David Adjaye - Architect HARDtalk


David Adjaye - Architect

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Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah Montague. What difference can the

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design of a building make? Can architecture inspire people to think

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differently? Perhaps even to behave differently Herston mark my guest is

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one of the most sought-after architects in the world today. Among

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his many buildings, the Nobel Peace Center in Oslo, a business school in

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Moscow, a shopping centre in Lagos, a housing project in New York's

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Harlem, and about to open, his biggest project yet. The National

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Museum of African American History and Culture sitting right on the

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national in Washington. Has David Adjaye got it right? What is the

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test of a good building? David Adjaye, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. Given the history of this project, the National Museum of

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African American History and Culture, and its location, is it the

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biggest professional challenge you have faced questioning yes, I would

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say so, no doubt, it's been an eight-year journey this year so it's

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been the biggest project I've ever on. 84 U but the first time this

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museum was mooted was 100 years ago -- eight years for you. Absolutely,

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it's been a long time coming. The director of the museum said no

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matter what you do this world be the thing you will be most known for.

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Highly likely. I can't question that. Here we are a few months from

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its opening, it's almost complete now. It's almost complete, it opens

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in September this year. Are you where you want to be, are you in a

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position where you think this is what I envisage, this is what I

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wanted to do? I couldn't be more thrilled. When I go to Washington

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now, the site has been opened and the city can see it, the gardens

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have been planted, apart from the snow, that has taken them down, but

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the site has been planted, it is there, you can see the presence and

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the relationships we worked on for many months and years suddenly makes

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sense. We're very excited. When do you decide if it's been a success?

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When people walk in and start using it the way we think they would enjoy

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it. If that happens and if they make new discoveries that add to the

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qualities we imagine then we know it's a success. It could yet prove a

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failure? Absolutely. But I doubt it. And in terms of its reception,

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when the reviews come in and people said... We can't do anything about

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reviews, some people will love it and some people will find it

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difficult. It's a building that's not background. It's really

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something that makes a statement about where America is right now. In

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the world where we live where issues about how our cities are made up of

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different diversities and groups from different ethnicities, this

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project goes straight to that sort of discussion because it talks about

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the nature of America and how its communities are brought together.

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And it talks about a very important community who were used for commerce

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to make America who feel they have been sidelined and who now have a

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place on the national wall rightfully. It is on the national

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wall surrounded by neoclassical buildings. Absolutely. Which is why

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Robert Stern, Dean Addy of School of architecture, said it didn't have a

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strong lectureship for them. Some would say it is good but maybe it's

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not the best thing. I know Robert. I admire him because I think he's a

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great thinker. What he's not realising is we're not making

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architecture that is magnetic. We didn't want to mimic the

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neoclassical architecture around but we wanted clues from it. I would

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argue it has a podium. It sits on it. It has symmetrical facades, it

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is for sites that are symmetrical, things of the classical language. It

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refers to the Washington monument, there's an obelisk that refers to

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Egyptian architecture, not just grit, which is what Robert refers

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to. It's unpacking that Washington is much more complicated than the

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Greek neoclassical language, it embraces and goes back to the

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beginnings of the origins of architecture in terms of Egypt's

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history and its influence on what becomes European, classical

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architecture, but it talks about modern architecture and those

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relationships. A black American going to that building feels what?

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What does it make them feel and think? I think knowing that building

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is there next them feel they are very much part of this nation, they

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are very much part of the nation. You could put anything there for

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that. When you were designing it what did you think it would do?

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Architecture sadly is silent, it relies on people engaging and

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understanding it. The building doesn't have a message. When the

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first person saw a classical building they didn't think it was a

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temple, they were told so, they were told it is a place of worship. It

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has a powerful story. It talks about the story of the African-American

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community and the reference is made in terms of performance. It's not an

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arbitrary functional form. It's a functional device, it's a corona

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which creates the first environmental leads building on the

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Washington more, so highly sustainable, but it looks at the

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geography of an African heritage which was to look at the sculpture

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of the shrine houses of the group, which is where... In that part of

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West Africa a lot of the African-American community came from

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that, using DNA tracking, we know that a large part of that community

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came from that. I wanted to make a slightly romantic reference to the

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long history of this community, not just the American history but to say

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they came from Africa, they cross the ocean, they came to America, but

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the details of the building aren't specifically African, its hybrid.

