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Welcome to HARDtalk. More than 06 journalists have been killed in | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
Syria's Civil War. Across the world, journalists have become target, as | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
never before. Murdered. Kidnapped and in the case of three Al-Jazeera | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
journalists in Egypt, locked up by the state for doing their jobs. My | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
guest today is Anthony Loyd, the award-winning war correspondent of | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
the times newspaper, who was shot and seriously injured in Syria last | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
month. Is the fear factor forcing journalists to retreat from the | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
front line? Anthony Loyd, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:45. | :01:17. | |
You came back from your most crept reporting assignment in Syria, | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
bearing scars, physical scars, mental scars as well. Are they | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
healing right now? They are, I feel pretty good and pretty strong, | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
considering what happened for the experience of being bound, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
blindfolded, beaten and shot. I feel quite strong on the back of it. You | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
put it in a way so Blythly there, but for people who round the world | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
who are not aware of what happened to you, we need to describe in some | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
detail how it happened. You had been going to Syria I believe more than | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
ten time, up to a dozen times since the start of the conflict there. | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
What was different this time? Why did it go so badly wrong? This time | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
it went bandly wrong for a reason that could have occurred on any of | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
the dozen or 14 assign.s I have done in Syria, we were betrayed by | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
someone we trusted, who decided at a point we still don't know, that we | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
were no longer worth being his friendly disposition and we should | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
be treated as a financial commodity. This is a rebel fighter? This is a | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
rebel fighter. A medium level commander in a fairly small town in | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
northern Syria, someone we had known for a long time over the course of | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
the last two-and-a-half years, it wasn't a few chance meetings. I | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
think I stayed with him probably four or five times in the last two | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
years, for periods of up to five or six days. Jack Hill the from | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
photographer staled with him too. Probably about three or four other | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
times journalists or photographers had stayed with man Hakim. You | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
didn't just know him, you trusted him. I wonder if you regarded him as | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
a friend? In way, I would have described him as a friend, yes, I | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
trusted him and he in his time was solicitor to us and kind to us. In | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
the way of Islamic traditions in the Middle East. He was an excellent | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
host, he looked after wassel. He took us off to the front line with | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
his men. He was brave in the way he looked after us and would drive us | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
across dangerous areas at night. He treated us very well. There was good | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
reason on the experience of his relationship with us in | :03:37. | :03:38. | |
two-and-a-half years to trust him. Then, back in May, just a few weeks | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
ago, you had been on a what was a very dangerous assignment in Aleppo, | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
dangerous because it's a war-torn city where the fighting continues, | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
you had come out of the city, you had gone to this safe house, you | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
thought, on your way into Turkey, at the end of your assignment, and you | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
discovered the hardest way possible that this man had decided you were | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
to become something to be profited from, but how did he do it? It was | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
ironic, as he left Aleppo, we left it on a single road, under heavy | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
fire, heavy direct fire which nearly took out my escort vehicle, with | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
four fighters who who were looking after me, I was with Jack Hill. We | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
drove on, out of Aleppo. By the time we cleared that road, he | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
drove on, out of Aleppo. By the time tar fat for no other reason that to | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
pay our respects to Hakim and to congratulate him on the recent birth | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
of his latest child, his little girl. So that was the reason, it was | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
a social reason to stop. He was going to escort you out They were | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
going to escort us out. We stayed the night in one of his house, we | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
dined with him, there was no indication, not a slightest pointer | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
that anything was wrong. The next morning left at 8.30 in the morning, | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
we asked him for escorts, because we were in a zone controlled by his | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
unit or a unit he would have done, he had a small group of guys so we | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
were given an escort, to do the final leg between the town and the | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
Turkish border, a journey of perhaps 30 minutes. As we said goodbye to | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
him, left with an escort vehicle up the front, about 15 minutes later, | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
by which time to me the assignment was almost finished. The Turkish | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
border was almost in sight, we went over the lip of a hill, and there, | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
heading in the same direction but at a slow speed was a dark coloured BMW | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
X 5 and everything about that vehicle, its speed, its position in | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
the road, told me that we were just about to be hit by kidnap gangs. | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
Which is the case, and to sort of telescope this story a bit, you were | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
forced out of your vehicle, into another vehicle, you were taken to | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
one and then a second sort of safe house, you were bound, ultimately, a | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
couple of your colleagues escaped. Then you tried to run too, but you | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
were then captured. There was a very violent and confused escape attempt. | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
We had been separated as a group within a vehicle, two of us were in | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
