Najib Ghadbian, Syrian Opposition Consultative Council Member HARDtalk

speech on behalf of a charity. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

His Syria in the throes of a revolution? More than 1,000 people

are said to have been killed in the Government's response to protests.

But the rebellion has not been crushed. Here are the organisers

and activists of the street revolt? What do they want? My guest today

is Najib Ghadbian. She is a member of the newly-formed Syrian

Opposition Consultative Council. What would happen if President

Assad went? It would chaos follow? Najib Ghadbian, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you for having me. Let's start with the latest reports on

the grounds of Syria. We're not allowed into Syria but reports

suggest there is a huge amount of tension around a northern town.

What are you hearing? We're hearing a couple of things. Firstly there

is a mass movement of people are afraid they will be it revenge from

the authorities. They left towns and are at the border. Numbers

estimate between 1015 hundred. They're mostly on the Syrian side

of the border. Some Irene Turkey. We have been able to talk to some

of them but we're losing contact. They started increasing. Let's get

this straight. The BBC has been told that the Government says 120

security personnel were massacred by armed gangs in that northern

town. Are you saying that did not happen? We very much question the

story of the armed gangs. We have soldiers -- stories of soldiers who

had been killed. We believe this is because they opened fire on

demonstrators or they defected. We have 21 documented cases of

protesters killed. Most of soldiers to have been killed have been by

security forces for refusing to carry out orders. The Syrian

government has provided the names, the background to the dozens and

dozens of security force personnel who they say have been killed by

armed gangs and extremists. Given the level of detail it does seem

they must be some truth behind the notion that some of the protesters,

the opposition forces, have arms and day using them. We know that

some people have arms but so far they have shown great restraint.

One of the strengths of the revolution is that it is peaceful.

But you know that a substantial number of protesters have access to

weapons. Some people in towns do have personal weapons, like pistols

and rifles. There has been talking up arms coming over the border, for

example by Turkey. What we're have here is a professional army. Then

we have this elite unit recruited by individuals loyal to the regime.

It is these elite units that are being carried out -- carrying out

most of the killings, not the regular Army. We have the story of

a soldier who was brave enough to say that he was witness to two

massacres. It is very difficult for you to know what is going on, just

as it is for me. You're based in the United States and are now very

involved with the precedent reformists. The fact is you are a

long way from the action. How can you be sure that the information

you are receiving it is not manipulated? What is happening, by

not allowing independent media access to Syria, which we would

like. Remember that Egypt was a televised resolution -- revolution.

The young people here are very savvy with technology a video

taping what is happening on the ground. They send them to ask. This

is the only way for us to spread the word. Many people watching this

will the scene graphic images of bodies and security force and now -

- personnel beating protesters. But it is easy to manipulate stories

and 40. But let's look at the case of the gay girl in Damascus. That

was her blog title. It has become unclear whether this apparently

brave woman actually existed. There is a? About that. She does exist. I

know colleagues to know her as a person. I do not know her

personally. How do you explain that the US embassy in Damascus says

they have no record of her? I do not have this detail but it is not

in our interests to exaggerate news. We do not need to do that. The

facts and the figures speak for themselves. Let's talk about these

stories of the tortured boy. A 13- year-old boy he was involved in a

protest. His badly brutalised body was returned to his family later in

May. What they asked the family to do is buried the body right away.

But they called someone with a video camera to tell the story.

This is to prevent further brutality and killings. We do not

need to make up anything. The regime is carrying out all for

crimes. But just to be clear about this, you're not denying that

protesters have access to some weapons? If they have access -- i

using weapons, do you think that is justifiable? People have the right

to defend themselves. But they are making a conscious decision not to

do that. One of the strategies of the regime is to instigate a

violent attack on the security forces. You have dismissed the

notion that extremists and savage showers with help from the outside

are at the heart of the movement. But this is what you wrote in

September. You said that the response of the regime at towards

the movement were likely to push people towards extremism. That is

what you wrote. Yes, but some -- things change. This revolution is a

continuation of the Arabs spring. We were surprised at how quickly

the youth of Syria responded to the movement. They decided to follow

the peaceful model. Even the Muslim Brotherhood have embraced and

emphasise the peaceful nature of this revolution. In Syria it is

important to remind people there were at clashes between the Muslim

Brotherhood and the regime in the 1980s. Because the Muslim

Brotherhood carried out violence that enabled the regime to carry

out violent reprisals. So the Muslim Brotherhood and more

extremist Islamic figures are not significant players? None of the

traditional political parties are very active. This is a movement

made up of young people here are not politicised. They are a product

of social media. They watched what happened in other countries and

decided to take things into their own hands. You are outside and

these people you cannot -- characterise as the heart of the

movement are inside. Just a few days ago you were involved in a

meeting of dissidents and exiles of the regime in Turkey. When you put

together a council at 31 and talked about this being a forum for

national opposition how it that can be credible because you, for

example, a well-established in the United States and not well known in

Syria? All of us are in touch with colleagues inside. Before we did

that meeting we did some coordination. We did not want to

claim we carried the revolution because the inside is not ready. We

want the people who are leading activities on the ground to form

their own representative body. Once they do that we can talk to them

and form something more represented will -- representative. That is

part of the problem. The difference between in Europe. -- Egypt. In

Egypt it was relatively easy for people to gather together in the

open. That is not possibility -- possible in Syria. In Syria

political opposition is not allowed. There is a law that makes

membership of the Muslim Brotherhood punishable by death so

you have to find ways to be able to be active and continue to survive.

We took good vintage -- advantage of new media so there is contact

between the outside and inside. not entirely convinced by new media

being responsible for everything. The numbers of people who have come

out on the streets in Syria have numbered in the thousands, possibly

close to 10,000. But think about other countries where they were

hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. A fundamentally

different sort of public protest. The reason is as people try to get

out, they am met by snipers. In Egypt, they were allowed opposition,

they were allowed independent media. None of that exists in Syria.

