On the Road in Honduras (3/3) HARDtalk

Stephen Sackur examines the crisis in the country's politics and

HARDtalk is on the road in Honduras, one of the poorest, the most

unequal and the most violent countries in Central America.

Endemic corruption, drugs trafficking and a recent military

coup all have contributed to a crisis of political legitimacy here.

A century ago, this place was called a banana republic because of

the dominance of huge American fruit companies. Now it's ingreat

danger of becoming a failed state - - in great danger of becoming a

failed state. So, who can save Honduras's capital is a city of

hills. Some of Central America's poorest

people have priceless views. The area is home to some 500 families,

more than half the adults here are jobless.

The seat of Honduras' national government is just 20 minutes'

drive away. And as far as this person is concerned, it might as

well be in another world. She looks after a family of six in her one-

room shack. I just wonder, when you look at your own kids and your

grandchildren, whether you worry for their future, the way Honduras

It's a tight-knit community. Residents are proud that the street

gangs which have taken over swathes of the area have so far been kept

out of their neighbourhood. But that doesn't mean people here

are safe. Drug abuse and crime have spread through the Honduran capital

like a virilent epidemic. And no- one in the town believes the state

offers any form of protection. Not even this man, who works for

the government's parks department, and certainly not this 15-year-old,

who's quit school and can't find a Right now, do you have any faith

that the politicianness this country really have -- politicians

in this country really have the Honduras isn't just poor, it's

poorly governed. The most recent crisis of political legitimacy

erupted in 2009. The military toppled the populous

President. For Hondurans with bitter memories of repressive

military rule, a generation ago, the return of the generals was

enough to prompt mass protest on the streets.

For a short time, revolution was in the air. But then came the post-

coup election of this man. He's a Conservative.

Quickly, he was given President Obama's seal of approval. Stability

apparently restored for those not looking too closely.

How stable is a country where independent reporting can lead to a

Protesters recently took to the streets demanding better protection

for the country's journalists. More than 20 have been murdered since

Radio HRN is the most popular news station in the country. Two months

ago, HRN made unwanted headlines itself., -- their most popular

presenter was kidnapped and I get the sense that a real fear,

not just amongst many journalists in this country now, but, frankly,

right across this society. Do you think Honduras is being damaged by

Journalism may be dangerous, but campaigning for peasant land rights

is worse. More than 40 activists have been killed in three years of

land disputes centred on the valley in northern Honduras.

The peasant farmers are fighting a losing battle with a handful of big

landowners, who have expanded their agri businesses with the support of

the hondian state. The activists recently journeyed to

the capital in an effort to voice their protest direct to government.

But theirs is a cause which has few friends in the corridors of power.

You sort of wonder why there isn't a greater sense of popular anger,

more signs of people power, in this country, which faces such a grave

political, social and economic crisis. Maybe it's because the

Honduran security forces are all around, ready to pounce if there is

any sign of trouble. And maybe also it's because there's a weary sense

of resignation that the problems in this country are simply too big to

fix. So, in reality, what's happening is

that people are locking themselves up. Their houses are turning into

jails basically, because people don't dare go out, because they

just don't feel safe going out into the streets in their own

communities. Sergio is a human rights worker who has categoryed

Honduras' shocking descent into lawlessness. The machinery of

is punty is the norm. We have a judicial

system that receives 65,000 to 70,000 complaints every year. And

of those, maybe 2,000 are being taken into court system, and of

those, a very minimum number will actually achieve some kind of

resolution with justice, you know? So what that means is that most

people are not seeing justice being done by the judicial system. Quite

the contrary. When you have something like 20 murders a day in

the country, and you don't even have enough forensic experts to be

able to look at the bodies and tells us what happened. That

ultimately means that murderers are walking free in Honduras. The

people think that police are more to fear than some gangs, for

example. I know in my neighbourhood, people walking in the streets at

night will much rather walk into a group of young people than walk

into a group of police officers coming down the street. Surely

you're exaggerating? You seem to be suggesting that there are no good

cops in this country, and that there is no possibility of getting

justice through the police and judicial system? That must be an

exaggeration? There are some good cops. What I'm really saying is

that the whole institution is broke down. It's broken down. It's rotten

to the core. What I'm saying is the violence in Honduras has to do not

only with drug trafficking but with the institutions of democracy

breaking down, particularly since the coup, for example. People don't

believe in the justice system anymore. Our people doesn't

certainly do not believe in the human rights ombudsman anymore,

because of the role he played. People do not believe that justice

is served. Surely, there are good police officers, but the force as a

Those Hondurans who can afford it have built high walls to keep out

the chaos. The gulf between the haves and the have-nots is widening.

In one of the area's poshest hotels, I found the country's business

elite in party mood. Never mind Honduras' problems of crime,

corruption and violence, the investment climate, they believe,

is about to improve. To understand why, I took a journey

north, towards Honduras' border with Guatemala. This valley has

been earmarked by the Honduran government as the favoured location

for a radical economic experiment. Here, they plan to plant the seeds

of a new city. A special development zone. With a government

and judicial system separate from the rest of troubled Honduras.

Gives you a point of access to the international economy. That's a sea

port. Just down there? Just down there. It gives you proximity to a

foreign border. That's puts a positive pressure, where you have

to compete to be attractive. Mark is one of the architects of this

radical idea. Inspired bit success of city states from Dubai to Hong

Kong, he's now advising Honduras' President. Mark, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you. Many Hondurans would say the vision that you have

peddled, and that some other visionaries have sold sh them as

well, free cities, or charter cities, is deeply troubling to them,

because it won't be democratic, it won't operate under the same rules

as the rest of the country. In the end, it will be supervised and held

to account by foreigners, outsiders? There are voices that

defend the status quo. There's not a lot that recommend the statusow.

