28/11/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

The new leader of the UK Independence Party with 9622 votes,

62.6% of the vote, Paul Nuttall. Paul Nuttall has been elected

the new leader of Ukip. After a tumultuous few months,

can he bring the fractious Theresa May has admitted that Brexit

keeps her awake at night. Could another attempt to get

the courts to scupper her plans, be about to contribute

to her insomnia? Could forcing firms to reveal

the gap between the highest and lowest paid employees be

the answer to corporate # I didn't sell out

I didn't give in And political songs slug it out

to become Christmas number one. But which Jeremy Corbyn-inspired

single will make it? And with us for the whole

of the programme today is the Conservative MP and former

Work and Pensions Secretary, And the Labour MP and former

Shadow Cabinet Minister, Lisa Nandy. First, is a new legal

challenge about to be launched that will put obstacles

in the way of Theresa Lawyers are arguing that June's vote

may have mandated our withdrawal from the European Union,

but not a lesser-known organisation Theresa May has admitted that

decisions over Brexit and this is just latest nightmare

to disturb her sleep. Mark Carney, the Governor

of the Bank of England, continues to haunt the Prime

Minister after calling for a transitional period of two

years to delay Britain's departure 80 Conservative MPs will today

demand both EU residents in the UK and UK residents in the EU has given

reciprocal rights following Brexit, saying people are not bargaining

chips. Three of her more regular tormentors, Anna Soubry, Nick Clegg

and Chuka Umunna joined forces this morning, saying British industry

would be harmed by sector by sector free trade agreement instead of

staying in the single market. And Theresa May has

a fresh nightmare today with British Influence-backed lawyer

Jolyon Maugham arguing that leaving the EU will not automatically mean

leaving the European Economic Area - threatening to take the government

back to court if it tries But will she be given any comfort

today by her Polish counterpart, Beata Szydlo, who is meeting

Theresa May at Downing Street. She says Poland will be

a constructive partner to the UK and calls for a good compromise

with the EU for Britain. Brexit may well be disturbing

Jeremy Corbyn's sleep too. Yesterday, Shadow Foreign Secretary

Emily Thornberry refused to rule out a second referendum on whatever

Brexit deal emerged - a position apparently at odds

with her Shadow Cabinet colleagues. And this morning Labour backbencher

Dan Jarvis has said that any perceived failure to accept

the voters' verdict on Brexit and immigration would act

as a toxic mix for Labour. We're joined now by the former

Northern Ireland Secretary and Leave campaigner,

Theresa Villiers. Welcome. The referendum ballot paper

asked people whether to stay in the EU, not the EEA. These lawyers have

a right to say you have no mandate to take as out of the EEA and by

definition the single market? And we are only in the EEA because we are a

member of the EU, article two C of the EEA agreement makes it clear. I

think the court proceedings will be dismissed because once we leave the

EU we automatically ceased to be members of the EEA. You can be a

member of the European free trade area without being a member of the

EU, so don't the lawyers have a right to say if you want to

underline that departure from the EEA, you would have to do it through

Parliament? I believe this court case is another way to try to

overturn the result and to muddy the waters, to delay things. Even in the

worst-case scenario they turned out to be right and got it to the

Supreme Court, the worst-case scenario would be Parliament would

have to vote, in which case Parliament should get on and vote

because that is the way to respect the result. Is it just an to prolong

what they see as agony? Legal action has been launched by an organisation

I had not heard of called British Influence, which sounds as if it

should be vaguely pro-British but it is an organisation that promotes the

European Union. They are trying to basically find a legal route to slow

down or block Brexit. I do not think it changes the big picture, we are

coming out and if we have to do a separate instrument through

Parliament to technically get us out of the EEA, so be it. You would not

support is staying in the economic area because you know the argument

then would-be it would perhaps allow us to stay in the single market and

give us access many would like to keep? I do not think staying in the

EEA is consistent with what people voted for on the 23rd of June, which

was to leave the EU, for a return of sovereignty and for British law to

be superior to the law of the EU. Do you agree? Part of the difficulty is

apart from the fact we know Britain voted by a majority to leave the

European Union, we don't know what people were actually voting for or

what it looks like and one reason the mess has ended up again in the

courts is because we have not had clarity from the government about

the shape of the Brexit deal. The way we should resolve this is have

the debate in Parliament and with the public. We have accepted we are

leaving, and five months after the vote, it beggars belief we have not

made progress towards what that is. It will be held up as Lisa Nandy

says, it will be potentially held up in the courts and the government has

lost one case and it is going to the Supreme Court. Are you filled with

confidence the government would win a second case on this argument about

coming out of the European economic area? I am confident and it is clear

the government would win the case. The important thing is to make

progress on the negotiations and that will start once Article 50 is

tabled. If the government has to introduce separate legislation in

the way you conceded, in your case the worst-case scenario, they would

have to repeal article 120 seven. Would MPs feel bound to vote the

same way as with Article 50, all would they think twice? It makes for

a more varied debate and there would be a diverse range of opinions

