06/10/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

Theresa May delivers her big conference speech

So do we know any more about the woman herself

and the direction she wants to take the country in?

And do Conservatives at their conference think we will be

richer or poorer after we leave the European Union?

We talk to two former spin doctors about life

at the top in Downing Street and whether the era of spin is over.

And after Diane James sensationally quit as Ukip

leader after just 18 days, we speak to one of the contenders

putting themselves forward to replace her.

All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole

of the programme today Tony Blair's former press supremo

Alastair Campbell, who's just released the fifth volume

Thank you. Don't sound too enthusiastic! Oh, I am.

Now, Theresa May is splashed on almost all the front pages -

all except Alastair's old paper, The Daily Mirror.

The Telegraph headline is: "It's time to remember the good

The Mail says: "We're coming after you!", in reference

to Mrs May's message to tax-avoiding multinationals and energy giants.

The Guardian declares that May has consigned Cameron to history.

And The Times headline says: "May takes centre stage

Well, someone who knows all about staking out the centre

Do you agree that she now owns that territory? Know, and I don't think

she should be allowed to either. I think a lot of what she said and

done since she took office and stood on the steps of Downing Street is at

odds with the sentence she set out then. I think it has been a very odd

week. Seeing Amber Rudd, who I was campaigning with during the

referendum campaign, coming out with that stuff about making foreign

companies list foreign workers. Jeremy Hunt trying to suggest if we

get rid of a few foreign doctors and get a few more Brits in there... I

thought it was becoming borderline and even crossing at times,

xenophobic. We will talk about that a little later on. In general she is

sort of parking her tanks on the lawn that people might have said

Tony Blair occupied, because there's no one elsewhere at the moment. Ukip

on the other side are in disarray. She has plenty of room to manoeuvre.

And I think what she was doing, there were parts of it... I know you

have Allister Heath coming on from the Telegraph later, I read his

column and he was talking about how she's trying to get too far over to

the left on business, but I think in other parts of it, the whole feel of

the week has felt like a Ukip tribute band. She's doing both, yes,

trying to park a tank on Labour's lawn but also Ukip, which is

difficult. Jeremy Corbyn has drawn criticism because we haven't heard

anything from him all week. There has been no counter argument put

forward by Labour, do you agree? Yes. Should he be more visible? It's

not just about the leadership of the Labour Party. Back in the day when I

was a journalist there was this thing where you give each party a

week to go for it. I think that has changed. I think it changed a while

ago. I think it did, and the reality is that conservatives are yet again,

looking at the headlines, you see the advantage of you have most of

the press ready to beat your Drogba. The Guardian saying she took the

underground... they said as she is trying to stake out the centre

ground, it's what you then do in terms of policy. That is when it

will get difficult. I think a lot of Tories who have kept quiet this

week, I think there are quite a lot of Tories are very unhappy with the

way Brexit is played out. We will talk about that as well, but we're

looking at the response of Labour to what has happened. Nothing from

Jeremy Corbyn, and MPs admitting she is, in terms of talk of fairness and

working people, the party of the workers, from a rhetoric stance...

You have to be careful. People can criticise new Labour and Tony Blair

all they want, but we set out a strategic course, new Labour,

modernisation, and we made sure the policy worked for that. I think with

Theresa May, she's pointing both ways at the moment. I've seen some

of the papers today say that we see what she stands for now, I'm still

not 100% sure what she stands for at all. Let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn.

What is your view of him and now, now he is back in power and the

leader again? He's not in power, he is leader of the Labour Party. Yes,

leader of the Labour Party. Is your objection to him one based on policy

or competence? I've always believed the policies and politics the Labour

Party has to pursue, to win power, which is a legitimate and necessary

aim, that you've always got to be in touch with the people who don't live

inside the political bubble, who do live in the centre ground. I worry

that an policy and on politics, and by that I mean this whole kind of...

The idea of turning the Labour Party within, wing against swing. But

these are your voters. He Griezmann ship. I know, but a lot of them

didn't vote for us. But there are people who are now fairly senior, in

terms of the direction of the Labour Party, who have been hostile. I

think an policy there are fundamental disagreements but I

think he's saying a lot of the right things. You think is a competence

issue? No. At the moment... I saw Kerry MacArthur give an interview

and she said I want to hear stuff you can't just sit on a T-shirt. The

same criticism of Theresa May, it's about policy. You all about slogan

politics as well. The conference should have been the time to set it

up. Owen Smith says he thinks Labour should be a centre-left party. Do

you agree with that? Yes. If you like the policies of Jeremy Corbyn,

surely you can work on the politics or competence and he could be a

future Prime Minister? He could, but the point I'm making to you is you

can't just... What I felt about the Labour Party conference, it felt

almost like it was operating inside its own bubble. It's about the

public in the end. Theresa May I don't think has put forward the

policy platform, and I think one she takes us down this Brexit path I

think she has all sorts of obstacles. For Labour, the Labour

Party, the Labour leadership seems to be defining itself as much

against labour as was, as the government doing all sorts of

things. Was Owen Smith the wrong candidate to go up against Jeremy

Corbyn? Give me an alternative. There were plenty of people to

choose from. But they didn't get nominations, you have to deal with

what you have. He lost an Jeremy won and now the Labour Party and PLP

have to make a decision about how they work with him, to try and take

us forward, at a time when people sense of vacuum and are worried

about what this government are doing.

