Jose Manuel Barroso - President of the European Commission HARDtalk


Jose Manuel Barroso - President of the European Commission

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That is it. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Here by the shores of Lake Como in Italy. Where

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top politicians, officials and business leaders have been gathering

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for their annual forum. There are grave dangers to your's security.

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From the jihadist threat at home and abroad to the instability in

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Ukraine. My guess today is the outgoing commission president, Jose

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Manuel Barroso. Does Europe black a unified and automated response to

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these dangers and is Jose Manuel Barroso leaving a mess behind for

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his successors? `` Jose Manuel Barroso, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you very much. I put it to you that the response by

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European Union to Russia has been pretty half`hearted. I do not think

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so. I think it is what we should do at this moment. On one side we have

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to show that we do not agree with Russia and we have made it very

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clear, not only with sanctions, but we want to use the sanctions not as

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an end but as a way to bring the Russians to the table and to bring

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the dialogue forward. We believe a solution should be found on the

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sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine. Here is the European Union

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now discussing and wanting to impose a third round of tougher sanctions.

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But we have also had key European Union leaders like Angela Merkel

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saying this. It is possible that the sanctions could indeed be

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implemented, but with the limitation that they could be suspended if the

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ceasefire process is actually happening. That is exactly what we

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mean. The sanctions are happening in a way that they can be scaled back.

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We do not want to keep the sanctions for the sake of sanctions. We want

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comprehensive settlements of the issue. It is very good news

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regarding the ceasefire. Let us now make everything to make it work so

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that we can implement it. That we still need a comprehensive solution,

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they political solution. We have been working hard trying to address

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concerns in terms of trade and energy. Our idea is to use the

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sanctions as a way to come to a political solution for the conflict.

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Can you just clarify for us when you say the sanctions are meant to

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extract certain behaviours from President Putin. Just that include

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giving up Crimea or does it just me and eastern Ukraine? Today we are

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discussing eastern Ukraine. That is the object of the ceasefire.

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Regarding Crimea, we have already stated that we will not accept the

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illegal annexation of Crimea. But these sanctions and whether they are

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elected or not has got nothing to do with what President Putin does with

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Crimea? That is in regards to the governments of Europe, not me. They

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asked me to prepare the sanctions and the European commission made

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these proposals. It is a decision taken by the governments of Europe,

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not the European commission. When and how they want to suspend the

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sanctions. The former Assistant Secretary of State in the US says

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understanding the Russians and knowing what Putin is like, the

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chances are he will never leave Crimea. As far as the EU leaders are

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concerned, Putin has gotten away with annex in Crimea. We have a very

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principled position of the European countries. We did not accept the

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annexation. We do not recognise Crimea as part of Russia. We have

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never recognised Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia as part of the Soviet

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Union. And now they are independent countries. The fact is this. An

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American Nato commander`in`chief has said as long as Russia does not go

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for a full`blown invasion of eastern Ukraine, they can get away with it.

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I do not believe annex in Crimea is business as usual. Can Crimea

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conduct business as usual with Crimea in the hands of Moscow? We

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are not business as usual. But you are talking about lifting the

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sanctions to do with Crimea. Everything except business as usual

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with regards to Russia. We have excluded them from the G8. We have

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suspended many parts of our relationship. So these sanctions,

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there are those who say that they are working and they have caused

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problems for Russia. But even if they are hoping, they are not

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working, because the European Union is going to be limited in how far it

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can extend these sanctions and gas supplies to the tune of 30% of the

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EU's needs from Russia. Some countries, like Bulgaria, 100%. You

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cannot afford to really squeeze them hard. As I have said, sanctions are

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not an end in themselves. It is a way to have serious negotiations

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between Russia and Ukraine. So far we have not taken sanctions

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specifically on the field of energy. We have not suggested them. Some of

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the measures will have an impact on energy. It may affect drilling

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capacities, technological capacities. Allowing them to exploit

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natural resources. We are working on that field. Have you mended fences,

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diplomatic fences with Russia? There has been a highly publicised,

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reportedly kept out a conversation you had on the telephone with

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President Putin when you briefed European union leaders in Brussels.

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Can you set the record straight? What I have done and should have

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done is to inform my colleagues of the contacts I have as commission

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president. I have been keeping frequent contact with President

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Putin. Also with President Poroshenko of Ukraine. Afterwards

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there was a leak that was distorting what I said and out of context. The

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Russian authorities consider the case post closed. You have met

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President Putin around 20 times. Is he a man that the European Union can

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do business with? We have to do business with them. What is

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important for us are the facts. The facts are not good. Russia is not

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respecting international law. They are interventions of Russian troops

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in Ukraine territory, a sovereign country. President Putin is the

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president of Russia at the same time. We have to deal with him. I

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still hope there is a margin for a political negotiated solution. I

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have been very clear in expressing to him to the high costs for Russia

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in terms of the relationship with Ukraine if there is not a change.

