27/01/2017 Daily Politics


27/01/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Theresa May signals a shift in UK foreign policy as she rules out

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future military action unless it's in our interests to intervene.

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The PM meets Donald Trump in the White House later today -

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the first foreign leader to meet the new president.

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We'll discuss her hopes of an early trade deal with the States.

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Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit problems mount up as his stance on Article 50

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prompts one frontbencher to resign and more signal they'll

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And it's the EU's answer to House of Cards, a new political TV drama

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That sounds like my kind of television.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today the journalist and author

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Rachel Shabi, and Peter Hitchens, who writes for the Mail on Sunday.

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So, Theresa May arrived in the States yesterday for her meeting

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She kicked off her visit, though, with a speech

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to Republican politicians during which she asserted the need

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for a strong Nato alliance, urged President Trump to engage

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but beware of Russia and reiterated the UK's

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opposition to the use of torture in

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But Theresa May made headlines with a section of her speech

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in which she signalled a change of approach towards

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It is in our interests, those of Britain and America together,

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to stand strong together to defend our values,

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our interests and the very ideas in which we believe.

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This cannot mean a return to the failed policies of the past.

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The days of Britain and America intervening in sovereign countries

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in an attempt to remake the world in our own image are over.

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But nor can we afford to stand idly by when the threat is real

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and when it is in our own interests to intervene.

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We must be strong, smart and hard-headed and we must

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demonstrate the resolve necessary to stand up for our interests.

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Philadelphia yesterday. I think both of you would be pretty radical of

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what you might call the Blairite interventionist policy, Mr Cameron

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did not go down that road although he did in Libya. You must be quite

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pleased by what you have heard there? Pleased, no. There is a wider

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picture here which isn't necessarily what she says or doesn't say about

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military intervention, given that whatever she says is with a mind to

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placating Donald Trump. It is the fact that she is getting engaged

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with the US president in this way, I'd US president who at best can be

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described as a lying, off right-wing populist who has no respect for the

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current institutions and mechanisms in the global sense that maintain

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stability and security in any meaningful way. So too allied

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herself in any way with a US foreign policy, given the direction it is

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likely to take, I think is dangerous and not good for Britain. Is only

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saying this to placate Donald Trump? Do you think she would not be saying

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it anyway? I do not think she is saying it's too but Kate Donald

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Trump but on the other hand, it is not as good as good as it looks. A

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large chunk of the speech mentions the fact that we are sending 800

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troops to the Baltic republics in Poland, which is a mad thing for

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Britain to be doing. Our policy towards Russia has become almost as

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insane as our former policies to Iraq. It is a different type of

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lunacy. She has drawn the distinction between wars of

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intervention and supporting Nato. She has but I am not sure distinct.

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This suppose Russian aggression, involving a voluntary departure

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along hundreds of thousands of square miles of territory, into an

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area with economic insignificance. And we still go on about it as if it

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was a terrifying superpower about to squeeze the continent, and act

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accordingly by building up the fears in Eastern Europe and the Baltics

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which we claim through Nato to be soothing. It is a very odd posture

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and one of the very few sensible things which Donald Trump has said

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about foreign policy is that he thinks Nato is obsolete. It is

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obsolete, as obsolete as mounting an alliance against the

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Austro-Hungarian Empire or Napoleon Bonaparte. The Foreign Secretary has

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also said that we need to think afresh on how we handle Syria,

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hinting that Mr Assad could be allowed to run for election, if he

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wants. That is just recognising, I would suggest, that Mr Assad is safe

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as long as the Russians are backing him and that we really have no

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influence there. I think there is a danger. When we look at what

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happened over the last few months in terms of the Foreign Secretary, and

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what has been said, and it all started with Nigel Farage being the

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first to meet to Boris -- Donald Trump. And it is setting us on a

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course of normalising Donald Trump, although his intentions are not

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normal. Syria might be a reflection of realities on the ground but when

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you look at something like Trump's statements regarding Israel, and

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Theresa May displeased many in the region by ally in Britain to the US

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president in a way which was a change of tack for the UK, and the

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wrong change. I would suggest that the Foreign Secretary's statement is

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a recognition that Syria is now a Russians are at it. It is an

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extraordinary pull-back from a policy which has been defeated.

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There are talks of safe stones being set up in Syria this morning which

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some people say is a dangerous return to attempt to intervene. That

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is for refugees? Supposedly but it could develop into more calls for

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no-fly zones, but we note the military convocations of that. I

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don't think it is entirely over yet but certainly it seems to be one of

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the most dangerous policies which we have adopted over the past several

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years has come to an end. And the absolute refusal to even begin to

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see the possibility that the Assad government might survive has been

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rather quietly stitched. I'm going to stop you there because we have a

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lot to cover. We will return to some of these themes.

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Theresa May is the first foreign leader to meet Donald Trump.

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But which leader has been the first to cancel a meeting

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First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of Scotland.

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Or President Enrique Pena Nieto of Mexico?

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At the end of the show, Rachel and Peter will no doubt give

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Later today, the Prime Minister will meet President Trump

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for face-to-face talks - as the first foreign leader

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to visit the White House since he became president.

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The PM's trip comes at the end of a frenetic first week

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for Donald Trump, who has been busy putting pen to paper.

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Among the dozens of executive orders he's signed so far,

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he's instructed officials to begin planning the border wall he promised

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to build, and to scale back Barack Obama's Affordable Care Act.

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Maybe as a precursor to getting rid of it altogether.

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So what are Mrs May and Mr Trump likely to discuss this afternoon?

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A possible US-UK trade deal is likely to be

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While the UK can't begin to negotiate new trade deals

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until it leaves the EU, Mr Trump has said he wants

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Mrs May is also likely to remind the new president

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of the strategic importance of NATO - an alliance that he has

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The PM may also want to discuss how the US and UK deal

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Mr Trump has been full of praise for Russia's President Putin

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and says it's "an asset, not a liability" if he has

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a relationship with him - a stance that has alarmed some

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Mrs May is also under pressure to reject Mr Trump's

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She has already suggested that the UK could scale back

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on intelligence sharing if the US reintroduces torture.

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She's also said she won't be afraid to challenge the president,

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who continues to court controversy, telling the BBC:

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"Whenever there is something that I find

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unacceptable I won't be afraid to say that to Me Trump."