The question for today is what has Jeremy Corbyn

Alastair Campbell says he knows the answer but will have to wait until

the end of the show to give it to us.

Conference season is a tough time for politicians,

their phalanxes of advisors and of course us political hacks -

the endless rounds of talks, press appearances, late nights

and, of course, cheap wine and terrible fried finger food.

And though everyone else might have a bit of a conference

hang over, and there's still the SNP's to go,

Theresa May and her kitchen cabinet haven't been indulging...

Instead they've been hard at work clearing out the Conservative policy

cupboards, and over the conference season they've detoxed the previous

administrations big ideas and introduced their

The first thing the government announced was their plan to be

Brexit ready by next year - promising to trigger

They also announced they'd blitz existing EU law

with a 'Great Repeal Bill' - turning European legislation

into British law so it can be sieved out by government.

Theresa May vowed she'd keep the UK out of the European Court

of Justice and wouldn't hand over any control on immigration,

signalling the Government's priorities in any negotiation over

Home Secretary Amber Rudd picked up on the immigration theme,

She said she wants firms to list all their foreign employees

The Government was also keen to bulk up

it's fibre content - pledging ?3 billion

for a Home Building Fund, though not all of that is new money.

And of course, the Government has done it's best

to cater for fussy eaters in education - repeating it's mantra

to allow more selection of pupils with new grammar schools.

Although it's not a medical concept, the Government doesn't want

you to detox without medical supervision - Jeremy Hunt has

announced an additional 1500 doctor training places per year, and called

for less reliance on foreign staff in the NHS.

Chancellor Hammond has warned about overdoing it. He's Paul George

Osborne's promise to get rid of the deficit by 2020 down the sink.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng.

Let's talk about the announcements on foreign workers, are you happy

with their approach and tone? You have to remember it is not as

radical as people are saying. Some elements of the media very excited

about it. Listing foreign workers is something that happens in the US.

The policy referred to non-EU migrants, not EU migrants. It's not

as controversial policy as... Are you happy with naming and shaming

companies who employ too many foreigners, making a distinction

between British-born workers and foreign workers? Are you comfortable

with it? I think there is not a problem with saying... It doesn't

cross the line? It was your own Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who

said British jobs for British workers. It's so interesting now to

see people like Alastair, defenders of Gordon Brown, saying this is the

most extraordinary policy. I think it's totally legitimate in the light

of the Brexit vote, finding employment for people in Britain. He

coined the phrase, British jobs for British people. Ed Miliband went

even further. It is totally unfair to say with shock and horror that

this is patently xenophobic. If you get the next volume of my diaries...

I think you'll find I wasn't very happy about British jobs for British

people. Because I thought that was then... The thing about this debate

about immigration, and this does come through both in the last few

years... We recognise the growing political problem and struggle with

the solutions. I think once you locate the solutions in angry,

divisive rhetoric, as opposed to policy that might work, I think it

gets very... I you're right, there is a party platform at the party

conference, but also a legitimate look at the policy. You said

yourself both parties in government have failed to really address this

issue. We want to reduce the numbers and if you are going to reduce the

numbers are not serious about that, you have to look at interesting and

very tough policies. You do accept the numbers have to be reduced?

We'll do. Do they? A large a majority of the Conservative Party.

You talk about the policy solutions... Would those policies,

for instance having fewer foreign doctors, being self-sufficient with

British doctors, will that help or hinder our NHS? I think it can help

it. How? There will be tension between freedom of movement and

economic growth. If you wanted economic growth regardless of

freedom of movement, this country could have a population of 100

million. But as a politician you can't responsibly accept that. You

have to have some sort of degree of control. What we have learned over

the last ten years, look at Europe, there are far white parties growing

in Europe because of this issue and is absolutely responsible, the right

thing for the government to do, to look at this issue and try and

restrict... -- far right parties. Is that the solution? Is it about the

number of foreign doctors, or doctors where ever they come from,

or is it a funding shortfall? I think both elements are important.

