Gilles de Kerchove - EU Counterterrorism Coordinator HARDtalk

State. Now on BBC News it's time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. How serious a

threat to Western security is the extremist group that calls itself

Islamic State? According to those governments now backing military

action against the jihadis, the danger is very real, not least from

foreign fighters, battle hardened in Syria and Iraq, who return to homes

in the West. My guest is the EU counterterror co`ordinator, Gilles

de Kerchove. Does the EU have a coherent response to the Islamic

State challenge? Gilles de Kerchove, welcomed the

HARDtalk. Thank you for joining me from Brussels. Thank you for

inviting me. Is the Islamic State organisation now the number one

terror threat facing Europe? It is indeed the number one threat. We

shouldn't overlook Al Qaeda which might still be in the game. Barack

Obama suggested the rapid rise of the Islamic State took the American

security apparatus I surprise. Is that true in Europe too? In Europe,

we have been extremely aware of the threat of foreign fighters fought

two years and we have worked on this subject two years ago. On the rise

of ISIL, we were surprised by that but not by the rapid progress of the

group in Iraq and Syria. No surprise that thousands of European citizens

have flooded into Syria and Iraq to join IS? If it is no surprise, why

haven't you stopped it? We have tried to stem the flow. Because we

adopted several measures in June, 2013, we have reduced the number. It

is steady growth and there are factors for that. It is easy to get

to Turkey, it is cheap. The region has resonated well for people

attracted by the jihadi narrative. These are reasons why the flow is

different than what we experienced in Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen.

You say you have reduced the flow. Let's talk numbers. What do you

believe the number of Europeans to be who are now fighting in Syria and

Iraq for this organisation, Islamic State? I don't have precise figures

on the people still on the ground. I would say that 3000 plus have been

exposed to the phenomenon. We have something like 20% returnees,

several who were killed and we still have several 100 fighting there.

Described for me the typical profile, if there is such a thing,

of the Islamic State fighter who has made that extraordinary decision to

leave a home in Europe and join this very dangerous fight in the Middle

East. We don't have a profile of the foreign fighter. We have different

types of profile. People with a criminal record known by police. We

have young people leaving with no previous criminal record. It's

interesting to see why they go there. It may be very different.

Some are attracted by what they feel to be a duty for the Muslims, to

support the Syrian opposition. Some are driven by their Sunni `Shia

fight. Some are attracted by the Al Qaeda rhetoric and some are just

seeking the thrill of the fight. That is very disappointing. You say

you are not surprised. I am guessing there are elements of this that

surprise even you. In newspapers here over the last day or so, we

have seen pictures of women, girls as young as 14 and 15 years old,

posing for pictures in Syria, some of them holding automatic weapons,

fully veiled, these are schoolchildren who somehow have

found their way from Europe to the bad lands, the battle fronts of

Syria. How on earth is that being allowed to happen? True and that is

a surprise, to see the quite high number of females involved in a

conflict. Very few are on the frontline. Most of them go for

family jihad or a logistical function. Very few carry a

Kalashnikov. This is a serious concern. It is easy to go to Turkey.

It is a huge destination for tourism. From Turkey, for a certain

period of time, it was possible to cross the border quite easily, which

might explain why some of them went there undetected. We have improved

the way people are controlling at the borders either because we know

their intent before they leave or because we develop a mechanism like

access to passenger name records to detect suspicious travel. I agree

that it is amazing and we have got to really stop this flow. You are

the EU anti` terror co`ordinator, which EU member states are the most

problematic for you? Where the most fighters are heading out to Syria

and Iraq? There is a core group of 10`11 member states out of the 28

and Britain is an month`end. In terms of in relative terms, Belgium

stands high, between 300`400 out of a population of 10 million. That is

quite high. Germany, France, in absolute terms, probably the

highest, 900. You have the Netherlands as well, the Danes, the

Swedes, not many from Spain or Italy, a bit Austria. The core group

countries are mentioned. I want to get to specific questions on what

those EU member states are doing to curb and control this problem. For

we do, I need to address the scale of the threat that you believe is

posed by these people when they return and of course, many if not

most of them to return to the EU, having had the battlefront

experience in Syria and Iraq. How would you characterise the threat

they pose on their return? We think that there is a risk, a serious

risk, first, because they have been trained militarily to use explosives

and arms, they have been brainwashed heavily. They might have friends and

comrades all over the world, a huge network. More worrying, we have seen

that with the person who allegedly has killed four Jews in Brussels,

they have raised significantly the tolerance to violence so that we

must look at each case when they return and assessed that the

dangerousness. Some might need psychological support. Some might

need social help to reinsert themselves into society. Some should

be sent to court if we have the evidence. When we don't have

evidence, which is a challenge as we are not present that may present in

Syria, we need to monitor them closely. Have there been plots

involving those individuals returning from Syria and Iraq that

have been foiled inside the EU? This isn't information I have but I

understand on one or two occasions, security services have stopped

people from mounting a tax. But I cannot be more explicit `` attacks.

