Petro Poroshenko - President of Ukraine HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I Stephen Sackur. Today, I have an exclusive

interview with the President of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko. He is

here in Britain to attend a summit of Nato leaders. The consensus view

here is that the crisis in Ukraine represents the most serious threat

to European stability since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Ukraine and

short steps away from all`out war. short steps away from all`out war.

But there is now a ceasefire plan, and the hope is it can work. So, is

there a path back from the brink? President Petro Poroshenko, welcome

to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. How confident are you that a lasting

ceasefire in eastern Ukraine is now within reach? That is one of the

most difficult questions, I am absolutely not confident. I am

confident that Ukraine, as a state, and as a Ukrainian leader, are doing

everything possible to have peace in my country. I do my best to stop the

war, to stop the massacre against Ukrainian civilians, and Ukrainian

forces. It seems to me that you were in Iraq, and you know what massacre

means, what more meat `` what more `` what war means. It is more than a

question of economical difficulties, social difficulties,

danger and risk. This is... A possible humanitarian catastrophe if

the war will continue, if more and more Russian groups are in my

territory, if people from Donetsk and Luhansk can be suffering from

these attacks. At this point, I think the initiative of Ukraine,

supported by the whole world, supported by the people of Don Bass,

because 100% of people there want peace. Are you suggesting that you

have reached a point, and we have seen that your military have

suffered real reverses and losses in recent days, are you suggesting...?

Not only us but Russia as well. I want to know whether you have

reached a point where you want to stop the fighting, stop the gunfire,

whatever the price? Immediately after the presidential elections, I

put forward the initiative that I am ready for the immediate ceasefire.

Even for stopping any negotiations... Blah blah. We are

ready for the unilateral ceasefire, showing that we are ready to support

things. That started on the 20th of June, less than three months after

the inauguration ceremony, and this week, we had a ceasefire, and

Ukraine lost 25 soldiers. Nobody from the terrorist side supports the

ceasefire. If I may say so, it raises the question, right now, are

you prepared to place any trust in the Russian president, Vladimir

Putin? It's not a question of trusting the Russian president, in

the current situation, we are much more prepared for the ceasefire.

Point number one, we have to do our best to involve them in this

process, the monitoring commission, and the whole world should know from

this situation, who takes the responsibility for the violation of

the ceasefire. Point number two, in the present situation, with the war

, Russia has supplied weapons, finance, and everything else. Now we

have a different situation. Ukraine has Russian troops. How many Russian

troops are you claiming are in your territory right now? We have, from

different days, from 4000 to 8000 soldiers. More than 350 tanks and

armoured personal vehicles. Very modern artillery. Rocket artillery.

A missile system. Modern, state`of`the`art reconnaissance and

intelligence weapons. With all of these factors, this is a direct

aggression. The situation has completely changed. If you say that

is the context, I wonder how you can talk to Vladimir Putin, and place an

element of trust in his good faith if you are talking about a plan and

a lasting ceasefire? When your own Prime Minister only yesterday said

that he believed Russia was involved in" a deception intended to pull the

wool over the eyes of the international community". Anyone,

including the Prime Minister, can do the statement. I think there is

significant parts of the truce and the reality in this kind of

statement `` truth. For me, as president of the country, I have a

full responsibility for the sovereignty of the territorial

integrity and the security my country. In any circumstances, we

should have a dialogue. I can be very frank with you. What we need

now for the peace and stability of Ukraine... Everyone said about the

15 points of peace plan `` the peace plan of Petro Poroshenko. That is

true. It gives the power to the local authority. Defending their

cultural right and amnesty law and other things which are absolutely

necessary, and can be introduced and implemented. But, there are two main

conditions now under the current circumstances. Firstly, Russia

should withdraw the troops, and second, close the border. If it

happens, within two weeks, it would mean peace and stability in Ukraine.