Funding is obviously important for the NHS, but also an issue in terms

of giving opportunities for people in Britain to contribute to British

society. There is no real social benefit, I think, to importing

hundreds of thousands of people every single year and displacing

people who are home-grown people. What is wrong with that, what is

xenophobic about that? What I said was xenophobic is day by day through

the conference week, that there was a clear and deliberate effort with

Amber Rudd and the Prime Minister herself to make this sort of theme

for the conference. Without bringing forward policy. I don't think this

foreign workers thing will happen, it was all part of the positioning.

I think with the health Jeremy Hunt has also awful lot on his plate and

he could have made the biggest use of it for as conference but he

focused on this narrow point. I was hospital a couple of years ago, I

came back from the Balkans and had dysentery. I tell you, if you pushed

out... Let me tell you. They are saying they want to develop

home-grown doctors. That's fine, they can do that anyway, it's a fact

they're trying to pit them against doctors who are already there. Camp

Nou so this is more about rhetoric -- can you say this is more about

rhetoric, I think there will be some attempt to bring about policies.

That's what governmentdo. I think getting, training new doctors is a

good thing to do, they could've done that anyway. Low skilled workers.

Theresa May said I know a lot of people don't like to admit this,

someone who finds themselves out of work what an low wages because of

low skilled immigration. Is that absolutely true?

There is an issue. But is it actually true? I speak to people who

are builders all the time and they will tell you, and you have probably

had the same conversations, they haven't had a weight increase in 15

years. Part of the reason is we are importing low skilled people who are

doing those jobs, that's a fact. We wouldn't import them if they weren't

keeping wages down. Even Ed Miliband admitted this as a reality, so for

Labour to shy away and point the finger and say these are issues that

aren't actually going to solve... I think the and contempt of wages is a

real issue, minimum wage, living wage, these are designed to help the

people break the law. What we have to be careful about, which is why

others borrowed about the tone of the whole, is making process

emotions without really sitting at the reality about how big a problem

is. I do worry, particularly if you think about, the country was very

divided with the set vote, and the message from Theresa May is, it's

not divided all -- with the Brexit vote. It wasn't that clear, it was

very complicated. I think she should be doing more to unite, she's making

the same mistake David Cameron. He think that is to binary? She also

sees a greater role, that's it as one of the more interesting things

about her speech in terms of good government, people were surprised to

hear that from a Tory Prime Minister. Is that something you

would support? Of course, a referendum, we don't have often in

this country, there is a reason, they are binary, it's a yes or no

answer and you will get 52, 48, it could have gone the other way and

that's a difficult position for any government to be in but I think she

has the fantastic job in trying to project steady government, mature

government, she's a national figure. Her polling is strong on this. But

do you embrace this side of her, this state intervention, good

government? The plant she is try to make and has made effectively is

they were people who felt left out, we have two little the Brexit vote

and say, there are people for whom this economy isn't working, and she

says she will make an economy work for everyone. That means some more

government legislation looking at workers' rights, looking at things,

education... The conversations I have had it with you in the past,

you would not have supported that. I tend to be more on the free market

side of things, that we have to look at the proposals as they come. I

think the government has made a good start, she has admitted what a lot

of people on your side haven't acknowledged, but there is a

disconnect between the Metropolitan elite and the country. You and I are

members of it. The Tory party has been presenting itself as the party

of the working classes, we're putting up straw men here. The thing

about picketers, that you only patriotic if you follow this mission

that Theresa May sets out for what Britain is, is nonsense. I thought

she has done a good job of protecting herself at a national

leader. That's a different thing. I also signed up to abandoning the

deficit reduction plan or reaching a surplus? I am a deficit hawk but I

came into Parliament in 2010, and we said we would eliminate it in five

years and we missed all those targets. So you have converted on

that? Hammond has a moral realist approach, committee wants to reduce

the deficit but there is no point having targets you miss every year.

Like the immigration target. Or the NHS target. You have two stick to it

and that's what the Chancellor has recognised.

Now, Brexit has been the hot topic of this party conference season.

But what did the delegates at the Conservative conference think

the outlook for the UK economy will be in a post-Brexit Britain?

We sent our Adam out with his balls to ask them.

Will dissolving the UK's marriage with the EU leave the country

I think richer in the long-term, but there's a lot of challenges

I think there will be some people who are a little bit better off

A quick question, aren't you at the wrong conference?

I get a better welcome here, than I do at the Labour Party one.

Just having our own seat at the top table again.

I think we won't notice it this early on, but eventually

Because we haven't left yet, so we don't know yet.

Why do you think it will lead to us benig poorer?

I don't think we're going to negotiate the right deal.

If we get that fair immigration system, which is basically that

anyone either from Europe or outside of Europe coming to Britain with no

discrimination based on colour of passport,

it's going to make us richer, a better workforce.

