Masrour Barzani HARDtalk

prices. More on our top stories at 1:00am.

Now on BBC News, HARDtalk. Welcome to the programme. The UN

says there is a major humanitarian crisis in northern Iraq. It is more

than a week since Iraqis, especially minorities like the Yazidi people,

fled their homes after jihadist stormed their towns and villages,

reportedly killing hundreds. There have been eyewitness accounts of

people beheaded and whole families buried alive. Now, thousands of

people are stranded in a hot and barren mountainous region. Many have

died through dehydration and a lack of food. My guest is Masrour

Barzani, head of Intelligence and Security Committee rockKurdish

region. Is it the Kurds who can rescue the State of Iraq and how

much `` how much help do they need from outside to defeat the jihadists

of the so`called Islamic State? Welcome to the programme. How

surprised you buy the games that the jihadists have made? We are very

surprised. In fact, we have seen very rapid growth from ISIS since

the fighting in Syria. And then rapidly, they grew into a much more

large organisation. We are now dealing with a state of terrorists,

not just an organisation. They have grown in number and control a much

larger territory. And they have much more and better weapons. The defeat

of the Syrian and Iraqi army has given them much more power and we

are facing that today. Tuesday the defeat of the Syrian and Iraqi army,

but the fact of the matter is that the Peshmerga forces, according to

one BBC correspondent, people are too scared to go back because they

have seen the Kurdish forces just melting away. Like I said, they were

an organisation. After taking all the weapons from the Syrian and

Iraqi army, they have become a much stronger organisation. And now, they

are outgunning the Peshmergas and as a result of the firepower that they

have Tom they have the upper hand. `` as a result of the firepower that

they have, they have the upper hand. They have been able to take large

sections of land including Sinjar and different parts of Kurdistan.

The Peshmergas stopped them where they were and pushed them back and

have retaken these towns and villages. In this situation right

now, we are in constant fighting and the battle is going on in different

parts of the engagement line between us and them. We are sharing a border

of 150 thousand kilometres with ISIS and with all the weaponry they have

seized from the Iraqi military, they have been able to bring most of

those weapons to the front line to fight the Peshmergas. The problem is

that the Peshmergas do not have the same kind of weapons to fight back.

I will ask about that in a moment. First of all, since June, as you

say, the jihadists have made huge gains, seizing about one quarter of

the territory of Iraq. There you are, the head of intelligence and

security for the Kurds in Iraq. Your security was inadequate. We were

taken by surprise, you say. Shouldn't you have known better the

capabilities that the jihadists had? We knew about their intention. We

had good information about ISIS when they moved into the southern part of

Mosul. We communicated with the Iraqi government at the time and we

want that ISIS was intending to enter Mosul. Unfortunately, Baghdad

was not very responsive and they did not want our cooperation at the

time. Until they took Mosul. When they took Mosul and five divisions

of the Iraqi army left their posts and their guns... That is the

surprising point for us. It is not just the Iraqis, is it? Is not just

the Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad that was a failure. President Obama

has said that there is no doubt that ISIS's advance, the movement over

the last several months, has been more rapid than the intelligence

estimates and the expectations of policymakers both in and outside of

Iraq. Even American intelligence failed. I would not say it is a

failure but everybody underestimated the power of ISIS. I think the

turning point for ISIS was when they managed to wipe out all these units

of the Iraqi military in and around Mosul in less than 48 hours. That

gave them much more power and nobody anticipated such a quick victory for

ISIS. The US is giving you arms, ammunition and artillery. The French

also will be giving you arms. Is that going to be enough? Can it then

leave the Peshmergas, the Kurds, who can rescue Iraq? Everything we have

received so far is insufficient. We have received some ammunition and

some might machine`guns but nothing as effective as what we are asking

for. We hope that they will reconsider and tried to equip

Peshmergas with heavy arms that will be more effective in terms of

fighting ISIS and hopefully fighting ISIS and hopefully

defeating them. You know, the US, of course, Chuck Hegel, the Defence

Secretary, says that there are 130 American military personnel on the

ground, giving the Iraqis advice as to how to tackle this jihadists

threat but they say there will be no more help than that. There will be

no more combat troops. You say you can do the job without combat troops

from outside. Are you sure of that? Yes, as long as they continue

providing the air strikes and expanding the airstrikes against the

critical targets of ISIS and provide us with the right armament, I am

sure that we can do the job without having to ask for any more soldiers

from elsewhere to come. We do not need soldiers. Like I said, we need

armaments and then the airstrikes to continue. There is some reticence in

some quarters that, if you are on the Kurds, you are favouring one

faction in Iraq over other side. And when this question was put to

Colonel Cedric Leighton, the retired intelligence and former member of

the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, he said that the US is certainly

choosing the Kurdish side. There is a danger in that. If we are not

careful, we could very much bring about the de facto part decision ``

partition of the Iraqi state. That is a legitimate concern, isn't it?