For a long period of time. You talk about Russia pulling back its

forces, but you prepared to say to me that you are willing to pull back

your forces away from Luhansk, away from Donetsk, and leave those cities

in the hands of separatists who you label "terrorists" . We are not

talking about the withdrawal of our troops because it is our

territorial. With respect, that is in the Putin 7`point plan, that you

pull your forces back so they can no longer shall Donetsk, Luhansk, and

other cities in separatist hands? I consider Putin' proposal as the sign

the shared responsibility for the ceasefire. `` Putin's. The appeal

and request for the illegal armed group to sign up to take part in the

ceasefire, and the detailed peace plan, should probably be signed

today. That is the basis for the political dialogue under the

ceasefire. You cannot find amnesty there. There is no danger for this

territorial integrity or sovereignty of my country. There is no one word

that would put it in doubt. Isn't the brutal truth that you will have

to accept his ceasefire agreement which leaves the separatists in

control of large chunks of your territory, because you were losing

the war on the ground? When Vladimir Putin said, apparently, to Mr

Barroso of the European Commission a couple of days ago, I can take here

than two weeks if I wanted to... `` Kiev. He was indicating that Russia

has the cards in its hands, and you do not. Russia has 1,200,000 army

troops. One of the most modern armies and weapons in the world.

With this logic, the same way as Russia can take Kiev, Russia can

take Tallin, Bucharest, Warsaw. Any other cities. If we are not united,

and of the whole world does not is `` demonstrate solidarity with

Ukraine. If we allow this way of treating the current situation, and

the present situation, as I said... We will lose cities like Kiev. As

for the situation on the ground, when I become a president, less than

three months ago, the terrorists and separatists control, the full

territory of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and now they are shrinking

the territory by two thirds, there is only one third left in control.

This is the direct successive Ukrainian Armed Forces. That

raises... Beforehand, it was us demonstrating effective action

against the terrorists. Now, there is no war with the terrorists but

the Russian army. I now want to focus particularly on what has

happened at the Nato Summit, what you heard from Western leaders, and

about how you feel about the international response to the crisis

in Ukraine. One of your most senior Foreign Ministry official summed it

up for me a couple of days ago in an interview. He said one word that he

would use was "weak" . A weak response from Ukraine' friends. ``

Ukraine's. I doubt anyone would have told you that after the summit. It

was just before. The final statement was made before, that was weak.

Because there was that negotiation with the leaders of the member

states, the final resolution was much stronger. Never ever before...

I have had a long diplomatic history and experience of diplomacy. I have

never seen that any country would have such a level of support as

yesterday Ukraine had on the commission, Ukraine and Nato. That

is not just their verbal support. It was a practical step with the

financing of the full trust fund, for the logistics, keeping the

defence for the social guarantee of the soldiers after the war. Keeping

every single country of Nato, they financed that. It is important that

for the first time since the conflict started, no bilateral

level, we have a strong statement about military corporation `` on a

bilateral level. Including in the supply of military equipment.

Let me put you on that. You were saying members of Nato were offering

to provide you decision guided weapons, essentially. Yes. Which

nations? This is confidential information. Only if you would be

able to provide you. The most sophisticated militaries in Nato. We

are talking the United dates, the United Kingdom. Just a few of us.

This is the first time they have offered sophisticated weapons. You

should understand, this is not just for the victory in this war. This is

just for helping us to create European security. This is not a

Walkley Ukraine. `` war for Ukraine. Nato soldiers on Ukrainian soil

would be defending the freedom and democracy. The military, financial,

technical support is vital for us. But there are clearly divisions

within Nato and the European Union about how are the go in support of

Ukraine. Angela Merkel has made it plain that she does not believe

giving weapons to Ukraine would be helpful. There is not unity in Nato.

There is no discussion as to the relationship with Ukraine. There is

a different approach from different countries. Germany, it is true.

Germany want to supply us with armour, helmets, medicine. Other

countries supply as the armed vehicles and different types of

weapons. I hate the idea that we have created an impression that we

are preparing and hoping to win the war with Russia immediately now in

this conflict. I support the message that this war is impossible to win

with military means. Let us talk about sanctions. It is clear that

the Europeans are ready to impose new sanctions, talking about

specified targeted sanctions on companies involved in energy,

defence, finance as well. And individuals. But they are not, it

seems, going to take some sweeping measures. For example, blocking

Russian access to electronic transfer payment systems, that is

not on the table. Do you think the sanctions that we have seen from the

EU and the United States have been enough? Points number one, first of

all, we are for introducing the sanction. When you say they are

ready, they have promised to they would not. The sanction is on the

table. We are in support of this idea. So just to be clear, they did

it against Iran in 2012. They have not promised you they will deliver.