expressed in Pollio. People need to listen to constituents and what they

felt people voted for. I was on the Remains side, campaigning against

this, but I have recognise what people were fundamentally voting

for, and the phrase take back control, the most powerful phrase

anyone spoke in the campaign, that is about sovereignty and about

saying British laws will be made in Parliament and will not be

counteracted by the European Court of Justice, it is about showing

voters immigration policy is made within our shores, not in Brussels.

If people want those things it is not consistent with staying in the

EEA. If we remain in the EEA, do you agree the UK cannot take back

control? I disagree with what Stephen Crabb said about taking back

control. That became, it somehow captured the mood of people in

constituencies like mine, but it was for the constituents I spoke to

during the campaign about wanting to see real power over things that

matter, whether recent quality work, time to spend with your family,

being able to make decisions about local services. Part of the trouble

is we had the referendum without real thought given by the government

as to what comes next and suddenly we are in a studio in London trying

to define what people meant all over the country, and we should have had

that debate from the beginning. We will come back to that shortly,

particularly the idea if we stayed in the EEA we would have to pay

contributions to budgets and would have to have freedom of movement.

Now, Ukip has a new leader - its second new leader

Congratulations on your victory, pulled muscle. Why do you think

members backed you over your rivals? Because I have not just talked the

talk, I have walked the walk, been in the party 12 years and I am the

most experienced candidate, having been chairman and head of policy,

deputy leader six years and the party realises it has to come

together and unify and stay on the pitch and hold the government's feet

to the fire on Brexit and that is why I have the biggest mandate in

the history of the party. Was it a fair contest? One of your fellow

candidates, John Rees-Evans, said on this programme the election process

has been compromised and alleged party officials may have misused

databases to promote their favoured candidate, what do you say to him?

That is not something I witness. The last leadership election, there were

100 complaints and this election, apparently ten. It is minuscule. I

think the election has been good-humoured and fair and precisely

what Ukip has needed. The last thing Ukip would have needed is an

election that involved in fighting and whatnot. We had a good-humoured

contest and now we can move on. The party was so busy involved in months

of chaotic infighting, how are you going to deal with that? I have

never been part of any faction in the party, I generally get along

with everyone. What happens the other month, in Strasbourg, when we

had the altercation between two MEPs was probably the best thing that

happened because everybody woke up, smelt the coffee and understood it

was an existential crisis and it was my duty to step in, stand in this

election, win it and bring the party together. One way you can bring the

party together after difficult months is by the people you put on

your team. You have your pointed? I have appointed Peter Whittle, the

London Assembly member as deputy. I have appointed subject to approval

Paul Oakden, party chairman, who has steered the ship brilliantly over

the summer during these difficult months and I have appointed Patrick

O'Flynn as senior political adviser and within the next 72 hours there

will be appointments of party officers and spokespeople. I will

hit the ground running. I know the party inside out and it will not be

a problem. Not the most diverse group of people you have mentioned

there, but what about Suzanne Evans, who also ran through leadership, why

did you not give her something? If you hold your horses and wait, there

will be an announcement regarding Suzanne Evans tomorrow. As I said at

the hustings I will build a team of all talents and Suzanne Evans has a

lot of talent. What is her job, tell us? I am not going to tell you. Why

not? There is not much diversity in the group you have announced, would

you agree? Come on, that is splitting hairs. I have appointed

three people. Four. My team will be announced in the next 72 hours. This

party will move forward. We have had problems over the last couple of

months and now we will restructure the party and get ready for the

battle ahead at Sleaford and by-elections hopefully next year as

well. You were described as a reluctant leader and I think you

thought about it before you went to the job. And it was suggested you

lacks the steel necessary to sort out the difficulties that the party

has experienced. What changed your mind and have you got the steel? The

steel issue, the easy thing for me would be to step aside and drum the

other faction out of the party, which would be the wrong thing to

do. The Coward's thing to do. I showed steel because I said I would

bring this thing back together and move it forward and turn it into a

real movement of working people that will go into labour constituencies

and hopefully in many areas replace the Labour Party. As for me wanting

to do it, one reason I did it was because it is my duty. I watched

over the summer the party I laugh and have helped build, begin to fall

to bits. It is my duty to step in, steadied the ship and take it

forward to bigger and better things. Let's pick up on some of the things

you mention. On Brexit, how will you put pressure on the Government to

deliver what you would like to see in terms of leaving the EU? Elect

aurally. -- in terms of elections. The only way you change things in

British politics is by being an electoral threat. We saw that in

2013. The only reason Mr Cameron offered the referendum was because

Ukip was growing in size, growing in the polls and becoming an electoral

threat. That is how we will hold the Government's feet to the fire over

Brexit. How will you bring Labour voters over to Ukip? Very easy.

