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Welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:08 | 0:00:11 | |
Is rising inequality a sickness that could yet kill capitalism? | 0:00:11 | 0:00:17 | |
The debate is currently raging in politics as well as economics. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
President Obama says income inequality is | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
the defining challenge of our time. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:27 | |
My guest today thinks that is to misunderstand 300 years | 0:00:27 | 0:00:31 | |
of global growth and enrichment. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
Influential economist Deirdre McCloskey focuses | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
on the enduring power of innovation rather than wealth distribution. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:44 | |
Is it OK for the rich to enjoy a party to | 0:00:44 | 0:00:47 | |
which no-one else is invited? | 0:00:47 | 0:00:52 | |
Deirdre McCloskey, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:22 | |
Thank you. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
Let's start with the sort of mammoth undertaking you are | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
involved in to sort of chart the massive rise in material | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
prosperity in the industrialised West over 300 years or so. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:34 | |
What do you believe is the base cause | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
of that massive rise in prosperity? | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
Innovation, smart ideas, and then, behind that, | 0:01:40 | 0:01:45 | |
the freedom and personal respect that became a movement in England | 0:01:45 | 0:01:56 | |
and Scotland and what became the United States in the 18th century. | 0:01:56 | 0:02:04 | |
I suppose the immediate question from that is, why the sudden burst | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
of innovative economic activity? | 0:02:07 | 0:02:11 | |
Why the new generation of ideas people coming around | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
in the 18th century, 19th century? | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
That is volume 3. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
You have got to make your early orders for. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
It is almost finished. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
More or less by accident, in Europe in the 16th, 17th, | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
18th century, there was prepared this new equality, this new equality | 0:02:32 | 0:02:38 | |
of freedom and respect for people. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:45 | |
They had a go. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
So the word equality has already appeared in your thesis. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:50 | |
What we see today is this raging debate about the corrosive impact | 0:02:50 | 0:02:56 | |
of inequality. | 0:02:56 | 0:02:57 | |
The idea that the inequality that is rising in income and wealth | 0:02:57 | 0:03:01 | |
accumulation in the industrialised West is actually threatening to | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
undermine capitalism itself. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:09 | |
You have talked about inequality already so should I | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
take it that you worry about that? | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
I am concerned about the condition of the working class. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
I am not concerned about how many yachts some heiress has. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:25 | |
Although, I am finding it annoying that I do | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
not have a 100 foot yacht and crew! | 0:03:28 | 0:03:33 | |
It is not the expenditure at the high end that cause poverty | 0:03:33 | 0:03:40 | |
at the low end. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
As long as that is not the case, let them have their party. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:48 | |
It is foolish but it is not the real problem. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:53 | |
The real problem is poverty and the solution to that is not | 0:03:53 | 0:03:58 | |
going after the rich. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:01 | |
We will get to solutions in a second. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
I just want to make sure that I have understood | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
your economic philosophy correctly. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
If one pictures an economic pie and slices it up, the argument right now | 0:04:08 | 0:04:14 | |
is whether more and more of the pie, even if it is growing, is going to | 0:04:14 | 0:04:21 | |
the rich so that, in absolute terms, the poor and even the middle class | 0:04:21 | 0:04:26 | |
as well are actually getting a smaller piece of pie. I do not | 0:04:26 | 0:04:34 | |
think that is actually true. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
It is asserted all over the place but I don't think it is true. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
This is where data comes into it. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
Thomas Piketty, the French economic historian, and many others, too, can | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
cite figures that show that while there has been significant GDP | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
growth, the middle class and, still more, the poor, have not benefited. | 0:04:53 | 0:05:04 | |
Indeed, they are are no more better off | 0:05:04 | 0:05:05 | |
today than they were 30 years ago. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
That is false. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
Even his own figures do not show that. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
He has done a fine book. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
He is an honest man but he is predisposed to see this | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
absence of growth. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
In real terms, that is in terms that allow for the improvement of the | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
quality of goods, ordinary people, ordinary, very poor people and the | 0:05:30 | 0:05:35 | |
middle class have gotten better. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:37 | |
Let me quote you Barack Obama himself who, in the last year, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
has said that income inequality represents the greatest challenge | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
of our time. | 0:05:43 | 0:05:45 | |
He said, looking at America today and seeing | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
how the poor find it so very difficult to lift their children out | 0:05:47 | 0:05:52 | |
of poverty, Americans have to accept that they can and must do better. | 0:05:52 | 0:06:01 | |
It is not the material condition of the poor that is the main problem | 0:06:01 | 0:06:06 | |
in a modern economy. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:09 | |
In a rich economy like the United States or Britain, ordinary goods | 0:06:09 | 0:06:18 | |