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The details are ones that look at the work of the African-American

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slaves, the ironwork in Charleston, Louisiana, taking the classical

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language and working with it and I love that. You designed this but you

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aren't American. Not at all. Even the director of the museum

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acknowledged a lot of people felt it had to be designed by a black person

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but specifically an African American. What's been the reaction

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to the fact that here you are, born in Tanzania, but you are largely

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British. Yeah. I think that I applaud the jury for taking me

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because I think the African-American story is really a story of black

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modernity. If you really is an explosion were black culture is

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embedded deep in white culture, but then has to develop really fast in

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the 20th century, 19th century to have its own identities. But some

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people will say, look, what about using an American? After all, isn't

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it a continuing part of the problem of exclusion? I would say that it is

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really a shame that at this stage, even at that stage eight years ago I

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was probably one of the few prominent architects of colour that

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had actually risen through the ranks and won competitions and not just

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been handed work because of my colour. I wonder international

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competitions against the field and have built my reputation and build

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my name through my work. -- I won. What they found was I had risen to a

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point where I could demonstrate the capacity to do that work, to do such

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a project of such complexity, and, you know, I would not have any sense

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of... Sort of, lack of empathy for the subject. I think in

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architecture, it's difficult to say a person from the ethnic country, or

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the national country, has to be the person that designs it. Architecture

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is very migratory. Looking at Saint Petersburg, it was built by

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Italians. The world is much more complicated than national

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boundaries. Let's look ABBA, Purdue centre in Paris, built by rogers. He

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said of that, it's a very powerful moment when he built something of

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such huge significance, which this is to America. It does crazy things

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to your career when you kind of mushroom and it creates

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complexities, and you must be so aware of that now. Good and bad.

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Yes, it conflates and expands things, it allows you to have access

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to things like this. Who would have thought I would have been here

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talking to you on HARDtalk? At the same time it is also a tough subject

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because it is when architecture gets into the public psyche the way

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normal architecture within libraries and schools don't come up to that

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plateau. You're dealing with political issues, and I'm talking

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about politics with you when I'm really an architect. Let's talk

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about politics and library because you are one of the front runners for

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one of Barack Obama's... I am in the short list of seven to do the

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studies, yes. The presidential library to be built in Chicago. Can

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you do it not being an American? I think the shortlist said it doesn't

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have to be an American, it recognises architecture is an

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international universal language of our civilisation and humanity and

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there are three foreigners on the list. That is a big statement,

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anyone can do it if you have the talent. You talk about the new

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language we need in public buildings. People typically look

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back when they should be looking forward? I don't mind looking back,

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it's important and you need to learn lessons. But architecture has for so

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long been embedded in codes in the way we want to create exclusions or

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separations. We are in a century where we have finally begun to

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become embedded towards our planet and other species' relationship with

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it. I think it makes us responsible stewards to make things on the

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planet which have agency in terms of understanding exactly where they

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are, their geography and context, but also acknowledging the state of

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the people at the time. I mean their democratic ideals, their beliefs

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about what the future should be. I think architecture can harness those

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lessons and actually exemplify and embody those

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things. A complete contrast, let's go to Rwanda, you are building a

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Jordan Owens hospital south of Kigali. A rather different project,

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and the first of its kind in Africa -- Children's Hospital. The whole

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continent. Cancer is a major problem of the 20th

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love what President Obama said in his State of the

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let's try to get rid of cancer, it would be extraordinary. But here we

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Dubai, Singapore, the US or Europe. If you can't for

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it? In a way, the funding of this... It is part the US and also African

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investors, but it's a global investment that recognises this is

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important and it needs to happen. The site that has been chosen is

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Rwanda because it is centrally located in terms of the continent,

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it has enough infrastructure to support it. It's also not just a

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hospital, it is a training sector for other doctors in the region to

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use it as a place to get expertise. You approach a design like that and

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you think differently in terms of everything, not least what you can

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afford. Absolutely. In Rwanda we think about architecture that needs

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to It's right in the heart of the

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tropical forest of Africa, the dense part where the river networks are.

