John Kerry - US Secretary of State HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. Nearly 50 African heads of

state, along with business leaders, diplomats, and activists, have

gathered here in Washington for what is being billed as the biggest`ever

engagement between the White House and Africa. When Barack Obama came

to power as the first African`American President, many

believed it would help Washington recalibrate its policy towards

Africa. In fact, Obama only made his first tour of African countries last

year, after winning his second term. This summit is aimed at boosting

investment and trade between the two. But many argue it may only be a

photo opportunity. My guest today is the US Secretary of State, John

Kerry. He talks Washington's policy towards Africa, and also looks at

the conflict in Gaza between Israel and Hamas.

Secretary of State John Kerry, welcome to HARDtalk. Glad to be with

you. Scott Eisner from the US Chamber of Commerce has said that he

and others have been pressing the Obama administration for years to

hold this kind of summit. To quote, he says if you want CEOs to pay

attention, they need the Commander in Chief to take charge. What took

President Obama so long? Well actually, this is something the

President has wanted to do for a long period of time, and I think we

have been working up to it. The President announced Power Africa,

early on in his administration, to help provide electricity to all of

Africa over the next few years. He announced a major food security

initiative Feed The Future. He has been working on that. The President

has grown our ability to be able to do what we have been doing in the

health sector. So he has been building up to this. But I think

there was a sense of ripeness that brought this moment about. I have

been in this for a long period of time. In fact, the minute I became

Secretary of State, I appointed Russ Feingold as Special Envoy, the

leading expert of the United States Senate, to become our Special Envoy

to go to the Great Lakes, to try and work with the Democratic Republic of

Congo. I personally went to Sudan. So I don't think we're late. It's

just that President Obama himself is the son of a Kenyan, and it took him

quite awhile to travel to Africa for instance, and hold a summit. Yes,

but I think if you look at the President, from the moment he became

President, we had a meltdown of our financial system. People have

forgotten, when he came in, job number one was providing jobs for

Americans, and getting our own economy moving. Now it is moving,

and we are growing, and the President is looking outwards. OK,

Ben Rhodes, the Deputy National Security Advisor in the White House,

has said as far as this Africa`US summit is concerned, the US bring

something unique to the table. What is it that the United States can

offer in terms of African policy that other nations cannot? Well,

first of all I think there is no country that is as entrepreneurial,

and combine science and technology and innovation in the way that we

do. Our country I believe is really unique in that regard, and many of

them are already involved in Africa. I mean, we have a company like

General Electric, for years, has been doing business in Africa. We

have Dow Chemical, for years it has been growing in Africa. They have a

huge number of projects going. So we have experience, and we don't come

into a place, as some countries do, with a simple deal, and simple

finance, and to bring our workers in or something else. Which countries

are you thinking of in particular? Is that China, in brackets? What I

am saying is that we come in, I think, with a willingness to work in

ways that train employees, build something, and increasingly, people

are looking at the downstream investment impacts for the long`term

here. Look, these things evolve. Nothing happens overnight. But over

the course of time, I think the US brings a remarkable set of

disciplines, and of capacity and technology, for transfer, that is

critical to Africa at this point. But critics like Jennifer Cooke,

director of the CSIS Africa Program, she says that there are other global

competitors. And of course, China, for instance, to take one statistic,

just has 150 commercial attaches across sub`Saharan Africa. The US

has eight. We are not ` I think there is a difference in approaches

between China and the United States. We are still the biggest investor in

Africa. And I am convinced that out of this conference will come even

more significant investment. We had a dinner last night with four

presidents of various ` four heads of government, presidents of various

governments, all of whom were extremely excited by what they heard

about the kind of partnership that was offered by the United States.

Where it is not just extractive, and selling one particular kind of deal,

but it is really structured and built around the needs of a

particular country, and has a much greater ability to be able to train

workers, provide workers with ongoing skills, and the longer term

employment capacity, which is very different from what other countries

and other companies do. You say that the United States,

unlike other countries, does not rely on natural resources, you do. I

know we do, but not only... So what is the difference? We are looking

beyond that. We also have extractive, and much of the

relationship until recently was defined by that. Our desire is to

move it well beyond that, and... What are the reasons for that?

Because we have listened to the people in Africa. And because we

hear from people in Africa that they want more than just that. They don't

want this relationship in which they are simply exporting oil and gas or

minerals of one kind or another. They want to build their countries.