and services are, in historical terms, cheap and available. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:29 | |
The problem is education, attitudes that need to be changed. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:45 | |
For instance, in this country, ordinary, working class people do | 0:06:45 | 0:06:51 | |
not feel welcome at university. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:56 | |
That has to be changed. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
I am concerned about the poor. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
I am not concerned about the rich. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
I want to focus on the poor and how the state and interventions | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
can best help the poor. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
I want to stick with the rich one time. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
It is a topical issue, thanks to Mr Piketty and others. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:16 | |
Here is one more piece of data that I want to put to you. | 0:07:16 | 0:07:22 | |
It is from Paul Krugman, who has coined this phrase about | 0:07:22 | 0:07:24 | |
the new gilded age, which he thinks is corrosive to economic wellbeing. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:31 | |
The share of national wealth enjoyed by the top 1% | 0:07:33 | 0:07:35 | |
in America halved after 1900. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
It has gone all the way back up in recent times to where it was | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
in 1900. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
We have got this U-shaped curve and he says that is one | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
of America's biggest problems. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
I agree with Paul about 50% of the time. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:59 | |
The other 50% is the problem. | 0:07:59 | 0:08:05 | |
One very serious problem is that those calculations don't account | 0:08:05 | 0:08:10 | |
for human capital. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
It is an immensely important part of the modern economy. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:20 | |
All these are concerned with physical and financial capital. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:25 | |
Most people earn their income from their brains, not their backs. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:32 | |
It is very wrong to say that capital has become more concentrated | 0:08:32 | 0:08:39 | |
since 1900. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:43 | |
It has gotten much less concentrated. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
The fundamental standard of comfort, equality and the standard | 0:08:47 | 0:08:52 | |
of comfort has improved since 1800, 1900, not gotten worse. | 0:08:52 | 0:09:01 | |
One of the reasons why there is a lot of contention and dispute about | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
the data and the meaning of the data is because it is becoming more | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
and more apparent that a lot of the wealth owned by the wealthiest in | 0:09:08 | 0:09:13 | |
Western society is actually off the radar. It is part of a globalised, | 0:09:13 | 0:09:18 | |
offshoring, financial, sophisticated economy which means it does not | 0:09:18 | 0:09:23 | |
necessarily get taken into account for tax purposes in the nation state | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
and all that sort of thing. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
The argument of Krugman, Piketty and others is that this has | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
to be addressed. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:35 | |
One of the fundamental problems is that the rich have dominated | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
the political system to a point where the tax system, the political | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
game itself is dominated by the interest of the most wealthy. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:49 | |
I don't think that is true. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
US politics is money politics. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
In the last presidential election, there was an attempt to buy | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
the election by the very rich and it failed. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
They did not succeed. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
They were certain that they were going to be able to throw | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
Barack Obama out of office. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
Surely the message is that the big-money backs both sides. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:18 | |
Neither Democrats nor Republicans represent anything | 0:10:18 | 0:10:20 | |
but the interests of big money. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:25 | |
It has always been so. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:27 | |
It is the golden rule. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:32 | |
Those who have the gold rule. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
In journalism and academic life, we must lean against that. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:42 | |
So you would argue that capitalism today is as vigorous, dynamic | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
and destructive - creative and destructive - as it has ever been. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
Yes. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:53 | |
It is crucial to include the rest of the world. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:57 | |
If we focus only on old Europe and the United States, | 0:10:57 | 0:11:01 | |
as these calculations do, we will miss that in China | 0:11:01 | 0:11:06 | |
and India, economic growth is going at 7-10% per year in real terms. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:16 | |
I would say that is another argument against your...if | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
I can put it this way, your economically liberal, University | 0:11:19 | 0:11:24 | |
of Chicago, economic philosophy. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
You cannot tell me that the success of Chinese capitalism is based on a | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
pure adherence to market philosophy. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:37 | |
Purity is not attainable. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
Pure capitalism, pure socialism. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
China is state-managed capitalism. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
It works. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:47 | |
We must not be comparing perfect capitalism and perfect socialism. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
We must not be comparing outcomes. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
What has happened in China and India is massive doses of the market. | 0:11:53 | 0:12:00 | |
In both countries, the state is still powerful. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
