Julius Malema, Commander-in-Chief, Economic Freedom Fighters, South Africa HARDtalk


Julius Malema, Commander-in-Chief, Economic Freedom Fighters, South Africa

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Now it's time for HARDtalk with Julius Malema, a controversial

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figure and leader of South Africa's Economic Freedom Fighters.

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Hello and welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Zeinab Badawi.

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He is one of the most colourful and controversial politicians

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To his supporters he is a populist who understands their needs and is

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To his critics he is a demagogue who makes inflammatory

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statements against corruption whilst personally enriching himself.

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My guest today is Julius Malema the leader of the

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which came out of nowhere to win more than 6% of the vote

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they've made their mark in South African politics.

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But is the EFF anything more than a protest party?

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Julius Malema, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Are the Economic Freedom

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Fighters anything more than a protest party making eye-catching

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statements but not amounting to very much? It is a government in waiting,

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an alternative to the ruling party in South Africa, the fastest-growing

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country -- party in the country. In less than a year, it it got 25

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members in Parliament and is represented in all provincial

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parliaments in the Republic of South Africa with a clear manifesto, a

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clear election manifesto, and alternative policies on how the

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problems of South Africa can be resolved. You had 1 million votes in

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the last election. Do you really believe you can prevent -- present a

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credible alternative to the ANC, the party of the late Nelson Mandela?

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Absolutely. This is a political party. It can be defeated. The ANC

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is self-destructing. The ANC has become like a pig, eating its own

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children. The party elite provides for itself and does not distribute

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the wealth of the country. And it does not resolve the inequalities,

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unemployment and poverty confronting the majority of our people. Is it

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necessary for you to make these criticisms of the ANC to also

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discredit Nelson Mandela, when he is obviously in no position to defend

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himself against some of the comments you have made about him recently?

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You said Nelson Mandela, after his release from prison, he stayed in a

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white man's house, a club of white men told him that what he

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represented would not be achieved. That is when he turned against

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himself. You said he was too old and too tired. He took the revolution as

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far as he could but he could not do more. What do you mean by that? That

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is the reality. He went to stay with... It is not disputing that

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after he separated from Winnie Mandela. And he attended separate

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meetings with the white elite group that owned the South African

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economy. And he was doing their bidding, is what you are implying.

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No, he then compromised what he represented. The Mandela that you

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celebrate now is not the Mandela before prison. It is a Mandela who

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was co-opted into a white, liberal agenda and towed the line. He was

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told nationalisation would not work and some of his policies must be

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abandoned. You are saying that Mandela was eight sellout? I'm not

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saying that. You are not saying he is a sellout? I'm saying he fought

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off two here and we have to take it from where he left it. You said that

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the Nelson that we celebrate now is a stage-managed Mandela who

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compromise the principles of the revolution captured in the freedom

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charter. Absolutely. Any deviation from that is a sellout position. The

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ANC sold out because they left their freedom charter. And Nelson Mandela

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was a sellout is I have to contextualise this because it is not

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about individuals so much as the collective leadership of the ANC

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that led us to compromise during negotiations in 1994. More than

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Nelson Mandela, it is the collective leadership of the ANC that abandoned

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the freedom charter. And the freedom charter was formed on the basis of

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the Constitution in 1994. It was accepted in... There you are, saying

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that you represent the spirit of the revolution that ended apartheid and

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so on. Let us take on a sample. The recent student protest against the

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increase in tuition fees. Were worthy Economic Freedom Fighters?

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This was a grassroots and organic student movement. This would have

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been a really totemic issue for the Economic Freedom Fighters to have

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picked up and said, OK, students, we will start mobilising all of you to

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get this increase abandoned by the government. The students did it

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themselves. The Economic Freedom Fighters was there. Afterwards. No.

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Look at the pictures from when it started. There was a man there, the

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Economic Freedom Fighters leader. And the ANC Youth League leader.

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Both of these inspired the leadership of the EFF. We did not

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have to be there ourselves. One of the leaders of the student protest

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tweeted in October that you will hear the EFF say they had been

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fighting before the hashtag fees must fall started. That is news to

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me. Who did run with the issue but my point is that you did that after

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the students had begun it themselves. -- you did. You jumped

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on the bandwagon. No, I'm a authority on this subject. The EFF

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student, and. You can Google them. The EFF did not come later. We did

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not want to get involved because we knew that students have already got

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capable leadership, so we did not have to hijack it. The students did

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very well. If you go into a video when the students went to the ANC

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headquarters, the ANC Secretary General, the guy who tells him to

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sit down on the floor, he is the chairperson of the EFF student

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command, so we have been there. I made the point that it started as a

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grassroots movement. But are you not just hitting the headlines for being

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disruptive as a protest voice? Looking at what happened in

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Parliament earlier this year when Jacob Zuma was making the State of

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the Union address and all of those scuffles that we saw. One of our

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correspondent said he saw one EFF MP trying to swing a punch at security

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officials. Is that conduct becoming of a party that you have just said

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is an alternative to the ANC in government? We will not allow a

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situation where security bounces just walk into the assembly and it

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is up when we don't do anything. We are not going to allow that. Week

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stood up peacefully. As for Jacob Zuma, when is he going to repay the

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money of our people? He did not steal the money of people. You are

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referring to the controversy about the upgrades to the home of Jacob

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Zuma in his home province. And the Public protector said that the

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president had benefited unduly. I would pick up the point that you

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said he had stolen money. If you want to call it benefited unduly,

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that is you being polite. I'm being brutally honest. He stole the money.

