Arseniy Yatsenyuk - Interim Prime Minister, Ukraine HARDtalk

reached the house code of conduct, but not fiddled expenses. You are

up`to`date, now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to a

special edition of HARDtalk from the Ukrainian capital, Kiev. With me,

Stephen Sacker. `` Stephen Sackur. The centre of the city has become a

shrine for those who lost loved ones in violence. Even here, among the

passion and protest there is a nagging feeling that Ukraine is

sliding deeper into political and economic crisis. I think there

should be... Everyone came now are the same people, in the regime,

maybe not the regime of younger people, but their predecessors. The

people change, but the leaders didn't. I'm afraid that

south`eastern parts of Ukraine will be joined through Russian Federation

in future, . To you fear Russia today? Yes. Putin is a very

difficult person. He is very dangerous. Because of what we don't

know, we are very worried. I have walked to the very edge of Kiev's

revolutionary centre. As he passed through the last barricade you feel

that the city wants to restore a sense of business as usual. It is

not easy. Because the economy here is in a terrible mess. Of course,

Russian troops are still massed on the eastern border. In an

exclusivity to view today, I will be talking to Ukraine's interim Prime

Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk. He has called his government aid kamikaze

Cabinet. How does Ukraine avoid destruction? `` are a kamikaze

Cabinet. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, welcome to HARDtalk. Do you consider your

country to be in a state of war with Russia? We usually call our Cabinet

eight wartime Cabinet. Starting with the military, and today this is

economic and energy aggression. This is the most competent time for our

country in our history. Let's focus first, if we are going to use the

word war come up on the military situation. Starting with Crimea. Do

you accept that you have lost Crimea? What I do accept, I accept

that Russia violated and international law. And acted like an

armed robber, grabbing the land of independent country. We do

understand that to fix the Crimean issue will take quite extensive

period of time. But despite this, we will never recognise annexation. And

we will do everything we can in order to take over the control in

Crimea. If I may, I want to move this forward from Crimea. Because as

we speak, there are tens of thousands of Russian soldiers massed

very close to your eastern border. What are the orders given to your

forces today, in that very tense situation? The order is very clear.

If Russia crosses the border, and starts military aggression, Ukraine

will resist and retaliate. They will protect our country will with all

means and tools we have in our hands. There will be war. If Russia

wagers the war, we will defend our country. The NATO top commander in

Europe said just a very short time ago that in his opinion, all the

elements were in place on the Russian side. He said Russia can

achieve its objectives if it so chooses in Ukraine within three or

five days. This timetable is over estimated. It's not just about the

military strength. That is true. That Russia is strong. This is a

nuclear state with a modernised military, it has a huge army. But it

is not just about the strength. It is more about the spirit. Again, we

are ready to protect. We are ready to defend the country. We are ready

to fight. What is your reading today of Vladimir Putin's intentions

Nizhny Novgorod I know you are not speaking to him directly, but you

have to make an assessment of the situation you face today. And what

do you believe are Putin's intentions? As far as I understand,

the President wants to be a historic person. Resurrected USSR. A new

version of the USSR, 2.0. In the first step on this way he has

already committed when he grabbed the territory of an independent

country. But Russia and Russian President did not expect this kind

of solid, strong response of the international community. As today,

Russia is isolated in the UN Security Council, even in the UN

G8. What is the final goal? The final goal is to be the president of

the new type of soviet union. Is it doable? No. Let's talk about the

international response you have just referred to. Are you satisfied with

what NATO, the West, has offered you in terms of support? The US and UK

and G`7 members and B5, must urgently do something in order to

build`up a new system of global security. This is the first point.