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What is the call? One has said that Putin wants a friendly government in

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eastern Ukraine. He does not want it to be incorporated into Russia. I do

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not want to make speculation as to the endgame of President Putin. Our

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endgame is respect of the sovereignty of Ukraine. Ukraine is a

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country in the United Nations. They can make agreements with whoever

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they want and they have a right to live in peace. Everything we want

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from Russia is for them to expect the sovereignty of Ukraine. I will

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not engage in speculation of scenarios or comments. We are

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working very hard with our government in Europe to try and

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achieve that political agreement. I believe it would be a mistake for

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Ukraine if we do not have it. They will be consequences. Nobody is

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interested in a new Cold War. It is in the interests of nobody. I hope

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the Russian leadership has understood that. You have been

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discussing Ukraine and all the other threats to security at the moment.

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If you look at what is happening in the Middle East, Ethiopia, Iraq,

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Syria, the rise of Islamic State, what is the greatest threat to

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Europe? It is thought around 2000 of these jihadist fighters are

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European. Another reason for solving the conflict with Russia. I have

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said this to President Putin. He has united all of us against this threat

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of extremism and fundamentalism coming from some parts of the

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Islamic world. What did he say to you? I will not go into detail about

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what he said. My position was we should work together with all the

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countries of the world against this very serious threat. That is, a

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terrorist state or terrorists who want to establish themselves as a

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state. It is a threat of a new nature. It is very serious and poses

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a problem to the security of Europe. Do you think European

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governments have a clear strategy to stop these jihadist fighters coming

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back into Europe? They had a brief stopover in Turkey and the next

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thing you know, they are in Europe. It is a relatively new problem.

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These jihadist fighters that have European citizenship. We have

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proposed a kind of network of tracking the activity of this kind

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of people. What I can tell you, I just came from a summit of Nato

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where the European union was invited. I saw this at the top of

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the agenda of concerns, not only of our American friends, but the

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European leaders. This is the top priority for Europe. When you look

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at what is going on in the room some, the president of the European

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Central bank very clearly saying the growth we had seen in the Eurozone

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is losing momentum. Even the great German economy is missing its growth

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targets in the last couple of months. How worried are you? I think

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we are going to overcome this situation. I remember where we were

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sometime ago. Everybody was predicting the quick exit. They were

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predicting the collapse of the row, the disintegration. We have shown

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how resilient we are. I do not think we are going to fall into recession.

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I welcome the measures announced by the European Central bank. There is

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still some monetary policy to support growth in Europe. Plans for

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some kind of stimulus programme, for reducing interest rates even more.

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Also the ABS, the programme they have announced. All of these are

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measures in the right direction. But there is a big debate and has been

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revived again about these weak economic indicators in the Eurozone

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saying that Germany emphasises austerity too much. President

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Francois Hollande sang with have to convince our European partners to

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make growth a priority. 26 million people out of work across the EU. Do

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you think that if there are further stimulus measures taken in the

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Eurozone that is going to set some countries on a collision course with

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Germany? With Germany's growth, all of the

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others are as well. The question is, the situation is different

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across Europe. I think Germany have more, in terms of investment, and it

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is a way of supporting grows in Europe. In terms of opening the

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market that remains relatively close `` gross. They have a more expansive

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monetary policy. They have already changed regularly. You mention the

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need for countries like Greece, for example, to focus on the kind of

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policies that the European Union says they have two sticks too. We

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have seen a big backlash. `` to stick to. I pity you bought your

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former economic adviser has said. Knows firsthand having worked with

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you that EU institutions are not democratic enough. The mainstream

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politicians slash spending on poor schoolchildren. `` he knows

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firsthand. The European Union is a group of countries, 28 of them, and

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you cannot expect everybody to think the same along the same lines

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regarding the response to the crisis. I believe the response that

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we have been doing was, generally speaking, the right one. It is very

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easy now to have criticisms, that the people forget where you were.

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For example, Greece, without the support of the European Union it

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would be in a more difficult situation. That is the interesting

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thing to note, that different oddments of Greece, and political

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forces, they want to remain in Europe. They've done a lot for that

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purpose. It was important that they did not create a situation. The

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situation of Greece was created by irresponsible behaviour of the

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governments of Greece. Do you not accept that there is a question of

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democratic accountability? We saw in the May elections of the European

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Parliament, there was the rise, in some countries, of the anti` EU

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vote. With UKIP, in Great Britain. The French said this was a wake`up

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call for all of Europe. Of course. We should look at what is not going

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well. In the European Union and member states. I think many of the

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causes of this behaviour have to do with national politics. There is

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disappointment, in many of our countries, it towards the

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governments and how they have handled the situation. It is a

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complete mistake to put the blame on the European Union. I know that is

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easy. People say it is our problem when things go wrong, it is the

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fault of Brussels. There is the design now of the ever closer union,