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I said that in Parliament and they chased me out. I went to court and

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the court said there was nothing wrong with what I had said. I'm not

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talking about the public protector... She was critical about

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the whole thing. I'm just saying that... I'm accusing him of doing

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exactly that. Jacob Zuma stole the money. I'm accusing him. Well, I'm

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saying that he denies it and the public investigation... He has a

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right to deny that. I have a right to accuse him. You are not going to

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take that right away from me. Whatever the rights and wrongs, what

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about the scuffles in Parliament? When we said to him, when are you

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going to repay the money that you stole from government through the

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building of your house they did not want him to answer that question. He

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has been avoiding that question. We firmly put that point on the table

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and today we have a situation where, actually, the unnecessary spending

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of money has stopped because of the EFF. The money was increasing,

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escalating year after year. Since the arrival of the EFF in

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Parliament, the amount of money they are spending in Jacob Zuma's house

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has effectively stopped. In 2008 when you were a member of the ANC,

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which had been since you were a child, and you were the leader of

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the ANC Youth League from 2008 to 2012, you said we were prepared to

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die for Jacob Zuma, you were prepared to take up arms and killed

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him, and yet here you are as one of his harshest critics. -- kill for

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him. That statement was not to be meant literally. It was expressed as

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a metaphor. I'm not saying that you were literally going to kill... I'm

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just saying... We were prepared to make him president of the country

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because at the time we were convinced that his predecessor

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wanted to go for a third time and that would undermine the

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Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. My question was not to

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take what you said literally but to point out that you have gone from

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being one of his strongest defenders to one of his fiercest critics. It

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is strange, isn't it? It is not strange. I raised that with him. But

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this is not when we -- what we voted for, him in reaching himself and his

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family. We were not going to allow that. -- enriching. You say that you

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are the voice of the dispossession and disenfranchised. You wear your

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distinctive red beret is. Are your policies as distinct as your

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policies? What do you bring to the table? Rationalisation of minds,

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banks and monopoly industries. Quality and free education and

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healthcare. Proper and spacious houses for our people. The creation

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of jobs. These are the core principles of the EFF. There is no

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party in Parliament or in the Republic of South Africa that speaks

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about those issues. We are the only ones who want the workers on the

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ground benefit from the wealth, the minerals and the natural resources,

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of South Africa. We know about your recent march to the Johannesburg

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stock exchange when you said you wanted 51% of companies to be owned

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by the workers, where is the money going to come from for that, or will

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you do it without compensation? Absolutely. What we need to do is

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companies must just surrender 51%. Just like that? No compensation?

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They have exploited the wealth of this country for much too long. Just

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do it? It is time that the people benefited. People don't have money

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to buy those shares and they will never have the money to buy those

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shares. And the same for land? We know that many people agree that the

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fact that 85% of the land in South Africa is only owned by 10% of the

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population is something that should be addressed. The ANC has already

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signalled it will be trying to introduce reforms to make sure, for

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example, that any individual South Africa cannot own more than 12,000

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hectares of land. It will distribute more than 90,000 hectares of land to

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smallholders and so forth. On that issue, the government is trying to

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do something. You cannot pretend that for the past 25 years may have

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the power they could not have done anything they wanted. Until today,

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they have not done anything. The figures you are referring to happen

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during colonial times and they are still happening today because the

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ANC did not want to tamper with the economic structure and the patterns

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of property ownership in Africa. They are not doing anything

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on it. Daniel Silke says these demands, the ones who have been

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talking about, that corporations, mining companies, land and so on,

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they represent a wish list from the EFF. The question is how disruptive

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they are willing to become if the demands are not that. Are you

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suggesting you would do this by force? We are going to engage in a

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very persuasive and peaceful engagement with capital. We have

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already done that. We are meeting captains of the industry. Some are

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beginning to respond to our memorandum. Some say that these

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proposals... Civil disobedience? Would you use civil disobedience?

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Not until our people are pushed to the limit. But I'm saying that they

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are prepared to give shares to the black elite who are politically

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connected and if you are prepared to give to one individual, why not give

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it to the workers themselves who are making this company into what it

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is? And the companies are beginning to say that it looks like this will

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work in their favour. The ANC says that more needs to be done to help

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the 85% of black people in South Africa who are at the bottom. Jacob

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Zuma has said that it will take a while to undo decades and decades of

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policies under apartheid. He has been applauded for the national

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economic plan, which is trying to address some of those issues full of

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a proper economic blueprint to improve the lot of people. We have

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seen extra housing, water, sanitation.