the boot and another two were in different parts of the vehicle. All | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
of us bound, and blindfolded, in a lock up garage, that, which had at | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
times one or two guards alongside the vehicle, who would thump the | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
vehicle and rock it or occasionally reach in and strike us, just to keep | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
us subjugated. At some point, the key figure here, our fixer, in the | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
boot, noticed that the boot was open ha half an inch so we wouldn't | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
suffocate. He managed, I don't know how, to slip out of his bonds, he | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
knew as a Syrian he was likely to be killed later that night, being of no | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
monetary value to the kidnappers, so he whispered his plan to Jack. They | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
overpowered the guard, at which point a very confused escape | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
attempt. They go off in one direction, I go off in another, over | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
the roofs, ultimately, the two Syrian staff escaped. Jack Hill was | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
recaptured by Hakim's men and I was recaptured too but not before I had | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
seen from the roofs that Jack had been overpowered in street by Hakim, | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
and his gang, and I could look down from the perspective of two storeys | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
up on Hakim, the guy who hosted us the night before beating Jack Hill | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
and he laid on the ground. Then he got do you eventually and he got do | :07:48. | :07:56. | |
you with a weapon. He got to me, I knew but was advantaged because some | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
locals saw us, there was no plan to escape, it happened. We hadn't | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
communicated among ourself, so it is a confusing scenario, I am bound, | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
running across the roofs. Local people had seen me. I am optimistic | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
that would count to my vantage. I dropped down into a compound, get | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
into a kitchen. I am trying to cut through the clamps with a knife | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
between my teeth. I heard a door getting kicked in, a load of armed | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
guards run in. They are Hakim's men, Hakim is in the street. He has a | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
weapon. I am beaten. They walk me up to him I said "I thought you were | :08:36. | :08:43. | |
our friend" and he pulled his gun and shot me. He pulled his gun and | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
shot you. A man you had known for two-and-a-half year, you at that | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
point thought you were going to die? Looking back, I can think that was a | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
pretty bad moment, but at the time, the event horizon was so short, and | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
I was so hyper adrenalised, that I was playing for the next second or | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
two. By the time I realised he had his gun, he has already shot me. At | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
which point I thought, well that was the double or quits moment, and I | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
will probably get away with this now because he didn't shoot me in the | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
head. He shot you in the lower leg, the ankle. Yes And you can | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
thankfully still walk. I am very lucky. Both bullets went in slightly | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
different directions, smashing up a bit but nothing too important. I | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
have spoken to you before a number of years ago, you struck me as a | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
journalist living on the edge. You have been even closer to the edge | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
now. I just wonder, I began by asking you not just about physical | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
wounds but mental wounds, how damaged have you been by what you | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
experienced in Syria, mentally? I don't think I have been that | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
damaged. We vexed the bad guy, we were deceived, we were bound, and | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
blindfolded, we were not armed. Yet at the end of it, we were the ones | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
who escaped, having identified that gang for what they were, a criminal | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
kidnap gang, leaving them to soak in their own bath water of infamy in | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
that part of northern Syria while we made good our escape. I feel pretty | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
strong psychologically. Do you, the point of the story surely, is that | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
entirely unconsciously you made a drastically bad judgment about this | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
man Hakim, you know, you thought he was trustworthy and he wasn't, and | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
it just raises all sorts of questions about whether journalists | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
in Syria today can, however experienced they are, have any real | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
idea of where the front lines are, who the guys they can trust are, it | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
just seems impossible. No. I don't think that is right. Sure, the | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
judgment was mine that we could trust Hakim, but betrayal is a | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
characteristic that there is potential in any human relation she | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
ship. It has in war. The prospect of betrayal is with the risks the same | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
as getting shot, blown up, something as be natural as your fixer doesn't | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
turn up on time. War is an extreme example, but betrayal, you know, is | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
a potential eventuality. So I was right to judge Hakim logically on | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
the basis of our relationship of two, two-and-a-half years. And right | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
to trust him. As it happened, things had happened in his life, I don't | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
know what they were... Did he try to contact you, in the weeks since this | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
happened have you had any contact with him? There was one brief | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
contact before I closed down the means of contact which was a | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
slightly nonsensical tirade about 24 hours later, and threatening as | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
well, saying don't mention my name or, he did try to say after, he said | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
we were spies and he tried to say that after, because he would have | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
to, that would have to be his justification to his own people | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
about why he did that to us. How do you feel about him now? Hate? No, | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
depend what kind of time of day you ask that question. I don't feel | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
hugely well disposed to him or his gang, but on the other hand, while | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
