Radoslaw Sikorski - Foreign Minister of Poland HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. It is the biggest crisis confronting western

Europe in 20 years. Ukraine could be days away from losing a key part of

its territory. Russia stands on one side and the United States and the

European Union on the other. A key player on that side, Poland. Back

Radoslaw Sikorski warns the Russian President that if Russia does not

de-escalate, the EU will impose sanctions. Moscow needs our money,

he says. Why does Radoslaw Sikorski believed things would be different

this time? Radoslaw Sikorski, welcome to

HARDtalk. If Crimea vote next Sunday to secede from Ukraine, and become

part of Russia, should the wheel of the people there be recognised by

the outside world? I do not believe the conditions exist for an honest

and fair vote. From what I know, the electoral registers are in Kiev, .

The security situation is so bad in the Crimea right now that Poland has

had to evacuate its Gillette. The law and order situation is very bad.

And also, there's proposed referendum is patiently illegal

under the Ukrainian constitution. They are being offered a choice. It

is not the case of being told, you either vote for succession or we

abandon you. We are being told by the Russians supporters, the ethnic

Russians in Crimea, you can vote for that all you can vote for greater

autonomy inside Ukraine. If Crimea and the majority of the people there

want greater autonomy within Ukraine, I am convinced that is

achievable without this intervention by Russian troops. On the basis of

what you know about the situation, why do you say it is not legitimate?

You could argue that what has happened is that the Crimean

parliament, already autonomous inside Ukraine, has voted to hold

this referendum, having already said it wants to join the Russian

Federation. We had a situation in Kiev with its parliament voting to

get rid of President Yanukovych. Parliament Parliament making votes,

making decisions. The parliament having been elected by their people.

You are having a referendum on Scotland. It is done by agreement,

not by unilateral action. So it is the lack of agreement with Kiev is

the only issue he? The lack of the respect of the Ukrainian

constitution and under duress of foreign troops. Be believed then

that this situation can be resolved before the referendum takes place?

Hopefully. If Russia were to engage in dialogue with Ukraine and the

international community, I believe that the rights of all the Ukrainian

citizens can be respected. Remember, not a single Russia and all Russian

speaker has so far been harmed. There is no pretext even for this

military intervention. You see it as an military intervention,

military intervention. You see it as say they are not Russian troops on

the ground. We know which units they come from. So you know who these

people are? Near a baying orders from the Russian government. Yes I

do. On this question of legitimacy, you reached a deal last month with

an Yanukovych. You clearly thought then, he was a legitimate president

and you are prepared to support the deal. You said that whatever his

flaws, this was an improvement that could involve going back to the

previous constitution, restricting the powers of the President. And

having a schedule for election, I'm kind of inclusive government. Russia

says, actually, let's go back to that deal. Why not? Well, Russia did

not sign the agreement. The agreement remember was between

President Yanukovych and the opposition. We, the foreign

ministers of Poland, Germany and France were merely witnesses. A bit

more than that. You are quoted saying, if you do not support this,

you will have martial law. That was my conversation with part of the

opposition to persuade them of the seriousness. It sounded like a bit

more than persuasion. A voted in favour of the agreement. IM not

surprise if they thought they would be dead. Use this was a good deal.

You thought it was a good deal. In that moment, yes. The Russian

representative initial attacks. -- initialled the text. Let's remember

what is in the agreement. One point of the agreement was that within 48

hours, the world, more democratic constitution would be voted through

in Parliament and signed by President Yanukovych. He skipped

town and then surreptitiously, left the country. He did not sign the

Constitution. There is nothing to stop the new powers would miss.

President Yanukovych broke the agreement. Everything else stemmed

from that. I believe that we should honour the spirit of the agreement.

Inclusive government, new constitution, removing weapons from

the streets. That can be achieved. But that does not mean that might

need an military invasion of Crimea. Another thing that was

openly discussed between President Yanukovych, the opposition and the

foreign ministers, including the representative of President Putin.

That the Prime Minister of this inclusive of and would be Arseniy

Yatsenyuk who is the Prime Minister. We are astonished now that Russia is

refusing to talk to a Prime Minister that was envisaged any agreement.