The second one... But have they let you down? Second one. They had just

two options. Two options on the table. One of these options is to

start the military operation and to have US or UK boots on the ground on

the Ukrainian ground. Is it acceptable, no. No one wants to have

world War three. The second option is to use a number of new tools in

this new world, which would substantially press on Russia. The

key tool today is financial and economic sanctions. I will talk

about those in just a second. But before we leave the issue of NATO,

let me ask you what you want in terms of a relationship with NATO

right now. Do you want joint military exercises? NATO presence on

your territory today? We want to do our best to modernise and overhaul

Ukrainian defence systems. Ready to call operate with NATO on this

particular issue. We already have a number of joint exercises together

with our NATO partners. You must know that will just look like

escalation. That may be the tipping point that sends Putin to put his

forces into your country. Into the east of your country. The next

message is very clear. Membership perspective is not on our... This is

the corporation, how to support Ukraine to modernise the military.

But going back to the membership perspective, we are very clearly

saying that it is not yet on our agenda. Not yet. But Toutant's

message is clear. Ukraine cannot be, should not be, ever, a member of the

western, NATO military. `` Putin's. Do you now accept that? We accept

that it is unacceptable for Russia to interfere in our domestic

policies. That's not what I asked you. I asked you whether you would

be willing to say as Prime Minister of Ukraine that Ukraine will not

seek, and indeed should not seek, membership of the NATO alliance. I

can say what I just said. Membership perspective is not on our radar. You

mentioned what you believe to be the more important pressure point on

Russia today, which is economic and financial sanctions. One of the

influential figures in your country today, the governor of Donetsk, said

that Ukraine is more interested in western democracy. He said that the

West isn't prepared to take the sort of punitive economic measures

against Putin which might harm their own interest as well. The West is

doing what they can. The US stands by the Ukrainian people and proposed

tough economic sanctions. Well, quite tough, but not as tough as

they could be. We expect to go further. When? If you have a chance,

you can ask the EU heads of state. They are doing what they can. We

believe they can do more. That's not happening. Look at London. Look at

the amount of Russian money and assets which flow freely in and at

out of London. You know EU member states are not doing all they could.

It's not just about Ukraine. It's about them. Look at the

retrospective. Let's take the lessons from the history. It

happened 70 or 80 years ago in Europe. And it could happen again.

Who knows the final destination? Is it Donetsk, is it Kiev? Let me ask

you about former president Viktor Yanukovych. He has just given an

interview calling the annexation a tragedy. He said it only happened

because of what he still calls a coup d'etat in Kiev. He says you and

your government have been incompetent in the aftermath of his

departure. What is your reaction to that? My reaction is that former

president Viktor Yanukovych will be prosecuted. The Ukrainian

authorities started an investigation. He is accused of mass

murder. And we will bring him to justice. Viktor Yanukovych says

explicitly that he gave no orders to security personnel to open fire on

protesters in Independent Square. We want to get him in the courtroom,

and he can easily say it during the court possession. He has the right

to defend himself under the Ukrainian penalty code. Your

government has supervised an investigation. The report has just

come out. You believe that there is persuasive, convincing evidence that

responsibility for the terrible bloodshed here in Kiev goes to the

very top of the Viktor Yanukovych regime? I cannot dig into details at

what we know the shore, the law enforcement officers have strong

evidence that the highest Ukrainian officials were responsible for the

massacre that happened in Ukraine last month. Including the President?

Dilemma I am not the general prosecutor, it is up to them to

bring to justice everyone responsible. It is crystal clear

that Viktor Yanukovych and his close allies are personally responsible

for this killing. Your determination to see a Viktor Yanukovych appear in

a court of law inside this country is going to further divide and

polarise this country, is it not? It is going to ring the real justice in

this country. That is what people ask for, for justice. And you think

that your perspective will be shared by people in Donetsk and across the

east of the country? I am absolutely sure. What if you are wrong? Not

this time, sir. Let us talk about the situation in Ukraine today.

There are armed men loyal to movements like the right sector who

are not answerable to your security forces are out on the streets and

are wielding their own authority. What are you going to do about it?

Let me put it bluntly. That is true, there are small groups of

armed protesters. Just a short distance from here, just 80 days

ago, we had activist from the right sector opened fire just of

Independence Square wounding three people including the Deputy Mayor of

the city. And many of his cohort still have guns and still say they

are going to do whatever it takes to deliver their agenda in Ukraine. He

was arrested. Everyone who possessed an illegal arm is arrested and will

be arrested. We are very tough on this issue. That is your promise on

those who have arms. What about those who just use divisive words?