Let me make a point, here. Peshmergas, in fact, as part of the

overall defence policy of Iraq, were deprived of receiving any military

aid from the Iraqi government or from anyone anywhere else.

Peshmergas have the duty to protect Kurdistan but when it comes to the

rights of arming the Peshmergas or even paying the Peshmergas, the

Iraqi government was reluctant to provide those kinds of support to

the Peshmergas. It is our right to be armed to protect this part of

Kurdistan. In fact, for any political decisions that Kurdistan

will make or has made, it is not going to use military force to

enforce these decisions. We believe in dialogue, we believe in a

peaceful, democratic negotiation with the federal government. And if

there is anything that has to be done in the future, the Kurds will

not rely on weapons or do not think of achieving their goals by violence

or military means. Who do you think you are fighting for to protect the

6.5 million people who live in your autonomous region? Or are you

defending the whole of Iraq against the jihadists? Which is it? We are

fighting on behalf of the world, not just for Iraq. We are fighting on

behalf of the world. This is an organisation that does not recognise

any borders, does not have any respect for human rights, does not

have any respect for religious or ethnic minorities. We now are

hosting 1.2 million by degrees, more than 250,000 Syrian refugees, more

than 100,000 questions that have fled from different parts of the

country and now are here in Kurdistan, and tens of thousands of

other minorities and people and even Sunnis and Arabs that are in

Kurdistan. All these people have come to Kurdistan to feel safe and

it is our responsibility to protect all of these people, to protect the

Kurdistan region, and also contributes to a better situation in

Iraq and, as I said, this is a fight, a war that we are fighting on

behalf of the entire region, the entire world. And for the whole of

Iraq? And all of Iraq, yes. Now, the Kurds have obviously make no

pretence that they have had huge issues with the Prime Minister Nouri

Al`Maliki, who has been in power for about eight years. You have major

animosity towards quite clear. He is seen as a divisive figure by many in

the international community. Now, the new president of Iraq, also a

Kurd, has nominated a new president from Nouri Al`Maliki's block, Hagar

as a baddie, to be Prime Minister. Is that something you welcome? Is

this someone you can do business with, Haider al`Abadi? I hope this

will be a moment for positive change in the country. There is not a

personal problem between Kurdistan and Baghdad or any individual. There

is a problem in the system in the country. If you look at what

happened in the past, the former prime minister in Iraq did not

implement the constitution and was very subjective in terms of dealing

with the articles of the constitution. Everything that was

very important to the Kurds like the implementation of Article 140, which

deals with the disputed territories, or the armament of the Peshmergas or

the budget of the Kurdistan region, oil and gas laws, all of these

issues were left hanging and they did not implement these articles of

the constitution. That led to a deterioration in relations between

our capital and Baghdad. Our problem is not really with an individual but

with the system. We hope that there will be a different system in

Baghdad that will accept the power`sharing and would include all

main components of the country in the next government. The Sunnis were

outcast, the Kurds were ignored and marginalised systematically. Here,

if the new prime minister is coming up with a new plan, a new agenda

that would include all components of this country and is willing to share

power with everybody and is committed to implement the

constitution, I believe there will be a good future for the country and

for the cooperation between edible and Baghdad. Would that make it less

likely, then, that the Kurds in northern Iraq will not press for

independence? The self`determination for the Kurds is a God`given right

of the Kurdish people. And it depends on how the situation will

evolve in the future. But in terms of whether or not the Kurds will

still be thinking of independence, I must tell you that every occurred in

their heart believes that they should have the right of

self`determination and to make their own choice of how they want to live.

Self`determination and autonomy are quite different from independents.

You are the son of the President of the Kurdish regional government in

Irbil, and your father said, when asked to join a regional

government, after recent events in Iraq it has been proven that the

Kurdish people could seize the opportunity now. The Kurdistan in

people should now determine their future. Do you think that he, or

you, want to stay or go from Iraq completely, become independent?

Well, let's look at the facts. We are in a country that the Baghdad

were Iraqi government does not control all of it. We are neighbours

with ISIS, not with Baghdad. We share a 150 kilometres border with

ISIS. There is tension between Kurds and Sunnis. So let's see how this

situation will lead us to a better Iraq. If, you know, we accepted to

be a part of this country according to the Constitution, to be a federal

pluralistic country. If this country is going to be the country for all,

if everybody feel safe and secure, and there is less tension between

Shias and Sunnis, the Kurds are not going to be the one, let's say,

making more problems. It is not the Kurds who have torn the country

apart. A country is practically divided into three different parts

anyway. It is the new responsibility of the Kurds to protect their

citizens and their territories. So that will remain to be seen. You

have to see how successful Baghdad will be to include the Kurds and

Sunnis in the next government. If not, the Kurds will certainly not

watch ISIS, to be partners in this country. And they have to make

decisions to protect their land and their people. And that has to be...

