Ibrahim Dabbashi - Permanent Representative of Libya to the United Nations HARDtalk

in fossil fuel to reinvest in clean energy. Now, it is time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. In a Middle

East convulsed with violence, sectarianism and extremism, the

slow`motion collapse of Libya as a functioning state has received

relatively little attention. That must surely change. Libya is a major

oil producer and its internal divisions are currently being

deepened by the meddling of regional powers intent on expanding their

influence. HARDtalk speaks to Libya's UN ambassador Ibrahim

Dabbashi. Who or what can save Libya?

Ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi, at UN headquarters in New York on the

welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Would it be fair to say that right

now, you represent a Libyan government which has lost its

ability to govern inside Libya? I am representing the legitimate Libyan

government, certainly the Libyan authorities, but I don't agree that

it has lost its power inside Libya. You don't agree? You may not agree,

but the fact other facts. The government you represent is not in

control of the capital, Tripoli, it is not in control of most of

Benghazi for the city of Misrata or other cities too. It is writ does

not run in the most important cities in the country. It is a fact that it

is not controlling Tripoli, but most of the country is under its control.

Where there is fighting it is very difficult to say who is in control,

but all of the services are still going on. Put it this way. You could

not return to your own country right now, and fly into the international

airport, because it is under the control of the rebels, or whatever

we call them, as well. They have said if you did try to return, they

would arrest you as a traitor. I come back to the point, you sit

there in New York in a very awkward situation. If I go back to the

airport which is under the control of the militia, certainly there

might be some danger on my life, but there are other airports that are

still under the control of the government, so I can go there, and I

can also come through the... It seems that you and other

representatives of the government have massively underestimated the

challenge posed by Islamist militias, because I look back at

what you said in June, you said " the country is as united today as it

was in the 2011 revolution. " a few months later, in late August, you

said " Libya is now close to a full`blown civil war" . How come you

got it so wrong? Let me say, there is a difference between the Libyan

people as a whole, which practically constitutes the majority, which is

more than 80%, and those who are actively militant, which is less

than 20%. If we look at them unity of them Libyan people as a whole,

certainly the vivid, unity is there. On the 5th of July, when for the

first time a militia has attacked another militia, the situation has

completely changed, and we are certainly on the verge of a civil

war, because now it is no longer a separate security incident. Now it

is a full`scale war between factions. A full`scale war. If it is

indeed a full`scale war, as you have just said, would you acknowledge

that the government over the last three years, and of course it has

not been a very stable government, but those governing Libya in the

period after the removal of Muammar Gaddafi, have made some terrible

mistakes? People like you, who wield authority and Libya, people like

yourself, who was actually an official in the Kadhafi regime, then

changed sides and appeared to become a beacon of hope for the new Libya

`` who won the Kadhafi regime. You let down the people of your country,

and that is in a way why the Islamist militias appear to have got

so much traction, because there is so much dissatisfaction with the

leadership Libya has been given in the last few years. Certainly, I am

sure that it is a combination of mistakes by the different

governments since the fall of Gaddafi. No one denies that, that is

because of the incompetence of the different ministers, and all those

officials who have power in Libya. I have nothing to do with that. I am a

diplomat, I have worked as a diplomat, and I am still working as

a diplomat, so I have nothing to do with decisions being made at the

level of government. We lack a real leadership to fill the vacuum that

has been created since the fall of the regime. No Libyan denies that.

Isn't a problem that you don't have that leadership? You have a

government now, that has no ability to govern in Tripoli, the capital,

so it has led to the remote eastern city of Tobruk, and it sits there

with the House of Representatives that sits there with a house of just

15 or 16% of the electorate in the summer elections, which most people

did not vote for, and which many people see as illegitimate. That is

a bit of a problem. I think on the populist level, no one questions the

legitimacy of the government and the House of Representatives. With

respect, of course they do. You know there is a rival Parliament sitting

in Tripoli, so many people question the legitimacy of your Parliament.