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It's humid. It hospital anywhere else. It's talking

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about cancer care, so it has to have inspiration.

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have to be uplifted and some of the great projects that have looked at

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back to nature. The idea of reconnecting people to the

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environment but also making an environmental response that Shields

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and shades, doesn't create an alien object, also some of the

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want to work through in the project for that. The geometry you see on

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the skin of the building and the way that it is organised is based on

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understanding Rwandan vernacular architecture, the patterns women

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make with John retreat to adorn their buildings. We want to use

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computer technology to turn them into shading devices and devices to

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screen the building. Are you suggesting that the building is part

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of the treatment? People can get better if they are in a good

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building? I completely believe it. The quality of the built environment

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can inspire a person to feel better about themselves, which encourages

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thereby the two feel better. It's down to aesthetics? It is emotional

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and aesthetics. It's how... Is not so much about aesthetics, is it

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tastefully done or not, is there a certain integrity that makes you

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feel comfortable and gives you a sense of well-being and comfort? And

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an ability to be inspired by the environment. In the end architecture

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is a series of environments to inspire us I believe. Can it do

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more? In a sense what you are trying to do with the museum in Washington

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is get people to think. It is almost an intellectual exercise. What about

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the way they behave? There has been a great deal of focus, not least by

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David Cameron, a couple of weeks ago suggesting he wants to transform 100

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housing estates across the country, and he talks about a warm family

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home, you open the door and you are confronted by a warm family home,

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you open the door and you are confronted by to criminals and drug

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dealers. These places design in crime rather than Afful stop that is

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a great misunderstanding. It is not the conflict creating criminals.

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Many will be people live in concrete buildings. I wealthy people also

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criminals? Japan has more concrete buildings than anywhere else and is

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part of the highest elite. Switzerland built in concrete.

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Concrete is a great material. It is a question of investment and

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support. With housing, post-war architects had to build housing

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quickly because we had a serious war that everyone had come through, no

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housing, it had to be done quickly. We didn't learn from the lessons of

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the past and build in networks and infrastructure supporting dance

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communities. You can't have a tower in a field of grass with no support,

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no shops, no infrastructure. You cannot rule these buildings without

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looking after them. It is not the building. If he goes ahead with

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this, does this regeneration, that's not going to make a difference? If

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you look at Sheffield, Parkhill estate, which is very famous, which

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everyone thought was a bunker, they have refurbished it, very elegant,

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and it is one of the most desirable places in Sheffield. It is about

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modernising buildings. When your fridge is out of date, you don't

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keep it because... You update it. You need love and maintenance. You

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accept what he is saying? Yes. They say that the riots in 2011, three

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quarters of those lived in the state. That is to do with poverty.

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Slums are part of that. Think of the Victorian slums. Aces -- places

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where poverty was rife. It is about making them sustainable and creating

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this support that deals with that. Even the Joseph Rowntree foundation

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charity says it is true that poor housing can keep people in poverty.

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That is the point. Run down estates. That is the point. You would say to

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keep the buildings, give their maintenance and care but you are

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putting something alongside them? Improve them. Use solar energy.

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Putting infrastructure to support the community. What in a doctors

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surgery, infrastructure to support high-density communities. This is

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not correct. If he is said to you to redesign? Happily. We have many

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strategies. A lot of architects know what to do. What has happened is we

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have left these communities and we haven't invested in them. What would

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David Adjaye 's redesign housing estate do for crime in the area and

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possibly poverty? How far can you claim to make a difference? I think

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that people very much reflect... A thesis is which says that if your

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environment feels poor and downtrodden, you will feel

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aggressive and no empathy towards it. If your environment is well

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invested in and looks as if it supports communities, different age

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groups and communities, it is harder to vandalise and go against it.

