Browse content similar to Sir William Patey - British Ambassador to Kabul, 2010-2012 (Retired). Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Muslim men and police. -- men and always. It is time for HARDtalk. As | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
the Western military intervention in Afghanistan failed? This | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
question hangs over the summit in Chicago. The political leaders set | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
the seal on a up military retreat while pledging one-term support for | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
the Afghanistan government. I guessed has just retired as British | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
ambassador in Kabul. Did the west misjudge this balance between war | :00:38. | :00:48. | |
:00:48. | :01:13. | ||
Welcome to the show. Until recently you were the British ambassador off | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
in Kabul. No better than anybody the price the British forces are | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
still paying inside Afghanistan. Can you say you still believe | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
that's the price worth paying? obviously a tragedy for any family | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
to lose a loved one. I know that myself. I preferred to write to the | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
families of famine and women who have given our lives. Every time I | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
write to the families I tried once that question is it worth it? My | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
conclusion is yes. I try to get the sense of what it is we have tried | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
to achieve in Afghanistan and the prospect of success. I think we are | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
in line to deliver a withdrawal of British troops and international | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
troops and leave Afghanistan in a state where it can make progress | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
and build itself into a more stable state. Having repeated Al-Qaeda and | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
getting rid of the Taliban. does appear to be a lack of co- | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
ordination and coherence to the strategic vision of the Western | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
powers and its best seen in the different messages and timescales | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
we see when we discuss when to withdraw the forces and how quickly. | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
I do not agree. I was struck by that, the contrast in Iraq where I | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
was the ambassador during a difficult period. There is a level | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
of international coherence. That laid a foundation for agreement to | :02:59. | :03:07. | |
a transition and wider combat troops will be out by 2014. | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
things have changed since then. The US Defence Secretary took everybody | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
by surprise same the US will be out by 2013. Now we have a new | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
President in France, Francois Hollande saying the French will be | :03:23. | :03:31. | |
a soon. He clarified that saying the mission will evolve. It will | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
not be over. We always spoke about 2013 as a milestone. The | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
responsibility for security throughout the country will be | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
taken over by the Afghan troops. That will happen in the middle of | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
2013. The mission will be more a support role. At the end of the | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
combat role that will be 2014. The you're a diplomat. That's a | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
diplomatic answer. Douglas Alexander has used the phrase she - | :04:03. | :04:13. | |
- phrase a disorderly exit. I think we have a plan, the Lisbon plant, | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
it's still in place. Nobody assumes that all of the troops will remain | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
at the same levels right up until December 2014. It was always assume | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
that people would withdraw at different times. Forgive my | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
interruption that you seem to miss my point Which is the politics | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
driving this process. Boy example Australia. A few thousand troops | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
there. Julia Gillard said they will be pulled out a round the time of | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
the next Australian election, the middle of next year. The unpleasant | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
whiff of politics and self interest in this strategy one person said. | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
It's ludicrous to think politics does not play a part. Every country | :05:05. | :05:12. | |
wants to sell its timetable in the best political way for the domestic | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
audience and that is inevitable. But I don't give represents a | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
disorderly retreat. The American troops represent the overwhelming | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
majority of forces they are. Withdrawal will determine the | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
strategy. With all due respect to the other countries, they are part | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
of a broader alliance. Any single country does not defeat this | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
strategy. The Americans have the overwhelming presence. There will | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
be a reduction of troops this year and next year and all troops will | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
be out by 2014. We will stick to the plan. Many countries may | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
deviate a bit. The overall plan is in place. It's dangerous to stick | :06:00. | :06:08. | |
to this plan to remove all forces by 2014 when the Afghan government | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
and the national security forces are not capable as we see it today | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
of stepping into the breach and fulfilling that responsibility. | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
disagree. Maybe not today but we have a plan to give them two more | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
years. But it had this planned for many years and you have always said | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
it with your predecessors and many other top officials at have assured | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
me year by year that things will get better. Look at the record. In | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
the last two years, the record of infiltration by the Taliban and | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
insurgents. See how much worse that is getting. You say nothing has | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
happened. Three years ago at the was hardly anything to speak of. If | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
they said it was fine on afraid that was not. I'm saying that | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
within a few years we will deliver a reliable Afghan security force. | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
would have sent three years ago that within a few years, 2014, they | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
will be an Afghan force capable of maintaining security and taking | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
over from the international forces. Frankly we have only been at this | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
for about three years. The Afghan forces only began being built up | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
about three years ago. It has now reached its peak. That will be | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
knocked over this year. That is police and national forces. It will | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
be a split between them. That will not be set. It will evolve. If | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
there was a political settlement with the Taylor Dent you would need | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
fewer troops. You've just come back from Kabul. Explain to me why so | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