Absolutely, I have no doubt about it.

I think in the long-term we''ill be richer, but there may be

Is the turbulence a price worth paying?

Andrea, you're going to love the question today.

Will Brexit leave us richer or poorer?

Oh, she's not denying it would leave us poorer.

Is that how we interpret that silence?

Owen, is Brexit going to leave us richer or poorer?

What do think Andrew Mitchell will vote?

I think Andrew Mitchell will vote richer...

We've seen the country before, we're old enough to remember it

We weren't very rich in the 1950s, were we?

We had a good life, even though we were children then.

I'd say probably slightly on the poorer side.

Because it will take as a bit of time to get back into it.

Is Britain going to be richer or poorer as a result of Brexit?

Don't you want to answer that question?

He's got time to do a selfie, but not time for the moodbox, sad!

There we go, which when will he go for?

I just think culturally it's going to be a big mistake,

to have left and make ourselves more isolated from the rest of the EU.

There we go, the last moodbox at the Tory conference and it's

a whopping majority that thinks Britain will be

richer as a result of Brexit.

A clear majority, you agree with them? Completely. I was just reading

a guy for coming on the show, the head of the German industrial... He

said that within three to five years, Britain will be richer, doing

better than the rest of Europe. That's a German businessman! But,

beyond that, do you think that's true or will it take longer? I think

the economy can adjust quickly, we will have different trading patterns

and a relationship with the EU, no one is saying we can't draw up...

Sure. But broadly, we will have more control, more flexible economy...

And that will make us richer in the long term. You have mentioned him,

but there are big employers, Nissan, Jaguar, risks to jobs. Are they

wrong? They are producers, they make things in this country and have a

vested interest in the status quo, absolutely. I would expect them at

the beginning of negotiations to set out their stall and say these are

the dangers. They expect access to the single market. But we're talking

about membership to the single market, Theresa May has said we

can't have it, you can still have access... The thing is we don't

know. I'd also, I think having triggered said she's going to

trigger Article 50, that is when the tough stuff is going to start. Is

this you doing Project Fear again, warning about the economy taking a

downturn? It's about warning what I think is going to happen, the

European Union will see us now... It's not a divorce commits a

resignation, we have decided to leave. Is it a threat from them? It

matters much worse than it does to them. We are about a six of the

whole economy of them. There is no point in them having a

retaliatory... It doesn't have to be forced to take years and years to

get the trade deals we need. I wasn't in favour of the euro, I was

of the EU. Tony Blair. He told us it wouldn't be a disaster if we didn't

join. Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, repeated the Treasury

forecast that was done during the referendum campaign of a 4% hit

overtime to GDP. He repeated it again this week. Is he right? I

don't believe these scare stories. The Chancellor is scaring people? I

don't know what his particular position was. We had a lot of data

from the Treasury, the punishment budget, that had a Treasury thing...

And that hasn't happened? It was completely. Wrong. What Philip

Hammond was doing, I find it incredible that I was looking at him

and thinking, seems to be a voice of almost reason... He is the

Chancellor, looking at the state of the whole time. And the idea... The

trouble is, we have a media which has a sense of everything is going

to be wonderful, they want to be proven right so they pick on every

bit of data... So does your side. My point is, the big, difficult stuff,

is yet to come. It's going to come when these companies to make their

hard-headed decisions and the idea that they are all going to say,

that's fine would have access to the single market, don't have to worry

about freedom of movement... We're going to face the got choices. You

talked about Philip Hammond being the voice of sanity, but the same

voices were warning of apocalyptic economic downturn, that was wrong,

wasn't it? I don't accept that, it hasn't even begun. These deposits it

would be a recession in 2016. Thankfully that hasn't happened. We

are still in 2016. I don't... I don't think there will be a

recession. Cameron and Osborne said it. I said, there still believe,

that leaving the European Union will damage as politically and economic

Lee and culturally. And you would be wrong. Can we agree that we won't

really know until Article 50 is triggered in March and then we might

have a clearer idea. It'll take years. So it will take years to take

the trade deal? Who don't even know what skin to happen in five, ten, 40

years. -- that's going to happen. The longer time goes on, a lot of

your doom mongering will be proved wrong. And the newspapers will say

that Brexit, blaming Britain is the going strong. Used to work in the

newspapers! I am out of it, thank God!