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There are many examples to prove that is the case. Someone approaches

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you and you say what? Is it down to the money? Give me this money and I

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can do it... Make the analysis of these estates, analyse them, see

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what needs to be done. Sometimes materials invented in their 50s are

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no longer healthy. Take them out. It happens with all buildings. You have

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to improve them. You add infrastructure. With housing estates

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it is critical to support them with the right kind of community support

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so that they are places for all age groups, for all kind of diversity

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and walks of life. We mustn't turn them into ghettos. Are they not

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already? They are not. They are ghettoised. If you got your hands on

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it it could still end up being a brutal high-rise tower but because

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of what else you adding to it you change it? You adding -- add

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support, yes, some materials will be worn out and you redo those. What do

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you think of David Cameron? He is absolutely right that there is crime

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in these places but the answer is not to bulldoze the architecture and

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see what support is needed and I say that because of the sustainability

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argument. I don't think we should trash buildings and take them down

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and blame them for problems. I think we should analyse things, look at

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the evidence and see how we can change those conditions. Listening

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to you I am reminded of one of your critics who described you as

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allowing your eloquence to run away with you. OK. The criticism has been

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made of the buildings as well. Roland Moore, critic at the Observer

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has said there is a tendency for the story to outrun the realisation. He

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was speaking about Whitechapel library. The public library. Yes.

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What we were doing when we were looking at the library was to

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encourage as many people as we could to go to the library. When we built

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it, we found a year later that there were too many people. We were too

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successful. This was one of the criticisms. The entrance always

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worked. The escalator was shut down and people said, that is a

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demonstrated failure. No, it demonstrated the success. The

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building work too well. With the analysis of the conversation it was

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all about how to get people into buildings. It was sad for me for him

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to do that because he knows that community and that it is one of the

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most used libraries in London. You were involved in a project in New

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York which was, described variously as too dark grey. One was offset on

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top of the other. The Guardian called it a blocky concrete citadel.

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It was also called grim, and an arty fortress. When you read that what

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you think? I think critics are absolutely allowed to say what they

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want and I think the idea of architecture is not to make everyone

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happy, especially critics happy. They want to interrogate and check

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things, and I think that is really healthy. I welcomed the discussion.

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If you go to the building and ask them what they love and hate about

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it, no that is a problem. The community

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chose the colour. designed with bamboo floors,

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environmental systems, they have a creche for 145 kids, they have

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by buildings. What are you listening for? How people are listening for,

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the patterns and to see where we have made mistakes -- I stalk my

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buildings. What do you hope to hear when you eavesdrop on passers-by?

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The happiness and joy in the environment it has created. That it

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is contributing to the better way of life. You are in a mixed ordinary

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position. You have commissions from all over the world. You are

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influencing public life, effectively. And yet the year that

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you were asked to do the Smithsonian Museum in Washington was the year

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your That was a remarkable turnaround.

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Thank you. It was the toughest time of my life. I was trained as an

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architect, not a businessman. I have had to learn the business of running

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100 people my own way. have an MBA. I did not know how to

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do business. You could not be in that situation a

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infrastructure that would help us not to get into that situation

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naively -- again? I got into that situation naively because I won a

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lot of competitions and I comes to you and says I want you to

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build one of the taller skyscrapers. Would you do it? I would not be

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contributing to how it can be an exemplar and how to use energy

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efficiently than yes -- aesthetics. I am not interested in it as a

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brooch or a badge. There is a fashion for very high rise. There

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are a lot of architects who love doing that but it is not what I am

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interested in. I'll am interested in architecture that is beating to

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humanity -- I'm. Dealing with overcrowding in cities. Cities will

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grow more than 50% of living in cities and it will grow

:24:03.:24:03.

even more in 15 years. There will be 41 mega cities around the world with

:24:04.:24:12.

over 10 million people. We have to have solutions. It won't be about

:24:13.:24:17.

countryside villas. It will be density and infrastructure and

:24:18.:24:48.

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