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for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Top | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
politicians, officials and business leaders have been brainstorming at | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
the annual forum. Top of the discussions are threats to global | :00:22. | :00:29. | |
security. And my guess is that they is the veteran US Senator Republican | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
John McCain. Why does he accused the Obama Administration of dithering in | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
its response to the threat of both Islamic State in the Middle East as | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
well as Russia over its actions in Ukraine? Is he investing too much | :00:46. | :01:10. | |
faith in military solutions to such dangerous? John McCain, welcome to | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you. Why do you believe the Obama Administration has | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
been dithering over what to do over the threat of the Islamic State | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
jihadist fighters, known as ISIS. They have not done anything. It was | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
clear for a long time that this organisation was becoming more and | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
more powerful. The president called that junior varsity. Clearly a total | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
misreading of the threat they posed. And of course they now control the | :01:43. | :01:52. | |
largest, most powerful, wealthiest terrorist on Cleeve in history. But | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
do you believe that the Obama Administration is now actually very | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
alive to the threat of the ISIS? They are more alive, but as far as | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
the articulation and the strategy, or even a call has been missing. The | :02:10. | :02:21. | |
president has set our goal is to protect people and protect American | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
troops. That is not a strategy designed to defeat ISIS? John Kerry | :02:25. | :02:35. | |
has just said in the past few days that leaving ISIS in some capacity | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
anywhere would lead a cancer in place that would ultimately come | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
back to haunt the United States. That does not sound like an | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
administration that is complacent. They still have refused to provide | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
the necessary equipment to the Kurds. Who are the ones who can | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
fight ISIS in that respect. They still have not provided assistance | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
to the Iraqis. They still have shamefully refused to give the Free | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
Syrian Army what they need to fight successfully, who are being | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
destroyed as we speak. There are 192,000 people who have been killed | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
in Syria. I hope so. They have said these things before. Let me tell you | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
one story. The President called and Lindsay into his office and said I | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
am going to upgrade Bashar al`Assad and the Free Syrian Army and we are | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
going to win. Because of the chemical weapons. Four days later, | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
he said, I am not into bomb Syria. You were talking about the terrible | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
attack in August last year. A lot of people at the time, including the | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
United Kingdom, who has always been a supporter of the US military, | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
there was a vote in the House of Commons is saying we do not want a | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
military intervention. All along we predicted exactly what was going to | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
happen, beginning with leaving a residual force in Iraq. The | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
President did not want to. When he says he wanted to, he is not telling | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
the truth. All of these things happened because of an absence of | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
American leadership. Sticking with Iraq first of all. Obama has said, | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
why is it everyone is so eager for the United States to use military | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
force after we have just been through a decade of war and at | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
enormous cost to ourselves. Are you perhaps not being a bit rash saying, | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
let us just rush in and intervene militarily? You have to understand | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
and I am afraid you do not buy the nature of the question, we had not | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
won. We completely have the country with a very new countries, with | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
control over the entire country. Then the President of the United | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
States decided we would not leave a residual force behind. You do not | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
like that. But if we had left the residual force behind, we would not | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
have had the events that followed take place. You seem to suggest, you | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
have said ISIS is a military force and must be confronted militarily. | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
How else can you confronted? What example, we know that ISIS have made | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
gains in Iraq in Sunni heartland because the Sunni population has | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
allowed them to make these games. Not because they are a military | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
force. Because the government, because we were not there to have | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
the influence we would have had. They did not like the government. | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
That is not a military issue. If you do not let me finish my sentence, | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
there is not much point in having... It is not just a military | :06:12. | :06:25. | |
failure. So am I. It has to have the military component. Else we will not | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
succeed. If we have the residual force behind, if we are into the | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
Peshmerga, none of this would have happened. But now that the Obama | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
Administration has said it has a clear strategy for Iraq, Senator | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