These are those who lost the elections. They were in power, they

were controlling the militias in the past, and they want to continue to

control it in the future, since they did not get enough seats to control

the Parliament. Now they are creating problems, and they are

trying to recreate another National Assembly and another government, and

they are practically trying to impede the political process and the

democratic process in Libya. These are only the factions who lost the

elections. The factions who lost the elections, you say they are very

well armed, the militias who currently control Tripoli and

appeared to back the rival Parliament in Tripoli, they seem to

outgun the Libyan army. I wonder how you propose to seek authority

restored on the half of the Central government, when you're armed forces

are consistently been beaten on the ground by the militias, the

so`called Libyan militias. One of the mistakes was that the Libyan

militias were paid more than the national army, and they are well

armed and they are harmed... The national army has been neglected in

terms of armament and equipment. The whole security responsibility given

to these militias, and that is a mistake that the different

governments in the past made. To come back and create an army is not

an easy task for the government. It will take some time. Now they have

started to mobilise all units of the army, they are trying to bring back

the offices of the army. It will take some time, and the community

needs to have a strong army that can deal with all these militias. That

is in case they don't agree to disarm and obey the government. The

trouble is, you talk about the militias and their lack of

legitimacy on the other side, but it seems the government is now backing

its own militia, that of a man who used to be a general in the Armed

Forces and is now a private operator, and appears to be the only

man who was offering assistance to Islamist militias. No, ago Khalifa

Haftar try to take control `` awhile ago, Khalifa Haftar try to take

control in Benghazi. Khalifa Haftar took the arms and try to organise

some units to fire for themselves. Now that is no longer the case.

Khalifa Haftar now has to step back and allow the new chief of staff to

do his job. Certainly, if Khalifa Haftar... If I may say so, Khalifa

Haftar's former number two is now the head of the armed forces. It

seems the government's relationship with Khalifa Haftar has been cut.

Officially, he has no official post, as I know for the moment. But

if he wants to assist in any way as a person, he can. That may be the

case officially, but reality and what is officially the case can be

different things. That leads to the next thing I want to ask you about,

and that is the control of the national oil corporation. Who is in

charge of it right now? The rest of the world cares about that. It is in

the hands of the professionals who are working in the oilfield. The

revenue of the oil is still going to the central bank, and it is under

control of the government. Have you seen the YouTube video which shows a

rival oil minister in Tripoli saying that he has taken over control on

behalf of the general national congress and the rebel militias? No,

that is only 40 show. Practically, the money is still coming to the

central bank which is under the control of the government `` for the

show. This entire line you are giving me about things being under

control seems very thin, if we remember that the central bank

itself, the government into Brooke, just fired the chief of the Central

bank because he refused to transfer tens of millions of dollars to the

new Parliament `` Tobruk. So, everything is in utter chaos. There

might be some confusion, but anyway, the central bank as an institution,

the national oil company, I don't know what its name is exactly, but

it is still working normally. They are working as usual, business as

usual, nothing has changed. Everything is going smoothly on a

professional level. Whatever happens at the top, practically it doesn't

matter that much. Just a final point, I don't know whether you saw

the statement from the government into Brooke in mid`September, a few

days ago, `` in Tobruk, they said they had lost control of ministries

and state organisations. Did you see that one?