Jeremy Corbyn seems to be doing a very good job of that himself. We're

now going to begin to speak the language of ordinary working people.

We will move into the areas that the Labour Party have neglected.

Working-class communities across the kingdom can have nothing in common

with Jeremy Corbyn and the others. This north London, Islington set. We

will focus on the issues that really matter to working-class people on

the doorstep - immigration, crime, defence, foreign aid, ensuring

British people are put to the top of the queue. We will go out there to

campaign and you will see a big rise in the Ukip voting Labour areas

under my leadership. If you expect to increase the vote, what would

success looked like in terms of seats at the next general election?

We would be looking for an improvement on the last one, which

would not be difficult. We are looking at least to get into double

figures. We're going to target sensibly, not have that scatter-gun

approach we had in past. It is clear, the areas where we are now

winning councils, drilling down in local communities and making a

difference already. Use a double figures in the 2020 general election

for Ukip. I would hope so, Jo. But you are putting me on the spot. I

was only elected five minutes ago. But you haven't just stepped on

leather Ukip stage, have you? You are not a new be in that sense.

There was an accusation that the party misspent funds during the

election campaign, and one of your own member said it would be no

surprise if that had happened. What do you think? In our defence, we had

two compliance officers who said everything was fine. We have done

nothing different from any of the other pan-European parties, and we

expect to be vindicated. In the end, this looks to me as if this is

nothing but revenge for Brexit by the European Parliament. It could

end up in the European court of justice and I absolutely 100%

believe that we will be found innocent. You say you will bring the

party together, but one of your big problems is that you have lost a lot

of people, people defecting to the Tories, or becoming independent. It

was hinted last week that Douglas Carswell could rejoin the Tory Party

before the next election. Stephen -- Stephen Wolf, Diane James, these are

people who came from the Tory Party. I just saw Douglas on the stairs. He

won't be a problem. I am always sad when people leave the party, at any

level. I hope that one day they may think about coming back under a new

leadership. We have had a very difficult summer. It was as if Ukip

won the referendum, stopped fighting the European Union, looked around

and decided what else it could fight and decided to fight each other.