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We've been joined from Strasbourg by the Conservative MP Nigel Evans,

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who attended Donald Trump's inauguration last week,

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and in the studio the joint leader of the Green Party,

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Nigel Evans, you have met Mr Trump. You were in Washington before Mrs

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May, what is his attitude to Britain? Well, I think we have a

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great opportunity to rekindle the special relationship which Theresa

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May spoke about to the Republican congressional retreat in

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Philadelphia. I think she mentioned the special relationship about eight

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times and the warm welcome that she had by those congressmen and

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senators was absolutely superb. I spoke to a lot of congressmen,

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Senators during the four days I was in Washington during your

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inauguration and whenever I mention Brexit, they were lapping it up. --

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during the inauguration. It did not matter whether they were Republican

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or Democrat, the thumbs were up. They were keen to get a speedy trade

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deal done between the UK and the US. If President Trump we have a man

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whose mother was Scottish, who has got a couple of businesses in

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Scotland in golf courses, who was in favour of Brexit and wants to do a

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trade deal with the United Kingdom as quickly as possible. He put the

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bust of Winston chill back in the Oval Office as one of his first

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acts. What is there that we need to do? Engage with Donald Trump as much

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as we can. Theresa May is the first world leader to meet Donald Trump

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since becoming president. And we have said that about four times now

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so it must be true. Angela Merkel has asked to see him, and he has not

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even reply to her. But the fact that he wants to be their... Don't get

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sidetracked. We're leaving the EU, which many people feel leaves us a

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little bit without friends. There is a powerful man in the Oval Office

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who wants to be our best friend. Why would we not take him up on that?

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Because it puts us in a very weak position. We are the junior partner,

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looking quite desperate. Theresa May looks quite desperate, falling over

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herself to be the first in the queue. I think she should've bided

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her time and gone with some clear red lines, particularly around

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torture and Paris climate talks. We were on torture. She is in favour of

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the Paris climate deal. Britain is not going to unsigned that. But she

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should have gone saying that it was a red line for us. She needs

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leadership. Rightly or wrongly, he is against it and the British

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government cannot change his mind on it. So suddenly we have not any

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influence? Either we are going to show leadership or we are not.

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Mexico are showing us up at the moment, playing hardball. What we

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have is a situation where we put ourselves in extreme Brexit context,

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going cap in hand to America saying, what can you give us in terms of the

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trade deal? Of course Donald Trump is welcoming her with open arms

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because he knows he can ride roughshod all over her. He sees a

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desperate Prime Minister asking what they can give her. Donald Trump is

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at the best unpredictable, uncertain, possibly unreliable. Is

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it wise for British Prime Minister to put all your eggs in this basket?

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She is not putting all her eggs in one basket. She's going to be out

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looking, she said to the congressmen. But trade with the US

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will be massive in terms of leverage when we are talking about a trade

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deal with the EU. Our neighbours in Europe, after we have done a deal

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with the US, are they going to punish us? Because that is the voice

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we are hearing at this moment in time. Donald Trump is a different

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sort of president, we know that. He says things in a different sort of

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way. The fact is, on building the wall, between Mexico and the United

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States, the fact is that he has started the progress on that

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straightaway. I think he is likely to be the first politician in

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history to be roundly criticised for keeping its promises. He has said

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that that was what he was going to do and he was elected by over 63

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million people. We have to recognise that he is the President of the

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United States. Influence is what I wanted to come onto. One of the

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tests for Mrs May's influence will be whether from her point of view

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and from Europe's point of view, particularly from the Germans, can

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she bring him round to her way of thinking on Nato or not?

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That is one thing that she did clearly speak to the congressmen

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about, which was, yes, Nato may not be as effective as it should be,

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that is an understatement in itself, but we will spend 2% on defence and

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it will increase in every parliamentary year up to 2020, and

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she would use her influence with other European leaders to be able to

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do just the same. Nato is in need of reform and she stated that the

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congressman, it is not like we will sit back and say everything is

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hunky-dory, we have already pointed out, there is that gaping problem

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with Nato. The fact that we are spending 2% of our GDP on defence

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and a lot of other European countries are basically taking a

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free ride on the backs of the United Kingdom and the United States of

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America will simply not be tolerated, they have to wake up and

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realise that they had to pay their contribution towards their own

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defence. Jonathan Bartley, do you care if

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Nato is modernised? Are you in favour? We have been very

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critical of Nato and there is common ground in what Peter said earlier

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about Nato, it is a relic of the Cold War. When Donald Trump calls it

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obsolete, you agree? In a time when we see increasing insecurity, it is

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not the time to make drastic or snap decisions around Nato. You called it

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a relic, Donald Trump called it obsolete, you agree with Donald

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Trump? In some cases there will be common ground... Another one that is

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common ground, Donald Trump has essentially canned the trade Pacific

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partnership, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and TTIP, the north

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Atlantic equivalent, is dead in the water. You approve of that? We will

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see TTIP on steroids coming back, we will be handed a trade deal with

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very little say over it. Donald Trump is now against multilateral

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trade deals, your party has campaigned against multilateral

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trade deals. We are looking at a bilateral trade deal with the

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States. What will that look like? TTIP might be the blueprint. If we

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go there without much to negotiate will be just accept free access to

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the NHS from American countries? That was part of TTIP, presumably

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becomes part of the debate which the British House of Commons will have

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to decide. It is very hard to the special relationship with the

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country talking about America first, America will try to squeeze

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everything out of the UK they possibly can. That is what they do,

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the United States' relationship with this country has always been one of

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straightforward hard self-interest, the fantasy of the special

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relationship does not standard to an examination. The only real special

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relationship United States houses with Saudi Arabia, that is truly

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close. They are baffled by our insistence on including this phrase

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in documents, they are slightly embarrassed but will do it on

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occasion. This is a glorified selfie whether British primers to the White

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House, gets him herself photographed with the American president and

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hopes to bask in reflected importance. This comes back to risks

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involved? It is not glorifying selfie, that is the problem. I do

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not know what shade of immoral you have to be to look at what President

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Trump has done in the last week, among the highlights are announcing

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that he to build a wall, announcing a partial ban on Muslims and

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announcing that he wants to monitor the crimes of migrants, that is

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straight out of a Nazi handbook. I don't know how... Is the implication

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of all this, we know this is what he stands for, is it that the British

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Government should have nothing to do with him? I don't know how you can

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look at that in talk in terms of shared values, which is what Theresa

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May has... That is the answer to your question. We should have

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nothing to do with him? I agree we should bide our time and not rush to