They lost control of the government institutions in Tripoli, that's

right. The government has left the capital for quite sometime and

now... However, those workers or the civil servants were there still for

some time. Some of them are capable to go back to their offices and they

are working. But most of them, many of them, are afraid. They are under

threat. They are afraid that they may be obliged to do the work

against the will of the government, so they stay at home. In all

honesty, do you think the only hope for the government that you

represent, which we should always remember right now isn't in Tripoli

but is 1500 kilometres away in Tom Brook, do you think the only hope

for that government is outside military intervention? `` Tobruk. I

think military intervention isn't accepted at any level and I think

even the government has no intention to ask for an external intervention

or foreign intervention in Libya. Really? Right at some stage the

government might ask for assistance somehow, even militarily, in case it

feels that its armed forces aren't capable of doing the job, especially

in terms of the air force. I'm a little confused. You say absolutely

do one in Libya once outside intervention and yet the United

States appeared to confirm that at the end of August Egyptian and UAE

military is had been involved in air attacks on militia positions in

Tripoli? `` militaries. I think the United States denied that. The next

day it was denied. No one is sure about any intervention from Egypt or

the Emirates. The Libyan air force also confirmed that it was their

work. IAC. `` I see. You have talked about and Arab intervention force

disarming all nonstate armed groups and again I'm struggling to square

that with you telling me that no one in Libya wants any outside

intervention. I said that the only way for ending this conflict is to

have these militias accept disarming themselves and give a chance to the

Libyan national army and the police force to take the control of the

security in Libya and its borders. Or they have to accept a neutral

force from the Arab or Muslim countries, to come and controlled

the disarming of these militias, to make sure that their arms are not

going to any other militia. It is conditional to the acceptance by the

different militias in Libya. I wonder... You are a diplomat who

know the convocations of the Middle East. I'm wondering what realistic

chance you think any sort of united Arab intervention might have in

Libya, when you yourself have accused Qatar and sedan of aiding

the militias in Tripoli? `` Sudan. I think it is clear for the Libyan

people now that there is support coming from `` coming for these

militias from the outside. But in any case if you need the support of

any Arab country or friendly country it is for the government to decide

about that and it has to be approved by the house of representatives.

Hang on, Ambassador, given you have categorically denied that your side

got any help from Egypt and the UAE, I can't let you get away with

it using Qatar and Saddam of arming the militias unless you have

evidence. `` Sudan. What is your specific evidence that Qatar is

aiding the Islamist militias? There are many reports by the Libyan

people, that many air force Qatari air planes are arriving to the

airport and also... Anyway, I never mentioned Qatar and Sudan. But since

you mention that, I have no problem in talking about that. But the

Sudanese cargo plane was arriving to our city with a cargo of arms...

Ambassador, diplomacy is a complicated thing but I'm sure you

know that both Qatar and Sudan have absolutely denied those allegations.

Before we end, I want to ask you a wider question. The United States

led a coalition of Western forces, which was involved in the removal,

military intervention and removal, of colonel Gaddafi. I wonder if your

message to the world now is that unless there is a new Western focus

on what's happening in Libya today, then Libya could become very rapidly

a very oil`rich failed state? I think we need support from the

international community, to let the government have the control of all

the Libyan territories. There is the possibility that Libya becomes a

failed state and there's the possibility Libya will be

controlled, could be controlled, by the terrorists if we don't take the

necessary steps to reinforce the Libyan army and certainly combat

effectively those who are in Benghazi and elsewhere. They are

completely against the authority of the Libyan state. You call the

people in charge of Tripoli today terrorists. The UN has just issued a

statement in the last few hours, asking the people you represent,

your government, to open up a dialogue and have talks with those

people in Tripoli. But it seems talks are unlikely to get anywhere

if you believe they are nothing but" terrorists" . I never said they

are terrorists but they are out of law and they are aligned with

terrorists. That's what I said. Certainly the house of

representatives mentioned that they are terrorists on the ground, that

they are allied with the terrorists in Benghazi. So, I think there's

always a good possibility that we could find a way out of this mess

and out of this tragic war among the brothers. We have watched with great

deal of alarm how Syria and Iraq have spiralled downwards to

situations of terrible violence and chaos. Is it not the truth that it

is now too late to prevent the same thing happening in Libya? I think it

not too late. Still there is considerable support for the Libyan

legitimate authorities and I think there is a unanimous international

support to the legitimate Libyan authorities. So, I think it is very

easy to take the necessary steps to control these terrorist groups and

also to bring those who are allied with them to reason and try to find

a solution to the building problems. To be very clear and briefly, you

are diplomat and you say the only way out of this is through

diplomacy. There is no armed military solution? It should be by

dialogue. The peaceful solution is the one which is desired by all the

Libyan people and it is usually the most effective. War brings war.

Clashes brings clashes. Hatred will bring more hatred. So, hopefully all

the Libyans will come back to reason and they will sit together and they

will bring a plan forward. OK, Ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi, thank

you for joining me from New York City. Thank you very much.

After the relatively quiet September weather so far, things are staying

reasonably settled through the course of this week, although there

will be some rain on the cards, thanks to this weather front you can

see, pushing slowly south through the overnight period and on into

Tuesday. It will bring some bursts of rain across parts of Northern

Ireland and northern England during the course of