That is over now, finished. We will look forward and not backward. Under

my leadership, with a united Ukip, I would not want to be Labour and

Conservative MPs, because if you are Ray Remainer, we're coming after

you. -- if you are a Remainer. Nigel Farage will be a roaming voice for

the party. I think you will find Nigel Farage will be a prominent

voice for the party, on the airwaves and on TV shows like this. I'm sure

he will be if he has anything to do with it. In terms of other

elections, the French presidential election, would you back Marine Le

Pen for that job? This leader of Ukip will not involve himself in any

foreign elections. No view at all on it? This Ukip leader will not

involve himself in any foreign elections, simple as that. I will be

focusing on getting the party ready for 2020 in this country. Do you

think it was a mistake for Nigel Farage to back Donald Trump? He has

struck gold, hasn't he? He has been proven absolutely right. So you were

wrong to criticise it? Yes will stop well, I didn't agree with some of

the things Donald Trump was saying during the campaign. I thought in

many ways he had the right messages but was the wrong candidate. Now he

has won, it is clear he is an Anglophile and will put Britain at

the front of the queue when it comes to a trade deal. And this is the guy

who backed Brexit. The special relationship is going to be safer

with the Trump Administration. Paul Nuttall, thank you very much. Lisa

Nandy, Ukip speaking the language of ordinary working people. There is no

real affinity in areas like yours with Jeremy Corbyn and the North

London elite, as he calls them. The challenge for Paul is whether he can

change the party. He said they want to learn to start speaking the

language of ordinary people in the North of England, and although lots

of people in constituencies like mine agreed with Ukip about wanting

to leave the EU, they had precisely the opposite vision about what comes

next. Even on immigration? Dan Jarvis has said today that those

Labour MPs who do not accept the verdict of the referendum, as he saw

it, a lot of it about immigration, will lose their seats. Yes, I think

people want to see the impact of immigration dealt with, particularly

where we were talking about attracting people into this country

to be able to work in areas like the NHS, which has done a lot of good

for our services. Young people were saying, we would love to work in the

NHS, so why are you not investing in us too? People would like to see

more money for the NHS as well. Is it just about impact or is it about

fewer people, the numbers? It is about who comes, where they work and

what impact that has. It depends, for example, if you are Ray

tradesperson working in London where you are competing with migrant

workers prepared to live in damp, dirty, overcrowded housing so that

you can cut your costs and you seen your wages going down, I think that

is about having a minimum level of skills and qualifications in order

to drive wages up. If you are a young person in a town like Wigan,

where you have just lost your nursing bursary and you are being

told to thank your lucky stars that we can attract people into work in

the NHS, then it is about ringing back the nursing bursary and that

pathway for you. That means you won't reduce the numbers. In the

end, people would want a straight answer on that. As well as the

impact, would you reduce the numbers? It is not about an

arbitrary cap, because that would damage public services. The problem

Paul has got is that his party was fighting a campaign saying they

would put more money into public services after the referendum, and

what we have heard is that there will be more cuts to services as a

result of leaving the EU. The net migration figures haven't come down

to the tens of thousands over the last Parliament and still in this

Parliament, so there is no point in having a cap will stop we set a

target which we have not met. Which you could not meet the first time,

and you are still far off. Nobody predicted the employment boom we

have seen in the last four or five years. As a result, there are parts

of the country where there is effectively full employment,

business is saying, we need more workers because there is not the

availability of young workers. I am open-minded about the immigration

issue. For many people, when they voted for Britain to leave the EU,

they wanted to see that immigration policy was coming back to the UK for

full control. We need to have an honest debate about immigration in

the future. The population structure is changing, we are becoming an

older society. The truth is, we probably need more immigrants in the

future, not less, to do all those jobs that the young talent pool

isn't available to do. In a word, we need immigration - do you agree with

Stephen? Because of our manifesto commitment, I support attempts to

bring the numbers down below 100,000. Everyone acknowledges that

will be difficult. Do you think it can be achieved? It is, I think. It

will take a while, and it is not achievable until we take back

control over immigration and bring free movement to an end. You would

be prepared to bring the numbers down to the tens of thousands even

if it affected public services and looking after an ageing population

in the way Stephen Crabb outlined? And think it is possible to reduce

it without damaging services. It is important for us to attempt to

fulfil the commitment we made in our manifesto. It will take a long time

and it won't be easy but we should not give up on it as an aspiration.

Do you think you can do both? It is difficult to achieve. Foreign

students, it is ridiculous to count those in our figures. It is a good

thing for people to come and study in our universities. They bring in

cash from overseas and should not be counted. I think this is cheap

politics because you are trying to pretend to people that you can fix

some very real problems in their lives by having an arbiter 's target

-- by having an arbitrary target around numbers. It will lead a much

smaller working age population trying to pay for the welfare state

that supports the very old and the very young. Not only are you going

into that with no plan about how to mitigate the damage to public

services, but you're not saying anything about investing in young

people in towns like mine so that they can compete in the system we

have. We want to invest in young people to give them the skills they

need to get these jobs. Why are you not doing it? We have to respond to

public concern about unsustainable levels of migration. I am not saying

that we should bring it down to zero. Of course, migration should

continue and it can help our economy, but it needs to be a

sustainable levels if we are to respond to the result of the

referendum and the public concern that there is. Our job as

politicians is to solve some of the real problems this country has. You

are arguing, essentially, that all you want to do is respond to

something you have heard rather than to lead the country forward. No, I

am saying I was elected on a manifesto that made a commitment to

bring down net migration. We will have to leave it there, except just

briefly to ask, Emily Thornbury suggested that the Labour policy was

that Labour will not frustrate the will of the people as a result of

the referendum and will not try to blog article 50 being triggered?

Yesterday I said I did not think there was a strong appetite in the

country for a second referendum, certainly not from my constituents.

From Labour MPs? Most feel that we had the referendum, made the

argument and lost, so now our job is to get on with it. Why is Emily

Thornbury not being clear about the Labour line? She did what a lot of

politicians do, she answered the question she wanted to rather than

the point that was being made. Our job five months after the vote is to

make sure that we have some say in what Britain looks like after Brexit

rather than rehashing old arguments. Thank you.

Now it's time for our daily quiz, which today is all about Francois

Fillon, the Thatcher-admiring, car-loving, French Republican

presidential candidate, who is married to a Brit.

