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Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah Montague. What difference can the | :00:00. | :00:19. | |
design of a building make? Can architecture inspire people to think | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
differently? Perhaps even to behave differently Herston mark my guest is | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
one of the most sought-after architects in the world today. Among | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
his many buildings, the Nobel Peace Center in Oslo, a business school in | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
Moscow, a shopping centre in Lagos, a housing project in New York's | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
Harlem, and about to open, his biggest project yet. The National | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
Museum of African American History and Culture sitting right on the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
national in Washington. Has David Adjaye got it right? What is the | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
test of a good building? David Adjaye, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:57. | :01:32. | |
Thank you. Given the history of this project, the National Museum of | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
African American History and Culture, and its location, is it the | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
biggest professional challenge you have faced questioning yes, I would | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
say so, no doubt, it's been an eight-year journey this year so it's | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
been the biggest project I've ever on. 84 U but the first time this | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
museum was mooted was 100 years ago -- eight years for you. Absolutely, | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
it's been a long time coming. The director of the museum said no | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
matter what you do this world be the thing you will be most known for. | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
Highly likely. I can't question that. Here we are a few months from | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
its opening, it's almost complete now. It's almost complete, it opens | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
in September this year. Are you where you want to be, are you in a | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
position where you think this is what I envisage, this is what I | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
wanted to do? I couldn't be more thrilled. When I go to Washington | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
now, the site has been opened and the city can see it, the gardens | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
have been planted, apart from the snow, that has taken them down, but | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
the site has been planted, it is there, you can see the presence and | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
the relationships we worked on for many months and years suddenly makes | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
sense. We're very excited. When do you decide if it's been a success? | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
When people walk in and start using it the way we think they would enjoy | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
it. If that happens and if they make new discoveries that add to the | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
qualities we imagine then we know it's a success. It could yet prove a | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
failure? Absolutely. But I doubt it. And in terms of its reception, | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
when the reviews come in and people said... We can't do anything about | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
reviews, some people will love it and some people will find it | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
difficult. It's a building that's not background. It's really | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
something that makes a statement about where America is right now. In | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
the world where we live where issues about how our cities are made up of | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
different diversities and groups from different ethnicities, this | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
project goes straight to that sort of discussion because it talks about | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
the nature of America and how its communities are brought together. | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
And it talks about a very important community who were used for commerce | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
to make America who feel they have been sidelined and who now have a | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
place on the national wall rightfully. It is on the national | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
wall surrounded by neoclassical buildings. Absolutely. Which is why | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Robert Stern, Dean Addy of School of architecture, said it didn't have a | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
strong lectureship for them. Some would say it is good but maybe it's | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
not the best thing. I know Robert. I admire him because I think he's a | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
great thinker. What he's not realising is we're not making | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
architecture that is magnetic. We didn't want to mimic the | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
neoclassical architecture around but we wanted clues from it. I would | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
argue it has a podium. It sits on it. It has symmetrical facades, it | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
is for sites that are symmetrical, things of the classical language. It | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
refers to the Washington monument, there's an obelisk that refers to | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
Egyptian architecture, not just grit, which is what Robert refers | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
to. It's unpacking that Washington is much more complicated than the | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
Greek neoclassical language, it embraces and goes back to the | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
beginnings of the origins of architecture in terms of Egypt's | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
history and its influence on what becomes European, classical | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
architecture, but it talks about modern architecture and those | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
relationships. A black American going to that building feels what? | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
What does it make them feel and think? I think knowing that building | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
is there next them feel they are very much part of this nation, they | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
are very much part of the nation. You could put anything there for | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
that. When you were designing it what did you think it would do? | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
Architecture sadly is silent, it relies on people engaging and | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
understanding it. The building doesn't have a message. When the | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
first person saw a classical building they didn't think it was a | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
temple, they were told so, they were told it is a place of worship. It | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
has a powerful story. It talks about the story of the African-American | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
community and the reference is made in terms of performance. It's not an | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
arbitrary functional form. It's a functional device, it's a corona | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
which creates the first environmental leads building on the | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
Washington more, so highly sustainable, but it looks at the | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
