Erna Solberg - Prime Minister of Norway HARDtalk


Erna Solberg - Prime Minister of Norway

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Welcome to HARDTalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.

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Few countries take more seriously their commitment

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to international diplomacy and humanitarianism than Norway.

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So it's perhaps no surprise that Norway is co-hosting a donors'

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conference, here in London, to boost aid for Syria's

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More surprising is the criticism the Norwegian government is itself

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facing for its own stance on migration and asylum issues.

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My guest is Norway's Prime Minister, Erna Solberg - is she putting

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Prime Minister Erna Solberg, welcome to HARDTalk.

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Let's start with the donors' conference that you

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have just arrived in London for, all about Syria.

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The truth is, in 2015, the UN asked for, I think,

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$8 or $9 billion to help the Syrian people.

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Only got, I think, pretty much less than a half of that.

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So, what makes you think this time around you can convince donors

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Hopefully, they will see that if we don't help in the neighbouring

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countries, if we don't get enough help into Syria,

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I think what we have seen the last year is that so many people have

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lost hope in a situation when they are refugees in Turkey,

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in Lebanon, in Jordan, they are losing

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When the children are not allowed to go to school,

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because there is a lack of funding for extra

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classes in those countries, then they will start to move

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because this conflict has gone on too far.

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Interesting new couch all of that in terms of migration,

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It is sort of selfishness you are now appealing to,

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to save Europe from yet more problems with

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I think it's important to say, yes, we have a moral

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People will sometimes say, well, we have done

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this for years and years, how far can it go?

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In this world, today, we are so interconnected.

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If you don't solve problems where they arise, we will have

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So there is always the self-interest, together

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with the altruism, the principles, the need

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Sometimes, you need to appeal to the self interest say,

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you have to use a little bit more of your own tax payer's money

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or else you will have to use your taxpayer's money to help

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The cynic might say that the whole approach you have just outlined is,

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in the end, nothing more than a sticking

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As long as the conflict continues in Syria, one way or another,

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there are going to be, still, hundreds of thousands of people

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suffering, leaving the country and in desperate need of help.

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The real issue, surely, is not so much to just keep putting

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the sticking plasters on, it is to end

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What, if anything, are you doing to help that?

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It's true, all humanitarian aid is a sticking

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It is humanitarian aid, it is not long-term development.

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I think the real focus we should have is on stability.

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If you look at children outside school, I work a lot,

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the Norwegian government works a lot as a priority to get everybody,

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all children in the world, they should

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Education is the biggest development factor, I think,

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Half of those who do not attend school are in conflict areas.

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We know if you are going to reach the sustainable development goals,

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for example to stop hunger, or to eradicate poverty like most

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of the heads of nations have said yes to,

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this autumn in New York, we have to do something

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But you can't say that you only are dealing with this.

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You have also to do something about the humanitarian situation.

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You are co-hosting this donor conference

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You're going to cast your beady eye around the room,

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you're going to have representatives there from European countries,

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from the United States, from the Middle

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East, the rich Middle Eastern countries as well, to whom would

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you look and say, brutally, honestly,

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There are a lot of countries that have not

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They are doing a lot on the military side,

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but if you compare to a lot of other countries in Europe,

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they have not donated as much to the humanitarian aid as some

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What about the rich countries in the Middle East?

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Per capita, they are the largest donor to the Syrian

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But of course the Saudis, the Emirates, all of those should

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participate more in the years to come.

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And, if I may say so, there is good old Norway?

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Representing an oil country, I know that everybody has

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Well, you also know you have a sovereign law

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fund that is worth not so far short of 1 trillion US dollars.

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You have one of the wealthiest countries of the world per capita.

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Bob Geldof, the humanitarian, the activist, the musician,

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he came out with a memorable phrase recently, he was

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talking about Norway and the fact you have only agreed to take,

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I think, 8000 Syrian refugees over three years.