hugely well disposed to him or his we were his captives, the problem | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
was ours, as soon as we went over the fulcrum point of escape and Iraq | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
side Syria, the problem is their, him and his gang are an individual | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
and a group who have a reputation for making extremely bad decisions | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
and big mistakes, they are living in a Terry where there are serious | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
consequences for those mistake, so the situation is theirs now, it is | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
not mine, I am free. Let us talk noter about Syria and perhaps link | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
it to what is happening in Iraq, right now we see that swathes of | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
territory in Syria, perhaps even larger swathes of Terry in Iraq are | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
in the hands of the most extreme -- Terry, from the so-called ISIS | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
group, the Islamist state of Iraq, and they have made public their | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
desire to target journalist, they see journalists as agents of the | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
determined to get as close to the determined to get as close to the | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
witness to what is happening in places like Syria and Iraq, do you | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
see any possibility to go into areas, under the control | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
see any possibility to go into No, not under the control of ISIS. I | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
don't think, I don't think at all, I think that is, I have come close to | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
having a big problem with ISIS, in the months before it was completely | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
obvious who they were and what they were doing inside Syria. You have | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
met some of them in Syria? Yes, You have come away from that convinced, | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
you came away from it for a start which is perhaps miraculous in a | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
way, but you came away convinced that if you were to try to establish | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
any sort of journalistic contact with them, what, you would end up | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
dead or kidnapped? Yes, ISIS don't believe in, they have no interest in | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
journalists from democratic countries, coming to exercise their | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
right to freedom of speech or anything like that, that is just not | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
how they see the world. They see the States, the institutions, the | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
Governments of democratic countries as rotten, and they see journalists | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
as the agents of that rot, there is no desire from ISIS to have western | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
journalist, along. They have their own media organisations, and they | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
have no interest in western journalists coming along to report | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
fairly on what they are doing. Given the fluidity of front lines and the | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
increasing power they seem to be exercising, it raises the question | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
of whether even for the, you know, the bravest courageous of war | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
reporters, there are conflicts today, I am thinking of Syria and | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
Iran, which are becoming almost unreportable. It is very very | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
difficult. Iraq has been difficult for a long time. It became difficult | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
quickly after the Americans invaded to work among local people there. I | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
would say Syria is still just about possible, not to go into the areas | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
ISIS are controlling. What happened to me was unfortunate, but you have | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
to remember that by working war you are working in an environment where | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
every day people round you are shot, abducted, beaten. It is possible and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
has always been so, that that might happen to a journalist, you can't | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
exclude the possibility of that happening to you. Of course, you | :15:42. | :15:57. | |
have to accept the risks are very high. A very brave Italian | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
journalist said high. A very brave Italian | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
journalist this recently, she said, if we journalists are around or not, | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
Syrians see no difference. We have become the mirror and expression of | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
the international community's cynicism on Syria. I understand what | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
she is saying, but I don't think journalists should stop doing their | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
work just because of someone's perception of their work. They | :16:23. | :16:24. | |
should be true to their own integrity. We do our job not to | :16:25. | :16:32. | |
affect change, but at its purist, to report. It is someone else's job if | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
they are going to change the situation, the policy. We do our | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
job, to report. Now there is a point at which that might not be possible, | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
for example ISIS controlled territory. And there is a grey area | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
where it may be possible but at high risk. I don't think that's true | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
across the board, that perspective. I met people in Aleppo who were | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
still happy to see me. There were rebel fighters who were not only | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
happy to see me but they understand the need of having journalists. We | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
can't just close down everybody's eyes on Syria by not reporting. If | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
you believe it makes very little difference any more what you report | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
and how much you bear witness, because the world is now familiar | :17:22. | :17:23. | |
with the suffering of Syria, because the world is now familiar | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
with the suffering and frankly adding one more element to the story | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
may not make much difference at all. Human nature may suggest that if | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
that is in your mind, it is hard to get jewels of ready to take the | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
risks you have to take. I didn't find it too difficult. -- get | :17:40. | :17:48. | |
yourself ready. Your own editor has said very publicly about whether he | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
could let you go back again to Syria... He has committed a lot to | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
Syria. Until this point. And he has seen one of his staff escaped death | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
by that much. And another one was killed. Marie Colvin was killed in | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
mutton. People like your boss or going to find it very hard to | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