It's recognised by the Hondurans. You have extreme poverty,

institutional weakness, the highest rate of crime. To such a dreeg that

one of the largest source of foreign exchange over Hondurans who

left the country and send money back home, that's 20% of the GDP.

That's not a great future. This will be a democracy. There will be

rule of law. The people will be there at their own choice and they

will have internationally respected rights in all demess. One of the

In he off you, the judiciary would be outsourced? -- in your feud.

I wanted to be an international financial centres are they hide

judges from the UK, and new seat and, and so you have established

your credibility, we want your knowledge. The reality is if you

want credible institutions you can wait five undue delays or you can

bring them in now. -- 500 years. One part of the population were say

we will risk our lives to reach the US illegally, with a chance of

getting rapes or killed on the way, or to be there illegally, you have

reached that point Mac to say what do we not give you one more option.

On a sliver of land, that is not 1% of the territory, you create a new

environment so that those who wish to go there, you are creating an

option. If this vision works it is going to be attractive because it

is going to be economically successful. The drugs traffickers

will see money here and the criminals will see opportunities.

There will be many people who will want to bring all of the problems's

has to this model city that you are envisioning. I see it as the

opposite. First of all, there will be strong levels of insecurity.

Delivered by flu and? Their shore is not in the rest of the country.

-- by whom -- they are sure isn't. Some say Honduras is as such a low

ebb they are ready to be sold snake oil from any source they can get it.

Really, the idea that in 20 years' time the spot where we are sitting

today could near the centre of a huge and successful new urban area

based on these principles of outsourcing, judicial power and

legal power, it is nothing more than a fantasy. Actually it is

nothing more than observing the success of that has taken place

again and again. You can look at the before and after photographs of

Hong Kong, Dubai, Singapore. You can see again and again, what was

once this barren Manhattan Island, turned out rather well. There are

patterns of success that can be observed and which work. The answer

is we have to come back here in 20 years' time. They queue for being

on HARDtalk thank you. -- thank you. The dream of building a new

Honduras seems far removed from the country's current dark reality. Of

neighbourhoods in the capital city under the control of violent gangs,

too dangerous to stop playing for a journalist like us, even for the

police -- to stop in. Right now, Honduras stands up hard inessential

America, more violent than corrupt -- in Central America. It is doomed

by a potential failing state. Which is why we wanted to talk to the

President. Despite repeated requests, he did not want to talk

to us. Instead, we were invited to the presidential palace by his

chief of staff. Welcome to HARDtalk thank you for having me. I want to

begin by quoting to you the words of the National Commission of Human

Rights you said a couple of months ago, such as the corrupt and at all

levels that this country is on the verge of becoming a furled state.

Do you accept that judgement? -- a failed state. What has happened

recently is that due to will the money that is flowing into the

country from the drug dealers we are turning into society that the

government has lost control of -- due to the money. The government

has lost control? Yes. We spoke to one trafficker who is trying to go

straight and was prepared to talk. He said that from his experience,

the organisations, the cartels and the gangs who are dealing in drugs

across borders, have such huge amounts of money they can buy

whoever they want. If that is true, it is a fundamental problem. I do

not think they can buy to whether they want. It is an outrageous

statement. I think they are able to buy people that have a tendency to

be corrupted. In the past, they have been corrupted by businessman

and now they are corrupted by drug dealers. The feeling in your

government is that a very significant proportion of your own

security forces, your own police forces in particular, are corrupt

and needs to be purged. What percentage of your own police force

do you believe will have to be got rid of? I am not an expert but what

I can tell you is that it will be a significant portion of the police

that will have to be purged. Since the military coup in 2009, more

than 300 civilian activists, were the trade unionists or Land Reform

Act this, toneless as well, more than 300 of these people have been

killed by state agencies -- journalists. We do not know that

they have been killed by state agencies. It is something they

claim that has happened. Several international community's have

looked at that and they have not been able to see that the state is

involved. What do you think? Do you think has killed the journalists

and the land reform activists? largest problem that we are facing

is impunity. Basically, you have a system that is so dysfunctional

that 97 of cases that are brought before the Supreme Court or the

judicial branch of thrown away, either because of the police not

doing their job correctly or the prosecutor who did not do his job

correctly, or it was the Church who do not do his job correctly -- the

judge -- 97%. That is something we are trying to change. Let me ask

you about the bigger picture. For many years, the Honduran political

and economic establishment has been dominated by a tiny few families.

Until the system changes, it will be very difficult to persuade the

people the Government is accountable to the wishes and needs.

Do you accept that? Yes. I think most of the people in this

government are willing to do the reforms that this country needs.

Look - what we are trying to create is a different society. Society in

which the most important concern of the government is the human person.

That is very different from what we had in the past. How long have you

got to turn things around here before Honduras becomes a failed

state? I think that it with this government things have begun to

turn around. Many of the least you mentioned are coming to realise

that they cannot expect politicians or governments to continue giving

them that kind of privilege they were given in the past. That is

something very important for the future of the country. We also have

society, a civil society, that is more empowered and as -- is more

willing to attack... With respect, it does not sound and Howard when I

talk to civil society. Civil society is scared -- does not sound

empowered. They do have power because they are doing the job they

were supposed to do. They are the watchdogs of government, of this

has none. -- of businessmen. This is a special moment in our history,

the climax of violence. As with any climax it will begin to go down. I

can tell you at this moment that this will happen quickly and it may