Olexander Scherba - Ambassador-at-large, Ukraine Foreign Ministry HARDtalk


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That is it. You are up to date. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Vladimir Putin is reported to have

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said he could take the Ukrainian capital Kiev in two weeks if he

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wanted to. As he offers increasingly brazen support to the pro`Russian

:00:25.:00:26.

rebels in eastern Ukraine, his message to the West is clear, don't

:00:27.:00:37.

mess with Russia. My guest today is senior Ukrainian diplomat, Olexander

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Scherba. Can Kiev afford to risk all`out war with Moscow?

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Olexander Scherba, in Kiev, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. It seems to me

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your government has experienced a dramatic reality check in the last

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week or two. It seems you believed it could be the separatist rebels

:01:30.:01:33.

militarily and now that looks like a major missed judgement. Would you

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accept that. `` Woodya accept that? I don't know whether you can talk

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about it as a major missed judgement. We played with the cards

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in our hands and we were basically winning this ward as you pointed out

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and you are absolutely correct. But, it is one thing to fight the

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terrorists to enjoy Russia's support and another thing to fight Russia

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who enjoys the support of terrorists. We have no alternative

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but to fight back. We have only one Ukraine. It wasn't our choice, this

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war. After a thousand options, this would be the last one we would pick.

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The reality is we have to fight back. I come back to the point about

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this judgement. Did you and the government ever seriously think that

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Moscow would simply watch as your forces rolled into and right through

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Luhansk, Donetsk and the other cities currently in the control of

:02:39.:02:43.

the rebels? `` missed judgement. We always knew that the full`fledged

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invasion was real. It was an option that we had to be aware of. But, we

:02:54.:03:04.

were hoping that the sanctions and the warning of further sanctions

:03:05.:03:10.

from the West would suffice to stop Putin. But, basically, the signal he

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is sending by moving in his regular troops is not only, don't mess with

:03:18.:03:26.

Russia, but that he doesn't care about what the West says. And, the

:03:27.:03:31.

West should maybe change the tactics on Ukraine. We will talk about what

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you want to see from the West in a second bite you blithely talk about

:03:38.:03:43.

the reality of Russian troops. Of course, Moscow denies that. They

:03:44.:03:48.

have acknowledged a few men, by accident, ended up on Ukrainian

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territory. They insist there is no wholesale invasion by thousands of

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Russian troops. What is your proof of your absolute proof that Moscow

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is lying about that? `` your proof, your absolute proof. First of all,

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there are satellite pictures. Second of all, there are Youtube... Youtube

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is flooded with reels of Russian tanks rolling in. Not everything you

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see on Youtube is quite what it seems, is it? I am sure that you

:04:25.:04:30.

know that. Third of all, Russian troops aren't really concerned with

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secrecy. Almost every second, Russian soldiers have an account on

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social networks and they are blurting out openly where they are

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and what they are doing. So, these three... The first evidence is the

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most important. The satellite pictures from Nato which leaves no

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room for any other interpretation. Russian troops are in Ukraine. They

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are a big. By the way, the first proof is the words by the

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separatists themselves, their so`called Prime Minister just one

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week ago thanked Russia on camera publicly for 1200 troops and 70

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military vehicles supplied to Donetsk People's Republic. That was

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one or two weeks ago. You can imagine it is much bigger. Maybe,

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the ultimate proof, although it is something that you just have to take

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as read in a sense, is that the total balance of military power in

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the east has changed. In recent days, your forces... Absolutely.