But what is Monsieur Fillon's nickname?

At the end of the show, Stephen and Lisa will give us

I didn't know what it was I love. -- what it was either.

It's the band you've always wanted to see.

You get online as soon as the tickets are released -

Have genuine fans really snapped up the tickets that quickly,

or are ticket touts buying them in bulk so they can sell them

on at much higher prices on ticket reselling websites?

That's what many genuine fans suspect and now there's a campaign

Josh Franceschi of the band You Me At Six went back to one

of his favourite venues, Alexandra Palace in North London,

And I should warn you that there is some flash

Rock 'n' roll is about breaking boundaries, about enjoying yourself,

but if there's one thing threatening the new music industry

I don't just mean the people standing outside the venue.

That's illegal without a street trading

I'm talking about online ticket touts, individuals or

businesses who scalp masses of tickets, often

using a specialised botnet software so they can

When a gig is announced, fans head to primary

ticket websites, often to be told it's sold out,

It's the touts who bought them, forcing fans

to pay hiked up prices on secondary websites.

These secondary websites masquerade as fan-to-fan

marketplaces, but as we highlighted at the Culture, Media and Sport

select committee, they are all dependent on hard-core ticket touts.

One of Stub Hub's major clients was recently outed as a man

from Quebec who is still scalping and reselling

Enough is enough - genuine fans are being priced

Music lovers are consumers too, and consumers have rights.

In New York, legislation is in place.

Those profiteering should face prison or a fine.

This goes beyond consumer protection.

A number of music businesses have come together

to fight back with a new campaign called the Fan Fair Alliance.

This is an industry that's already suffering

from a lack of money coming into it in other ways.

If we want the live community to thrive, we need this to

And we're also joined by the Conservative MP Nigel Adams,

Ticket resale sites provided important service if you miss out

first time around? They serve a purpose but I think it is about

there being a cut-off point as to how far prices can be inflated. Some

websites offer resale mechanisms but that is at face value and there are

websites a little bit more, what we would say at the fairer end of the

scale. Websites charging 20 times the resale price. Give me an

example? Tickets can go for? Way into their thousands. There was a

study with Phil Collins and I believe it got to ?4000 for two

tickets. Were they sold out in 15 seconds or something? How can that

be? I think we have all tried to get tickets, I have tried with a couple

of iPads and failed recently to do it. Should there be technology to

stop people buying in bulk? A lot of the primary ticket companies have

technology to try to stop it happening but it is a technological

arms race and the touts are very good at it. They have these bots

that hoover up hundreds and thousands of tickets and within

seconds they are for resale on other websites at inflated prices. Will

legislation do what you want it to do if it is about a technological

arms race? I believe it will. Josh has been fantastically supportive.

He took it upon himself to sell tickets director fans across the

counter in a shop. There is a problem. It is not a silver bullet

to ban the bots and make it an offence, but they do it in certain

states in America where you can now go to prison. I want to make it an

imprisonable offence as well but there are other things we need to do

as well. Do you support that? Yes. For people to go to jail, for there

to be a prison sentence, do you think it will work as a deterrent? I

think it will work as a deterrent. It is not about me trying to lock

people up, it is trying to get the situation changed for fans of live

music because daily I interact with the fine base, whether face-to-face

or through social media -- fan base. Many are priced out of the equation

and that is my fundamental issue with it. A ticket resale company

mentioned in the film said they support legislation to stop bots

misuse. They say they have consistently supported legislation

and gave evidence to a committee in the Senate on the subject. They go

on to say legislation alone cannot solve it so what else needs to be

done? I think we need to be looking at how tickets are released and in

some cases you have artists and managers who might be complicit.

Touting has been going on since the Romans have put on shows in the

Colosseum but we will not entirely move this away but we need to take

action. Having this as an offence is a step in the right direction. Is it

a good idea? Yes, it sounds exactly right. It is striking a balance,

because nobody wants to stop the process of selling on a ticket you

might not need and even getting a little bit of a margin. It is making

sure people cannot profiteer and in terms of hoovering up tickets,

surely that is a crime. Is it a pressing issue for you? Yes, along

with the work Nigel has done, my colleague Sharon Hodgson has

campaigned on this and that is because for our constituents it

matters. It is not just the fan experience, but it also strangles an

industry that is important for Britain and brings pleasure to a lot

of people and these people are parasites and need to be dealt with,

so well done. Have you tried to get tickets? I have been unsuccessful. I

got my Britney tickets but had to use three phones. I got through in

20 minutes. I can confirm she was brilliant. It was worthwhile? I lost

out on Kate Bush. Should ministers get behind this? Absolutely. The

Culture Secretary takes it seriously and is having meetings today

regarding law enforcement of this and I meet her on Wednesday at the

Department with industry representatives. We have an

opportunity. We will debate it a day in the report stage of the digital

economy Bill. It is a cross-party supported issue. The only people

presumably not in favour are the stand Flashmans of this world. You

are confident this will make a difference? I am and I think more

artists should speak up for their fans on this issue. It does not take

much to put your name on something and it is worth putting your name

on. We are confident it will be passed.