geography of an African heritage which was to look at the sculpture | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
of the shrine houses of the group, which is where... In that part of | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
West Africa a lot of the African-American community came from | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
that, using DNA tracking, we know that a large part of that community | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
came from that. I wanted to make a slightly romantic reference to the | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
long history of this community, not just the American history but to say | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
they came from Africa, they cross the ocean, they came to America, but | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
the details of the building aren't specifically African, its hybrid. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
The details are ones that look at the work of the African-American | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
slaves, the ironwork in Charleston, Louisiana, taking the classical | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
language and working with it and I love that. You designed this but you | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
aren't American. Not at all. Even the director of the museum | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
acknowledged a lot of people felt it had to be designed by a black person | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
but specifically an African American. What's been the reaction | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
to the fact that here you are, born in Tanzania, but you are largely | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
British. Yeah. I think that I applaud the jury for taking me | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
because I think the African-American story is really a story of black | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
modernity. If you really is an explosion were black culture is | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
embedded deep in white culture, but then has to develop really fast in | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
the 20th century, 19th century to have its own identities. But some | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
people will say, look, what about using an American? After all, isn't | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
it a continuing part of the problem of exclusion? I would say that it is | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
really a shame that at this stage, even at that stage eight years ago I | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
was probably one of the few prominent architects of colour that | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
had actually risen through the ranks and won competitions and not just | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
been handed work because of my colour. I wonder international | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
competitions against the field and have built my reputation and build | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
my name through my work. -- I won. What they found was I had risen to a | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
point where I could demonstrate the capacity to do that work, to do such | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
a project of such complexity, and, you know, I would not have any sense | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
of... Sort of, lack of empathy for the subject. I think in | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
architecture, it's difficult to say a person from the ethnic country, or | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
the national country, has to be the person that designs it. Architecture | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
is very migratory. Looking at Saint Petersburg, it was built by | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
Italians. The world is much more complicated than national | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
boundaries. Let's look ABBA, Purdue centre in Paris, built by rogers. He | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
said of that, it's a very powerful moment when he built something of | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
such huge significance, which this is to America. It does crazy things | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
to your career when you kind of mushroom and it creates | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
complexities, and you must be so aware of that now. Good and bad. | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
Yes, it conflates and expands things, it allows you to have access | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
to things like this. Who would have thought I would have been here | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
talking to you on HARDtalk? At the same time it is also a tough subject | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
because it is when architecture gets into the public psyche the way | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
normal architecture within libraries and schools don't come up to that | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
plateau. You're dealing with political issues, and I'm talking | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
about politics with you when I'm really an architect. Let's talk | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
about politics and library because you are one of the front runners for | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
one of Barack Obama's... I am in the short list of seven to do the | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
studies, yes. The presidential library to be built in Chicago. Can | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
you do it not being an American? I think the shortlist said it doesn't | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
have to be an American, it recognises architecture is an | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
international universal language of our civilisation and humanity and | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
there are three foreigners on the list. That is a big statement, | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
anyone can do it if you have the talent. You talk about the new | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
language we need in public buildings. People typically look | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
back when they should be looking forward? I don't mind looking back, | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
it's important and you need to learn lessons. But architecture has for so | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
long been embedded in codes in the way we want to create exclusions or | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
separations. We are in a century where we have finally begun to | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
become embedded towards our planet and other species' relationship with | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
it. I think it makes us responsible stewards to make things on the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
planet which have agency in terms of understanding exactly where they | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
are, their geography and context, but also acknowledging the state of | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
the people at the time. I mean their democratic ideals, their beliefs | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
about what the future should be. I think architecture can harness those | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
lessons and actually exemplify and embody those | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
things. A complete contrast, let's go to Rwanda, you are building a | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Jordan Owens hospital south of Kigali. A rather different project, | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
and the first of its kind in Africa -- Children's Hospital. The whole | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
continent. Cancer is a major problem of the 20th | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
love what President Obama said in his State of the | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
let's try to get rid of cancer, it would be extraordinary. But here we | :11:33. | :11:41. | |