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Your forces have been made to retreat from Luhansk Airport, a

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major strategic air port. We have seen barrier poll, an important

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strategic city, under threat. It is obvious that your Ukrainian military

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forces cannot compete `` Mariupol. The separatists seem able to call on

:06:10.:06:16.

extra firepower. It depends on the spirit. 300 Spartans couldn't

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compete with the army of Dareus the great. But, they did what they did

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and we believe in our army. We know that we are on our land and we have

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nowhere to retreat. We have to fight back. Russians are on our land, they

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are the aggressors and they are slowly starting to realise that

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their role here is very doubtful. President Poroshenko in Brussels,

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speaking with EU leaders a few days ago said, I think we are close to

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the point of no return and that point of no return is full scale

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war. Is that something that you and other senior officials inside the

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key of government are now planning for, full`scale war between your

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country and Russia? It certainly is a possibility that we won't exclude

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under current circumstances. We are in a surreal situation right now

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because we say openly that Russia is conducting a war on Ukraine. But, we

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are avoiding the formulation that Ukraine is at war with Russia. So,

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it is a kind of diplomatic strange thing. But, we cannot afford right

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now to declare war on Russia and give them the pretext to basically

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send in brigade by brigade by brigade. How intimidated are you by

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the words of Vladimir Putin? It is reported that he said to Jose Manuel

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Flores so, the outgoing EU commission chief, I could take Kiev

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in two weeks if I wanted to `` Baroso. Are you fearful when you

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hear that message? I am not fearful. But, we are aware of how grave this

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situation is and we are still hopeful that the West will help us

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not only with words or sanctions, as important as they are, but in other

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ways that are obviously very important when a nation fight a

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war, especially with such a hateful and powerful enemy as Russia. You

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are one of Ukraine's top diplomats. You tell me what Ukraine makes of

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Western responses in recent days since we have seen the ratcheting up

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of separatist military operations in the east, the new southern front

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opening up, and EU Summit that we have had, which talked about

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expanded sanctions but did not deliver and said they would talk

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again over the following week to decide exactly what to do. You tell

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me what you make of that response. Well, I won't hide from you some

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messages that came from the summit were disappointing. To hear the

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words that we don't see a military solution to the conflict and won't

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supply Ukraine with weapons. It sounds good with Western audiences,

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but the thing is that the other side does believe in the military option.

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And, the other side has no scruples whatsoever to send in troops, to

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supply troops, to supply regular Army. This particular point was

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disappointing. Hang on, I have got to stop you there because you have

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opened up a new split with your own president. Petro Poroshenko has said

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in the past he does not believe that Europe or the West should supply

:10:02.:10:08.

arms to your forces and you seem to be suggesting that they should. What

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is Ukraine's real position? He said that Europe shouldn't supply the

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troops. That is our position. We don't expect troops, but we expect

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the equipment, we expect the military equipment. Right now, every

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soldier, I am sorry, every drunk in those areas, those troubled areas of

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Ukraine, is armed by Russia. Every person has a Kalashnikov in his

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hands. And, we are running out of weapons here. For instance, we are

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rather low on aircraft right now because Russia is so generous with

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supplying these so`called separatists. This is what the

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President was talking about. OK, so you do want arms, the problem is

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that the Europeans are divided on this and while you have the support

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of some European member states of the EU, that is I am thinking of the

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Lithuanian president who did say that we need to help Ukraine defend

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itself sending military materials. Your problem is that, rather more

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significant EU leaders starting with Angela Merkel, say, quoting her, we

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shouldn't create the impression that with weapons shipments and

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strengthening the Ukrainian army, we could create a solution. She simply

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does not see that as being in any way helpful. She also should be

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worried about not creating an impression that Europe gives up on a

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country who chose democracy and freedom and now is getting punished

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for it by a country that hates Ukrainian freedom and free Ukrainian

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democracy. I would strongly advise if Europe, the EU, because of major

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misjudgement, because of the fear of Putin, for whatever reasons, or just

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in the desire to have a successful recession in the economy, would give

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up on Ukraine, would let Russiasplit and dismember Ukraine.