Ukip's immigration spokesman who announced he would be running for

the leadership of the party, there will be a contest, has this morning

collapsed in the European Parliament in Strasbourg. The ten out our

political correspondent. Tell us what's gone on. This is a developing

story, we note the first reports came in half an hour ago that

Stephen will first left about in the European Parliament in Strasbourg,

currently sitting, he collapsed. We have confirmation from a Ukip

spokesperson that he was taken ill suddenly in Strasbourg and has been

taken to hospital for tests. We haven't got any more information

about the severity of this incident, no further update on his health but

as you might imagine, other MEPs and Ukip colleagues are putting their

support for him. Their rivals in that leadership contest I wish him

the best for his recovery. He was doing the media rounds yesterday

when he announced he would be a candidate in this leadership race,

saying he was the first went put his name forward now that the contest

will be rerun following the unexpected resignation of Diane

James, now this latest element that he has been taken ill, very scant

details at the moment. I suppose the leadership contest at

the moment will be put on hold old until we know about Steven Woolfe's

position? The only other candidate so far to declare he will be

standing is Raheem Cassandra. He said out of respect for Steven

Woolfe at this stage you won't continue with media appearances

until the situation becomes clearer. The board across Ukip, there seems

to be broad support for Steven Woolfe, who is a very well-known

character in Ukip, is a man who has been their immigration spokesman and

an MP in Parliament. People wishing him the best and hoping he gets

well, but this seems like it will bring about a pause in campaigning.

Thank you for updating us. We were hoping to speak to Raheem Kassam,

who was also going to stand for the leadership, but no more media

appearances at the moment as it is not appropriate, bearing in mind

Steven Woolfe's position. Now, as well as attacking

the "socialist left" in her speech, Theresa May also rejected

the ideology of the Unsurprisingly, it hasn't gone down

too well with everyone on the right. Let's have a listen

to what she had to say. It's time to remember the good

that government can do. Time for a new approach that says

while government doesn't have all the answers,

government can and should be That the state exists to provide

what individual people, communities and markets cannot,

and that we should employ the power of government

for the good of the people. Time to reject the ideological

templates provided by the socialist left and the libertarian right,

and to embrace a new centre ground in which government

steps up and not back, Joining us now is the Deputy Editor

of the Daily Telegraph, Proud libertarian I would say. Your

view has been rejected by Theresa May. Yes, that's the point I made in

the piece today. I think for years the Conservative Party has been

moving away from the ideas of Thatcherism and Reagan. What she did

yesterday, I think, was quite important. It was an official

rejection of that world view. It's building on what happened in the

past, building on what happened under that coalition, but more

comprehensive and more explicit than anything I've ever heard before from

a Tory leader. In many ways... A worldview Lord Heseltine would have

embraced. It's about an industrial policy, about the state doing things

I'm trying... That's because she feels she is right about it, more in

tune with public sentiment, that actually people like you who are

supportive of bankers and big business, rightly or wrongly, global

elites, which motivated many people to vote for Brexit are completely

out of fashion and people feel have done a lot of harm? Like Brexit, of

course. But that's the conundrum, isn't it? It is a conundrum, yes.

And a lot of people think that. But we shouldn't forget the biggest

group of Brexit voters were Tory voters, something like 60% of Tory

voters voted for Brexit. Of course a lot of Labour voters did and Ukip

voters and former Labour voters, but it's wrong to see Brexit purely as a

populist rejection of globalisation. It's not that. Some aspects were

that but some weren't. People like myself, free marketeers, rejected it

for completely different reasons. As deregulation not failed in the eyes

of many people. I disagree with that. There has been a massive

productivity problem, stagnant wages, I think the answers are not

state intervention, there are about finding market solutions to these

problems, finding conservative solutions to these problems. The

sort of solutions that shall all Reagan would have found. It does

show because the ideas I like on the way, I hope it won't last. Are you

happy Allister Heath is out on a limb, isolated on mainstream

politics and the Tories, the Conservatives are occupying good

government, state intervention, all the things Labour leaders have long

since loved? I think you are slightly overdoing the doom and

gloom from your side of the argument. I think what you saw

yesterday was Theresa May feeling under competing pressure. Her speech

reflected the same backdrop as Jeremy Corbyn's. Essentially saying

the public feel that the crash, those who caused the crash have kind

of got away with it. Don't you think that's true? I do think that's true,

I think that's what fuels a lot of the anti-politics, anti-government,

anti-business feeling. I think where she has to be very careful is where

she ends up... Once you are the Prime Minister, you can't sort of be

all things to all men and women repeatedly. Yesterday a little bit

for Labour voters, a little bit for Ukip voters... I don't think she's

as committed. Does that reassure you? I am a very optimistic person!

One of the key points to me is this, we are going to have Brexit. I'm

very happy we will have Brexit. I think Theresa May will try to

negotiate the best settlement. So the opportunities of Brexit to be

realised, you need a very competitive economy, free market

reform and attract capital. That is key. The Prime Minister and

government needs to remember that. Bashing business all but I'm calling

for greater state intervention and same businessmen created all of

this... It was a more popular speech I expected. On the conundrum I was

speaking about, isn't that the problem? Who wanted to remain said

there are two types of Brexit, people like you who believe in more

globalisation, deregulation and the power of the free market, and many

people who voted for the opposite but still for Brexit. How will she

be able to marry those? The remains I'd also had people who love the EU.