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make friends with him and born and thereby normalise what he says. If

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he does not change his views... We are the first leaders to go in, we

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have a responsibility to the world... Or do you recommend we have

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nothing to do with him? It is not a binary option, it is whether we bide

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our time, go in in a dignified manner, say we are worried you would

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pull out of the Paris agreement, potentially threatening world trade

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for decades. Those are the occasions. We are talking about

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trade deals which will affect five or ten years, what about the 20 or

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30 year picture? It will make as economic worse off if we cannot sort

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out the biggest threat affecting humanity -- it'll make this economic

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we were soft. We have a picture of you with Mr Trump, Nigel Evans,

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shaking hands. That is when he was President-elect. British prime

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ministers, Labour and Conservative, have always placed great store since

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Churchill onwards by the special relationship. Is it not the highest

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of high wire acts to play such store by it when it is Donald Trump in the

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White House? I tell you what, I would rather Donald Trump in the

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White House who wants to do a deal with United Kingdom, a trade deal,

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and I listen to what Jonathan Bartley at has said, that man is

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clearly not interested in any trader whatsoever, rather than President

:20:32.:20:33.

Barack Obama who came and lectured the British electorate and said

:20:34.:20:37.

Betta vote to stay in the European Union otherwise you will be at the

:20:38.:20:40.

back of the queue for a trade deal. Now we have a president who wanted

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Brexit, we voted for it, he wants to the congressman this trade deal

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between the USA and America will not be easy. There is a continuity of

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interest bringing the UK and USA together. We stood shoulder to

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shoulder over decades on those areas where we have great interests

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together. We will not walk away like the Greens want us to do, or Peter

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Hitchens, or anybody else. He is the president of the United States, we

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have the opportunity to have influence with him and work with

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him, that is what we should do. We have run out of time. I have just

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said we have run as a term that we are coming back to the special

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relationship, so behave yourself rather than mumbling in the

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background. The Green Party websites is your policy is to pull out of you

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know -- Nato unilaterally. You want to get out of Nato and the something

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better in its place, but now is not the time to mess around with

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international institutions as the world gets more insecure daily. You

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are not in favour of pulling out unilaterally? Not now. Peter is

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still mumbling, but he does a lot of that.

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Over the years, British Prime Ministers have enjoyed distinctive

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The friendships forged between leaders have helped to shape

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world history and brought varying degrees of political fortune.

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But just how well can Theresa May get along with President Trump,

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and does the personal chemistry have to be right for the special

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# Thank you for being a friend. # Travelled down a road and back

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again. This is known as the Allies bench,

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it captures the friendship between the American and British wartime

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leaders. It is also a popular stop on the London to wrist Trail.

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-- tourist trail. The concept of the special relationship first came

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about because of President Rousseff valves and Winston Churchill. The

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British prime ministers first came up with the phrase in a speech after

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World War II and over 70 years since then, the relationship has seen its

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ups and downs. -- because of President Roosevelt and Winston

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Churchill. Reagan and Thatcher were political

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soul mates, both supporters of Private business and free markets.

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But things almost went pear shaped when the US invaded grenades, a

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British Commonwealth country, until the President run-up to apologise.

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Margaret Thatcher here. If I were there, Margaret, I would tilt my hat

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in the door before I came in. No need. Listen, we regret very much

:23:36.:23:39.

the embarrassment that has been caused you and I would just like to

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tell you what the story is from our end out here.

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The Blair and Bush bromance seemed an unlikely friendship, a Labour

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leader with a right-wing Republican president. At first it seemed they

:23:53.:23:56.

had little in common apart from using the same brand of toothpaste.

:23:57.:24:01.

Yet Tony Blair ended up being dubbed as America's poodle by the press

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because of his strong support for President Bush and the Iraq war.

:24:06.:24:11.

Let me thank President Bush for coming here.

:24:12.:24:14.

We are strong allies. The Prime Minister is a man of his word. He

:24:15.:24:21.

has my admiration. And he has the admiration of the American people.

:24:22.:24:26.

Jonathan Pelissie Tony Blair's chief of staff and saw first hand how the

:24:27.:24:30.

Prime Minister got on with George Bush and Bill Clinton -- Jonathan

:24:31.:24:34.

Powell was. So how much of a coup is it that Mrs May is the first leader

:24:35.:24:38.

to meet the new president? Traditionally the first meeting is

:24:39.:24:42.

with the Canadian Prime Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau seems not in

:24:43.:24:46.

a hurry to get to the White House, Angela Merkel is biding her time.

:24:47.:24:51.

Theresa May has won the race but nobody else's competing,

:24:52.:25:02.

so I don't think she can take great pleasure.

:25:03.:25:05.

What would be your top tip to Theresa May? A joint press

:25:06.:25:08.

conference can be very tricky, Tony Blair was tripped up with the one

:25:09.:25:10.

with Bill Clinton on Monica Lewinsky and found the one with George Bush

:25:11.:25:13.

very difficult, talking about Colgate and sharing toothpaste.

:25:14.:25:16.

Theresa May will want to avoid any appearance of being President

:25:17.:25:20.

Trump's golf caddy. She has criticised his remarks about women

:25:21.:25:23.

and Muslims and made it clear that she is not afraid to challenge him.

:25:24.:25:28.

Whenever there is something that I find unacceptable I will not be

:25:29.:25:32.

afraid to say that to Donald Trump. The body language of the two leaders

:25:33.:25:35.

at their first meeting might give away clues to any personal

:25:36.:25:41.

chemistry. Will they ever appear as Paoli as David Cameron and Barack

:25:42.:25:46.

Obama, flipping burgers at this Downing Street barbecue, although

:25:47.:25:50.

differences of opinion on big issues like torture marker cooling in the

:25:51.:25:54.

special relationship -- will they ever appear as pally as David

:25:55.:26:01.

Cameron and Barack Obama? Just as you think it goes away, it

:26:02.:26:06.

always come back, at least on this side of the Atlantic.

:26:07.:26:09.

Barbara Plett Usher, our Washington correspondent, joins us from the

:26:10.:26:13.

White House. Good to have you. We have a rough idea of what Mrs May

:26:14.:26:18.

wants to achieve, any idea what the Trump administration hopes to get

:26:19.:26:22.

out of this? Not really, they have not said very much about the meeting

:26:23.:26:27.

other than Mr Trump's statements at about, yes, Britain is very special.

:26:28.:26:32.