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This will port Europe for ever. This would be the beginning of the moral

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decay for the European idea. This is the only wart right now in the last

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12 years that is purely about democracy and freedom. This is not

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Afghanistan, this is not Iraq, were economic interests and energy is

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involved. This is not Mali, this is not Kosovo where ethnic tensions

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play a role. This is about Ukraine's choice for democracy and

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freedom. And, Russia's attempt to punish Ukraine for this choice. You

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used a classic diplomatic work, you said you were disappointed with what

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you have recently heard from EU leaders. I wonder, let's forget the

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diplomatic language and be honest with each other, how far would you

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go, for example, Senator John McCain in the US are the Western response,

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the inability of the West to stand up to Vladimir Putin has been, to

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use his work, laughable. What word would you use?

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One word was disappointing. That is the `` diplomat speak. I want you to

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be honest. Beyond disappointed, how on negativity you feel about the

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leadership that has come from the EU and Washington since this crisis got

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so much worse, just a couple of weeks ago? One word would be weak.

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The West looks really weak, especially in the face of a nation

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that is power drunk, and nuclear nation. The West looks week and

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decadent. `` weak. I am running out of words, sorry. For a diplomat to

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say that is interesting in itself. What is also interesting, at the

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same time as your condemnation of what you see from the Western

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powers, your Prime Minister makes something of a U`turn and suddenly

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declares that Ukraine is now very eager to be a full member of Nato.

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It seems odd that on the one hand you condemn what you hear it out of

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Nato member state and of the other hand you are trying to convince Nato

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to let you join as a full member. Absolutely. There is no

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contradiction whatsoever. Just look at the situation. It's very simple.

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There are two groups in the country. One that can get attacked by Russia

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and one that can't. The first one is a Nato member. The second is non`

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Nato members. If you want to be the first group the logic is simple. But

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it wasn't simple a few months ago, when I sat down with your Prime

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Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk in Kiev. He assured me that, despite the

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crisis, it was not on Ukraine's agenda to become a member or to seek

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meant the ship of Nato. What on earth has changed? Are you now are

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deliberately trying to antagonise Moscow in a deeper way? If you ask

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me five months ago whether I would say yes to Nato expansion and to

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Ukraine becoming a Nato member, I would say no. We had too much to

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lose with Russia. The perspective of Nato membership was too flimsy, is

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that the word? That's a word. It is a word that applies. Because it is

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flimsy. It seems Nato members have absolutely no intention of

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contemplating Ukraine's full membership of their organisation.

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But now we have nothing to lose, basically, with Russia. Because

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Putin has burnt all the bridges. He talks about Ukraine basically openly

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as a failed state. He talks about Ukraine like Hitler spoke about

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Poland in 1939. What should we are reaction? Appeasement? We don't

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believe in that any more. But unless Nato member states want to

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contemplate a full`fledged war between Nato and Moscow, they are

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going to think very hard before taking seriously any application you

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make for membership. Well, it's the decision you have to make. Our

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decision is our decision and we have been as blunt, maybe not as much as

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Putin, as blunt as he is with Ukraine, but we have spoken with

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open language. We have had enough of this situation, where we are

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basically I'm armed, undefended, unprotected. In 1994, we gave up the

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third nuclear arsenal in the world. We were a superpower. We gave it up

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for one reason, it was Russia, Great Britain, the US, France and China

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gave asked the assurances that they would project I'll integrity, our

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borders, our security. `` gave us. We now have nothing. We received a

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total betrayal in return for the third biggest nuclear arsenal in the

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world. That's our situation. Don't be surprised if we are bit angry. I

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appreciate you are a bit angry and I can sense that. But surely you have

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to be a realist. Russia is always going to be a massive power on your

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eastern border. Russia isn't going anywhere and, in the end, rather

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than making the symbolic gestures, saying you want to be a part of

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Nato, which is a breadline for Moscow and it would never allow it

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to happen, wouldn't it be wiser and more sensible for you and your

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colleagues to get serious about a real dialogue? `` a bread line. Real

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diplomacy? That's very difficult. It's very difficult to conduct

