Cecilia Malmstrom HARDtalk

Now it is time for HARDtalk. The European Union is in the middle

of a profound crisis of confidence, and it is not just about sovereign

debt and the future of the Eurozone. There is also a striking lack of

unity and trust within the EU when it comes to issues of immigration,

border security and social policy. I talk to the EU commissioner

responsible for home affairs, Cecilia Malmstrom. Is nationalism

re-emerging as the driving force of European politics?

Cecilia Malmstrom, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Do you accept

that the faith of the European public Indo-European Union and its

institutions is at a very low ebb? Yes, I think we have to accept that.

Also that the public in general seems to be a bit sceptical about

their politicians all over Europe and other places in the world as

well. We are in a difficult moment. Politicians are not held very high.

No doubt about that. In Europe there is a particular focus on the

eurozone, deep instability when it comes to get across many nations. -

- debt. As Angela Merkel said, this is not just about the future of the

euro, it is about the future of the European Union. You accept that?

May be I would not have put it that dramatically, but it is a big

crisis. We need to get our back together and show that Europe is

taking a stronger grip on the crisis -- get our act together.

spreads, it is about confidence. I am talking about you - you're

portfolio is in home affairs. Would you accept that this crisis of

confidence has a knock-on effect in the portfolio with which you deal

day to day? Oh, definitely. My portfolio is very much about trust.

About us trusting the other countries and the rest of us to

protect the border, take a joint responsibility when it comes to

migration, fighting organised crime etc. You can have all the

legislation in the world, but if trust does not exist it is hard to

move forward. At the moment trust is lacking. I could not have put it

better myself. You are stealing the thunder from my next question. It

seems to me that if you do not have trust then when it comes to border

security, for example, the system that the EU has in place simply

falls apart. It is put under threat - that is why it is so important

not to give in to these forces that put them into question so we go

backwards. If the European Union were to fall apart and we were all

responsible for our own a border patrol and dealing with migration,

having 27 different currencies - we would be in trouble. We need to

show the benefits and the value of working together. It is not a

question of hypothetical stash you're saying we "would" be in

trouble. Look at events in North Africa, in particular the fact that

tens of thousands of refugees are trying to leave North Africa to get

inside the European Union. We have seen the impact of that - we have

seen the French working with the Italian government, in essence, it

rewriting the rules of the agreement. Do you think that was

the wrong thing for Paris and Rome to do? They did not rewrite the

agreement, but they have been stretching the rules. This has been

dominating the agenda from my part. To make sure we have a regulation

that is clear. It is clear that we do not allow member states to

unilaterally changed the rules. With respect, it is not clear at

all - they did, in effect, change the rules. As I understand it there

is now 80 facto agreement in place that has expanded the conditions

under which countries can impose border control -- de facto. They

interpreted the rules - they stretched them, but they did not

violate them. It was a violation of the spirit of the rules, but not

technically a legal violation. This shows we need to be more specific

on how far you can stretch them. We will come to that proposal later in

September.Dancing on the head of a pin, aren't you? They decided to

ignore what was clearly the prevalent interpretation of the

rules. They stretch the rules, as I said. This is unfortunate. We have

seen it on many occasions now. You have seen it in Denmark and other

areas. That is why it is important to look at the rules together and

discuss it so that France and Italy and Denmark - and many fear that

this is going to lead to a situation that we do not want.

There are also forces fighting against this. No doubt there are

forces. I am looking at a quote from the former Belgian leader who

has said that France and Italy are imposing new border patrols.... He

said that the Italians and the French are acting as if the EU did

not exist anymore. That is why we need to... We have had long

discussions with the member states and the majority of the member

states have been critical and are asking for a clarification of the

rules and better evaluation systems. We can identify the shortcomings in

these countries. And new border controls have been imposed on the

Swedes and the Germans - they have new lines where vehicles have to

pass, customs officials using X- rays to see if illegal guns or a

cash or drugs are being taken into Denmark - precisely because they do

not trust that the current system can stop organised crime bringing

these things into Denmark from Eastern Europe or somewhere else?

We are in very close dialogue with the Danish authority. Not all of

that is in place yet. We have questioned the background of this -

you are allowed to make certain controls but they have to be made

on intelligence. They have to beat credibly motivated. We have asked a

lot of questions of the Danish government and they must answer all

of them in September. If we do not get satisfactory answers we might

need to go further. You are painting a picture of uncertainty.

You're saying the key decisions will have to be taken in the autumn

about border controls. What are you going to do in the next few weeks?