He said yesterday I have been meeting Theresa May and I don't have

:26:33.:26:36.

a commerce Secretary yet but I will have to deal with it, I think that

:26:37.:26:40.

is OK. We have no serious sense of what they want to get out of it. I

:26:41.:26:44.

think it is fair to say that the special relationship is more

:26:45.:26:48.

important to Britain than the United States, I think it has always been

:26:49.:26:52.

that way but particularly so now because the other strategic

:26:53.:26:55.

relationship with the European Union is in flux, so this one... Theresa

:26:56.:27:02.

May can't afford to have this one we can, she has to come through and

:27:03.:27:05.

make a point of saying, yes, we still have other options as world

:27:06.:27:09.

players after Brexit, she wants to get a strong endorsement on that

:27:10.:27:15.

from Mr Trump that he takes Britain seriously and particularly he is

:27:16.:27:18.

willing to do a trade deal with Britain quickly, once the Brexit

:27:19.:27:22.

negotiations are finished. I think that will be the main point of the

:27:23.:27:27.

talks, the discussion about a possible trade deal.

:27:28.:27:30.

Is the trump administration is serious about a trade deal? I have

:27:31.:27:34.

heard some people in the administration say they know that

:27:35.:27:37.

Britain can't sign a deal until it leaves the EU but they would quite

:27:38.:27:42.

like to do heads of agreement. Looking at all the other things Mr

:27:43.:27:46.

Trump is doing and the firing on all sides at the moment, has he got the

:27:47.:27:53.

time to focus on this which, for him, is not imperative for

:27:54.:27:57.

immediate? Does he have the ability to focus on much for any length of

:27:58.:28:03.

time altogether, that is the question. The signal is important.

:28:04.:28:07.

President Obama said Britain would go to the back of the queue if it

:28:08.:28:11.

went to with Brexit, Mr Trump has essentially said we will put you to

:28:12.:28:16.

the front. The details of negotiating another trade deal are

:28:17.:28:19.

quite fraught and will be quite lengthy because they can't sign

:28:20.:28:23.

another deal until Britain has sorted out its relationship with the

:28:24.:28:28.

EU. Although Mrs May has said that we can have talks about what

:28:29.:28:31.

barriers we can remove so we are ready to go on the day, I think the

:28:32.:28:37.

American trade negotiators, who are very tough, will want to see what

:28:38.:28:40.

sort of relationship Britain has with the EU market, what sort of

:28:41.:28:46.

access, before signing a trade deal. That will take years before that is

:28:47.:28:49.

sorted out. It is more about sending a signal.

:28:50.:28:53.

One all-important question, before you go, has the White House yet

:28:54.:28:59.

learned how to spell the Prime Minister's first name? I have heard

:29:00.:29:05.

that they got it wrong on the first attempt, but presumably once that is

:29:06.:29:09.

corrected it will stay corrected throughout the day, but watch this

:29:10.:29:12.

space. We will leave it there, we will know

:29:13.:29:16.

if they can spell her name that the special relationship is alive and

:29:17.:29:19.

well act summation thanks for joining us from the White House in

:29:20.:29:21.

Washington, DC. Now, speaking of special

:29:22.:29:22.

relationships, yesterday Jeremy Corbyn announced

:29:23.:29:24.

that his Labour MPs would be under a three-line whip to vote

:29:25.:29:26.

through the government's Article 50 Bill when it reaches

:29:27.:29:28.

the Commons next month. Since then, though,

:29:29.:29:30.

all hell has broken loose. Overnight two Labour whips

:29:31.:29:33.

responsible for party discipline have said they will likely vote

:29:34.:29:35.

to block Article 50. But neither Thangam Debbonaire nor

:29:36.:29:43.

Jeff Smith said they would resign their position,

:29:44.:29:45.

which could force Jeremy One person who has quit,

:29:46.:29:47.

though, is Tulip Siddiq - seat borders that of Jeremy Corbyn -

:29:48.:29:57.

and Brexit spokesman Keir Starmer. She quit as Shadow Early Years

:29:58.:30:01.

Minister last night saying her loyalty to her constituents meant

:30:02.:30:04.

she had no choice but to resign. Other frontbenchers

:30:05.:30:09.

who said they will vote against the Labour whip

:30:10.:30:11.

are Shadow Transport Minister Daniel Zeichner and Shadow Foreign

:30:12.:30:13.

Minister Catherine West, Sources have said between 60 and 80

:30:14.:30:15.

Labour MPs could rebel, though so far only a handful have

:30:16.:30:23.

said publicly they will vote And the highest profile

:30:24.:30:26.

potential rebel - Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis

:30:27.:30:35.

- yesterday withdrew He said he respected the result

:30:36.:30:37.

of the referendum and would vote To discuss all this we're joined

:30:38.:30:54.

from Cardiff by former Labour And I should mention that we did ask

:30:55.:31:01.

the Labour Party for an interview with a member of Mr Corbyn's Shadow

:31:02.:31:06.

Cabinet but none was available. So we go to Owen Smith. Thank you for

:31:07.:31:11.

joining us. Good morning, Andrew. You have said he will vote against

:31:12.:31:16.

Article 50. The country voted to leave the European Union, so why are

:31:17.:31:20.

you doing that? Because I cannot in all conscience vote for something

:31:21.:31:25.

that I think is in my view going to make the constituents that Ira

:31:26.:31:28.

present poorer, and our country poorer and more isolated in the

:31:29.:31:32.

world. -- the constituents I represent. It will compound the mere

:31:33.:31:39.

politics we have in the West. The Shadow Home Secretary says that MPs

:31:40.:31:44.

like you are undermining democracy. -- the meaner politics. I do not

:31:45.:31:51.

think democracy started on June 23. That was not your zero. We have a

:31:52.:31:58.

long-standing mandate as MPs to be representatives of our constituents

:31:59.:32:02.

and use our judgment in representing them. I'm not a delegate for my

:32:03.:32:07.

constituency. In my constituency, I know there is one piece of academic

:32:08.:32:09.

research that has been done looking at which way my constituents voted,

:32:10.:32:16.

suggesting they voted 55-45 to remain within the EU, so in that

:32:17.:32:19.

regard, I am reflecting their view. My view is that this is bad for

:32:20.:32:23.