McCain, it says it wants to work with partners in the region, Saudi | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, so they can actually take | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
the lead, particularly militarily. To try to combat the jihadist 's. | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
They cannot take the lead militarily. On the one country in | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
the world can take the lead militarily to succeed in Iraq, and | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
that is the United States of America. I am all for coalitions. I | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
can tell you, those coalition partners do not trust us. We told | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
them we were going to strike Syria because of chemical weapons and then | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
did not do so. We have said many times that we are going to interact | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
and have not. The United States influence is dramatically reduced, | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
not only in the region but throughout the world. When you see | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
the United States is the only country capable of achieving a | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
defeat of, militarily, of ISIS, what are you advocating? The return of US | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
combat troops on the ground in Iraq? Obviously not. The American people | :07:55. | :08:04. | |
would not support such a thing. The use of air strikes is a strong and | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
steady and very concentrated extracts, we can reverse the | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
momentum. We can defeat ISIS with a reconciled Iraqi armed forces with | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
Kurds and other nations. A concentrated campaign. Not just | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
trying to stop them from taking in Mt. It has to be a concentrated | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
campaign. Plus training, plus equipment to the Peshmerga. Plus | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
reconciliation between the Sunni and Shia and other nations being | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
involved. That does not sound any different from what the Obama | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
strategy is. The deputy national security adviser has said the Obama | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
Administration wants an inclusive new government in Iraq and Haider | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
al`Abadi as the Prime Minister designate. It says it wants to | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
engage partners in the region and take the lead role in the military | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
push. What do you think has been happening for the past three years? | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
Nothing. They have wasted the right thing. We have left behind a | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
stable, secure Iraq. That is the same person that said that. You are | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
leaving behind a ticking time bomb. President Obama said in the summer | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
that he wants $500 million to be used to support moderate, clearly | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
identified elements in the Free Syrian Army and is hoping that | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
Congress will approve that in October. That sounds like he is | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
doing the right thing. Do you think so? 192,000 people have already been | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
killed while we did nothing to help these people. I have been in Syria | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
and I have met them face to face. I can tell you, they are not being | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
supplied with the weapons even now. If weapons are being supplied, the | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Saudis and the Emirates and others are giving them to them. We were not | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
giving them the eighth that they needed to have a viable effort | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
against Bashar al`Assad. You can dispute that is all you want, I have | :10:23. | :10:30. | |
been on the ground. Now he wants $500 million to do what? He said for | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
counterterrorism. To do what? Explain what he is going to do. She | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
told me and Senator Graham that he was going to upgrade the | :10:42. | :10:43. | |
capabilities of the Free Syrian Army. He never did. There is a view | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
that is being circulated that ISIS poses such a threat not only to the | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
United States, but the countries in the region, that one should work | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
with President Assad in Syria to try and eliminate them and the Syrian | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
Foreign Minister assets to the United States, if you want to do | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
that, we welcome you. That is something which people like the | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
former head of the British army says he thinks Britain should do. What do | :11:17. | :11:25. | |
you think? Fantasy, foolishness to think that we should join forces | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
with this butcher who has slaughtered 192,000 of his own | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
people. Who is a threat, I believe, in many respects, to the region. | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
That would be a betrayal of everything that we have fought for. | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
It would mean the elimination of the Free Syrian Army. The Free Syrian | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
Army can still succeed, although I can tell you, they are in dire | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
straits. Bashar al`Assad, what about Iran? | :11:57. | :12:12. | |
The supreme leader has said that he would be happy to have some kind of | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
cooperation with the US to defeat the ices fighters. And in discussing | :12:18. | :12:26. | |
that, a former naval commander, an American, said that communication | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
and cooperation should be the what would `` watchword when it comes to | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
any of the Kurdish areas. He says in this particular instance, US | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
interests converge with those of Iran. The US State Department has | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
ruled that out. What is your view? My view is that the Iranians are | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
responsible for the bombings of American ships, American embassies. | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
They have continued to supply Bashar al`Assad with arms and equipment and | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
training to slaughter the Free Syria Army. They are continuing in their | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