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going now towards the European Union dream. That is not necessarily

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something voters back. We saw referendums on the proposed EU

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Constitution at the time being rejected in several countries. Apart

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from what their own national governments are doing, there is a

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disaffection that people like Philip LaGrande talk about. And the impact

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on their lives. There is a problem, and we are working on it. The

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solution is not to disintegrate Europe. That will be a real

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mistake. On the contrary. What we need, is a more coherent European

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Union, more integrated. If there are more mechanisms of legitimacy and

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accountability, I'm for democracy. I've been elected all my life, since

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I was 29. I'm for democracy. I'm not a bureaucrat. The question is, and

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that I don't like, is national politicians putting the blame on

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Europe of their own... Of things of their own responsibility. If David

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Cameron was doing that, when he says I am proposing a referendum as to

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whether Britain stays in the EU or not... ? This is a decision for the

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British people to take. I respect democracy. Do you agree with the

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Polish prime minister, due to take over as the president of the

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European Council, he says no reasonable person can imagine an EU

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without the UK? I agree. We appreciate the support a lot from

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the UK, and Europe. It is good Europe. The current development, in

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terms of security, should lead for all of us to be more united. We are

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strongly united. Our countries, including Britain, are stronger

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united. Of course, that's up to the British people to decide. If they

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want to, or not, to be European Union. You have been the commission

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president of the ten years. You came in when there was a huge wave of

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enlargement, expanded from 15 members to 28. Use countries in the

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former Soviet bloc, Nym. Now, at the end of your tenure. There is a bit

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of a mess when you look around. The Eurozone crisis was behind us. It

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has been described as weak and faltering. We see the borders of

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Europe, admittedly not in the EU, changing for the first time since

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the Second World War. It looks pretty untidy, doesn't it? It is

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challenging, but I am excited. We have lived through crisis all the

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time. Don't forget, the first crisis was the non` ratification of the

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constitutional treaty. We solved with the Lisbon Treaty. All of the

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country supported it. But now Britain wants see it, perhaps,

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looked at and reformed. But anyway. It has probably had its time.

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Secondly, you mentioned, rightly, that during this time, we have

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almost doubled our membership from 15 to 28 member states. Is that not

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the greatest success over? In European history, for the first

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time, we have almost the entire continent united around the values

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of peace and democracy. Is that the case, when you have the Hungarian

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prime minister saying he had admiration for the liberal countries

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like Russia? There are some issues, regarding the rule in Hungary. And

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we will address them. But look, the Prime Minister was democratically

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elected in Hungary. And we will respect the principles of democracy.

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Nothing to do with Hungary, when it was a totalitarian region. The

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conclusion is drawn. That is why I disagree with the idea that is now

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very fashionable, that Europeans are worse now than they were before.

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It's untrue. Europe is stronger today, stronger than the Americans,

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Chinese, and the Russians, they look at us because we are becoming a

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continental power. That is more important. Regarding the financial

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crisis. I remember when everyone, including many people that we

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interviewed, were predicting the end of the euro. I'm predicting the

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collapse of the European Union. Here we are. Still, a lot has to be

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done. But we have shown resilience. There are integration forces in

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Europe that are stronger than the forces of fragmentation. Do you

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believe you've done a good job? I've done my best. I'm not saying

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everything was perfect. All Bruce Volpi `` all reasonable people would

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recognise the circumstances keeping 28 country is united, and keeping

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Europe open and united, regarding trade, that is a good job. That is

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your political epitaph, at the European commission? Europe is today

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united and open. It was a huge task to keep it during this crisis and I

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believe because of that Europe is stronger now. Our countries have

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been reforming in the sense of becoming more competitive. I'm not

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saying everything is perfect. But look, compared to other areas of the

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world, frankly, Europe is one of the most, let's say, distant parts of

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the world. In terms of quality of life. Not many have the problems we

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have. You are still a young man, not yet

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60! There are presidential elections in your native Portugal in 2016.

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Would you run them? No. Almost now, for 30 years, I haven't had... I've

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only had a small interruption. I know in politics. I started out as

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junior minister when I was 29. I have been Foreign Minister and Prime

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Minister, and now in the European Commission, I at least deserve a

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pause from politics! Comeback to Lake Como and relax a bit! I will be

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a free ban from the 1st of November and I am happy with that. Jose

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Manuel Barroso, thank you very much indeed becoming a HARDtalk. `` a

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freeman. Thank you. Good morning, if you need a lengthy

:24:14.:24:45.

spell of dry weather to get outdoor jobs done, this is the weekly you. I

:24:46.:24:49.

pressure is in charge, moving and across the UK through tonight, and

:24:50.:24:54.

you will notice we are in the middle of the high pressure `` high

:24:55.:24:58.

pressure. Some light winds here. The temperature drops like stone. Some

:24:59.:25:02.

double figures in towns and city centres, but in rural areas

:25:03.:25:03.

temperatures

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