Is that the reason... And we respect that and understand that because it

is critical to building civil society, respecting human rights, to

developing democracy, and ultimately, to being able to provide

stability. May I venture that there is another reason why perhaps you

are changing tack. Because of the shale revolution in the United

States, it means you no longer need Africa's oil. If you just look at

the figures, Secretary of State, 2008, $100 billion of oil imports

came to Africa from the United States. On current trends, it will

be just 15... If your theory were correct, we would not have to do

anything. We could just sit back and say, terrific, let's keep doing what

were doing. No. It doesn't work. If all we wanted was the extraction and

now we don't need it, then why aren't we turning away and going

something else? Because we have long had an engagement with Africa which

is in fact different than other people. We are the country that put

the PEPFAR initiative. PEPFAR Was George Bush's. It came from the

United States Senate. President Bush took it, yes. And we are proud of

it. And President Bush should be proud of it. We are all proud of it.

We also, the idea of Our Africa. That is an important effort that

will help change lives in Africa. But if you look at... I don't think

any country has tried to do as much as we do to help people build their

own indigenous abilities to be able to fight terrorism, and to build

their future. I'll give you another example. The African Great

Opportunity Act, signed by President Bill Clinton, and that allows... I'm

proud we helped write it in the United States Senate. It allows

African goods to come duty`free into the United States. But you know

what? 86% of those products that come into the US are petroleum

products. So I just use that as an example to say that actually the

United States is not, maybe, different from other countries.

Well, let you give you an example. I don't want to spend this valuable

time having a debate with you about how different we are. Let me give

you an example. Ford Motor Company invested $300 million in South

Africa. And it can export those engines from skilled workers in

South Africa, who now have jobs, to other parts of the world. And as a

result, 800 jobs were also created. I think in Kansas, where they have a

plant. So there is a symmetry in all of this. It is not just extractive,

and increasingly ` last night, we had a big healthcare company, Kirk

Pharmaceuticals, a pharmaceutical company, they want to be able to

bring lower cost medicine and vaccines and other things to Africa,

which will improve the quality of life. That is not extractive. For

sure, you do invest in Africa. Let me tell you what Aly`Kan Satchu, the

Chief Executive of Rich Management Nairobi, that has been approved by

the Nairobi Securities Exchange as an advisory service. He says look at

Kenya. America is already heavily invested. We issued a Eurobond in

Kenya where we borrowed $2 billion. 66% of that was bought by North

America. You see that North America is putting the capital down, as you

say, and Africa is then using it to build the structure. The irony is

that most of this stuff is being built by Chinese contractors, and

not the Americans. You're putting down the investment income, and

someone else is picking it up. Well, that's life. It also shows we are

not in it just to have our own contractors come over. We are doing

this because we know it's the right thing for Africa. And indeed, other

countries and other companies will benefit. More power to them.

Ultimately, this is good for Africa, and it's good for these countries to

have the stability and the capacity as they build. We will all benefit

from that, on a global basis. There will be less Boko Harams, less

Al`Shabaabs, there will be less cause for people to have their minds

filled with extremist ideology, rather than to engage in the broader

benefits of society. And we're interested in that, and I am glad we

are, as a country. Looking at this infrastructure point, when you say

you aren't just in it for the infrastructure projects. China have

been doing a great deal of that. China have taken over from the US in

trade with Africa, over $200 billion. Trade, but not invest. We

are the biggest investor. Yes. What does it tell you? That the Chinese

are just interested in infrastructure. How many Chinese

come to do the work? They understand there has been a backlash. The

African Union headquarters in Addis Ababa built to the tune of $200

million by the Chinese as a gift to Africa. It is not just constructive

diplomacy, it is construction. That is terrific. We welcome China. It is

not a zero`sum game. People need to understand that. There will be many

countries investing. Many people will be engaged in this. That is the

nature of the competitive, globalised world we live in today.