effort to develop nuclear weapons and they are causing problems | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
throughout the Middle East. The United States of America cannot get | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
in bed with the Iranians and should not and if they do, it would be | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
something that the American people should never stand for. Just to | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
finish on the jihadist threat in the Middle East in particular, just | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
outlined for us very briefly what you think the Obama administration | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
should be doing that it is not doing. It should have done a lot of | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
long time ago and it is disgraceful they did not. All of us predicted | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the events as they transpired. We predicted exactly what would happen. | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
You need to have reconciliation between Sunni and Shi'ite. You need | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
to arm the Peshmerga directly, not through Baghdad, which will not give | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
them any weapons. You need to have air strikes in Syria and Iraq are | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
not just Iraq. ISIS has obliterated the boundaries between Syria and | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
Iraq. And you need to really equipped and trained the Free Syria | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
Army, which we have not done so far. Looking at Russia, you have | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
also been a very strong advocate of tougher action against Russia, be it | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
from the US, the EU or Nato. Now that there is this ceasefire plan | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
and the hope is that it will hold, that probably is the best | :14:33. | :14:34. | |
face`saving way out of this conflict, isn't it? Vladimir Putin | :14:35. | :14:43. | |
's ambitions were very well`known to me and to others. He knew that once | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
Viktor Yanukovych left, he had to take Crimea because of Sevastopol. | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
Then he tried the separatists. That did not work. Then he armed the | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
separatists. That did not work. Then he sent in thousands of Russian | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
troops. The fact is that they were slaughtering Ukrainians. There were | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
hundreds killed, thousands in the hospitals. It's terrible. Petro | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
Poroshenko had no choice but to agree to a ceasefire. What will | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
happen? I predicted that it will be another step in Vladimir Putin's | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
strategy to separate eastern Ukraine from Ukraine. And perhaps a land | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
bridge to Crimea. Now, it is a very bad result and again, we would not | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
send weapons to the Ukrainians when they were begging for them. We would | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
not even give them intelligence. Because we did not want to | :15:39. | :15:46. | |
"provoke" Vladimir Putin. By showing weakness, we provoked Vladimir | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
Putin. Who do you mean by that? The US? The US, yes. I also met the | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
Europeans but I was not surprised that the Europeans. The Ukrainians | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
begged the US for defensive weapons and we would not even do that full | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
of it was almost comical. They sent MREs. Why we're not surprised at the | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
not taking action? Because they are dependent on Russian energy. It is | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
obvious. And as for the US, it was obvious that we were not going to | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
assist them because we did not want to" provoke" Vladimir Putin. And | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
there is nothing that provokes a Vladimir Putin more than weakness. | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
You have to understand that his ambitions are the restoration of the | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
old Russian Empire. He has never said, as he, that he was eastern | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
Ukraine to be incorporated into Russian territory? What he said just | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
a few days ago was that he could take Kiev in two weeks. What he has | :16:52. | :17:03. | |
said is that he wants ISIL, which is an old phrase. That means `` he | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
wants Novorussia. That means he wants eastern Ukraine, Crimea, all | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
Dover and the Baltic. That is what he wants to see restored. He cannot | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
afford to see a free and democratic and prosperous Ukraine because the | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
Russian people would like to be like Ukraine. There is now this new Nato | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
force, which has been discussed and could be in place by Christmas, | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
where we have permanently rotating troops that can be deployed within a | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
couple of days notice. Will that be enough of a deterrent? It depends on | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
where it is, what the parameters of the rules of engagement are. A lot | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
of things. I think it is good. We should do a lot of other things | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
within restoring missile defence and rotating those people in and out of | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
the Baltics, including stationing warships in the region. There are a | :18:00. | :18:10. | |
whole lot of things we can do. You have to wrap this interview said | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
that the US could be doing so much more militarily. `` throughout this | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
interview. Stronger response in Russia, stronger response in the | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
Middle East. But opinion polls show that the public and politicians in | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
the US are very war weary and that people begin to say that foreign | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
policy begins at home. Do you perhaps not take sufficient note of | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
that? Interestingly, the American people are taking sufficient notice | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
in the last few weeks, especially with these executions, and we have | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
seen American public opinion shift dramatically. They don't want to | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