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negotiations with the nation that calls Ukraine the formerly known

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Ukraine, to a nation that spokes openly about Ukraine's

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dismemberment. It would be wiser, instead of convincing Ukraine that

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it should give up and be more fearful in the face of Russia, the

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West should speak to Russia and speak to Putin and say, if you don't

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want Ukraine to become a Nato member, if you don't want Ukraine to

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be really difficult partner for you in the decades to come, then change

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your attitude. But if we just get serious about what you might be

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talking about at the moment, and of course you and your colleagues have

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had meetings with the Russians recently and I believe there will be

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more meetings to come, the question is what you are prepared to talk

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about. The Russian UN envoy says, where is the inclusive, national

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dialogue that was promised by Kiev? The constitutional reforms? The

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decentralisation of authority? Special status for the Russian

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language? The Russians don't believe you are serious about giving

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recognition to these special `` to the special status of those people

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in eastern Ukraine who are currently fighting for separation. About the

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meeting in Minsk, you know the facts. The president of Russia

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smiled at our president, shook hands, spoke about his and stood

:20:32.:20:41.

up. `` about peace. The chair he was sitting on was still warm when he

:20:42.:20:44.

ordered the tanks to roll in. Bear with us if we are bit sceptical

:20:45.:20:48.

about whatever signals come from Russia. About the signals coming

:20:49.:20:55.

from Russia, including this constant complaining by the UN envoy, until

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recently the Prime Minister of the so`called Donetsk People's

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Republic, that was a Russian citizen. He came on the orders of

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the Russian government to start this turmoil. You know who the Defence

:21:13.:21:22.

Minister was? He refers to himself as a Russian citizen, a big friend

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of the man who also can disturb the turmoil. So, basically, who are we

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supposed to talk to? Never mind that. It is an unbelievable tragedy

:21:42.:21:49.

that has been brought onto us. We are almost out of time. We are where

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we are. Some believe the only possible outcome in this situation

:21:55.:21:58.

is for Ukraine to accept a formula perhaps like in Bosnia, where the

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Republic has a huge amount of autonomy within a sovereign Bosnia.

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Would you be prepared to accept that sort of solution in eastern Ukraine.

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`` eastern Ukraine? I will tell you what we are not prepared to accept,

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dismemberment of Ukraine. We are prepared to speak to Russians,

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Russian citizens, or to the people who have Ukrainian blood on their

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hands. Other than that, I'm not entitled to discuss any options but

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I wouldn't be surprised if people in Kiev were very wary to any

:22:39.:22:43.

reasonable suggestions coming right now. When Vladimir Putin says

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statehood for eastern Ukraine has to be one option on the negotiating

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table, what do you say to that? Well, he rephrased his words

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afterwards and said the forms of statehood, the issues related to

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statehood. It wasn't as director. I don't want to justify Putin but in

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that particular case maybe he just blurted out something that was on

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his mind but not the official line of the nation. Finally, you are a

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diplomat, not an economist, but you know better than me that the IMF

:23:25.:23:29.

says your economy will contract by at least 6.5% this year. Your

:23:30.:23:34.

currency is down 6% against the dollar and your own Prime Minister

:23:35.:23:37.

says you are losing economic potential by the day. Ukraine cannot

:23:38.:23:42.

afford for this crisis to continue the way it has been going. Ukraine

:23:43.:23:50.

couldn't afford this war in the first place, in March or April, and

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it can't afford it in September. We are in a position where we have no

:23:56.:24:00.

other option. But I just want to appeal to Europe. I know your

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audience is enormous. Europe cannot afford to let Russia dismember

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Ukraine. This would be a huge blow to Europe. Ukraine is fighting

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Europe's war, not only the Ukrainian law. This war is about democracy and

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freedom. `` war. Thank you for joining me from Kiev.

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Thank you. The top temperature on Tuesday was

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recorded

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