Which countries would they be an? I don't have specific examples but I

remember one specific example in France where they had enough

evidence. In Brussels there was an attack in which four people were

killed from someone who was in Syria. There was one in the UK.

Before we get to the Brussels case, you are being, if I may say so, a

little bit vague. You are the anti` terror co`ordinator, so I would

expect you to know a lot of our plots that have been foiled. We had

the Iraq Prime Minister, Haidar al`Abadi, just the other day say

that he had specific information about plots involving the Paris

Metro subway and indeed subway in the United States as well. What can

you tell me about that, was it credible or not? I will disappoint

you. From what I understand, America was surprised by the information

revealed in the General Assembly in New York. The TV service in the US

won't aware of that information `` weren't. I am not even myself

informed of something specific in the subway or friends. By the way, I

am not operations myself, I don't need to go into the detail, that

isn't my task. You won't disappoint me. I am interested to know whether

you believe certain governments may have an interest in talking up this

threat to Western security interests from so`called Islamic

State to a point which isn't actually justified by the facts. If

you look at some research, I am sure you are aware of the Norwegian anti`

terror expert, who has done an extensive survey of 900 returning

jihadis returning over 20 years and he says that fewer than one in nine

exhibit an inclination toward violence when they return to their

Western homes. True, I have seen this study to the extent that it is

a scientific study. Let's be honest, one in nine is quite impressive when

you have 3000 Europeans who went there. I think we cannot play that

game. We have to be well prepared. The good news would be that none of

the returnees would mount any attack, nor ins by anyone in Europe

to mount an attack. It's not just the returnees acting themselves.

These are veterans and they might have an attractive effect on others.

It's not only on Europe. Its north Africa as well, Tunisia has more

than 3000 citizens currently in Syria. My Algerian colleagues

reminded me that the awful decade where more than 100,000 were killed

started with the return of the more the hiding from Afghanistan. History

tells us to be extremely vigilant on this `` Mujahideen. By the way, it

isn't just about military strikes, it is something we have worked on

for more than 18 months before it was even the idea to intervene with

military strikes. I don't see the politic. Just on that question of

military strikes, the most impactful part of the Western response to

Islamic State right now, do you, from your vantage point as

co`ordinator of counter`terror in the European Union, think that it is

helpful, intelligent, to respond to Islamic State by sending Western

bombers to bomb them from the sky? I think it would be questionable if it

were only that. I am in favour of airstrikes. We had to stop this

organisation. It was destabilising completely the region, Jordan and

Lebanon were the next step. Military strikes were very necessary because

these people had access to heavy weapons. Sorry to interrupt but from

a counter`terror point of view, surely the one thing that is bound

to motivate these people to consider acts of political violence,

terrorism, in those countries which are now bombing them, surely it is

the motivation that comes from being bombed that is paramount? That is

why I was able to say that it is just part of a much wider strategy

but if you want, or approach, that has to be complemented with boots on

the ground and that is what we have tried to have with the Iraqi army,

the Peshmerga and the Syrian opposition, which should get more

weapons. It's not only that. We have to work on the political level,

important to convince the new Prime Minister in Iraq to have not only an

inclusive government but inclusive policies so that the Shia, the Sunni

and Kurds feel they share the benefit from the new policy. It is

important that we split the coalition. As you know, this

organisation is a mixture of jihadis, Sunni tribes and the former

soldiers and officers from Saddam Hussein's army. They don't share the

objectives. We have the split this odd coalition.

You referred to boots on the ground. We know that boots on the

ground are not effectively capable of driving Islamic State backwards.

Are you saying from your particular vantage point that Western forces

will have to put boots on the ground? They will have to provide

arms and advice, and help with intelligence. But there are no other

effective boots on the ground. The Iraqi army is pretty useless and

Bashar al`Assad has no interest in helping the Western coalition so you

can forget about them and the free Syrian army as well because it is

not capable. Who are these boots on the ground if they will not come

from member states of the European Union or the United States? They

have said very clearly that they don't anticipate having troops on

the ground and I think they will stick to this. You are quick to

disregard the Iraqi army. There is room for improvement but they are

not completely ineffective. The Peshmerga are good fighters and if

we provide them with sophisticated weapons they can be very effective

as well. This Syrian position is not easy but these people need to get

better weapons as well in Aleppo and Iran because we cannot let it fall.