Now, the big question this week is, which British politicians will be

boarding a plane to Havana to attend Fidel Castro's funeral?

Jeremy Corbyn - probably, Boris Johnson - maybe.

But what's in store for those of us marooned on a North Atlantic rather

Today, Theresa May hosts the Polish Prime Minister

at Downing Street in the latest bilateral meeting with EU leaders

before formal Brexit negotiations start next year.

They'll also discuss the deployment of British troops

On Tuesday, the government will publish a Green Paper

on corporate governance that will include proposals to make

companies publish information on the the ratio between their

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will meet

And Thursday is the by-election in Richmond Park in south-west

London, which was triggered by the resignation of Zac Goldsmith

following the government's decision to back a third runway a Heathrow.

We're joined now by the joint political editor of the Guardian,

Heather Stewart, and Jim Waterson of Buzzfeed.

Welcome. Nick Clegg has said the Richmond by-election result if the

Lib Dems win could mark a turning point in the government's direction

on Brexit, do you agree? Zac Goldsmith triggered the by-election,

resigning over Heathrow but no candidate is standing who would back

the third runway so it has become about Brexit and an opportunity for

the Liberal Democrats to prove they can turn people'sanguish about what

is going into an electoral fight back for them but it remains to be

seen whether they can do so but they have thrown the kitchen sink at it.

I do not know how many invitations to go down... Every single day. We

will see. If they won, would it marked a seismic change? It would

increase their number of MPs by one. The only way is up for them because

they are in a terrible position but there is optimism if you talk to

them. They say you have to be a bit mad to be Lib Dem at the moment but

it is fun. We are starting to break in suburban Lib Dem Tory seats. And

some of the Labour suburban seats. They are going for suburban seats

where previously Lib Dems could think of getting MPs. Richmond, they

have a very good chance. On Brexit will it change the terms? I'm not

sure it will put the pressure on Theresa May at the moment is to give

us more detail and information. She is saying no running commentary. But

a lot of politicians are giving us a running commentary from the other

side of the channel but if the Lib Dems perform strongly it would put a

certain amount of pressure on Theresa May and tell us more about

how she will handle this and perhaps to retain a closer relationship but

she has her backbenchers shouting saying, let's do it now. One of the

other issues she made prominent when she became leader and Prime Minister

was corporate governance. Workers on boards. As she abandoned her

promises? She said she would like to see workers on boards of companies.