Britain and the Labour Party needs to speak up for our convictions as

:32:24.:32:27.

pro Europeans, and more importantly as people who will defend jobs and

:32:28.:32:32.

opportunities and growth in our GDP in the UK. We think Brexit is bad

:32:33.:32:35.

for those things, so we should vote against it. How many do you reckon

:32:36.:32:42.

like-minded Labour MPs are? I do not know. It could be between 20 and 50.

:32:43.:32:48.

People will be making their minds up over the next few days. There are

:32:49.:32:51.

obviously will be other opportunities for people to express

:32:52.:32:55.

their views in respects to aspects of it, the customs union, the single

:32:56.:32:59.

market, but for my money we should be seeking to get another

:33:00.:33:01.

referendum, at the end of the process, and that is one of the

:33:02.:33:06.

amendments that I have tabled yesterday. I will also be voting

:33:07.:33:11.

against Article 50, I imagine, because I doubt very much whether my

:33:12.:33:15.

amendment will pass. Let's be generous and say you have got 50

:33:16.:33:19.

Labour MPs that think the way that you do. You have one conservative,

:33:20.:33:24.

the Lib Dems, one green, and the Scottish Nationalists, of course. So

:33:25.:33:29.

the rebellion has already failed on take-off. A bit like a Trident

:33:30.:33:39.

missile. I not anticipating... Off in the wrong direction and then into

:33:40.:33:44.

the sea. Too demure slightly, I think we're going in the right

:33:45.:33:47.

direction but you might be right in that the end point will be that we

:33:48.:33:53.

land in the sea. I am not anticipating that we will stop

:33:54.:33:57.

Article 50. There is a majority in the Labour Party and the Tories to

:33:58.:34:00.

get that past. The right thing for me to do, and I think the right

:34:01.:34:04.

thing for Labour to do is stand against it. But I appreciate that I

:34:05.:34:08.

am in a sizeable minority on that point. I understand, but the reason

:34:09.:34:14.

why the government can bank on a clear majority for Article 50,

:34:15.:34:18.

without even having to hold its breath or by tits nails, is because

:34:19.:34:23.

your party has opposed a 3-line whip to vote for Article 50. -- by its

:34:24.:34:33.

nails. If it fails to get its way, that will be down to your party.

:34:34.:34:43.

Yes. That is the best answer I have had in weeks. Is it not fair to say

:34:44.:34:46.

that Jeremy Corbyn is between a rock and a hard place on this? He opposes

:34:47.:34:51.

a 3-line whip and he gets to rebellion and we all say, he cannot

:34:52.:34:56.

even do that! If he does not propose a 3-line whip, we will say that on

:34:57.:35:00.

this vital issue, the biggest issue that Britain has had to take, you

:35:01.:35:04.

have not even got a policy. I would suggest that no matter who is leader

:35:05.:35:07.

of the Labour Party at the moment, this would be a real problem. I

:35:08.:35:11.

agree with that. It is an unpalatable decision, like any

:35:12.:35:16.

decision would be horrible for different reasons. And that speaks

:35:17.:35:21.

to Labour's problem trying to bridge its voters who are in both remain

:35:22.:35:28.

and leave camps. But I think that a lot of this would be avoided by the

:35:29.:35:32.

Labour Party having a much clearer tone on the kind of Brexit that it

:35:33.:35:37.

wants. And that come through. There are not many things they could do

:35:38.:35:43.

about policy. There is no white paper, no plan. But a lot of it

:35:44.:35:47.

relies on optics and tone. And I am not sure, I am not convinced that is

:35:48.:35:51.

something the party is getting right at the moment. What do you make of

:35:52.:35:58.

this, Peter? It is quite funny that Jeremy Corbyn, often derided as on

:35:59.:36:02.

the edge of madness, has done something so sensible, and is now

:36:03.:36:04.

being opposed by people whose attitude seems to be little short of

:36:05.:36:08.

crazy. The British public have voted to leave the European Union and any

:36:09.:36:12.

party which publicly stands to defy that decision is putting itself in a

:36:13.:36:18.

position of derision, and use and we cannot do that. However you want to

:36:19.:36:23.

oppose what has happened in the referendum, saying that we do not

:36:24.:36:26.

accept this result and we will carry on sulking until you give us another

:36:27.:36:33.

cake is not going to work. Jeremy Corbyn's decision was the only

:36:34.:36:38.

conceivable move. And these poorer desperate playwrights have seen

:36:39.:36:41.

their raison d'etre seized by the Conservative Party, because they do

:36:42.:36:45.

not know what to do. I think they should join the Conservative Party.

:36:46.:36:50.

I am not holding my breath for that. Sensible thing is so seldom happen

:36:51.:36:53.

but it would be the right thing. I understand that and that is your

:36:54.:36:58.

view. Owen Smith, Labour has some crucial by-elections coming up on

:36:59.:37:03.

that the 23rd, we will be live bringing the results to you. I want

:37:04.:37:09.

to run you a clip from Jeremy Corbyn, which is to do with the

:37:10.:37:14.

Copeland constituency in the North West of England. This is what he had

:37:15.:37:15.

to say. Do you support the building

:37:16.:37:16.

of a new nuclear power plant There's going to be a mix of energy

:37:17.:37:19.

production in this country for a long time to come,

:37:20.:37:23.

because we haven't invested in renewables at the same

:37:24.:37:25.

rate that Germany has. The issue at Moorside

:37:26.:37:27.

is clearly important. Our local candidate

:37:28.:37:30.

strongly supports Moorside. You say your candidate supports it,

:37:31.:37:33.

my question was do you support it? I recognise that there has

:37:34.:37:36.

to be a mix of energy You're saying you don't

:37:37.:37:39.

support Moorside? The Government is going to have

:37:40.:37:41.

to make that decision on the basis of the issues facing the company

:37:42.:37:48.

and the area at the time, That was on ITV yesterday. Owen

:37:49.:38:02.

Smith, in the Copeland constituency you have a very small majority and

:38:03.:38:06.

nuclear power is an enormous issue. A lot of jobs depend on it. There is

:38:07.:38:11.

talk of a new nuclear power station they are, as you have heard. The

:38:12.:38:14.

leader of the Labour Party could not really and the question because his

:38:15.:38:18.

long-standing view has been that he is against such things. -- answer

:38:19.:38:23.

the question. And in Stoke, the other radio or you are defending a

:38:24.:38:28.

majority, larger but not huge, you have picked a candidate who was

:38:29.:38:32.

enthusiastically pro remain in a constituency which is basically the

:38:33.:38:36.

