Helen Clark - Administrator of UN Development Programme HARDtalk


Helen Clark - Administrator of UN Development Programme

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calls the situation a shambles. Now on BBC News it is time for

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HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. What is the

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point of the United Nations? It has a multi`billion dollar budget, a

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sprawling bureaucracy and a broad mandate to better the human

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condition, but when the going gets tough, does the UN have an effective

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response? It is a question that might be asked in Syria today, maybe

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in Iraq and South Sudan as well. A host of other countries as well. My

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guest is the UN's third most senior official, Helen Clark, the boss of

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the UN Development Programme. Is the UN failing the people who need it

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most? Helen Clark, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Would it be fair to say that people around the world have lost their

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faith in the United Nations as a force for good? I do not think they

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have lost their faith, but the are a lot of conflicts and issues around

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the world that the UN struggles to address effectively. Whether that is

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the UN's fault or the nature of the conflict itself is another matter.

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Are you prepared to allow it might be the UN's fault? When you look at

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the Security Council, it is not always to get agreement. Syria is

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the example of that. The conflict is in its fourth year. Over 2 million

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refugees. People say, why can't something be done? The Security

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Council cannot give a mandate if among its permanent members there is

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a disagreement. That must be deeply frustrating for you. You had up the

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development programme, you chair the entire development group of UN

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agencies. There is so much work you could and should be doing inside the

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Syria, and yet you look at the political masters in the Security

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Council and it is utterly dysfunctional. Decisions cannot be

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taken. There was a calculation last year that Syria had lost 35 years in

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its development ranking because of this conflict. It is enormously

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frustrating. Syria had done quite well in terms of capital, education

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and health. That will drops away with the conflict. We are still

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trying to raise money to change the things that can be done for people

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in those difficult circumstances. But that is the tragedy we see. I

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characterised it as people around the world losing face. But you have

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to go in every day to work, sometimes in the Middle East, and

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you must say, a lot of the work I am trying to do is pointless.

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Development can only happen if there is some semblance of peace, security

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and stability on the ground. In Syria there is none. The UN has no

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idea how to further stability. It is very hard to get any traction on

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development where you have instability. If you look at South

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Sudan, which began its life as a new nation in 2011, had a lot of support

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behind it, it went up in flames with the conflict last December with

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250,000 displaced, significant hunger problems. `` a quarter of its

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people. You make it sound as though all you can do is sit back and

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watch. The UN has to take some stability of what happened in South

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Sudan. You had a presence there even before independence was finally

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achieved. You have emission of many hundreds, plus thousands of security

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forces. And yet it seemed like the UN was completely taken by surprise.

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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If you apply hindsight to think that on

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the 1st of July 2011 there was a new nation with no package of conflict

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from the past, a lot of genuine efforts went into trying to do State

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building at the most basic community level and the political system there

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was tremendous division and a lot of baggage from the past. We have to

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try and build from the bottom up. I was going to start by talking about

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Syria and Iraq, but I'm taken by South Sudan. I spent a lot of time

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reporting from the country myself. I am struck by these words from a

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civil society activists in the capital. This gets to the heart of

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which the UN is for. He says, we went to the UN in New York, the

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period before December 2013 when the politics since fell apart, he said

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we told them not to ignore the friction. But they were so

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preoccupied talking about development and investment, saying,

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let us throw money at the country, the voices urging a focus on

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covenants were in the minority. He has got a point. There was a lot to

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focus on State building, delivery of services and a foreign investment

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conference which had a great many people attending it. While these

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tensions were still simmering at the community level. There were not a

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surprise. The President had sacked his old cabinet and removed his vice

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president. Why didn't they tell you, never mind development and

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investment, we should be making more `` shortly politics do not fall

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out. The canary in the mine came out when the sackings happened. We have

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been looking, you could say to lead, puts certainly at the lessons

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learned. I do not feel our programme focused sufficiently on that most

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basic level of community building which is essential for a nation. You

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cannot build a state if you cannot build a community. There were deep

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tensions in the country which needed to be addressed from day one. So you

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sort of got it wrong? I do not think the UN just got it wrong. I think

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the government partners saw an opportunity, but the basic community

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building needed to be done. Let us talk about the two most pressing

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problems facing the international community in the Middle East. That

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is Syria and Iraq. Let us start with Syria. Would you accept that Syria

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over the past 2.5 years has been a terrible failure for the United

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Nations? The Security Council permanent members do not agree. You

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cannot get concerted action in those circumstances. The one place you did

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get concerted action was when the chemical weapons were used. The

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Security Council rallied very quickly. That was a line that people

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could not accept. We are in the process of seeing those weapons

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eliminated. Sadly, you are right, this is one of the few examples

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where there has been a coming together of what to do. I want you

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to be as frank with me as you can, is not a problem that the United

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Nations is constrained by the sovereignty issue? In the end, the

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UN, whatever reason, feels it has to work through and with the sovereign

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government in Damascus, the Assad regime? That fundamentally limits

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the possibility of what the UN camp achieve on the ground. That does not

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stop it in the case of humanitarian supplies, negotiate access with a

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range of groups which may be in control of a political area. What it

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does stop, it seems, according to a study, 85% of UN food supplies and

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over 70% of medicine supplies are going into government held

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territory. There is a lot of negotiation to get it into other

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territories as well. I cannot do humanitarian relief, I had a agency.