There is not only that. The political approach but the

educational approach. We have to be effective on the Internet and

challenge the ideology. We have to ground the resources of the

organisation. Oil production and money coming from different parts of

the world as well as the arms access. It is a comprehensive

approach that we will succeed at. We don't declare the war on terror like

President Bush. We are mobilizing a military response to intervene. You

say we have to do this and we have to do that and I want to know who we

is? You are the EU Counterterrorism Coordinator. 90% of the Onis

will.i.am the member states `` onus will lie on. I recall there is

someone I appreciate a lot to I talk to quite often. As such an

organisation, ministers will discuss policy. You have to look at both. It

is a bit simple to look at the European Union like a strange

animal, completely disconnected from what happens overseas home a that is

not the case. So we have to mobilize certain measures. But you can't.

There is no European Intel. You have a policing force and the judicial

co`ordination force but fundamentally, more than anything

else this is about intelligence and European member states are not

compared to fully share and co`ordinate their intelligence

operations. You know it and I know it and it is a problem that you

cannot overcome. That is not fully true. On foreign fighters, the

security forces of a group I referred to earlier are sharing 100%

of the information they have. I am pushing them to use more European

police forces. It is a unique force which can help detect suspicious

travel and it can be quite effective in tracking activity around Syria

and Iraq. The European Union has about 5% of the combatants but we

can make this more effective. You said member states were not willing

to co`operate effectively on anti` terror measures and given the

evidence, we can go through it all the governments are doing, but it

seems to me that the problem has not got better and you may face a

difficult decision yourself. After seven years in the job this month, I

have not yet decided to resign because I am convinced that we can

add value. The treaty is what it is. We're not supposed to be in the

driver seat. We are not responsible for security, the member states

are. If you consider this a relevant, I think it is up to them.

If they want to discuss this issue every three months, and propose

measures because they believe in it, to be honest, everyone does. In

Britain we are seeing ager of Conan crackdown proposed by the Cameron

government `` a Draconian. They are denying passports of dual nationals

returning from Syria, giving the police new powers to access Internet

to medications and data. A whole raft of measures. When you look at

this kind of crackdown, do you think it will be effective or not? I think

it helps and I don't want to concentrate on Britain. Let me take

France. In the past we were a bit sceptical about events countering

violent extremism and because of Europe, we have tried to learn from

other member states. The UK's channel programme and so forth. The

action was decided by the French government and it was very much

inspired by the work of the European Union and it has been quite

effective. You worry about civil rights? You talk about Britain and

France. A group of French judges have condemned the exorbitant powers

of control and surveillance at the expense of freedom of expression. Do

you worry about that? Not in the French draft legislation which I

support fully. I think we need to allow people to prevent others from

leaving the country and withdraw passports where necessary. We're

trying to be effective at you are right. We have to be cautious ``

but. We need to use this context to impose a big brother society and we

need to strike the right balance. You keep saying we implying that

there is a carefully crafted coronation at European level which I

don't see. One other specific which is a major challenge to you. There's

complete European disarray over the question of taking ransoms for

hostages who have been taken by Islamic State. The British

government is adamant it will not happen. We know despite official

denials that both the French and the Italians do pay ransoms. What is

your view as the co`ordinator of what should be done when hostages

are in the terrible situations we have seen in Syria? In June this

year, 28 ministers of foreign affairs made this very clear. We

made a blunt statement that ransoms should not be paid. So who is not

telling the truth because we know ransoms have been paid? I am the

last one to challenge or to suspect that what the Prime Minister... Who

did you say? France and Italy. If you look at the record, even

President Obama has said that he believed that the French and the

Italians have paid ransoms. I have no reason to believe in what the

French president `` not to believe in what the French president or the

Italian president say. The opposition of the European Union is

clear in June of this year. You can tell me what official policy is and

what officials say that the reality on the ground is different and I

come back to that point. It makes the position of the European Union

look incredible when you give me answers like that. I don't share

your view. It is something which is much more clear than it was before

banks to the work of the US and the UK and a step`by`step, we have a

more clear policy which has been explicitly stated by the 28

ministers. That is a step and I must say my British colleagues were also

very pleased. We will have to end there. Thank you for joining me. My

pleasure. Hello again. As we change the month,

it looks like eventually we will change the weather type across the

British Isles. Through September the jet stream was