Managed by the state and with massive interventions | 0:12:03 | 0:12:05 | |
from the state. | 0:12:05 | 0:12:09 | |
Yes, interventions and different forms of capitalism but the outcome | 0:12:09 | 0:12:17 | |
is, with the introduction of more market freedom, both of these | 0:12:17 | 0:12:27 | |
countries have grown astoundingly. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:32 | |
That is available to countries I know and love well. | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
It includes South Africa and Brazil. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
When they see it as well, the world will become as rich | 0:12:40 | 0:12:45 | |
as the United States. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:50 | |
You were talking about the way that the focus needs | 0:12:50 | 0:12:52 | |
to be not on the distribution of wealth and inequality but | 0:12:52 | 0:12:56 | |
on the baseline prosperity or otherwise of the poorest. | 0:12:56 | 0:13:04 | |
If I may continue the thought, the argument is that what is | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
happening to the poor and the rise in inequality is directly and | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
relevantly corrosive of economic efficiency because we are not | 0:13:10 | 0:13:15 | |
maximising in Western economies the education, the social | 0:13:15 | 0:13:20 | |
and economic care of our poorest and, therefore, the potential that | 0:13:20 | 0:13:22 | |
they represent is being lost. | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
I agree. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:28 | |
I think that it is scandalous how bad the schools are | 0:13:28 | 0:13:31 | |
in large urban areas in the United States and Britain and, | 0:13:31 | 0:13:35 | |
for that matter, France. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:40 | |
The solution is not more socialism. | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
Surely the solution, they would say, is to use redistributive tax to | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
spend more on educating the poor, on giving them fair opportunities. | 0:13:48 | 0:13:57 | |
I am very willing to be taxed to pay for superior education. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:08 | |
I am all for it. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
I am not prepared to be taxed for a state-provided education. | 0:14:11 | 0:14:14 | |
That is the distinction. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
In Sweden, in the 1990s, they introduced private academies. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:21 | |
A substantial number of children go through them. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:26 | |
It has been very successful. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
I am willing to pay through the market to make schools work. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:36 | |
They do work, in fact, in large parts of Britain | 0:14:36 | 0:14:43 | |
and the United States. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
I think it is wrong to say that schools and the provision for | 0:14:46 | 0:14:50 | |
the poor are worse than they were. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
They are not. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
They have improved. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:06 | |
If you look at Sweden, they looked at precisely the | 0:15:06 | 0:15:11 | |
difference between the economies of Scandinavia, and parts of Western | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
Europe and the United States. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:19 | |
They concluded that more unequal societies are unhealthy societies, | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
and a whole array of different measurements, from the number | 0:15:22 | 0:15:25 | |
of people in prison, suffering from stress and anxiety disorders, | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
those failing in their education... | 0:15:29 | 0:15:44 | |
I don't think that has anything to do with inequality, | 0:15:44 | 0:15:48 | |
in my own country, it has to do with these awful laws against | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
recreational drugs that we have, and an attitude that you find on the | 0:15:51 | 0:15:54 | |
conservative side of all countries. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:56 | |
Jail them, that will solve things. | 0:15:56 | 0:16:02 | |
It is not as a result of capitalism, but a result of the power | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
of the state. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
Used inappropriately. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
A monopoly of violence... | 0:16:11 | 0:16:12 | |
With respect, the power of the state is higher | 0:16:12 | 0:16:17 | |
in Finland or Sweden or Norway, than it is in the United States. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:22 | |
Wilkinson and Pickett, the academics who wrote this book, they concluded | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
that on so many different socio- economic measures, they were better | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
and healthier places to live. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
I am not against social democracy, in places like Scandinavia, I am | 0:16:31 | 0:16:37 | |
quite familiar with Sweden, I have lived a long time further south in | 0:16:37 | 0:16:44 | |
Holland, and they work quite well. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:48 | |
But the problem is, most states are not competent to do | 0:16:48 | 0:16:55 | |
social democracy well. | 0:16:55 | 0:17:00 | |
Italy, no Italian would suggest that it would be a good idea to give the | 0:17:00 | 0:17:04 | |
Italian state more money or power. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
Although some states of the United States are capable, others, like | 0:17:07 | 0:17:11 | |
my own, Illinois, they are not. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:16 | |
So, I think it depends where you are. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
It is not a universal feature of social democracy, | 0:17:19 | 0:17:24 | |
on the one hand, for every market. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:33 | |
-- a free market. On the other, it depends on the culture. | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
It is interesting, you have nuanced it in that way. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
If I may, I want to turn this conversation to be more personal. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
I want to stay with economics and history but reflect | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
on your own life journey as well. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
As my mother says, do not do anything more interesting! | 0:17:49 | 0:17:59 | |
Well, there have been a few people who have had a more interesting | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
back story than yourself! | 0:18:02 | 0:18:03 | |
You have been a highly-respected economist for a long time. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
For a lot of your career, you were Donald McCloskey, a male | 0:18:05 | 0:18:12 | |
economist, and now you are Deirdre McCloskey, a female columnist. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:19 | |
-- economist. You have said some interesting things. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