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But you are involved with a group doing this. They are working very

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hard to get access into rebel areas. With some success, but not as much

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as they would want. But the UN Security Council passed a resolution

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which was supposed to ensure that humanitarian aid which civilians

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across Syria and would not be blocked by the government or the

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rebels. That resolution was passed with fanfare. But it seems it is not

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worth the paper it is written on. It may be hard to implement because of

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the nature of the conflict. A lot of people suffer when you cannot get

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essential relief supplies. Coming back to what you said about the

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nature of the Security Council, one problem with the resolution was it

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was not passed under chapter seven. That would have given the United

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Nations the authorisation to work without the consent of the Syrian

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government. I am asking you this as a senior politician, a former Prime

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Minister of New Zealand, as well as the third most senior official of

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the United Nations, do you believe that the chapter seven powers should

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be invoked in Syria? Whether or not I think, the point is the politics

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will not permit that. It seems to me that UN officials have an obligation

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to speak out, to put as much pressure as you can, if you believe

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that is the only direction to go in. Of course it is better to have a

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resolution that enables you to get the support that is needed. But that

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is not going to be the outcome of the member states negotiation, it is

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not going to happen. You can call it the way you see it. If sufficiently

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important people say, you know what, I am going to be strict with the

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people of Syria and the world and as a, we have to have this

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authorisation. That would make a difference. And month and month out,

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Baroness Amos, who heads the UN emergency relief area, talking about

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all the problems she has, she needs support from good resolutions. Why

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is it that when we have spoken to senior NGO officials involved in the

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relief effort, they say there are real problems with the competence of

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the United Nations on the ground with Syria, you say it is the NGOs

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rather than the UN who are doing most of the work in rebel held

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areas. They are not happy with the support they are getting. I have not

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heard that. Media that is because I'm not directly responsible for the

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area. I have talked to the High Commissioner for refugees, the

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emergency relief co`ordinator and others, who spend an enormous amount

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of their time trying to address the Syrian crisis. I do not think the

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fault can be laid at their door. But the geopolitics around Syria are

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such that it does not make it easy to get the entry points you need.

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The UN is so tied to this notion that you cannot do things that might

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upset the government, in this case the Assad regime, that it actually

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prevents you from doing important work on the ground in rebel held

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corporation from the authority in corporation from the authority in

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Damascus to be able to operate at all. You do not want that door

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entirely closed. You need to be able to cool an Chote across lines. Here

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is what Lakhdar Brahimi has said in Germany. After serving as the

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special envoy. Having achieved not much. He said Syria will become

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another Somalia, a field state. If things continue as they are

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coming he is probably not far wrong. What about groups doing humanitarian

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work on behalf of rebels in their areas? When one of their officials

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says that it is outrageous that the UN is in effect, supporting the

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regime of a war criminal? I would not accept that assertion for a

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moment. The UN is very clear that the situation in Syria is completely

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unacceptable. Mr Brahimi himself and before that Kofi Annan did

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everything they could to come to a mediated decision. Let's talk about

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Iraq as it appears to be in danger of imploding as we speak. Save the

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Children has said that 500,000 civilians have been forced to flee

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Mosul and the surrounding areas. We are talking about the largest and

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swiftest movement of people in recent times and again you, the UN

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and others have a big presence on the ground in Iraq. What is the

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point when the country is so unstable, potentially imploding, all

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the resources you are putting into the country will probably go to

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waste, won't they? It is not a peacekeeping mission so it is not as

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if there are great forces on the ground there. Agencies like my own

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have been able to work unimpeded in Iraq for example in the Kurdish part

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of Iraq in which we do pretty standard operations there because of

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the stability. We operate in other places but because of the violence

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in the past year, it has been so serious in recent days and it is

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quite shocking. Do you think the UN will have to get much further

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involved in Iraq? The Security Council will address it quite

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urgently and maybe by the time the show has aired, one can predict that

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they will come behind the territorial integrity of Iraq but

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will look to Iraq itself to police its own internal security. You made

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waves in 2003 as Prime Minister out of New Zealand because you oppose

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military intervention in Iraq at that time. There is talk today of a

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need, if indeed this Islamic extremist insurgents is being

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installed in Iraq and the east of Syria, of the need to consider new

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Western led military intervention. My guess would be that there would

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not be great appetite for that among many countries. They may look to

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take such action. They may advise or train or arm but I think the

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appetite for boots on the ground is well and truly associated with the

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previous intervention. And do you believe her slowly and politically

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that the decision to invade in 2003 can be directly linked to what is

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happening in Iraq today? Do you think ultimate responsibility sorts

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of lies with those who made the military intervention in 2003? I

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think it's hard to attribute cause and effect this far out but

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certainly, the intervention didn't solve a lot of issues. It replaced a

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very authoritarian leader, and the attitude of my government took at

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the time was that our Iraqis `` Iraqis should be controlling it.