And is denouncing the Ukrainian government. So just to be clear, as

far as you are concerned, if Russia is prepared to speak to the Prime

Minister, you would be prepared to throw your weight behind this deal

and say to the opposition... I am not being flippant about it but to

make the point, you would be prepared to use your influence to

say, let's restore this deal. Let's restore legality. That have to

include the removal of foreign troops from sovereign territory. You

mention this accusation against fascist in the government. This is

what Vladimir Putin said. They are on a rampage in part of Ukraine

including care. He talked of an acting Governor being tortured. He

talked in the offices of Viktor Yanukovych's party. Another person

was earned alive, is it democracy, he asked himself. Are you at all

worried. Maidan was a popular movement. It started with students

protesting the non- signing of the association agreement. It then grew

to include demonstrations of up to a million people. Of course, when you

have a million people, some of them are people who probably do not watch

the BBC or don't agree with it. The main goal of the Maidan is about

wanting their country to be rid of corruption, to be better run and to

be more pro- European. The iMac some are quite into string. The new chair

of the National Security Council, one of his deputies... He is a

member of Parliament. I met him. He did not strike me as an extremist.

What about one of his deputies? That right sector has been accused of

having links to security services of two countries. And was seen meeting

President Yanukovych on the day of the massacre. So, yes, he has a lot

to explain. On that basis then, what did you make of the accusation of

President Putin? Some of these people involved in the overthrow of

President Yanukovych had been as he put it, trained in foreign bases in

Poland and Lithuania. That is not true. Have you investigate it is Mac

it is not true. We do not do that. It could not have happened in Poland

and that is the disturbing part of what President Putin says. He also

says that these are not his troops in the Crimea when we know they are.

The director of the Polish Institute of International affairs told the

BBC last week that the relationship with Ukrainian activist was

developed over years and paid. It is true that there are NGOs that talk

to one another but that is legitimate authority. Media in

Ukraine have been under pressure for some time, journalists have been

under pressure. We believe in media freedom. Are you worried for

Ukraine's future, leaving aside some of the people we have been talking

about, if some familiar faces just returned to power. The pre- Viktor

Yanukovych politicians. I agree with you that the people of Ukraine

deserve to have politicians who can prove the sources of their worth.

Because part of the Maidan is a protest against such a blatant

stealing of assets. And politicians declaring on the one hand to be poor

as a church mouse and on the other hand, getting into their private

jets and flying to countries of the EU to draw on the assets. Is

interesting you talk about the EU and money because that is a critical

point as well. You have talked, last month about part of the movement in

Maidan being about laptop Christie and your concern about the Orange

Revolution and the politicians missing the opportunity to get

Ukraine where it should be now. Just after Julia Tymoshenko was released,

and journalists tweeted that she was happy for her family and worried for

her country that she will return to politics. She helped cause the

crisis. Do you agree? I try not to interfere in the personal politics

of another country. There is a presidential race on and Tymoshenko

may be a candidate. You did retweet that comment. You do agree with Anne

Applebaum, that she helped cause the crisis? I hope an honest person wins

the election. Why did you read Twitter the message? -- retweet. I

retweet things that I think people will find informative. Yulia

Tymoshenko Mr many chances to perform the Ukraine. -- missed. She

missed opportunities. That's important. The issue now on Ukraine

is political instability. The line behind that is the state of the

economy. The finance minister says for example that the country needs

something like $35 billion worth of loans and credits to avoid default.

We know that Russia has provided significant discounts on gas imports

as part of a deal over the Black Sea. Discounts from an artificial --

artificially inflated price. But many Ukrainians believe what they

have been offered from the outside, led by the European Union, the IMF

and so on, is not that attractive, is it? Not as much money as the

government says its needs, not $35 billion worth of loans and aid, and

with strings attached. Merret in Poland we have experienced of this

sort of situation. -- in Poland. In 1989 when we took over power, Poland

was literally bankrupt. It had not been servicing its debt and we had

inflation of 800%. Economically speaking, we were in worse shape

than Ukraine today. We didn't get anything. We got $1 billion standby

agreement to stabilise our currency, on which we didn't draw. Because if

you compared the internal savings of your public sector, your corporate

and private is, -- private sectors, it is bigger than any conceivable

help from the outside. Help from the outside can be helped. The main

thing you do is to start sensibly using your own country's resources.