Brexit capital of the Midlands. Does Labour know what it is doing? I'm

:38:37.:38:41.

not in charge of the Labour Party, Andrew. We know that, you failed on

:38:42.:38:48.

that one. As we all know, I did. And therefore I am just a backbencher so

:38:49.:38:51.

you need to ask people in the current leadership of the Labour

:38:52.:38:54.

Party that question. Are you going to lose Copeland to the Tories and

:38:55.:38:59.

Stoke to Ukip? I hope we're going to win both of those seats and I am

:39:00.:39:02.

going up to Copeland to campaign there in a week or so myself.

:39:03.:39:07.

Nuclear is a very important issue there and the Labour Party's

:39:08.:39:12.

position, my position is that we are pro civil nuclear. There is a very

:39:13.:39:16.

good case for building a new plant there. I know there is huge support

:39:17.:39:19.

for it locally and I'm sure we be on the doorstep doing delete my getting

:39:20.:39:23.

our message out there during the campaign. Are you going to stalk as

:39:24.:39:28.

well? Hopefully, if I have time. Surely you must make time, to save

:39:29.:39:34.

this seat for your party. Unfortunately, the Tories are put to

:39:35.:39:36.

the Brexit bill right in the middle of our campaign but I am sure I will

:39:37.:39:40.

go. It also looks like the Tories will not fight Stoke very much and

:39:41.:39:43.

will put their emphasis into Copeland in the hope that if Labour

:39:44.:39:47.

loses in Stoke, it will be to Ukip, and the Tories will try to take

:39:48.:39:52.

Copeland. You have challenged Mr Corbyn once. Even if he loses these

:39:53.:39:59.

two by-elections, which I think would be pretty unprecedented in

:40:00.:40:05.

modern times, in the midterm of a government, for the main opposition

:40:06.:40:09.

party to lose two by-elections. The tradition in our country is that

:40:10.:40:15.

opposition parties win by-elections. Does that threaten Mr Corbyn in

:40:16.:40:20.

anyway or has that horse left the stable? If you mean is that going to

:40:21.:40:25.

be another challenge, I think that horse has left the stable, to borrow

:40:26.:40:30.

your phrase. I see no prospect of that, certainly none of mine doing

:40:31.:40:35.

that -- my doing that. If we lost those seats, they have been Labour

:40:36.:40:40.

seats for the best part of 80, 90, even 100 years in one case. That

:40:41.:40:45.

would be disastrous. But I hope and expect that we will retain them.

:40:46.:40:48.

Owen Smith, thank you for joining us.

:40:49.:40:49.

You could be forgiven for thinking that all the legal wrangling

:40:50.:40:51.

over the UK's departure from the European Union is now over.

:40:52.:40:54.

After all, the Supreme Court brought an end to the long-running Brexit

:40:55.:40:57.

case on Tuesday with its judgement that only Parliament, not ministers,

:40:58.:41:00.

can trigger Article 50 - the formal method of kicking off

:41:01.:41:03.

But as of today a new legal challenge is underway.

:41:04.:41:06.

A case has been filed with the Irish High Court

:41:07.:41:08.

about whether Article 50 is reversible or, as some

:41:09.:41:10.

In other words, you can turn it back.

:41:11.:41:24.

The litigants are hoping that the case will be referred

:41:25.:41:26.

to the European Court of Justice and that judges there will rule that

:41:27.:41:30.

even after Article 50 has been triggered we could,

:41:31.:41:32.

in theory, just change our mind and maybe even decide to stay

:41:33.:41:35.

When the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU,

:41:36.:41:41.

David Davis, appeared in front of the Brexit Select Committee last

:41:42.:41:46.

month, he said that even he didn't know whether Article 50

:41:47.:41:49.

As recently as October, at least one head of government was saying,

:41:50.:42:00.

And many of the others still feel it can't really happen.

:42:01.:42:07.

So that's partly the sort of mindset that's still...

:42:08.:42:09.

As we get further into this, once we've served the Article 50 letter,

:42:10.:42:14.

one of the virtues of the Article 50 process is it sets you on the way.

:42:15.:42:18.

It's very, very difficult to see it being revoked.

:42:19.:42:20.

It may not be revocable, I don't know.

:42:21.:42:23.

And I expect at least at that point people's calculation will change

:42:24.:42:33.

from "How can we make them change their minds?"

:42:34.:42:36.

And we've been joined by Jolyon Maugham, one of the people

:42:37.:42:44.

bringing the case in Dublin, and by Gunnar Beck from

:42:45.:42:46.

Lawyers for Britain - a pro-Brexit campaign group.

:42:47.:42:48.

One thing our viewers will want to know first of all, why Dublin?

:42:49.:42:56.

Because the essence of the complaint is that by excluding the United

:42:57.:43:02.

Kingdom from cancel meetings in advance of serving Article 50

:43:03.:43:07.

notice, the United Kingdom has been disadvantaged. That is a complaint

:43:08.:43:12.

that can only be taken in the courts of the countries that have

:43:13.:43:15.

disadvantaged the United Kingdom so you are looking at the remaining 27

:43:16.:43:20.

courts and of them, Ireland is the natural choice, similar legal

:43:21.:43:25.

system, same operating language, and also Irish courts are very

:43:26.:43:28.

accustomed to dealing with the court of justice in Luxembourg. That

:43:29.:43:34.

explains Dublin. What is it that you hope to establish? Well, look, this

:43:35.:43:38.

is a very, very uncertain world we live in. Donald Trump has come on

:43:39.:43:43.

Andy he is changing everything. He is talking about Nato being obsolete

:43:44.:43:47.

and we are going to see a whole new trade arrangement. Let me accept the

:43:48.:43:53.

uncertain that, what are you hoping to achieve? What I want is a free

:43:54.:43:59.

option for the United Kingdom on hasta siding with the benefit of

:44:00.:44:02.

further evidence that remaining is the right thing for the country. So

:44:03.:44:11.

the government could change its mind and the process of the Article 50

:44:12.:44:16.

negotiations? The government, as always, will be led by what the

:44:17.:44:20.

electorate wanted to do. And if the electorate changes its views about

:44:21.:44:23.

Brexit, then the government will follow. There are many MPs who

:44:24.:44:29.

accept that the result of the referendum requires that we trigger

:44:30.:44:33.