In your own cabinet, you have, I believe, three members of the far

right party. In the past, leadership of that party has talked about a

Jewish conspiracy, world jury taking over Ukraine. This is the mentality

of a movement which you have now invited into your cabinet. You

mentioned that far right party. In the past, they made a number of

wrong statements but during the last year and a half, due to their

participation in the Coalition, they were not allowed to state anything

like this. It was a precondition to join the Coalition, no more.

Russians always misuse this issue. I and the first one who is

interested, not to give them any kind of excuse, I mean to Russians.

Saying, look, this is the Coalition member with the far right interests

and ideology. We are almost out of time and there are two more issues I

want to get through. The current state of your economy. You said, not

so long ago, that Ukraine is on the edge of bankruptcy. There is no

question the public finances are in a terrible mess, growth has

disappeared. There is going to be a serious contraction of your economy

this year. How can you persuade the Ukrainian people that your

government has the ability to turn the economy around 's we offer is in

a tremendous economic challenge. Last year, we passed an austerity

package. Is it a reform agenda? No. We need to take in order to stop the

deterioration of the situation in Ukraine. The second step is to get

the IMF loan and the support of the international community. The third

step is to launch a, hence if reform. The initial tax reforms,

good governance, to create jobs, to improve a investment climate. What

we need in the short term, to survive. That is what we are doing

today. If you are to make those changes, they will be desperately

painful. This is the price for not having reforms in the last two

decades. And we are ready to pay this price. You may be, other

people, are they ready to pay? If they are already struggling with a

pay freeze or no job at all, rising energy prices. Are they ready to pay

yet more of a price? For the sake of their children and for the future of

our country, they are ready to pay this rice. But they want to see,

where is the lights in the tunnel? And I have already indicated, we

need to pass this very difficult transition period in order to have a

better future. There is no other solution. I have spoken to people

quite a number of people in Independence Square and Kiev in the

last day also and I sense a cynicism that the political leaders that

Ukraine has today are not so very different from the leaders Ukraine

had one year ago. And that the entire generation of leadership has

failed this country and that new people, a new generation is needed.

That is normal. At what is important, even when people hate

their politicians, if they let their country `` love their country, if

they want change in their country, they are ready. They are ready for

painful reforms. You believe it is time for a clean sweep? New leaders

to come to the fore. It will definitely have been. `` happen. Far

from being a clean sweep, you are Tymoshenko represent the old

government. Is up to the people of Ukraine to decide who is to be the

next president of Ukraine. Is up to go

why have you lend your support to Yulia Tymoshenko? When she decided

to run for the presidency, I need to be honest, looking to my own eyes in

the mirror. But four years ago, before you joined an alliance with

her party, you said the following. He said the choice between

Tymoshenko and Yanukovych is a choice between two evils. I see no

difference. Is politics, sir. That is true. It was three years ago but

the situation has changed dramatically and we have new

circumstances. And you wonder why people outside of this office are

cynical? Is it all just down to politics and positioning and you are

willing to back someone who used the as part of the problem, not the

solution? Billing back to the question you raised, I said publicly

that I support Tymoshenko as a human being. And the Prime Minister, I

will do everything, what is in my responsibility to have free and fair

elections in Ukraine. Why are people cynical, politics is cynical. Not

just in Ukraine. In the entire globe. We need to do something with

a new type of politics to build up this new type of politics. Which is

to be more honest, more transparent, more responsible. And I

am ready to respond to every challenge. Last question. You feel

for Ukrainians future? I believe in a Ukrainian future. I am expecting

something else. I strongly believe in Ukraine in the future. We will

leave it there. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, thank you very much for being on

HARDtalk. Thank you. We have had high levels of pollution

once again, affecting central and eastern parts of England but change

is a foot over the next 24 hours. Clean out will be moving in across

the Atlantic bringing cleanup, fresh air but they will also be some rain

on the way. The change in the weather is behind this flabby area

of low pressure. It is behind this low that we will start to draw in