many acts of violence and problems against NATO forces by the forces | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
wearing the uniform of the Afghan National Army for the police? | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
you talking about attacks on NATO? Most of that is done by the Taliban. | :08:10. | :08:19. | |
There are some acts, with 330,000 Afghan troops. The start incidents | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
that have happened this year. is a place where there is conflict | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
and stress and all kinds of disputes and arguments and personal | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
acts to be played out. If you take these troops in contact with | :08:39. | :08:47. | |
coalition troops and the Afghan troops, 16 is not that many. There | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
is people are supposed to be partners. And in interview the | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
other day, he said that we now need to take special precautions | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
whenever we run a joint offer that operation with the Afghans. That is | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
not symptomatic of trust? Any death, green or blue is regrettable. If | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
there are things you can do to avoid this you will do it. That's | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
what he was talking about. Taking special precautions to make sure | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
somebody does arrive. I seen it in Helmand Province. Despite previous | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
incidents, the troops get along very well. Day today, they train | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
together with joint operations and the British troops told me that | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
they have a great deal of respect and admiration for most of the | :09:43. | :09:51. | |
Afghans. It's difficult when you and others need to defend the | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
resources and billions of dollars spent into that Afghan security | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
forces and then you see things like this. This quote from our | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
correspondent in Kabul. He said, the reality is that the Afghan | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
security forces sell their bullets in the marketplace to the highest | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
bidder and that includes the Taliban or other insurgents and we | :10:13. | :10:21. | |
pay for weapons turned up on our own soldiers. The general in | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
Helmand Province is leading troops there and leading the minute into | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
battle and pushing the Taliban out of previously held territory. There | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
are lot of examples of the Afghans stepping up. Nobody will dispute | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
that. There are lot of good troops in the Afghan army but the issue is | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
if there is a fundamental problem with corruption. Corruption inside | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
these forces and inside the Government that issues orders to | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
those security forces which undermines the whole enterprise. | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
Would you except that? Corruption is a huge problem in Afghanistan. | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
It's throughout the country. Is it won of the most important factors | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
in making this enterprise or difficult? I have said many times, | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
unless the Afghans do more to tackle the corruption and more to | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
stem the corruption then the ability to achieve what we want and | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
what they want will become more difficult. We to address that point | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
about the people issuing orders, political waters, to the military | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
commanders, and that they are under a cloud of corruption. The people | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
at the top of the power pyramid in Kabul. The people that you needed | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
to meet with. Would you accept that many of them at the top under a | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
sustained cloud of corruption? at the top, talking about President | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
Karzai, and people around him, I think he tolerates corruption more | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
than he should as the President for political reasons. There's a sense | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
of the balance of power there being maintained. Perhaps he is more | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
reluctant to go after certain people. With that include his own | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
family? He has been quite good at going up his own family. What | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
lessons did you learn about the banking scandal in Kabul. People | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
very close to the top of that pyramid were implicated, politely, | :12:30. | :12:40. | |
:12:40. | :12:40. | ||
the loss of over $900 million. was the theft of $900 million. It | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
was a brazen theft. You know the suspicion points to people very | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
close to the President. Yes, his own brother and the vice- | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
president's brother, they were the beneficiaries of big loans, there | :12:52. | :12:59. | |
could be called dodgy. This is a litmus test. It is still being | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
played out. I have made this clear to the President that how the bank | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
crisis is resolved will be a litmus test for the west in taking this | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
corruption at face value. A number of things have happened. The | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
president's brother and the vice- president's brother have things to | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
answer for and money to repay. Meanwhile they are still running | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
around Kabul with other key players in the scandal doing what they have | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
always done in couple enjoying the good life. The main key players | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
around the house arrest. They may face trial. House arrest means | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
something different in Afghanistan and London. But pick up on this | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
idea that you have faith in President Karzai. Before -- a | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
former US diplomat, after leaving Afghanistan in controversial | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
circumstances said that in his view, as in Kasai's he is emotional and | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
off balance. They can never win their the cause there is | :14:10. | :14:20. | |
:14:20. | :14:26. | ||
I know him well, I would not always agree with his opinions. The | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
mistake to make is assuming that Afghanistan is Hamid Karzai. I | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
think he's doing a good job. But we do not have to rely on him. He will | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
be the president until 2014, then and there will be at a new election. | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
We have to worry about the institutions. We should not invest | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
everything in one man. That man has said he will leave in 2014 and I | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
believe him. There is the question of establishing an inclusive | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
political process and bring those outside the process into it. I am | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
talking about the insurgent movement, the Taliban. I'm getting | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
very mixed messages about whether the Western powers, led by the US, | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