We see unpredictable situations in Libya. We see thousands of people

trying to flee north Africa. That could become a bigger tied over the

next few weeks. What are you emergency contingency plans? If I

could solve all of those problems that would be great. We are trying

to assist member state as best as we can. You have to remember that

more than one million people have left Libya. So far only around

20,000 of them have come to Europe. We need to put things in proportion.

Tunisians have been coming to Italy - a vast majority of the people

running away from Libya are going to the neighbouring countries. We

are focusing on assisting the neighbouring countries. We are

helping Italy and Malta to deal with the people who come there.

This is something that is not being discussed only in the commission -

every time we meet with the ministers we have discussions how

to deal with this. We are urging them to take responsibility, show

solidarity. Not only greet the democratic changes in Egypt,

Tunisia and the rebels in Libya, but to assist, physically, with the

people coming. We cannot let Tunisia absorb all these people who

are running away... You have been using those sorts of words for the

last six months. Back in March Nicolas Sarkozy called for the EU

to set up emergency camps inside Egypt and Tunisia. He said they

need humanitarian zones with huge camps to house refugees and, in his

words, to provide Europeans with peace of mind. Did you take that

seriously? No, of course not. There are already huge refugee camps. We

are trying to help them with emergency humanitarian assistance.

European countries, including France and the UK have been

assisting in getting third-country nationals from Libya back to their

original country. Thousands of people have been sent back. We are

helping. All countries in Europe are more or less supporting the

NATO action in Libya.... Know, know they are not. That is patently

untrue. Germany, for one... Well, Germany is not. Germany is morally

supporting it even if they are not actively participating. If we say

that the rebels - some countries have even recognised the rebels as

the new legitimate regime, we need to be taking care of these people.

We cannot leave a poor, reforming country like Tunisia, a small

country who is struggling to get to democratic reform, to take care of

these refugees. We have to help. You do - and you keep pointing to

the humanitarian imperative here. Let's be specific. You believe the

Italian government has lived up to its obligations? It is believed

that more than 1,900 North African refugees have died trying to flee

across the Mediterranean this year. Amnesty International says that EU

leaders are intent to from protecting themselves from new

arrivals when they should be trying to prevent people from drowning. I

think she was pointing at the Italians. Do you share that

sentiment? I am appalled by the number of people who have drowned

in the Mediterranean. I must say that Italian and Maltese and these

agencies have done a lot to try and save these people. The

Mediterranean is a big body of water. It is sometimes very

turbulent. Ruthless traffickers put a lot of people in very small boats

and sometimes they do not reach the shore. Italian coastguards have

done a lot to try and assist them. I don't accept the notion that they

have left them there. You talk about the EU agency responsible for

beefing up and monitoring security - some would argue that it has not

worked very well in the Mediterranean. They would certainly

argue that it has not worked very well on the turkey/Greece border

where pretty much half of Europe's illegal immigrants cross into...

While they were there there was a decrease... Temporarily - maybe the

reason they pulled out is because it did not work very well. There

was a decrease at the beginning and then the numbers went up again.

This can only be solved between Greece and Turkey and also by

having a proper border control. If people come and ask for asylum, you

cannot push them away. This is international law. They are not

there to hinder people from coming. They are there to build up a proper

border control and to assist these air, customs, they are not there to

push back people. -- visas. They are there to assist, to detect, to

prevent, if they can - but they cannot push people back - they have

the right to ask for asylum. the nation states in the European

Union have an obligation to have secured borders, do they not?

Greece, for example, - would you say Greece is failing in its basic

Yes. Not on board of control, one reception of asylum seekers. -- not

on board wil board wiler control. We have a lot of money, experts

trying to build up an asylum system that works but also to help them

build up the control of the border. It will take time. As you are of

very familiar, the Greek economy is not the best at the moment.

could say that. The problem is, they have a backlog of at least

60,000 illegal immigrants and they say that the richer nations in

their European Union are not sharing the burden, not help

increase in the right way. Not helping take the Refugees and this

raises the bigger question of whether you can change a mind set

in the European Union which right now is extremely negative when it

comes to the impact of immigration. You are right. It is very difficult.

We have a growing anti migration attitude, N T Migration parties

that higher in the government, close to the government. A -- anti-

migration. Greece has to do its homework. We are helping them,

putting pressure but the appetite in other member states to share the

responsibility with Greece is very little, yes. There is nothing we

can do in the Commission to force them. It is understandable that

this feeling is growing. There is evidence of an increasing negative

view of immigration. It is in the election results, from your own

country, Denmark, France, Italy - the far-right are politically

increasingly strong. You are a Democrat, believe in democracy. You

must presumably believe that there needs to be a response to get tough

on immigration. No, I do not agree with that. Yes there are growing

political parties but they are not in the majority. They are vocal,

very loud but in the minority. They can identify problems but also the

other political parties do that. It is a challenge and in many ways we

have failed. These solutions provided with the extremist parties,

I do not see any reason to agree with that. You are taking one part

of my question. This isn't just about the extremists. David Cameron

said that for too long immigration has been too high. You could not

get a more simple response than that. He is the democratically

elected leader. These are the elected leaders, they can say so

but I also know that there is another part of history, the truth

- migration has been very good for our countries and we need

increasing migration because of democratic. That can be confirmed

by a scientific report. We also ask member states to speak up on this.