Go ahead, sorry. You say it is up to Baghdad and the other elements in

Iraqi society to make unity attractive. But the fact of the

matter is that you have already been demonstrating in your region, a

great deal of independence when it comes, for instance, to oil. You are

looking to sell your oil direct lead to other countries, through the

pipeline to Turkey. Turkey, for instance. And also making deals with

oil traders and oil companies. And the US has actually put Russia on

you, not to do that, and on companies not to buy oil direct feed

from you, but to buy it from the central authorities in Baghdad.

Kurdistan, or ARG, has not done anything out of the Constitution.

The Constitution very clearly states how to deal with the oil and gas.

The oil fields are going to be managed in co`ordination by the

Federal Goverment, in co`ordination with the regions. All the new fields

are going to be managed and controlled by the regional

government in co`ordination with the Federal Goverment. The Federal

Goverment does not come, you know, forward, to deal with the KRG, to

settle this problem. Either way, Iran does not have a law to state

that is something legal or illegal by the Kurds. Still there is the old

regime's law in place in Iraq. So Iraq does not have a law to accuse

the KRG that they are doing anything illegal, and according to the

Constitution, everything that the KRG is doing is completely aligned

with the Constitution. In terms of the security and the Peshmergas, and

everything KRG has done, they have done at exactly the Constitution

allows them to do. But unfortunately all the successes that we have seen

in Baghdad, did not lead Baghdad, in Kurdistan, was not enough to

encourage Baghdad to support Kurdistan. In fact, they to have

Kurdistan remain where they are. Because they were not able to be as

successful as Kurdistan. But you know, the fact of the matter is,

your big supporters, your big allies, the US, have made it clear

they want you to remain within a united Iraq. The 4th of July, the US

Deputy Secretary of State for the near East said that the best way to

go is for the Kurdish region, a region to stay inside Iraq's

constitutional framework. The Constitution says very clearly that

implementation of this Constitution is the guarantee for the unity of

the country. The Constitution has not been respected and has not

implemented. So the Kurds have the right to make a decision that is

best suitable for their people. However, however, we have to go

beyond theoretical solutions to the problems in Iraq. There are some

serious problems that have to be addressed, and there has to be brave

decisions made. There is no trust between different components this

country. They don't trust each other, and everybody is afraid that

the other side is going to marginalise or to retaliate against

the other. So if anyone wants to have a permanent solution for Iraq,

they have to talk seriously to all Shias Kurds, and Sunnis, and find a

common denominator we will all be comfortable living together. If that

is in the former Federation, or if it is in the form of Confederation

of all falls parade in, but any outside theoretical solution is not

going to solve the problem, in fact it is going to make it more

combat`ready. Now you've got these issues all going on in Iraq. But the

matter that is getting a great deal of attention of course is this

terrible humanitarian crisis. You have explained that you up playing

host to many people fleeing persecution and violence from the

jihadists, you have limited resources to help. We have heard

dreadful stories, especially from Yazidis fleeing the jihadists, what

can you tell us about the humanitarian situation for the

thousands stranded in the mountains? Well, as you know, thousands of

families that managed to escape, to go to the mountains, are now there.

That they are protected by the units of the Peshmergas, but remained and

stayed with them. In fact, they have stopped ISIS from chasing them to

the mountains. They are short of food and water, and thankfully the

US has made a decision to drop aid to those people. In the UK has also

contributed to that in some other European countries we understand our

country bidding to providing aid to those people, in the Mt. But these

are not the only ones that are in trouble. There are still several

other villages and towns around the Mt that are surrounded by ISIS, and

are threatened to, you know, be persecuted. So there is a desperate

need for humanitarian aid for those people, and their evacuation to

safety. And also airstrikes and military action taken against those

ISIS units who are in and around the area, surrounding those villages and

towns. And that is ongoing. In fact in other towns and villages close to

Mosul, thousands of families have fled to Kurdistan to feel safer and

more secure in those areas. And ISIS is not going to stop, and they will

try to come to all of the areas if they came, so it is our

responsibility to stop them if we can. But we certainly need both

humanitarian aid for these refugees, or IDPs, to stop them from

advancing. Finally, the humanitarian crisis, can Iraq as we all know it

survive all of this? I hope it will survive, in one form or another,

because failure and being defeated by ISIS is going to be a disaster,

and is going to create a much bigger problem for the region and for the

world. You know that ISIS is an organisation that has attracted

foreign fighters from all over the world, and these people are not

going to stay here in Iraq. They will go stronger, and they will go

back to their countries of origin and pose the same sort of threat to

those countries. If they succeed in Iraq, they are just going to be a

much bigger problem for the world to deal with it later. Masrour Barzani,

in Irbil, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.

Hello there. At this time of day we tend to dip a toe in the water a

little further ahead. Look at what is going to happen over the next ten

days, and the trends that could affect as across the British Isles.

More on that in just a moment, but for the here and now