They have not promised me anything. That they will deliver a particular

sanction. There are people in your country, indeed in your government,

who will privately say we are disappointed that these sanctions

have not been more sweeping and more damaging to Russia. These people in

my government are not responsible. I can assure you that they are not

responsible for the security. We do not have so much time left. I have

got two questions for you. First of all, you want to be members of Nato,

do you? It seems to be a change. He said it was not on the agenda. A

prime minister says Ukraine wants to be in Nato. Our government has

implemented the draft law based on the decision of the defence

Council. We want... You described a non` Bloc status. Then he said,

forget about that, we would like to be in Nato. Would you, yes or no? We

would like to have better security. This is not just because... With

respect, the Russians want an answer to this. They say, Ukrainian Nato is

an absolute red light. We seek membership, yes. We seek now

membership. And we seek now a new form of security. Our previous

security guarantee was not enough. You should understand that the

membership in Nato, 80% of the criteria, not in the military and

security sphere, but for the economy, the rule of law,

anticorruption reform, a long list of things. I promise you that we

will have a referendum on Nato. If the Ukrainian people want to be in

Nato, we will be. If not, we will find other security. That depends on

what the Nato members want as well. Given the situation of the country,

that cannot be certain. We had the summit, they said they were ready.

Nato will keep it open. I am sure that we will have peace in my

country. Let me switch to a different matter. Human rights

groups have condemned the involvement of right`wing militia

fighters in the fighting in eastern Ukraine. One brigade use a neo`Nazi

insignia. Fighters have been on YouTube videos. Some of them

acknowledging they are neofascist. Why do you allow these people to be

part of the armed forces? They are not part of our Armed Forces. They

are fighting in the frontline. They defend the rules and they are not

Nazis. That is Russian propaganda. We are reforming the armed forces.

There will not be any type of battalion. They will be united.

Would you acknowledge there has been a mistake made allowing some of

these people from the right sector and other organisations to take on

uniforms to take up weapons and to fight alongside your own armed

forces? They do not exist. They do not exist, it is not true. This is

part of our national guard. There have patrol operations. Their action

was very effective. They were supported by the people. I have seen

it. The rumours about nationalists doing something wrong, this is not

true. If it would be any evidence of the violations of law by any

soldiers or any members of this battalion, immediately it would be

in the court. Immediately it would be punished and prosecuted. A final

thought. I refer to the balance of power between you and Moscow's. It

seems to me Mr Putin still holds many cards. Your fundamental issue

is not just military, Russian superiority on the battlefield, it

is also economic. Your country is close to bankrupt. This is the price

Ukraine paid for the war, the economic price. You are close to

bankrupt. Unless Russia keeps the gas taps open, you will have the

most profound energy crisis. We can survive without Russian gas.

Unfortunately, the industrial hub of Donetsk has been completely

destroyed. That is tragic. That is another explanation for why we need

peace. I can assure you that when we have peace, the economic potential

of Ukraine will be much bigger. We do not have a problem with

negotiating on gas if we have peace. If we have peace we will not have a

problem with energy, or safety. And we will find out the way how we can

establish a good economic relationship with the whole world.

What I can promise you, we will have one of the best investment

climates. We will have the rule of law. We will have a strong fight

against corruption. We can create an atmosphere that investors would be

happy to come to Ukraine. We do not know what the next few hours and

days will bring. Do you believe this is the beginning of the end of the

fighting in western Ukraine? I promise you I will do my best. ``

eastern Ukraine. We are ready to fight, to die for my country. That

is the position of a huge amount of people, the vast majority. We will

do our best to keep peace in our country, stability for the whole

world. Together with the European Union and the UK. I want to thank

the UK for the strong support of my country. I promise we will do my

best. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.

Looks as though the weekend is offering the prospect of quite a bit

of dry weather across the British Isles. The northern part of Scotland

will see some pretty heavy showers and longer spells of rain in just a