Referendum is about coalitions, you had two coalitions. Of course it is

quite difficult to reconcile those two, but what she needs to do is

create an economic success story. She needs growth, jobs, investment,

rising wages. If you start to achieve these kinds of things and a

more democratic and reject certain aspects of the old elite rule, I

think you can make some leeway and start to grow your share of the

vote. I think she could get over 40% of the vote, in theory at least,

with those policies. I don't think she needs to engage in a wholesale

rejection of Thatcherism. Labour has to be careful about bashing bankers

and business, that was Ed Miliband's problem before Jeremy Corbyn, being

seen as the anti-business party. You do have to tread a fine line if

you're going to blame the people responsible for the crash? The worst

thing for recent years for me in politics is the Conservatives

managed to pin the causes of the economic crash on Labour and labour

ventilated that attack rather than challenged it. I think this

discussion shows the difficulties she has, in terms of where she will

position herself strategically and politically going forward. I don't

think she has rejected a fairly right-wing approach to the economy.

I think she's talking the talk of the centre ground, but we will see

what sort of policies come forward. You will have to wait and see. Thank

you. Alastair, this one, joined us today to launch the next instalment

about the final one of his diaries, following his departure from Downing

Street as Tony Blair's director of communications.

Yet his is not the only book written by a former 'Spin Doctor' to hit

Craig Oliver became David Cameron's press man in 2011 and has

just published his book 'Unleashing Demons:

Before we chat to the two of them, let's look back

# Now what you going to do when you're caught

# And who's going to tell 'em that you won't when you probably will?

# Who's the only man can make you look like you're nearly

# Somebody better get me a spin doctor.

# Somebody won't you call me a spin doctor.

# Napoleon wasn't short, he was only of diminished size.

# The Krays loved their Mother and a politician never lies.

# If perception leaves a nasty stain he can make you white again.

# He's a master of illusion turning dirty water into wine.

# Somebody better get me a spin doctor.

# Somebody won't you call me a spin doctor.

# I know when I'm wrong that he'll make it right.

# My image is short, don't wanna drown in this sleaze.

And that man you saw there, following David Cameron around

and leaving Downing Street, joins us now in the studio.

Welcome. Hello. In strategy terms, do you stand by everything you did

during the referendum campaign? Not at all, we made some mistakes and

the book is very clear about that. Some serious mistakes and we need to

take responsibility for them. You made bloodcurdling predictions in

what would happen in the immediate aftermath of what would happen in

the result of a vote to leave, a recession, drop in house prices,

they were mistakes? I don't accept we said immediately afterwards, we

said when we left it the EU. We are still members of the EU on the same

terms as the 23rd of June. You think it could still happen? I think there

could be problems for the economy going forward. There is an industry

at the moment saying everything is fine with the economy at the moment.