You said, as a young man, I learned to be | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
a standard issue male academic. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:25 | |
Now, I am much more female in my approach to economics. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:27 | |
Can you explain that for me? | 0:18:27 | 0:18:32 | |
I am more concerned about the poor, and the condition of the world | 0:18:32 | 0:18:38 | |
on children. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:43 | |
And, a great future depends on the spread of market, | 0:18:43 | 0:18:47 | |
and not corrupt governments. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:55 | |
And, I am more clear, I got a lot clearer about love, that L-word that | 0:18:55 | 0:19:02 | |
makes a lot of men uncomfortable. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
I do not read a lot of economic textbooks | 0:19:05 | 0:19:08 | |
where the love word comes up! | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
You have to read my books! | 0:19:11 | 0:19:24 | |
Why should the love word come up? | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
You have to read my books! | 0:19:27 | 0:19:41 | |
Why should blog someone like you, I go back to | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
your university background, and it is the primacy of the markets, | 0:19:43 | 0:19:46 | |
markets do not factor in love. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:47 | |
They do, they work through love, as does your studio. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
Every enterprise in a capitalist economy works | 0:19:50 | 0:19:53 | |
through solidarity, love, simply... | 0:19:53 | 0:19:58 | |
Common courtesy. | 0:19:58 | 0:20:03 | |
Greed is part of it, self-interest as part of it. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
My point is that any economy, socialist, capitalist, however you | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
wish, that is a mixture of the virtues of love and hope and faith. | 0:20:07 | 0:20:11 | |
On the one hand. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
And, the virtues of prudence, which it is. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:15 | |
Prudence, which, by itself, is called greed. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
When it is in tune with justice, courage, temperance, and love, | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
it works pretty well. | 0:20:20 | 0:20:24 | |
It is not as if there is a greed is good, I do not believe | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
that greed is good, I agree, that was the theme of the University | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
of Chicago when I was there. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:36 | |
A long time ago, I have to say. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
That is a foolish and boyish view of the world. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
Do you believe, reflecting on your own life and | 0:20:42 | 0:20:48 | |
intellectual experiences, that that was very much a male-driven agenda? | 0:20:48 | 0:20:54 | |
Absolutely, it is the soccer playing and ice hockey playing view | 0:20:54 | 0:20:59 | |
of the world, we are out there to compete, and to get a good soccer | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
team or an ice hockey team, you need an immense amount of cooperation. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:09 | |
Any enterprise, they have to have both. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
And, in fact, you can think of capitalism | 0:21:12 | 0:21:16 | |
and free markets that I admire. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:25 | |
You can think of them as huge systems of cooperation. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
Cooperation is often used by socialists and Democrats, | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
to counterpoint the competition word, that dominates capitalism. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:38 | |
They make a mistake. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:43 | |
The market itself, that is a way of persuading sweet talk. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:49 | |
Some remote person, to supply the material that makes this glass. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:56 | |
And, it is cooperation, what more would you call it? | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
We finish and reflect both new ideas and your personal story. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:12 | |
Do you believe, when you look around economic management on politics | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
and the world today, that it is still way too male orientated? | 0:22:15 | 0:22:20 | |
That the sort of economics approach you are bringing to the table are | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
not reflected in policy-making? | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
They aren't, and the problem is the economists. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:35 | |
The economists and the calculators, as it was famously said. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
They say that greed is good, and all that matters is the bottom line. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
But, in actual functioning, real enterprise, all of these | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
virtues have to be in play. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:47 | |
So that it does not turn into vice. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
So, I think that we need a rethink. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:56 | |
A rethink of market economies. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
We do not want to throw them away, they are fantastically valuable to | 0:22:59 | 0:23:06 | |
help the poor. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:13 | |
They are so much larger, in effect, then any redistribution that we can | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
do. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
Since 1800, incomes per head, in places like Britain and the United | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
States, they have not increased by a factor of 20 or 30, that helps | 0:23:23 | 0:23:27 | |
poor people a lot more than five, ten, 15% redistributions. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:32 | |
It is 2900%, versus 15%. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
Your contention is that it can have a market-based, market driven | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
capitalism with a human face? | 0:23:40 | 0:23:45 | |
Yes, I call it humanomics. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
We will leave it with that word! | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
Thank you, Deirdre McCloskey, for being on HARDtalk. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:58 | |
Guess who's... back. | 0:24:32 | 0:24:33 | |
Back... again. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
Dara's... back. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:38 | |
Tell... a... friend. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:39 | |
Now... this looks... like... a job... to me... | 0:24:39 | 0:24:42 | |
so... everybody... just... follow... me... | 0:24:42 | 0:24:44 |