send American troops and neither do I but they want us to lead and they | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
want us to confront ISIS and they want us to lead in the world and not | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
fall behind as they watch the world deteriorated around them. There has | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
been a dramatic shift in the polls, some 25 points, that they want | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
Americans to lead. They don't believe that President Obama is | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
leading. His approval rating on foreign policy is 36%, the lowest I | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
have ever seen of any president. There is a very live debate in the | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
US about how that leadership, militarily, should manifest itself. | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
And you have said yourself that there is no appetite for ground | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
troops Aviemore. No one that I know of is advocating ground troops. | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
There is a requirement for air controllers. We have 1000 people | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
over there in Iraq. Air controllers, logistics, | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
intelligence. There is certainly the need for those kinds of | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
capabilities. Nobody is arguing for ground troops like the combat | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
missions of before. But we know that we can succeed by doing that. And | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
there has been no American leadership so far, which has caused | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
the situation where we are facing now, where there are no good | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
options. President Obama has himself accepted that intelligence in the | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
Middle East had been lacking, that the ISIL advance had taken everyone | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
by surprise. Is did not surprise me, it did not surprise some of us. We | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
were not surprised. I can show you where we predicted it. OK? Pursuing | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
this idea of how interventionist the US should be, the US Defence | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
Secretary Chuck Hegel, a Republican like you... Not like me! He is a | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
Republican. He is a Vietnam veteran like you. He says he is adamant that | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
force should only be used only for clear objectives with clear exit | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
strategies. He has gone even further, saying he regretted his | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
vote for the war in Iraq in 2000 and two. And on the other hand, you have | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
a Democrat like Hillary Clinton when she was Secretary of State saying | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
that she feels crises have been made worse by the US absence. There is | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
this debate. It does not necessarily split on partisan lines. Views such | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
as those of Chuck Hegel should be considered? Chuck Hegel, in case you | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
missed it last week, said that ISIS was the biggest challenge we have | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
ever faced and that it was a direct threat to the united states of | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
America. I agree with Chuck Hegel. And so therefore, he is arguing | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
strenuously for the things I have been arguing for four years. And in | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
light of our knowledge that these events were happening and that we | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
would be facing the situation we are facing today unless we acted | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
earlier. We did not and now we have this very difficult situation. Chuck | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
Hegel suddenly called it the greatest threat he has ever seen. | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Politicians like Barack Obama have to accept that the Iraq War cost the | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
US $240 million per day at its height. Over 4000 American | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
servicemen and women killed and thousands more maimed and injured. | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
And so, as President Obama says, you have to consider what kind of | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
strategy you are going to have, make sure there is a clear exit strategy. | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
We would not be in the situation we are in today if President Obama had | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
left the residual force behind, which we could have and which he | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
wanted to, despite bragging that the war was over and that the tide was | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
receding, both of which were false statements. We have the mid`term | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
elections. Republicans only need six seats to win control of the Senate. | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
If they do that, the Republicans could set the agenda for the final | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
two years of the Obama White House. Do you think they are going to do | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
that? If so, do you think we will see any major changes on foreign | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
policy? If we gain control of both houses, I am confident that we will | :23:11. | :23:19. | |
act in a way that forces the US to restore a lot of its capabilities, | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
that we will force policies that are far more internationalist in | :23:27. | :23:36. | |
nature, and we will increase our defence spending significantly, | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
which is much needed now, and many of us want to sit down and work with | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
the president. I tried many times in the past but when he told Senator | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
Graham and I bet he was going to strike Syria, upgrade the Free Syria | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
Army, upgrade `` downgrade Bashar al`Assad, and then four days later, | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
reversed that decision without telling anybody, we lost a lot of | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
confidence in him because he did not tell us the truth. Senator John | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
McCain, thank you for being on the programme. Thank you. | :24:12. | :24:36. | |
Compared with last night, there is a greater chance this morning of some | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
mist and | :24:42. | :24:42. |