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There is long`term fallout from that decision I think. One could also

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look at how politics in Iraq have been run. Have they been inclusive

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enough? Have a set out to create a nation that can hold together a

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cross quite diverse peoples? I think that is where I would like to focus

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from a developmental prospect. It seems to me that there is a strong

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possibility that the work you do reinforces the fragmentation of

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regions like the Middle East. You work in Kurdish areas so you are

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beefing up their sense of autonomy and quantitative dependence. You are

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doing a huge amount of work in Syria with refugees, two and a half

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million across their borders and in Lebanon and Jordan and Turkey as

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well. By offering long`term assistance and development

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assistance to these people, are you not simply assuring that the

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fragmentation process is set in stone? I wouldn't see it as

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supporting a fragmentation process but what I do think is that

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nationstates often put a border around very diverse group of people

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and for those states to maintain territorial integrity, there does

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have to be an often quite significant measure

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decentralisation. The United Kingdom in itself got quite a long way down

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the road with Scottish autonomy and Welsh autonomy and so on and so for

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nations to stay together, often the central government has to be

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prepared to default quite a lot. I want to come back to the politics of

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the UN as you are a who used to run the relief

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co`ordination office of the UN says that right now, we are in the

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bleakest, blackest days of War. He's thinking of what we have

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seen in Syria and Ukraine as well. Security Council. Would you agree

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with that? I think certainly those two cases have been like a flashback

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to a previous era of the Cold War all addicts. Something we haven't

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seen for much of the past two decades. It gets to the very

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credibility of the UN, doesn't it? People here that the UN Security

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Council is meeting to discuss a situation in Syria or Ukraine or

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Iraq and this year alone there have been 20 discussions about Syria and

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yet nothing concrete or meaningful ever seems to get done and that

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undermines and corrodes credibility. I look at the UN now

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and see it as separate from the as the leader of the government. You

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have the UN organisation or a peacekeeping mission or human

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rights development and then you have the politics of the UN which is the

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member states regimes and positions presented. A

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far right perspective of opinion where it is not easy to get

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consensus. It is not easy to take things forward in a situation where

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inevitably, the views and differences are very great. It is

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the role of diplomacy to try to bridge those differences whether it

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is the Security Council itself or the work you do with the warring

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factions of a country. Not easy tasks. Know and I get the point

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about how much frustration you must feel. If the member states of the UN

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are incapable of delivering decisions, it comes back to what is

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the point of so much of the work that you do? Without the political

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lead coming from the member nations of the UN, the work you are doing is

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constantly getting undermined? It can certainly limit its impact but

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the thing I like about leading a major development agency is that

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every day, there is something positive you can do. The politics is

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going on and the Security Council in the country that there is still

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something positive you can do every day and I am a very task oriented

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person so I like that. I am interested to hear you say that

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because at the beginning of the year, there was some talk about you

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being the next General Secretary of the United Nations and you had said

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that you would consider it if there was enough support for the style of

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person you are. What sort of style do you have and what would you do in

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the job? We have to address three issues and one is certainly the

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style, traditionally it has been a diplomat and that is not my

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background. Does it need to be someone much more confrontational

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who will tell it like it is? To the member states want that or do they

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want the traditional diplomatic style? That is the first question

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and the second is, is it time for the first woman? The third is for

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regional groups, who's turn is it and that determines whether any

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particular person is a possibility or not. You have laid out three very

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interesting questions. What are your answers? Yes, yes and yes? I have

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many things I could do with my life. I have not fulfilled all the great

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ambitions I have for my life. If you are telling me that the UN needs

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someone more direct, I am going to need a more direct answer. That is

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the answer that member states will have to give you. You have to

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represent yourself to them and say this is what you need. If you are

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going to restore the credibility of this organisation, is that what it

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needs and argue the person to provide it? It is hard to say. The

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Secretary General has to be a person who brings people together and it

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is, in the and a job where you are working with a very diverse family

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and you have to support forging. Yes or no, do you want that job? I can't

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give you a yes or no answer because in the end, I think the member

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states have to work out what it is that they want and there will be a

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lot of debate over the answers to the three questions I gave you. We

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will revisit this another time. Helen Clark, ain't you for being on

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HARDtalk. `` thank you. Some pretty big temperature

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contrasts across the British Isles on Thursday. Read the sunshine came

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out across England and Wales, it was a very warm day with temperatures up

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to 26 Celsius, one of the warmest days so far. We had a girl rain

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bearing

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