sanction your next trip to Syria. -- was killed in Homs. I would go back | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
to Syria, but in practice it would be foolish with the gang still at | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
large. In principle, I would go back. Things change in war, | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
situations change, people get removed, disappear, go elsewhere. In | :18:37. | :18:44. | |
essence, our job is to report. The necessity of bearing witness | :18:45. | :18:53. | |
transcends the perspective of other people towards journalists. Until | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
the point it becomes impossible. In Syria, it's not impossible still. | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
There are still journalists there now. You have worked across the | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
Middle East. I don't know if you have worked in Egypt. I lived there | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
for three years as a foreign correspondent. I am amazed and | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
horrified at what has happened to the three Al Jazeera journalists | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
doing their jobs, two of them have seven-year sentences and the third | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
man a 10-year sentence. It's horrifying. I just wonder whether | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
you today in Egypt would confront the reality that if you try to talk | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
to the Muslim brotherhood, you might well end up with a long jail term. | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
Would you do it or would you self censor? Would you avoid that? I | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
wouldn't self censor and avoid that. I would have to think for some time | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
beforehand. It is a different set of worries. Peter Greste and his two Al | :19:49. | :19:56. | |
Jazeera colleagues have been persecuted and jailed by a state. | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
Doing their job. That said a message to journalists around the world. It | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
is a whole set of different problems to what happens to me, I was taken | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
down by a criminal gang that was an offshoot of a rebel organisation. I | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
understand that but you strike me as a journalist who has a pretty black | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
and white view of your desire to bear witness and I am just wondering | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
whether, leaving aside the chaos that is Syria or Iraq today, but | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
enter the world of Egypt where a state has sent a message to | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
journalists saying, you abide by our rules, you play our game or we will | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
imprison you. What would your response be that? My response would | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
be to my editor that it would probably be easier to work in rebel | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
areas of Syria planned to work in a state-controlled area where the | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
state has sent a message as clearly as that. So you would not interview | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
with the Muslim brotherhood right now? I think the example of what has | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
happened to Peter Greste and his colleagues is an example which will | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
require a lot of reflection for anybody thinking of going to Egypt. | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
I haven't been asked to go... It's a difficult question to answer. I | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
wonder, by getting quite personal with you, because you have written a | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
lot about your motivations for journalism, and if your desire to be | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
on the front line... You have talked about adrenaline, the desire to push | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
your experience to the very edge and you have linked it to what was an | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
addictive personality and that for a time as a young man you had problems | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
with drink and drugs. How much have you changed since then? I think I | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
have changed a lot. I have been a journalist for 21 years. Some of my | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
motivations are the same. I would still say to anyone it's a very | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
exciting job, but one gets more altruistic as one gets older. If I | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
may say, you were quite narcissistic in your early days. Very. It was | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
almost as much about you as it was to bearing witness. 21 years ago, I | :22:10. | :22:18. | |
am 47 years old, one does learn humility and a bit | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
am 47 years old, one does learn the way. I am very interested in the | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
people on whom I report. What is interesting about that, many would | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
say if you have spent 21 years seeing human nature at its worst, | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
sometimes at its most depraved, the likelihood is that you would become, | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
frankly, more cynical, and you are saying you have become more | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
altruistic. Definitely, but the example of getting shot and beaten | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
up and whatnot... There were a lot of decent people there that day, a | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
lot of decent Syrians who were not only appalled at what happened to me | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
but helped me. There were moments of humour and kindness. From Syrians. | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
During some very extreme moments. I don't regard this as a wholly bad | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
experience. It was one of those things that happened. It was pretty | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
bleak. By the time you ended up as I did, naked wearing just handcuffs, | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
covered in blood, badly beaten with two gunshot wounds, you are hardly | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
thinking, this is a really smooth moving assignment. But there were | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
also moments of kindness and humour and eventually it was Syrians who | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
passed me across the border to Turkey. But you still have your | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
medical boot on, still unable to walk properly. In your mind, you | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
have no doubt that you will go back to those front lines and those | :23:43. | :23:51. | |
conflicts? No doubt at all. Because? This is an eventuality I didn't seek | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
or want, but I work in an environment where people get shot | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
and beaten up everyday. I didn't want this, but I actually feel | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
slightly advantaged by it. When I speak to people about jail, getting | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
beaten, getting shot and whatnot, at least I can speak to people now with | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
the empathy and understanding of knowing what it is like. Anthony | :24:17. | :24:23. | |
Loyd, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much | :24:24. | :24:25. | |
indeed. When Barbara and I | :24:26. | :24:43. | |
started the Review, we were seeking to examine | :24:44. | :24:45. | |
the workings and the truthfulness | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
of establishments. | :24:49. | :24:52. |