Has it gone? We will have to see what is in the consultation but

potentially we are less likely to see one of your mates elevated to

board level and sitting around having coffee with the chairman

discussing the future of the company. The bit that is interesting

is whether they will introduce public pay ratios so you will see

how much you earn compared to the boss, or how much the average pay in

the organisation is, which Vince Cable proposed in the coalition but

dropped when he was told Goldman Sachs would look more equal than at

Waitrose or John Lewis. Why do you think she seems to be backing away

from some of these issues. It is a short period in which to perform a

U-turn but I think she is anxious about business reaction. There was a

big business backlash after her conference speech when she appeared

to signal a more interventionist approach, with Ed Miliband type

policies. Businesses are anxious anyway because of Brexit and

uncertainties so there is some nervousness but it is rapid to have

proposed these things and be rowing back already. What about Fidel

Castro? Who will go? Should Jeremy Corbyn go? He wants to. Jeremy

Corbyn probably never dream team would be considered for an invite to

Fidel Castro's funeral and now he has this opportunity and he is told

he is not necessarily allowed to take it because it might make it

look bad for his party. I feel sorry for this guy. His chance to get over

their and get stuck in. Now he has MPs telling him it would be wildly

inappropriate. What does Lisa Nandy say? Should he go? I would not go

out of respect for people who have died or suffered under Castro but we

owe it to them and the rest of the world to take a proper assessment of

Castro's legacy. How was it this guy who has been criticised rightly by

human rights organisations for the brutality of his regime also came to

be held as a hero by Nelson Mandela? To understand that you have to

understand the role the US has played against Cuban people and

their interests. What I have seen in the last few days is so many people

trying to take the complexity out of politics and it is tempting to do

but ultimately a destructive thing to do. Many people suffered and lost

their lives while Fidel Castro was in power and it is more complicated

than it looks. There is a David and Goliath tale in terms of how Cuba

managed to hold America to ransom. You should the British Government

send? I am sure the Foreign Office have protocols. They will be reading

them. The correct rank of minister to go. Not Boris, please. It

probably will not be Boris. It is right we should send somebody but we

should do it being absolutely clear that this is a man who represented

an ideology that cause destruction not just in Cuba but around the

world, he imprisoned thousands, murdered his own citizens, no need

to shed a tear for him. Let's pick up on one of those

stories with our guests here in the studio -

the proposals to force companies to publish information

about the difference between the highest

and lowest paid employees. It's been one of the themes

of Theresa May's premiership. Here's what she said on the subject

at the launch of her leadership bid The FTSE, for example,

is trading at about the same level it was 18 years ago,

and it's nearly 10% below its Yet, in the same period,

executive pay has more than trebled, and there is an irrational,

unhealthy and growing gap between what these companies

pay their workers and what So, as part of the changes

I want to make to corporate governance, I want to make

shareholder votes on corporate pay I want to see more transparency,

including the full disclosure of bonus targets and the publication

of pay multiple data - that is, the ratio between CEOs' pay

and the Theresa May said it, it's the

difference between the earnings of the chief executive and the average

employee when it came to forcing companies to publish pay ratios, not

the lowest and the highs, necessarily. Do you support that,

Stephen Crabb? I like the idea, not because I think it will achieve a

huge amount on its own. It represents an approach we are taking

to the corporate world, saying, look, in the 21st century we need a

more responsible capitalism in our society, we want business is doing

the right thing. By using the pay ratio as a lever for shining a light

on wider business practices, that is really important. As we just heard,

and no doubt some of the companies would argue this, it can create

misleading comparisons if in the end you distort to some extent what the

pay ratio is between the highest and the average employee. Who would that

benefit? Sure, there will be imperfections. It is not a perfect

tool, but the very fact that you are encouraging businesses to do it

means that they will have to have that conversation at board level,

have that discussion in the company, and that is a healthy thing. Do you

think it is a good idea? Theresa May talked about average pay is being

compared to the highest pay, which cuts out what is happening at the

bottom of the scale. The reason it is important is not just because

there are huge gaps in wealth in the country but because businesses that

try to take all their employees with them, reinvest in local communities

and make sure they put pounds in the pockets of the people who spend

them, these are the businesses that tend to do well and help build the

economy. It is about a long-term business approach, not a quick,

short term gain approach, which has been damaging before. It is

important that she gets the detail right. What about the point that if

you cannot take businesses with you and you alienate them, and a lot of

people argue she is moving away from her original rhetoric, is the tone.

Businesses did not like it. There are businesses the other day, such

as Lidl the other day saying they would pay the living wage. There are

companies that want to invest in the workforce and put something back

into the community, and those are the ones that Prime Minister should

be supporting. Company should publish the pay of its top earner

compared to its average employee and if it can be justified by

performance, they would have nothing to fear. Who said that? Ed Miliband?

Yes. How about this - employees should be on remuneration

committees. Same guy? The Labour manifesto. So the Conservative Party

has shamelessly stolen labour ideas, ideas which you criticised the

separately when they were suggested. It is about responding to what

voters are saying. We did not spend the month in the referendum campaign

talking just about Europe. We talked about jobs, people's working lives

and other things they felt discontent about. This is one of the

things we have taken from that. Theresa May talked about this during

the leadership campaign, but so did other people back in July. It is

healthy. Except that Theresa May is now backing away from some of those

ideas she was aping from Labour. We will wait and see in the Green

paper. It should be the start of a wide-ranging discussion. Ed Miliband

is having some fun with his tweets. What is your response? Ed is having

a bit of fun there. Let's look at what is in the Green paper tomorrow.