Dubai, Singapore, the US or Europe. If you can't for | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
it? In a way, the funding of this... It is part the US and also African | :11:47. | :11:54. | |
investors, but it's a global investment that recognises this is | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
important and it needs to happen. The site that has been chosen is | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
Rwanda because it is centrally located in terms of the continent, | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
it has enough infrastructure to support it. It's also not just a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
hospital, it is a training sector for other doctors in the region to | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
use it as a place to get expertise. You approach a design like that and | :12:13. | :12:13. | |
you think differently in terms of everything, not least what you can | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
afford. Absolutely. In Rwanda we think about architecture that needs | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
to It's right in the heart of the | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
tropical forest of Africa, the dense part where the river networks are. | :12:30. | :12:31. | |
It's humid. It hospital anywhere else. It's talking | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
about cancer care, so it has to have inspiration. | :12:40. | :12:40. | |
have to be uplifted and some of the great projects that have looked at | :12:41. | :12:55. | |
back to nature. The idea of reconnecting people to the | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
environment but also making an environmental response that Shields | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
and shades, doesn't create an alien object, also some of the | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
want to work through in the project for that. The geometry you see on | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
the skin of the building and the way that it is organised is based on | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
understanding Rwandan vernacular architecture, the patterns women | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
make with John retreat to adorn their buildings. We want to use | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
computer technology to turn them into shading devices and devices to | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
screen the building. Are you suggesting that the building is part | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
of the treatment? People can get better if they are in a good | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
building? I completely believe it. The quality of the built environment | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
can inspire a person to feel better about themselves, which encourages | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
thereby the two feel better. It's down to aesthetics? It is emotional | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
and aesthetics. It's how... Is not so much about aesthetics, is it | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
tastefully done or not, is there a certain integrity that makes you | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
feel comfortable and gives you a sense of well-being and comfort? And | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
an ability to be inspired by the environment. In the end architecture | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
is a series of environments to inspire us I believe. Can it do | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
more? In a sense what you are trying to do with the museum in Washington | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
is get people to think. It is almost an intellectual exercise. What about | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
the way they behave? There has been a great deal of focus, not least by | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
David Cameron, a couple of weeks ago suggesting he wants to transform 100 | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
housing estates across the country, and he talks about a warm family | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
home, you open the door and you are confronted by a warm family home, | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
you open the door and you are confronted by to criminals and drug | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
dealers. These places design in crime rather than Afful stop that is | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
a great misunderstanding. It is not the conflict creating criminals. | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
Many will be people live in concrete buildings. I wealthy people also | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
criminals? Japan has more concrete buildings than anywhere else and is | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
part of the highest elite. Switzerland built in concrete. | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
Concrete is a great material. It is a question of investment and | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
support. With housing, post-war architects had to build housing | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
quickly because we had a serious war that everyone had come through, no | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
housing, it had to be done quickly. We didn't learn from the lessons of | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
the past and build in networks and infrastructure supporting dance | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
communities. You can't have a tower in a field of grass with no support, | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
no shops, no infrastructure. You cannot rule these buildings without | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
looking after them. It is not the building. If he goes ahead with | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
this, does this regeneration, that's not going to make a difference? If | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
you look at Sheffield, Parkhill estate, which is very famous, which | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
everyone thought was a bunker, they have refurbished it, very elegant, | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
and it is one of the most desirable places in Sheffield. It is about | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
modernising buildings. When your fridge is out of date, you don't | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
keep it because... You update it. You need love and maintenance. You | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
accept what he is saying? Yes. They say that the riots in 2011, three | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
quarters of those lived in the state. That is to do with poverty. | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
Slums are part of that. Think of the Victorian slums. Aces -- places | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
where poverty was rife. It is about making them sustainable and creating | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
this support that deals with that. Even the Joseph Rowntree foundation | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
charity says it is true that poor housing can keep people in poverty. | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
That is the point. Run down estates. That is the point. You would say to | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
keep the buildings, give their maintenance and care but you are | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
putting something alongside them? Improve them. Use solar energy. | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
Putting infrastructure to support the community. What in a doctors | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
surgery, infrastructure to support high-density communities. This is | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
not correct. If he is said to you to redesign? Happily. We have many | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
strategies. A lot of architects know what to do. What has happened is we | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
have left these communities and we haven't invested in them. What would | :17:37. | :17:46. | |
David Adjaye 's redesign housing estate do for crime in the area and | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
possibly poverty? How far can you claim to make a difference? I think | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