Article 50, but who still have doubts about the wisdom of that

:44:34.:44:37.

course. If they hear loud and strong from voters that that is the right

:44:38.:44:41.

thing to do, I'm sure they will put pressure on the government. The

:44:42.:44:43.

issue in dispute here is whether that would be legal or not. Does it

:44:44.:44:47.

not make sense to establish the legality of that? Well, the fact of

:44:48.:44:55.

the matter is that at present we simply have not got a dispute. The

:44:56.:45:02.

British government have voted to leave the European Union, and the

:45:03.:45:06.

supreme court has stated that it is up to Parliament and the onus is on

:45:07.:45:13.

Parliament to confirm that vote. Once that has happened, Article 50

:45:14.:45:20.

is entirely clear that the United Kingdom will notify its intention to

:45:21.:45:25.

withdraw. Do you believe Article 50 is

:45:26.:45:36.

irrevocable or not? It proceeds on the assumption that when a country

:45:37.:45:39.

notifies its intention to withdraw it means what it says. You think it

:45:40.:45:49.

is irrevocable? It proceeds on the assumption that a country means what

:45:50.:45:54.

it says, just as when any country applies to join the European Union,

:45:55.:45:58.

negotiations for accession are conducted on the basis that that

:45:59.:46:07.

country too means what it says. The man credited with writing

:46:08.:46:11.

Article 50 told the BBC that Article 50 is not irrevocable, if the

:46:12.:46:14.

country was to decide we do not want to leave after all, everybody would

:46:15.:46:19.

be very cross but legally they could not insist. Article 50 does not

:46:20.:46:23.

provide any support for that view. In any event the issue has not

:46:24.:46:28.

risen. Legally speaking, the situation is entirely clear. The

:46:29.:46:33.

Court of Justice has ruled more than 30 years ago that it will not accept

:46:34.:46:37.

references on entirely hypothetical questions. The question not whether

:46:38.:46:47.

the UK wants to reassess its intention to withdraw hasn't arisen

:46:48.:46:52.

yet, we haven't got a dispute, the European Court of Justice shouldn't

:46:53.:46:54.

even look at that. I understand that is your point.

:46:55.:47:01.

Jolyon Maugham, the judgment and as a bream Court of Article 50, it said

:47:02.:47:06.

it cannot be given in qualified or conditional terms and that once

:47:07.:47:09.

given it cannot be withdrawn. That would seem to be something of an

:47:10.:47:14.

Exocet through your case? It would be a powerful Exocet if it was a

:47:15.:47:18.

good point, but it is not. Are you saying the Supreme Court has not

:47:19.:47:23.

made a good point?! Whoever has given you that quote has given you a

:47:24.:47:28.

bad point. I will explain why. If you look at paragraph 26 of the

:47:29.:47:33.

Supreme Court decision, it says very clearly we're not deciding whether

:47:34.:47:37.

Article 50 is bookable, the Government and the claimants both

:47:38.:47:40.

phones are politically convenient to proceed on the assumption that it

:47:41.:47:45.

was but we're not deciding the point -- we're not deciding if article 50

:47:46.:47:56.

is revocable. Rachel? I think it is great, it is one thing to accept the

:47:57.:48:00.

democratic votes, and the public as to respect that, but it raises all

:48:01.:48:04.

kinds of constitutional questions, and I think it is great that we have

:48:05.:48:09.

a system that works, that we have checks and balances on Parliament

:48:10.:48:13.

that work, that is a good thing and we should celebrate that. Peter? It

:48:14.:48:19.

is a good diversion. The serious opponents of our departure from the

:48:20.:48:24.

European Union really need to stop thinking -- start thinking in a

:48:25.:48:28.

broader way. I don't want to offer advice or help them but it would

:48:29.:48:31.

seem to me that they have a much better prospect of frustrating

:48:32.:48:34.

departure from the EU by salami slicing it so much June the

:48:35.:48:40.

negotiations in Parliament but what we end up with is that we move from

:48:41.:48:44.

being as we are now, half-out of the European Union, to being half in it,

:48:45.:48:48.

which would seem the most likely result. These legal diversion seem

:48:49.:48:55.

to be trading on the success of the Supreme Court, which was notable but

:48:56.:48:59.

did not make much difference to the outcome of events, trying to divert

:49:00.:49:03.

us from the centre of this, the negotiations between this country

:49:04.:49:07.

and the EU, and what Parliament then with those, which still seems to be

:49:08.:49:11.

in a great deal of doubt. Do you really think there was a

:49:12.:49:15.

cat's chance in hell that the Government will change its mind? The

:49:16.:49:20.

Government is a political creature, if people change their minds, the

:49:21.:49:25.

Government bill. I think it is a very, very real possibility. I

:49:26.:49:29.

recognise what the political mood is today. I am not stupid, I read the

:49:30.:49:37.

papers, I listen to you, I watch the Daily Politics religiously, of

:49:38.:49:42.

course. But I also believe that the world is changing fast, I believe

:49:43.:49:45.

there is a lot of evidence for what Brexit means that we are still get

:49:46.:49:49.

to see, we don't even have a white paper and I think it is very, very

:49:50.:49:54.

plausible that people will revise their views, and if they do, the

:49:55.:49:59.

Government will fly. Is it your view that Dublin High Court is likely to

:50:00.:50:04.

pass this to the European Court, or do you feel that the Dublin court

:50:05.:50:10.

will throw it out? That is for the Dublin court to decide. It should

:50:11.:50:14.

throw it out, I think the law is quite clear that we have a

:50:15.:50:18.

hypothetical question, it may be interesting, but a hypothetical

:50:19.:50:21.

question should not be referred, that is quite simple. Can we all

:50:22.:50:26.

come to Dublin and watch this unfold? I will buy you a pint. I

:50:27.:50:31.

thought you were going to buy my ticket, the BBC will not!

:50:32.:50:34.

Fans of political TV dramas have feasted on some great

:50:35.:50:36.

series in recent years - from the US remake of House

:50:37.:50:39.

Who would ever have thought that Danish coalition building could

:50:40.:50:47.

become so popular in Britain? Now the Dutch are getting

:50:48.:50:49.

in on the act with a political drama set in the heart of the EU's

:50:50.:50:52.

Brussels HQ. The kind of show covering

:50:53.:51:04.

treating... Treaty negotiations on trade deals, can it ever get the

:51:05.:51:06.

pulses racing? Year is a clip. And because it is an idea,

:51:07.:51:08.

we should be willing to welcome any nation which is special enough

:51:09.:51:12.

to share our values. This is my empire. It has my

:51:13.:51:50.

attention and I'm not even sure what it is about yet!