By it we are talking about Damascus being the most important political

centre in the country. We have not seen demonstrations, only

occasionally in the suburbs. Frankly, the capital of Syria has

been free of the sort of political protest you want to see. That is

not accurate. We have seen a substantial demonstrations in the

walled town of Damascus. Damascus is two provinces. The city and the

suburbs. Inside the town it is happening now. Each demonstrator is

the equivalent to 10,000 in the other cases because in the other

cases, they were not allowed to demonstrate. Only if you tried to

instigate the security forces you would be met with violence. Take

Egypt, the whole revolution, I mean only 300 or so in the beginning and

later 800 were killed. In Syria, over 1,000 have been killed and we

have the names of those. The dynamics are different. Why are we

seeing no signs of the President Assad regime splintering? We saw

officials distancing themselves in Tunisia and Egypt and it is not

happening in Syria. This is likely to happen in an advanced stage. We

encouraged that very much and we always appeal because we believe

there are patriotic people within the regime will will not approve of

the brutality carried out, particularly by the security forces.

One of those in the military. At one point, the military must make a

decision. Will they want to side with the President who will go down

Ed is carrying out the last stage or will they -- support of the

Democratic side of Syria? But when one compares it with Egypt, you

have called for the President to go and do called for the vice-

president to take power for the transitional phase before a

democratic process can be organised. But will that the reality. The

vice-president carries no real weight at all. We all know the

power lays with President Assad and his family. The fact is, there is

no a transitional authority that would have credibility. It is more

challenging, you are right. But there some institutions in Syria

that could play a role in the transitional period. One of those

is the army and the other is the government. There is something

called a cabinet and the Prime Minister and the People's Council.

While they are not representative and they act like rappers -- a

rubber-stamp to the President's decisions but if they decide to,

they could play a role. It seems to be a pretty desperate statement for

a significant player in the opposition to say he wants the army

takeover given it is the same army accused of causing the deaths of

over 1,000 people? We believe the main pressure on the regime other

demonstrations. They will play the major role in overthrowing the

regime. What we want to do is make the transition as peaceful as

possible. So we are opening the way for other institutions and people

to join the rebels. You are in London and you are brought -- you

are lobbying politicians, including some in Moscow, to put more

pressure on Damascus and the President. Are you disappointed

with the international reaction? That we be positive. I want you to

be honest. The statement by the French Prime Minister of the day

before yesterday, one of the things we expect is to isolate them

diplomatically. We want a referral from the Security Council to the

ICC. We have not got a Matt. have not even got a new Security

Council resolution. The draft is sitting there and it seemed clear

that Moscow is intent on blocking it using the veto if necessary.

we want to everything possible to talk to them, get the information

to them and tell them it is in your interest to finally signed over to

the people. But it would only be of symbolic value anyway. They are

talking about condemnation of the violence they have seen and are

clearly gaining the authorities and demanding immediate cessation. They

want humanitarian authorities to be allowed in. All of that is good but

it will not actually address the fundamental problem you have which

is the President Assad regime is still strong and intent on staying

in power and the international community is not prepared to do

anything about it, unlike in Libya. But what we want to say is the

regime has been isolated already. There are sanctions in place.

they are symbolic sanctions but will not bring the regime down.

people of Syria will bring the regime down. This is important. We

do not expect to the international community to do it on our behalf

but we want them to take on responsibilities. In the case of

Libya, those countries took an early response and I believe if

they do take these actions now, that may prevent further killing

and further repression, this significance of the effort rather

than believing that these motions will bring down the regime. But is

it not true that Tony Blair put it plainly himself just hours ago,

that the cautious international response to the Syria situation is

based on a profound fear of what would come after her President

Assad? They say if they are sad regime -- they say if the present

Assad regime collapses, it would be difficult to figure out what would

ensue? We are trying to tell the world we have a plan and strategy.

We know what the reality is in Syria and we see a community that

frankly could fall into secretarian -- strife. We look at neighbouring

countries like Iraq and we see Syria as a typical place in the

Middle East where there is a profound danger of a spiral into

chaos. But in the 11th week we have not seen any sign of

demonstrators... We have seen demonstrators emphasising national

unity. The first individual victims were Christians. It started in the

areas closest to these areas. We believe the events of their 80s...

But there is deep concern in Washington in the EU and deep

concern in Israel. A respected former peace negotiated for the

Israelis says in foreign policy magazines that is where he's aware

of the alternatives in Damascus and in discussions, they have been

rooting for the Devil. That is their position but we want to say

that what will emerge is a non- Devil, a democratic system, that is

more representative of Syria, more responsible regional,

internationally and that is why it is in everybody's interest to

support this alternative. My second point is we are working to create

structures. We are talking about Syrians everywhere, civic

communities everywhere, coming together in a way I have never seen

before. All components of Syrian society. In this state, they are

carrying out a weekly demonstrations, collecting money to

help. They are all united and this is what makes us believe it will

happen. We are part of the whole plan in the Middle East to make it

a more democratic region. So we are very hopeful. I feel the positivity

but do you really believe it would -- you will win and bring President

Assad down? Absolutely. In no time in my life and the young people of

Syria, we talk to them, they are more optimistic. But we have seen

big moments before in Syria, not least around their 80s, which ended

in terrible bloodshed and paying for so many Syrians. We then saw

the Damascus Spring and we saw the declaration in fife mac and the

hope that they meet -- that may lead to fundamental reform.

weakness with the Damascus situation, they did not have mass

support at the time. It was more intellectual. Now it is the young

people in the street who are under the age of 20 and are about 60% of

the Syrian population who are taking to the streets. They are