The important thing is to try to make sure that Africa develops in

ways that don't make some of the mistakes we did. I am speaking

specifically about energy and climate change and so forth. There

are things we can do to help. And other countries matter too. They

will benefit Africa, which is long overdue, with these kind of benefits

and inputs from the rest of the world. It is to everybody's benefit,

frankly. You and Michael Froman, the US Trade Representative, wish to

emphasise production in Africa. There is a pool of young people who

could provide a labour force. Does the US see Africa as the factory of

the world for the future to replace China? Not at the expense of cheap

labour and lack of rights and lack of working conditions and other

things that are important, that they raise the standards. Again, it is

something I think the US has helped drive. In many parts of the world. I

have been to Vietnam, China, I have been to places, into American plants

in those places and if you did not know you were in China or Vietnam,

you would have thought you had walked into a plant in Michigan or

somewhere else in America. It is clean. People are working. There is

a structure to it. Those are the kinds of benefits that flow out of

this kind of investment initiative and relationship and I think it's to

the benefit of the people who work there. Create jobs in Africa to the

detriment of the United States. President Obama says he is president

of the US, not Africa. How will that go down? When Ford invest $300

million in South Africa and you have 800 employees in the US who get jobs

because of that, because of the downstream supply structure, that is

to our benefit. We live in a different world today. No country

can survive as an island. You can't shut yourself off and have your own

production and sales routine to yourself and believe that you are

going to grow or get better or provide higher incomes for your

people. You can't do it. We need to move to various parts of the world

where people are desperately wanting modernity, where they want

electricity in their home, they want better food, they want clothing,

they want themselves to buy and share, they want to become

middle`class and then hopefully go on and make a lot of money

themselves. But that's what we are trying to engage in here ` global

growth from which everyone benefits, and I think what we are doing is

frankly good diplomacy as well as good economics. The Ambassador to

Washington says this Africa summit with the US gives Obama an

opportunity at the end of his term for people to see a clearly defined

legacy. What will that be? The legacy clearly will be this

remarkable growth and development that takes place in Africa and

begins to benefit the world, begins to bring people together and offer

an alternative to some of the poverty and extremism that fills the

vacuum. That is one thing. Beyond that, the President's legacy won't

be defined by one specific initiative. This President has

passed healthcare for all Americans. The President who saved the economy

at a time when it was in crisis. Who has created... There are a series of

things in counterterrorism and other things. Not defined by one thing. It

will add to that, sure. Inevitably, the focus has been on the Africa`US

summit, but you have committed time to talking on the situation in Gaza.

If you look at the situation, close on 2000 Palestinians have been

killed, around 70 Israelis, a handful of them civilians, but most

of them soldiers. You've got 8000 injured people, houses reduced to

rubble, 40,000 homes reduced to rubble, damage of about $6 billion.

There is a great deal of outrage amongst political and international

public opinion. Your own State Department described one attack as

disgraceful. The question is, does Washington fully support Israel in

its offensive in Gaza? Fully support? We fully support Israel's

right to defend itself and the fact it was under attack by rockets, by

tunnels, and it had to take action against Hamas. Hamas has behaved in

the most unbelievably shocking manner of engaging in this activity

and, yes, there has been horrible collateral damage as a result of

that, which is why the US work very hard with our partners in the

region, with Israel, with Egyptians, with the Palestinian Authority, with

President Abbas, to move towards a ceasefire. Finally that ceasefire is

hopefully in place in a way that can allow parties to come to the table

and be able to not only deal with the question of how to have a

sustainable ceasefire, but the more critical, underlying, long`term

issue of how we are going to make peace. How we are going to eliminate

these rockets and demilitarise and move towards a different future.

That is our goal. This is an important beginning with the

ceasefire and hopefully the talks to get there. The Palestinians, not

just Hamas, but President Abbas, they say you have to lift the

blockade, the siege. There has to be a giving on both sides with respect

to these issues. You have to begin to make life better for the

Palestinians. We made that very clear in the ceasefire announcement

that we had a few days ago. It did not hold, unfortunately. Now, we

hope this will hold. Perhaps because Israel is drawing down and pulling

people out. It has finished its tunnel work. There will be a greater

space here. What we want to do is support the Palestinians and their

desire to improve their lives and to be able to open crossings and get

food in and reconstruct and have greater freedom. But, that has to

come with a greater responsibility towards Israel, which means giving

up rockets, moving into a different place. Where will that finally come

together? It will come together when you have a bigger, broader approach

to the solution of the underlying issues of two states of people who

will be able to have rights protected because they will be

respected in the context of those two states, which have security for

Israel, guarantees for a better life and for greater freedoms for the

Palestinians. That's the formula. You must see the outrage

internationally. Obviously, the US provide Israel with $3 billion

annually in military expenditure. Iron Dome is funded by the US.

Critics say, this is the US somehow facilitating the collateral damage

that you mention, that is, nearly 2000 civilians... The US stands

behind Israel's right to defend itself and we do not believe it is

appropriate for any group, particularly in the circumstances

that we have seen, this terrorist group, Hamas, to be flying rockets

against civilians randomly into the country. Tunnels coming underneath

in kibbutz, people we have seen discovered with handcuffs and

tranquilliser drugs ready to capture people in the midst of their daily

lives. No country can live with that condition and the US stands squarely

behind Israel's right to defend itself in those circumstances,

period. Are you disappointed there has not been any kind of real

settlement? We are working on it. I believe in those possibilities and I

believe in this situation that has evolved now, perhaps it will

concentrate people's minds on the need to get back to the broader

negotiations and try to resolve the issues of the two states. The US

remains deeply committed to helping to make that happen. It has to

happen. It's not gonna happen through terrorism. It will happen

through negotiation. It will happen through the appropriate leadership

of President Abbas and through the willingness of others to sit at the

table and negotiate. Secretary of State John Kerry, thank you very

much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.

Thank you for joining me and tuning in to our extended nightly

forecast. We will look into the trends well into the next week. Let

us talk about the here and now. Wednesday was not such a bad day

across the country, at