:51:51.:51:52.

We can talk now to the series writer, Leon de Winter,

:51:53.:51:55.

That is in the Netherlands, of course. What story are you trying to

:51:56.:52:04.

tell, what is the narrative? The narrative... Of course, the

:52:05.:52:08.

background is politics, Brussels, but what is politics? The art of

:52:09.:52:14.

balancing what you wish for, what is necessary and what is possible. It

:52:15.:52:18.

depends upon the characters which one of these three elements is most

:52:19.:52:23.

important to them. Basically you could say every story is about these

:52:24.:52:28.

three elements. The main thing is, let us say, the original idea is

:52:29.:52:35.

nothing to do with politics. We know what original sin is, the oldest

:52:36.:52:41.

profession, the oldest lie in my definition is a female light, who is

:52:42.:52:44.

the father of your child. In which case -- in this case the woman

:52:45.:52:48.

becomes an EU commissioner, had an affair 25 years ago with a young,

:52:49.:52:52.

up-and-coming Russian politician who is now a billionaire and they are

:52:53.:52:59.

both in Brussels, they are conferences, they have their

:53:00.:53:03.

interests and the rest speaks for itself.

:53:04.:53:11.

In house of cards and even in Borgen there was a clear good guy and bad

:53:12.:53:16.

guy, who is the good guy in this series? I have always problems of

:53:17.:53:23.

defining good and bad guy. Maybe you know them, the good guys and the bad

:53:24.:53:31.

guys? I am afraid I couldn't work with these stereotypes. Even the

:53:32.:53:39.

Russian billionaire who is in Brussels talking to his friends in

:53:40.:53:43.

the commission, in parliaments, trying to arrange the best deal for

:53:44.:53:49.

his interests, even he has interesting aspects, even he is not

:53:50.:53:53.

completely evil. And the Dutch Euro Commissioner, the female

:53:54.:53:59.

protagonist, she should be the hero but she is a stuff, and an alpha

:54:00.:54:07.

woman. We know alpha males, this is an alpha female. It is not clear-cut

:54:08.:54:13.

bad, evil, there are many grades of grey and colours, as you know.

:54:14.:54:18.

Absolutely right, and all the best series... What is noticeable about

:54:19.:54:22.

TV drama now, because it is allowed to breathe, it deals in shades of

:54:23.:54:27.

grey now, not black and white. House of Cards had the advantage that it

:54:28.:54:34.

was all based around a position, a person, a pinnacle of power that we

:54:35.:54:37.

all know, the president of the United States. We are not quite sure

:54:38.:54:44.

the pinnacles of power in Brussels, what is the pinnacle of power, what

:54:45.:54:50.

is this all revolving around? All revolving is, of course, the

:54:51.:54:54.

confrontation between interest, ambitions, ego. They fight to gain

:54:55.:55:04.

position, to be wealthy. And people told me even about sex. Yes. Dear

:55:05.:55:11.

me! Things like that happen, I was surprised as well ex-commissioner

:55:12.:55:16.

sex in Brussels?! No wonder this is fiction! The big question we want to

:55:17.:55:23.

know here, in this series, do the British get a punishment beating? I

:55:24.:55:32.

had already finished writing the screenplay, suddenly there is a

:55:33.:55:38.

Brexit and I talk about 28 nations in my story. So should I take one

:55:39.:55:45.

out?! No, let us say it is a bit of an historical series, because I

:55:46.:55:50.

could not see that that was going to happen.

:55:51.:55:54.

Leon, I think it sounds great. The big question is when and where do we

:55:55.:55:58.

see it in the United Kingdom? Well, of course it is produced for a

:55:59.:56:05.

Dutch streaming platform, one of the biggest productions ever in the

:56:06.:56:09.

Netherlands. I would be very shocked if it would not be shown in the UK.

:56:10.:56:16.

Quite right. I will have a word with the director-general of the BBC, we

:56:17.:56:22.

are very close, you know? I met him in 1961, leave it to me! Leon de

:56:23.:56:27.

Winter, good luck with the show, I will seek it out on the web even if

:56:28.:56:31.

it is not shown here, but I'm sure it will be. Thank you for joining

:56:32.:56:33.

us. It started with news of a rogue

:56:34.:56:34.

Trident missile and ended with Theresa May's meeting

:56:35.:56:37.

with Donald Trump. Here's Adam with the lowdown

:56:38.:56:39.

on the political week Theresa May launched her modern

:56:40.:56:43.

industrial strategy on Monday by taking her Cabinet to Warrington,

:56:44.:56:48.

but that was overshadowed by a row over whether she should have told

:56:49.:56:51.

MPs a Trident missile test had All eyes were on the Supreme Court

:56:52.:56:54.

on Tuesday where Lord Neuberger lay The Supreme Court rules

:56:55.:57:02.

that the Government cannot trigger Article 50 without an act

:57:03.:57:06.

of Parliament On Wednesday, Theresa May

:57:07.:57:07.

announced there would be And on Thursday the Government

:57:08.:57:15.

published its one-page Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to back

:57:16.:57:20.

the bill, prompting Tulip Siddique And the Prime Minister jetted off

:57:21.:57:33.

to the States to meet President Donald Trump,

:57:34.:57:39.

saying opposites attract. It's going to be beautiful,

:57:40.:57:41.

just beautiful! There's just time before we go

:57:42.:57:55.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, which foreign

:57:56.:58:00.

leader has cancelled a meeting President Hollande of France,

:58:01.:58:03.

President Raul Castro of Cuba, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

:58:04.:58:07.

of Scotland or President Enrique Rachel, Peter - what's

:58:08.:58:10.

the correct answer? President Enrique Pena Nieto, via

:58:11.:58:27.

Twitter. Correct. You beat me to it. I was going to get it, I had no

:58:28.:58:32.

idea, I am not on Twitter. Good place. Mexico has elections coming

:58:33.:58:37.

up in a couple of years, this will play big-time into it, we will see

:58:38.:58:38.

how that works out. Thanks to Rachel, Peter

:58:39.:58:39.

and all my guests. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:40.:58:42.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back on Sunday

:58:43.:58:45.

with the Sunday Politics - The clue is in the name! I will be

:58:46.:58:47.

talking to Nigel Farage. Should've seen Hillary's face.

:58:48.:58:55.

She was stood there with Bill.

:58:56.:59:15.

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