We have seen the currency drop dramatically, growth forecasts for

next year downgraded dramatically. The Chancellor of the Exchequer

saying he's going to reset fiscal policy, which sounds like more

borrowing. So decided that the economy is all fine I think is a

little far-fetched. You are still predicting Project Fear, as was

called... I'm not. It is. I'm simply saying. You're saying these things

could still happen in March when we invoke Article 50. I'm saying it's

hard to find a respected economist who don't think it's going to be a

bumpy economy here for the next three years. You were involved in

the campaign, would you do things differently? Less of it will be a

nightmare if we leave Basra might a campaign needs three things. A sense

of where you are going to go forward, you need to attack your

opponents. I felt there should have been more attacking of the opponents

and Boris Johnson got away with murder in that campaign and still

is, to be frank. This off to Turkey to say we now support Turkey joining

the EU... I'm afraid I agree with Craig, I'm not at all complacent

about what is going to happen to Britain and the British economy once

this economy is seen through. You failed and we have yet to see the

result. In terms of attacking opponents, you were prepping Angela

Eagle ahead of the debate with Boris Johnson and Amber Rudd attacked

Boris Johnson but it didn't work? The vote was lost. You don't know

the impact... That style didn't work in the end. The style both of you

seemed to back in that campaign. You need two things. It made people had

in their view against being told by the establishment. I'm totally

confused by the questioning. On one hand you said we didn't attack and

another you said we did. I think I can have my cake and eat it. People

said they didn't want to trust experts, they didn't want to be told

what to do by the elite. I think that was one of the worst parts of

the campaign, the idea that people who know what they're talked about

-- talking about should be derided and ignored... It's absurd. You

lost. Exactly. You reveal it in the book David Cameron refused a

conversation by the general director of the BBC, and also put pressure on

the Corporation over its coverage of the referendum. Is that an abuse of

power? Absolutely not. Tony Hall, the director-general of the BBC,

asked for a conversation with the Prime Minister about charter

renewal. Perfectly legitimate for him to do that. The BBC is an

important organisation in the country and legitimate for him to

make his point. It is legitimate for a Prime Minister to say he is

concerned about some aspects of BBC coverage, and by the way, he was

absolutely right. Too often BBC coverage, particularly regarding

economics, mistook balance for impartiality. And put pressure on

the BBC to address that? It was a concern, he the economics editor of

the BBC... Business opinion in this country was split, it was, and that

he was also making clear that when a few economists came on and made one

point, that somehow there was an equivalence there. That was a

problem on an issue the BBC struggled with. And they admitted

it. It was about the timing. Was it right to link that to conversation

about charter renewal? Tony Hall, the director-general of

the BBC, asked for and received a conversation with the PM in order to

lobby him about the charter. That is perfectly legitimate. And you used

that as an opportunity to talk about concerns he had about coverage.

People will think that and say that was undue leverage... Should have

waited and had another meeting and of. This is nonsense. The idea you

aren't allowed to race concerned, it's what happens in discussion. I

didn't say that particular content, it's about linking it to charter

renewal. He asked for the conversation. He then moved on to

other subject. I think it is utter nonsense to say they were linked to

charter renewal. By the way the BBC got an amazing deal. 11 years, with

inflation busting terms. The idea that they were put under the

screw... Let's just stick to what was seen by some as potential abuse

of power. There was a chap you employed in 2014 who was

investigating the Lamela's expenses using her links to the Levenson

enquiry, is that fair? Totally unfair. I am surprised you're

bringing that up. The Today programme had to issue a statement

making clear that if anybody repeated that libel, it would be

wrong, and within minutes of that interview, I did not put any undue

pressure on the Daily Telegraph and it is wrong with you to suggest I

did. So you completely and utterly say that none of that was linked to

either charter renewal of the BBC all the Levenson enquiry's coverage?

Of course, what is being suggested is that somehow I was suggesting

that if they didn't investigate Maria Miller, we would have an

influence on an independent judge, not true in any way. I have been

very clear about that. Nobody has come back after I cleared that up

and I am slightly surprised you would raise that now. Well, I have

raised it in your surprise. Let's talk about the inner of spin. It

seems that the reason may is trying to give the impression that Spain is

over, the sort of spin that you and to some extent Craig, indulged in.

You agree? Know. I think we have seen a hell of a lot of spin this

week. But I define is where you set out a message, we're going to take

the centre ground and you put out policies, that are like the rise and

Ukip. So you you have to communicate... In terms of trust,

the accusation has been levelled at you continually that because of the

era of spin, you saw trust in politicians and media operations, it

has died. Well, this excellent poem begins... I have had to put the

mixture each other. It begins with the Hutton enquiry. If the media,

large parts of it, only ever say one side of the story, at that was a

situation where... Having a go at at great... You have tried to control

the media! I tried to make sure our message was understood that the

public and unit resented the fact that we did it so successfully. This

starts off with the BBC in a state of collapse because he did not apply

even basic rigour to a piece of reporting which should never have

happened. People can read the diaries... You say, and all of us

continually say things, if you only ever get one side of the story, do

not surprised if the public believe one thing. I don't think anyone

could say we have only had one side of the story. Even John McDonnell,

was not a close friend of yours, had this to say to you.

I think it's a disaster for the Labour Party.

Because you are the person above all else who created a

political environment where no one believed a word a politician said.

You lost us 5 million votes in that process and set us up to fail.

The reason Jeremy was elected was because they wanted some

Look, John, I have come on here tonight to be nice

And I tell you why, because I care about

I really care about the Labour Party, and I worry

that you and yours are destroying it.

And what's more, I actually worry you don't even care.

We're trying to restore honesty and confidence in politics again,

All the Labour Party! What do you say to that? You chastise me for

continually going on about it but that is because that is how people

feel. Some people do! And as I said to him that day, I understand why

the media, particularly the right wing media, go on about new Labour,

and by the Tories do it... Let me finish the sentence if I may! I set

the John McDonnell for the Labour Party to trash the record of the

Labour Party is not only wrong, it is strategically stupid. What I said

to him and I will keep saying to him, is that until they understand

why we won elections in this period, even after the Iraq war, they will

not gain in a position where they might win again. You agree with him

about thats in terms of winning elections. In the end the PR machine

was part of it. You say you want elections. By doing strategy

properly and having proper communications. What about the

erosion of trust that people now feel they have lost that in

politicians? You feel part of that? Politics definitely has a part to

play in this and so does the media. You all here to talk about you. I

am, we can have an interesting discussion here about the impact of

persistently behaving in a certain way for politics and the media. Or

you can simply say, J at number ten, you were just trying to set the

agenda, you are terrible pantomime villains, we have no responsibility

at all. That's what I find depressing talk to journalists

sometimes, if it was an honest and open discussion about how sometimes

they make mistakes, just as we in politics too. I think the media is

under that scrutiny. But where is it? You make that statement, where

is it, can you give me an example. No, we have run out of time!