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You can say the economic policy makes the economy grow but it

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doesn't create jobs for people who deserve to be celebrated. The result

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is that inequality has grown in South Africa. It has become more

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rich over poor and those divisions, unfortunately, they happen a long

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richer lines. The Rich Beem white and the poor being black -- being.

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There is no one today who can come with a coherent argument that indeed

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inequality has been resolved in South Africa. I didn't say that. I

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think we are one of the highest unequal societies in the world. But

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it is the progress? Progress until we die. This OECD report talks about

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South Africa reducing absolute poverty, ruling a pensions, care for

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disabled children, water, housing, electricity and well-being enhancing

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substantially. That is not the only intervention, giving people social

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grants, that cannot be celebrated. It is not long-term, we don't want

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to create a welfare state, we want to create a state where people work

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for a living and own their own economy and the means of

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production. Let's look at how you are doing in the country, because

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you said you were gaining support and so on but let me just give you

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one example, the economic hub that includes Johannesburg, if you look

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at the elections last year, you got eight seats there and if you look at

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The Democratic Alliance under its new leader who is very charismatic,

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he won 23 seats, he is a local boy. They are eating your lunch there.

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Let's correct the facts. You are trying to create the impression that

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my money produces numbers, I will still be tested next year in the

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open elections. But on the basis of how he did... It is premature, he

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doesn't deserve those accolades. We have gone into the Soweto area where

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my money comes from, with ADA won once in local elections. They lost

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in 2014. The people who have been voting for the DAR those who have

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been looking for an alternative and they didn't find it, they had to

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settle. But in the last election, we saw the DA's vote go up to 22% last

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year. So it is increasing. And now the fastest increase in membership

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in the parties amongst black South Africans. It is undisputed that the

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party will look forward to growing in South Africa. In 2014, the EFF

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was new and did not have resources. It went into the election with zero

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parlance inside the bank and yet it managed. And imagine EFF with a

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little bit of resources. The DA is no competition. Until 2012, you were

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part of the ANC elite, you could say. You were part of that

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architecture. Someone might say, why should we accept what Julius Malema

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says? He has also been the subject of controversy with the expensive

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house you bought in the most expensive part of South Africa, and

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also the issues over tax and whether you may tax returns which reflected

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what you actually had and so on. People might say you are just the

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same as them. No, on principle issues and the issues I am raising

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now, I raise them even when I was in the ANC. Those who have followed my

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politics would never say, he only follows that principle because he is

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outside the ANC stuck white but you are a member of the elite yourself

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is the point I am making? Do you except you are a member of the

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Legion that maintain to? I am a Member of Parliament -- taint you?

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You make 1400 US dollars per month. I do not make as little as those on

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the lowest income. I was not saying you should do that, but as the

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leader of a party that professes to stand up for the rights of the

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dispossessed and the poor, should you be buying a house in the richest

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part of Johannesburg? Should you also have a Mercedes car? Andrew on

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point engineering -- and through on point engineering, where you were

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accused of unduly benefiting to the tune of a few 100 thousand dollars?

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You are subject to the same criticisms that you are making about

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the elite. All I am saying is that what I am fighting for is not the

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same. The state intervention into the living conditions of our people

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present opportunities to all and the outcomes should be almost the same.

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Let people choose where they want to stay. There must not be a deliberate

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economic desire to exclude certain people and make them stay in the

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camps. I want to live where I want to live, in a rich place or not. But

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is it a good symbol? It doesn't undermine what I represent to. I

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represent the ability of black people to emerge out of a difficult

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past and be able to settle wherever they want to settle. And it must be

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a matter of choice. It must not be that this is the exclusive area for

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the white elite, it is incorrect. And those things you are pointing

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at, they were all before the court of law, and none of those things

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have stood the test of time. They have all failed. Those who accuse me

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knew the case against me was concocted. They conspired to

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discredit me. But the national prosecuting Authority spokesman

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said, this was not an acquittal, the matter was struck off the roll, the

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Department of Public prosecutions can be approached to reinstate the

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matter, he said that an August 2015. Are you worried? I am not worried, I

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am a free man. You must replay what the judge said to me when you drop

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the charges, he said to me Julius Malema, you are a free man and I am

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a free man up until they bring new charges against me, I am a free man

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fighting for the people of South Africa, the black majority and

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Africans in particular to tell me where they want to live, to go to

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school where they want and to participate effectively in the

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economy of South Africa. Do I still have a political conscience and off

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to fight for the port of the poorest? My political conscience is

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clear. I am fighting for the poor. I'm not fighting for me, I am

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fighting for those people and I am not pretentious when I say that, I'm

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doing it legitimately and generally. Briefly and finally, the

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poorest of the port include many young South Africans, 25-40% of the

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figure for the unemployed. This should be your natural

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constituencies but these youngsters don't vote. We are engaged in a

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programme to mobilize young people to register in their numbers. The

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EFF is the only party that is focused on fighting youth apathy

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when it comes to politics. We brought excitement, we brought the

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necessary image to politics in South Africa and we are confident that

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come next year, the majority of young people will register to vote

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for the Economic Freedom Fighters. Julius Malema, thank you for coming

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on HARDtalk. Thank you.

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