That the corruption, the amount of money being taken out? And the

finances. 7% of Ukraine's budget is a subsidy. Ukrainian households only

cover 20% of the cost of gas and the cost of gas that Ukraine imports is

higher for Ukraine than four Poland or Germany. Which is unfair. The

trouble is, what the boss of the European bank for Reconstruction and

development told me on Sunday is that one of the conditions would be

that people will have to end the gas subsidies. He says it is difficult

politics but there isn't much of an option. That it is on the brink of

bankruptcy. Ukraine has already divided its currency, which was one

of the conditions, and they will have to pay more for gas because no

country can sustain that. A painful message to Ukrainians. Ukrainians I

spoke to in Maidan knew this. They say they want a better country and

they know things will get worse before they get better, just as they

were for us. It's an almost generational contract. This

generation has to take a little bit of short-term pain, so that 5-10

years down the road Ukraine can be a normal and successful European

country. Your Prime Minister said the only way to stop Russia is from

per -- firm pressure and obstinacy on the part of Europe. You think the

response of EU leaders has demonstrated that? Both the EU and

the United States, and your Prime Minister just spoke about this in

the House of Commons, yes... David Cameron? We need time to co-ordinate

opposition. We are not a nation state with the union of command that

you have in the US, that alone Russia. But we are the largest

economy on earth and we have forced countries like South Africa and Iran

to change course and we should communicate very clearly that there

will be costs for occupying Crimea and even bigger costs for invading

mainland Ukraine. The difficulty is that at is the message of the

rhetoric of what people saw after the emergency summit of EU leaders,

that went the yonder the schedule time, -- went beyond the scheduled

time, the only concrete thing was a halt to negotiations on visa free

travel. And asset freezes. Some limited asset freezes. Tomorrow, the

group in London needs to specify what the sanctions will be. The

European Council said that they will kick in if there isn't any

de-escalation in a matter of days. We will have this fake referendum on

Sunday. On Monday, the Foreign Affairs Council is meeting, which is

in part to pass sanctions. You used the phrase ten days. Argue

saying... That is Poland's position but do you think the EU will agree

with that? If Russia doesn't pull back, will we see concrete measures?

On Sunday, you said Moscow needs our money. The evidence is there. If

Europe wanted to, it could make Moscow squeal economically. It is an

hour of truth. Are we going to allow borders in Europe to be changed by

force? Are we again going to allow one leader of Europe to send his

troops to a neighbouring country on the pretext of ethnic grievances? We

know the precedence and we know how dangerous they are. Nobody wants

sanctions. Poland has a lot of trade with Russia. We should not do this

enthusiastically. So does Britain. We had this document of an official

saying, we don't want sanctions. But the risk of allowing Russia to go

further and invade Ukraine properly is even bigger. The cost would be

bigger as well. You met your British opposite. Have you told him that is

not an acceptable approach? Britain and Poland are collaborating

closely. You agree you won't put the interest of Britain's financial

centre at offputting sanctions on Russia? All EU countries should make

sure that the laws on money-laundering, on provenance of

capital -- are applied and that we don't do, to the people of Russia,

what was done to the people of Ukraine. But a small group of people

was able to steal the assets of the country. Do you think Russia will

send troops to the mainland of Ukraine, beyond the borders with

Crimea? I hope not and I strongly urge Russia authorities not to do

that but I know the troops are there, just across the border,

available to do it. You called the NATO meeting under Article four.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO. But we are and we are -- and when the

territory of a neighbouring country is invaded, it is an important

province under threat of being annexed, we feel very keenly that it

affects our security. Do you share the view of the president of Luke

Delaney, who warned that it will be, as she put it, first Ukraine,

Moldova would be next and finally it could reach Poland. -- Lithuania. We

should do everything for that logic to be pre-empted. Georgia, in 2008,

she was somewhat similar. We could have said, that is a 1-off. The

Georgian government allowed itself to be provoked. He won't let Ukraine

down in the same way? Ukraine has been unbelievably restrained. And on

provocative. -- on provocative. Georgia should not become a pattern.

You said the people of Poland and the people of EU paid a price in the

20th century for a war that started on the pretext of protecting

national minorities. I hope we have learned lessons. Is it your

contention that Vladimir Putin was Matt Russia is acting like Hitler's

Germany? Russia gave a security guarantees in April, 1939, that were

not acted upon. -- Germany gave security guarantees. Those are very

dangerous precedence is. You say Europe needs to take it that

seriously? I think we have agreed, after World War II and after the

Cold War, that issues to do with minorities, with ethnic rights, are

to be resolved through the Council of Europe, and, just like you did,

through overcoming borders rather than brutally changing them. Is

there a peaceful way out of this conflict? Kennett and without a shot

fired? It can but only one man can decide to do that. -- can it end.

Are you setting that too high, because you are asking him to be the

eight -- to humiliate himself? We are all asking President Putin to

revert to respecting international law. Radoslaw Sikorski, thank you

very much for joining us on HARDtalk.

It had to happen eventually, after the wettest winter on record. One at

Atlantic low after the other. Finally, an