

quietly yesterday when he appeared on the Andrew Marr Show.

Here he is responding to criticisms that his departure had more to do

with his opposition to the Prime Minister

and Chancellor's stance on the EU than concern for the disadvantaged.

I care for one thing and one thing only.

It is that the people that don't get the opportunities that my children

I want them given that opportunity and everything I have tried to do

Yes, we can debate some of those things that people didn't

like because they are more about the deficit than about welfare

reform, but overarchingly what I am passionate about is getting that

reform done so society is reformed, so we have more of those people

who have been left behind brought back into the sphere and the arena

We're joined now by Trevor Kavanagh of the Sun and Polly Toynbee

Welcome both of you. How much did the EU referendum play a part in

Iain Duncan Smith's decision to go at this point? I think the two

things are inseparable. I don't believe Iain would have left had the

European Union referendum not been under way. I think he was driven by

other motives which of course as he's explained very clearly, but I

don't think he was unconscious of the impact his resignation would

have on the Brexit campaign. Do you think he thought he was going to be

dumped anyway after the referendum? As I understand it, that'ses the way

things are shaping up. They also probably thought his Universal

Credit scheme was going to be ditched or frozen and I think that

he decided that all of that was, there was another battle to fight

which was Europe and he decided to fight that too. How does Labour make

the most out of this in terms of it improving its chances? Well, I think

it partly just sits and watches the bodies float by beside the river. I

think that what Iain Duncan Smith has done is to deliver a devastating

blow to the authority of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor and the

referendum campaign depends crucially on their authority. This

is very risky and Labour has to be careful not to do anything to

unsettle the campaign. Labour is united in wanting to stay in Europe.

Up to a point. Well, two Maveriks. A few more than two, but... Very few.

It's extraordinary and I think Labour has to keep its eye on the

ball about that referendum campaign and understand that what Iain Duncan

Smith is doing is undermining that. It's a difficult game to play

because of course, the other thing is that everything Iain Duncan Smith

says now utterly utterly overturns everything he's done. The sheer

cruelty of what he's imposed on people knowingly, of what goes on in

his Jobcentres that he's instructed to sanction people, to throw people

off benefits for almost nothing. Is it the end of compassionate

conservatism though either for the reasons Polly's put forward thatty

was in it all the way up to his next if you want to view it that way in

terms of welfare, or his very well laid out arguments yesterday on the

Marr programme that he was on a mission and he doesn't trust the

Government to deliver that mission any more actually, and that is

devastating for David Cameron and George Osborne? I think they could

argue that they have been successful with compassionate Conservatives.

There are a million more jobs created. They have to do something

about a ?100 billion budget on welfare, we can't afford it. The big

mistake was to ringfence pensions and Jeffers seas aid. Because that

doesn't leave them many options. What does it go d to George

Osborne's leadership chances? I think at this staining they are

finished. All together -- at this stage. David Davis said they are

finished for now? I don't think there's any hope of him becoming

leader and the Labour Party must be, it must be music to their ears, they

must be thinking, if only we'd picked someone other than Jeremy

Corbyn, they could be cashing in on this. In fact, all this cashing in,

the stuff about the personalities, it's a very... It's a principle

isn't it? There is a human face to what was going on. I've got 780

people who're in receipt of personal independence payments, keen to see

what is going to happen to them and in the end, people have come in,

there have been reports of people who've committed suicide in my

constituency because of the harsh cruelty of what the welfare changes

are. I don't even like calling it welfare, we are calling it social

security. It's a human face and a reality. I don't care about

Osborne's career... I talked to Iain about this. I can tell you, this is

the passion of his life, welfare reform, getting people back into

work was what he cared about. Actually, in that respect, this

Government's been phenomenally successful. Interesting that all his

defenders are people like you who are Brexiters. People like Bernard

Jenkins never in his life expressed any tenderness towards the poor,

suddenly everyone is weeping crocodile tears. Is there Civil War

in the Tory party do weaning? Absolutely and it's only just

started. A bit of time for the quiz. Do you treble question, where is

David Cameron fleeing to this Easter?

Thank you for joining us. See you tomorrow at noon with the big

political stories of the day. Bye. ..and that's what

she felt with the blues. Most people can be oblivious

to what's going on around them,