warned a negotiating process, a dialogue with the Taliban or not. | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
Absolutely. I do not think there is a mixed message. The only people | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
who do not wanted are the Taliban. The Americans have made it clear | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
:15:44. | :15:49. | ||
they support an Afghan lead process. They offered the Taliban... We have | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
seen the Obama Administration withdraw the offer to release five | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
Taliban prisoners from Guantanamo Bay. The military in the US is | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
blocking any meaningful negotiation between the US and the Taliban. | :16:11. | :16:21. | |
:16:21. | :16:22. | ||
is wrong. I have dealt closely with General David Petraeus, I put this | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
to him. The world thinks you are against peace and reconciliation. | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
He said, I am not. I just do not believe the Taliban will do | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
anything about it. I said, OK, make sure you speak up in favour of | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
reconciliation. The problem is the Taliban are still believe that when | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
coalition troops are withdrawn in 2014 they can retake Kabul by force. | :16:53. | :17:03. | |
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Until they changed that mine said, some of them have, there is no | :17:05. | :17:13. | |
opportunity for negotiation. -- mindset. The real problem is that | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
from the outset there has been too much emphasis by NATO on the war- | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
fighting, on the military option, not enough emphasis on diplomatic | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
solutions. The Taliban were excluded from the political process | :17:30. | :17:38. | |
from the very get ago. We cannot get into a time machine and go back | :17:38. | :17:48. | |
:17:48. | :17:50. | ||
to 2001. They were excluded. What I saw when I was there, was a real | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
commitment. Hillary Clinton made a real surge for peace. The Americans | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
have been at great pains to create circumstances for a dialogue with | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
the Taliban. The reality is, the Taliban have not responded. The | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
Taliban responded by assassinating a professor when he was trying to | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
make peace. That was their response. Frankly, you might as well say, | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
look at the US and what they do on the ground. For example, we have | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
seen their troops the filing Taliban copses. We have seen | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
Americans burn the Koran. That is not part of the American military | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
strategy. The international strategy is to keep up military | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
pressure on the Taliban to buy time for the Afghan National Army to | :18:44. | :18:52. | |
develop and take over. To convince the Taliban and there is only a | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
political solution. If we have a ceasefire, the Taliban will think | :18:57. | :19:05. | |
they have one. Isn't the problem, the West sees a good Taliban and | :19:05. | :19:13. | |
bad Taliban? Until there is an acceptance that you need to | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
negotiate with the entirety of the Taliban, it will not go anywhere. | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
The differentiation we have made is between those who want to talk and | :19:23. | :19:33. | |
:19:33. | :19:39. | ||
those who want to fight. Nobody has suggested... There is nothing to | :19:39. | :19:49. | |
stop. People like him could have respected positions as senior | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
leaders. Your American colleagues, they are totally on board with | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
that? They do not believe he will... They have not put any limits on it. | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
There are no limits on who can reconcile. The only principles that | :20:05. | :20:15. | |
:20:15. | :20:15. | ||
have to be abided by a those made by Hamid Karzai. Things like | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
Amnesty and ceasefire will come lately. I mentioned Pakistan. In | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
the end we cannot have a discussion about the future of Afghanistan | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
without looking at Pakistan. Did it strike you as very odd that | :20:29. | :20:39. | |
throughout your time in Kabul, we saw a deterioration of the most | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
important relationship NATO could have, Islamabad? You need to get | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
Pakistan on board for a peaceful future for Afghanistan. It has been | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
a roller-coaster. We have seen a deterioration in US-Pakistan | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
relations. We have seen a deterioration in the Afghan- | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
Pakistan relations. It is a terrible diplomatic failure. Your | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
job is to build bridges. Let me finish. I was going to say, great | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
efforts have been made to reverse that situation. The Afghan-Pakistan | :21:16. | :21:24. | |
relations are much better. They have resumed contact. We have seen | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
the Americans, Afghans and Pakistanis have was -- resumed | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
dialogue. Hopefully we will see a strengthening. It is essential for | :21:39. | :21:49. | |
:21:49. | :21:50. | ||
peace. It is. The ISI continues to manipulate, used as proxies some of | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
the most important fighting insurgents inside Afghanistan. If | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
we assume that to be true, what would you do with the Pakistan | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
problem? I think we have to engage the Pakistanis. Make sure they are | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
inside the tent. The Pakistanis have feared that something was | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
going on behind their back which might be to the detriment of their | :22:12. | :22:22. | |
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interest. Openness and transparency with the Pakistanis. I think that | :22:25. | :22:35. | |
:22:35. | :22:38. | ||
is happening now. The Afghans accept that... To all of them? | :22:38. | :22:46. | |
Enough of them. If we cut to the chase, Afghanistan's feature is not | :22:46. | :22:56. | |
:22:56. | :22:57. | ||
the problem. -- future. There is open talk of civil war as Western | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
forces pull out. There is going to be a wave of attacks by the Taliban | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
if there is no meaningful peace process now. We expect the wave of | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
attacks. The Taliban have said they are going to have a summer | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
offensive. The previous offensive was a damp squid. What has docked | :23:19. | :23:29. | |
:23:29. | :23:33. | ||
the Taliban from talking, we cannot make them. -- stopped. They say the | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
Pakistanis are stopping them. Frankly, they know Western forces | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
are leaving. They see no reason to talk any more. I think that is part | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
of the calculation. We come back to the beginning of the conversation, | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
has Western strategy worked? depends who wins. Everybody in the | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
West says we cannot win. A senior Afghan once told me, very close to | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
the President, he did not think the Taliban would negotiate. Not until | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
they were defeated by an Afghan force in Kandahar. We are creating | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
the conditions for that to happen. The Taliban will be met by a | :24:21. | :24:26. |