They say that they need migrants to fill the jobs, fill the gaps. And I

used suggesting that in Spain where there is a high employment --

unemployment level, they should want to see increased migration to

their country? In is that the commission's message? I am

interested to know. At this time in the European economy with the

political friend we have discussed, you still think the best response

is to tell Europeans to welcome immigration? There is a lot to do.

We have to manage integration, have proper policies. Have a better

distribution of migrants, asylum seekers in the European Union. It

is also a fact confirmed in many scientific reports, by the industry

that we do need for labour migration. That is something that

many leaders say behind doors but dared to speak up to the public.

Spain would not survive a day without Latton American workers who

work in their healthcare sector. -- Latin-American. There to speak up.

That is an interesting phrase. Do you feel that too many leaders are

playing the politics of here with discussions of immigration,

integration, multiculturalism, all of these things that you are in

part responsible for? Member states are responsible for their own

integration policies. We are here to assist them. Many leaders in

Europe are sort of afraid, if you want, of the more nationalist, far

right parties. They do not dare to speak up, yes. Yes there is a

problem but the solution is maybe not to throw them out, close the

borders but the solutions are different and we need to speak

about these. I see very little leaderships. Some of the solutions

focus on saying that multiculturalism has failed and we

need to be much more proactive in our pursuit of integration. I am

thinking of Mr Sarkozy's determination to push through the

for niqab in France. -- full niqab. What does this mean,

multiculturalism has failed Chris - - has failed? I don't understand

what that means. One thing that clearly, Sarkozy has done, get

tough on the Roma. He has sent in forces, repatriated them to other

states. Are you prepared to take on people like Nicholas Sarkozy?

did. It was mainly the responsibility of my colleague. We

did take action, protest. The French changed a lot of their

procedures. You have the right to make people leave your country and

if they are... Sarkozy got away with it. I don't know why you're

saying that he got away with it because he didn't. Not really. They

changed their practices, they with through some of their proposals.

The whole world... It has changed. With your harsh criticism of some

of the European leaders, do you apply that to the murderous rampage

of Anders Breivik in Norway? Your sadness that European leaders were

not prepared to stand up for tolerance, open societies. Did he

feel that European leaders are not responding in a strong enough way?

-- did you feel. The whole world has condemned what he did. The

effect of a very, very sick person's mind. There exists today a

climate where it is perfectly legitimate to express some of the

things that he expressed - multiculturalism has failed, Islam

is dominant, we should preserve the Nordic race. His terrible

shooting... You talk about the climate but it is nationalism, the

politically dominant force in Europe today. Yes. You agree?

many ways, yes. We see it in the economy, in a way, a desire to

control your own borders. It is a growing nationalism and I deplore

that. I am sorry to interrupt, Cecelia Malmstrom, but we have to

leave it there. Thank you for Hello. Clear skies overnight mean a

fresh start to Wednesday. A reasonable amount of bright weather

around for the rest of the day. One or two showers and many of us will

get away with a dry day. The rain pushing into south-west England in

the early parts of the day but most of us will get away with a dry

start. A bit of cloud in the south of Wales but sunshine early on

across Northern Ireland. Feeling

showers around western parts of Scotland but for much of central,

eastern Scotland - after a wet Tuesday it is looking much better.

Dry and sunny through the day. Sunshine across northern England,

into East Anglia. A bit of cloud around in the south-east and it

will thicken up towards south-west England. We are likely to see

patchy outbreaks of rain around Devon, Cornwall. That is a sign of

things to come. Doubt over the extent of the rain. How heavy it

will be. The general idea is that as we go through the day, the

thicker clouicker clouor two outbreaks of rain will extend

across southern England. Not reliably dry by the afternoon. From

the Midlands, north, it will be largely dry. Temperatures into the

high teens, low 20s. Through the evening, bits of rain dying out.

Clear skies across the northern half of the UK. The rain will come

back in again with more purpose during the early part on Thursday.

The treat of heavy rain in the south on Thursday. We're not

exactly sure just how far north the wet will get but a good part of