that people very much reflect... A thesis is which says that if your | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
environment feels poor and downtrodden, you will feel | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
aggressive and no empathy towards it. If your environment is well | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
invested in and looks as if it supports communities, different age | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
groups and communities, it is harder to vandalise and go against it. | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
There are many examples to prove that is the case. Someone approaches | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
you and you say what? Is it down to the money? Give me this money and I | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
can do it... Make the analysis of these estates, analyse them, see | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
what needs to be done. Sometimes materials invented in their 50s are | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
no longer healthy. Take them out. It happens with all buildings. You have | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
to improve them. You add infrastructure. With housing estates | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
it is critical to support them with the right kind of community support | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
so that they are places for all age groups, for all kind of diversity | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
and walks of life. We mustn't turn them into ghettos. Are they not | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
already? They are not. They are ghettoised. If you got your hands on | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
it it could still end up being a brutal high-rise tower but because | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
of what else you adding to it you change it? You adding -- add | :19:14. | :19:22. | |
support, yes, some materials will be worn out and you redo those. What do | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
you think of David Cameron? He is absolutely right that there is crime | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
in these places but the answer is not to bulldoze the architecture and | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
see what support is needed and I say that because of the sustainability | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
argument. I don't think we should trash buildings and take them down | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
and blame them for problems. I think we should analyse things, look at | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
the evidence and see how we can change those conditions. Listening | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
to you I am reminded of one of your critics who described you as | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
allowing your eloquence to run away with you. OK. The criticism has been | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
made of the buildings as well. Roland Moore, critic at the Observer | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
has said there is a tendency for the story to outrun the realisation. He | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
was speaking about Whitechapel library. The public library. Yes. | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
What we were doing when we were looking at the library was to | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
encourage as many people as we could to go to the library. When we built | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
it, we found a year later that there were too many people. We were too | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
successful. This was one of the criticisms. The entrance always | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
worked. The escalator was shut down and people said, that is a | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
demonstrated failure. No, it demonstrated the success. The | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
building work too well. With the analysis of the conversation it was | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
all about how to get people into buildings. It was sad for me for him | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
to do that because he knows that community and that it is one of the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
most used libraries in London. You were involved in a project in New | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
York which was, described variously as too dark grey. One was offset on | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
top of the other. The Guardian called it a blocky concrete citadel. | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
It was also called grim, and an arty fortress. When you read that what | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
you think? I think critics are absolutely allowed to say what they | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
want and I think the idea of architecture is not to make everyone | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
happy, especially critics happy. They want to interrogate and check | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
things, and I think that is really healthy. I welcomed the discussion. | :21:38. | :21:47. | |
If you go to the building and ask them what they love and hate about | :21:48. | :21:48. | |
it, no that is a problem. The community | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
chose the colour. designed with bamboo floors, | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
environmental systems, they have a creche for 145 kids, they have | :22:00. | :22:10. | |
by buildings. What are you listening for? How people are listening for, | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
the patterns and to see where we have made mistakes -- I stalk my | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
buildings. What do you hope to hear when you eavesdrop on passers-by? | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
The happiness and joy in the environment it has created. That it | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
is contributing to the better way of life. You are in a mixed ordinary | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
position. You have commissions from all over the world. You are | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
influencing public life, effectively. And yet the year that | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
you were asked to do the Smithsonian Museum in Washington was the year | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
your That was a remarkable turnaround. | :22:44. | :22:51. | |
Thank you. It was the toughest time of my life. I was trained as an | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
architect, not a businessman. I have had to learn the business of running | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
100 people my own way. have an MBA. I did not know how to | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
do business. You could not be in that situation a | :23:06. | :23:05. | |
infrastructure that would help us not to get into that situation | :23:06. | :23:17. | |
naively -- again? I got into that situation naively because I won a | :23:18. | :23:18. | |
lot of competitions and I comes to you and says I want you to | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
build one of the taller skyscrapers. Would you do it? I would not be | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
contributing to how it can be an exemplar and how to use energy | :23:30. | :23:40. | |
efficiently than yes -- aesthetics. I am not interested in it as a | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
brooch or a badge. There is a fashion for very high rise. There | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
are a lot of architects who love doing that but it is not what I am | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
interested in. I'll am interested in architecture that is beating to | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
humanity -- I'm. Dealing with overcrowding in cities. Cities will | :24:01. | :24:02. | |
grow more than 50% of living in cities and it will grow | :24:03. | :24:03. | |
even more in 15 years. There will be 41 mega cities around the world with | :24:04. | :24:12. | |
over 10 million people. We have to have solutions. It won't be about | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
countryside villas. It will be density and infrastructure and | :24:18. | :24:48. |