We've just received a statement from interim

Ukip Leader Nigel Farage regarding the situation

Mr Farage said: "I deeply regret that following an altercation that

took place at a meeting of Ukip MEPs this morning, that Steven Woolfe

subsequently collapsed and was taken to hospital.

Party insiders have also told The Daily Telegraph that Mr Woolfe

was punched by a Ukip colleague - that detail has not been confirmed.

Rail commuters across Surrey, Sussex, Kent and Hampshire have

seen travel chaos over the past few weeks.

Southern Rail staff have been striking, following proposed changes

The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers' union, or RMT,

has been threatening further industrial action.

With fresh walkouts due to start next week, the RMT has been locked

in talks with Southern's parent company, Govia Thameslink Railway.

Our correspondent Marc Ashdown is outside the talks in central

No sign of a deal just yet. They have been here since ten a.m., a few

cigarette breaks but that is the only sign of any white smoke from

this building. The fact they are still in there after three hours,

some will see as good news, such as been the animosity surrounding this

dispute. The last we heard, the RMT put forward a set of proposals that

they would agree to, Seven went away to look at those, as far as we know

the two sides are still talking. These peace talks, aimed at trade to

avert a fresh round of strikes, this is all about who closes the doors on

those Southern rail services that serve most of southern England, into

London. The Garter Ball was closed doors, historically, seven Roman to

the service and once the drivers to do that, the RMT say it has safety

indications. In the middle of all this, passengers, commuters are

suffering because of these disputes. We are now joined in

the studio by Mick Lynch, Assistant General Secretary

of the Rail, Maritime I have just come from the talks, it

has nothing to do with closing the doors, it's about the safety

critical role of the guards. We have put a set of proposals to the

company that will settle this dispute if they want to pick it up.

And what's your impression so far? Our impression is they are thinking

about it, if they want to come to sensible position, they will take

forward we have said. We have given the concessions that would deal with

all the things they want and we'll deal with the things we need. You

have rejected the proposal? Their proposal is they will sack and that

if we don't accept everything they have put forward. What have they put

forward? They have put forward that the safety critical role of the

guard is removed immediately. There are 35 different competencies that a

guard carries out, look at the Watford accident last week, the

guard if they could all the passengers, co-ordinated emergency

services, nothing to do with doors. That was a train in a tunnel. You

have rejected the offer they have put on the table and put forward a

counter offer? We have put forward a counter offer which is positive.

We're not interested in money, we never wanted money, we have never

asked for money, we told them they don't want their money. Do you think

there's a backlash against this now, bearing in mind the destruction that

has gone on for commuters? There is a backlash against this company,

they have launched a disastrous PR campaign, they are proposing to

spend ?1.5 million on this dispute, the put a backlash against them is

phenomenal, Everton they open their mouths, they put their foot in it.

They want to get around the table and get to a reasonable settlement.

So are you optimistic they will be a deal and this 14 days of strikes

will be avoided? I don't want to clear the picture that I'm never

that of the mystic because they are being driven by the DFT, Peter

Wilkinson has publicly they want to smash the RMT -- I am that

optimistic. The compromise on our side is that we have dealt with the

offer to migrate people to the new grade, offered to have a new train

dispatch procedure and to give them method of competencies without

costing them any money, that will secure disabled people, the

vulnerable, having access to the trains and assistance at all times.

This has caused unbelievable disruption over a long period of

time, what needs to happen? I don't know enough about what is going on,

but something I've always thought about the way we cover industrial

disputes in this country, they just tend to become a scene in the

reporting of this issue, a real focus upon these guys as the bad

guys. That is not true on this programme. That was a direct lift

from their press release, but opening and closing doors, there was

a fire on a training of Wales yesterday, landslip and a crash in a

tunnel and a guard took care of that. The reason they will help you

now! Now I know what you're thinking -

hasn't it been ages since we had There's just time before we go

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question for today is what has

Jeremy Corbyn been buying this week? Mr Corbyn was walking Hadrian's wall

- and stopped off to buy his wife That's all for today.

Thanks to our guests. Andrew will be BBC One

tonight at 11.45 with Michael Portillo,

Liz Kendall, John Pienaar, I'll be here at noon

tomorrow with all the big