Lisa is right - the vast majority of businesses in the country are run by

decent people looking to great value for the company and for the wider

economy. We want to share the spotlight on the things that need

improved. Like putting workers on the board? That sounded like a

gimmick, to be honest. I am interested in how we can strengthen

workers' voices within the company. I am impressed in some companies by

how good relations are between the bosses and the unions. It's a

gimmick? It is patronising to say you want to give workers a voice but

shut them out of the boardroom. This is about restoring power to workers

over the things that affect their lives will stop workers in

companies, as most decent business leaders will tell you, are the

greatest asset that any company has. They are the people who drive the

company and build the wealth that is then reinvested in the company and

which lines the pockets of shareholders too. Are there other

ways of giving employees a voice other than putting them on the

board? There are lots of ways. The co-op model, where the company is

actually owned by the workforce and decisions are made cooperatively

between those workers and the management. Trade unions are another

way that you give workers a strong voice. There are lots of things that

can be done. The problem with what Theresa May is doing is that she is

willing the ends but will not countenance the means. These were

considered anti-business when Labour suggested them but they are sensible

and reasonable when the Conservatives do? You have a more

sensible discussion with business when you have Conservatives in

office generally. I will give you the last word. Is that true? This is

such an outdated point of view. This is a party formed by and for working

people. We have strong relationships up and down the country. We believe

it there. Now, if you were watching

the programme a couple of weeks ago you will have heard the song that's

surely to a shoo-in you will have heard the song that's

surely to be a shoo-in No, not James Corden or a re-release

of Leonard Cohen's Halleluiah, I speak, of course, of the "JC

for PM" track written and performed But we can now reveal exclusively

on this programme that Yes, the team behind the satirical

play "Corbyn: The Musical" are releasing one of the tracks just

in time for Christmas. # I didn't sell out

I didn't give in # Don't believe in borders

Austerity is mean # I'll veto a state funeral

For Her Majesty the Queen # The protesters are in charge

We've occupied the state # I'm a governmental

virgin # I didn't sell out

I didn't give in We may be revealing too much on this

programme. The writer of that song and the creator of Corbyn: The

Musical commie Bobby Friedman, --, Bobby Friedman, joins us now. Why

are you releasing it as a Christmas single? It is for charity, which is

a good thing at Christmas, but also, we saw the other song that was on

the show a few weeks ago, and we thought we should give people a

choice. This song is entitled You Needed A Hero, You Got Corbyn, which

you could take either way. It could be in the sense that you needed a

hero and you did in fact get one. It is extraordinary that one politician

can generate two Christmas singles. That is the thing about Jeremy

Corbyn. I would say that we have as much of a chance of getting to

number one for Christmas as Jeremy Corbyn does of getting to number

ten, but you never know what can happen with Jeremy Corbyn, because

people are fascinated by him even if they don't necessarily want to vote

for him. Will you be buying the song? And what do you think of the

analysis? It's dreadful. Come on! You should have asked people to

guest star in it, and then I would have bought it. Would he have taken

part? I think so. Do you think there was more of an appetite in the

country for a pro-Jeremy Corbyn Christmas song or an anti-Jeremy

Corbyn Christmas song? I think it is a British tradition of satirising

our politicians rather than an anti-song, trying to pop the balloon

of pompous politicians. Go onto iTunes, where it is available now,

and satirise and Pope politicians in the ribs rather than holding them up

in a hagiographic way. Is there not enough satire around, Stephen?

There's plenty. I thought it was a reasonable song, but not that

Christmassy. There is one other song coming out for the Jo Cox

Foundation. Don't be put off by the fact that politicians are singing on

the song, there are real musicians as well, and it will raise money for

good causes. How many politicians on that? Quite a few, they were in the

choir. They have been slightly muted in favour of people who can actually

sing. I can't sing. Not a note? I think I can, but that's usually

after seven pints of lager. I'm sure that can be arranged!

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was: What is Francois Fillon's nickname?

Is it a) Monsieur Thatcher, b) Monsieur Rosbif, c)

Monsieur Va-Va Voom, or d) Monsieur Pee-Pee?

This has foxed the two of you. Have a guess. It might be too obvious.

Miss your -- miss Apparently, he often disappears

to the loo when things get Let's look at the more serious angle

on the French presidential elections. The Socialists will be

nowhere in this - why? What we have seen across Europe, and in the

United States, recently is a similar phenomenon, where you have the far

right offering cheap and easy solutions, to turn the clock back to

the 1970s and saying they can put everything back to how it was, then

on the other hand, you've got the sort of radical left saying, we can

do everything, we can sort this out. In the middle, you have the

centre-left in all of those countries that has been squeezed by

those two. Things Critics might say they have failed. The centre-left

has failed to inspire people in recent years. Briefly, are you a fan

of Francois Fillon? I think France needs a shake-up and he is the guy

to do it. Think it very much, and thank you to both of you for being

our guess. The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

with all the big political stories MUSIC: Silly Games

by Janet Kay Mum, we're supposed to be

making our own, like tape. I used to do a joke about waiting

for Lenny Henry to die so I could get on TV.

LAUGHTER I hate that joke. What is that

joke? "There can be only one."