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He said that is just not good enough.

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Norwegians should realise that they have been handed

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the golden ticket in life and they should look

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But that means that he does not know what the Norwegian refugee

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We are taking 8,000 UNHCR refugees over three years.

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Britain has taken 20,000 UNHCR refugees over five years.

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So, comparably, we do a little bit more.

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And we have 31,000 asylum seekers who came last autumn.

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So, the influx of people coming from the conflict area is much

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This is where your government enters very controversial waters,

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in particular in the autumn of last year, at least 5000 migrants entered

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Norway, in the far north, across the Russian border.

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You have kept them in centres, facilities, which look a lot

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We have kept them in hotels, we have kept

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them in very different types of facilities.

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I was just looking at the words of one Sudanese guy.

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He said, you know what, it reminds me of the

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treatment I got when I was a human rights activist in Sudan,

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before I managed to get out of the country.

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There is one centre just by the border, where people are put

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before we are supposed to return them back

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But most asylum seekers in Norway, first of all, they get

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They stay in hotels, they stay in very different, good facilities.

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But, on the average, compared to most European countries,

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our reception centres for asylum seekers are on the best side

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You slipped in a very interesting phrase there.

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You said we keep them there before we

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are, quote, supposed to hand them back to Russia.

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Who says you are supposed to hand them back to

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Many people don't believe you should be handing them back to Russia.

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These are people, many of whom have legitimate claims to asylum,

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Why don't you allow them to process their claim inside Norway?

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We decided that we should follow the international regulations

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That means that everybody will have their case looked at.

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What we're doing now is that we are having a shorter type

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of processing than what you would do on a regular

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Let me just tell you, Russia, some of those people that have come

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to Norway, have stayed for a long time in Russia.

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We believe that Russia, for most of those that

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are coming, not all, but most of them, will be

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Let's quote you the words of the UNHCR official Vincent

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He says, we believe Norway is wrong to

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regard Russia as a safe country for people who need protection.

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Well, we believe that, for most of those that

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have come and used the asylum system to seek asylum,

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it will be a safe country because some of them have stayed

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Did you not know that the European Court of

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Human Rights has looked at what Russia has done

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with would-be asylum seekers, deporting them willy-nilly back

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to their home country to face persecution,

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and has concluded that Russia is contravening international

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standards and laws, and that, therefore,

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Norway, by sending these people back to Russia,

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That is why we have a mechanism that says that every case should be

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If you, in the interview with the police, are giving

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indications of your story that says we should look more thoroughly

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into it, that is why we are not sending back everybody -

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because there is an individual approach to all these cases.

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The Bishop of Borg, in your country, said, I am astonished my government

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Human dignity, he said, is being violated.

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We are often criticised on asylum policies.

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All governments have been that in Norway.

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But this isn't just criticism for the sake of it.

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This is a man of the Church saying, morally, much of anything

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else, he is appalled by the stance taken by your government.

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Well, first, we have a broad majority

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behind that policy in our Parliament.

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We have to make sure that we can have a sustainable

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We know that quite a lot of those that come have a need

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for protection, but there is a large number who are now coming who do not

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have a need for protection, and we have to have easy processing.

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We have to make sure we can return people fast,

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because it gives a clear signal back to those countries

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that people are coming from that you should not try to seek asylum.

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Well, Europe has a choice to make about

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Angela Merkel, she talked about Europe

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presenting a smiling face to those who have suffered so much and made

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it across borders into the European Union.

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I think it is because your coalition is dependent upon the support

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of the far-right, populist Progress party.

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In fact, you chose to appoint as Minister for Immigration

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and Integration Sylvi Listhaug, who is

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one of the most extreme opponents of Norway taking immigrants in,

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I think if you look at what our government is doing,

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it is up to high international standards in how

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we are dealing with the asylum process.

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But there is such a large influx to Europe now that we can't

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Norway have had quite liberal policies.

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We say we should be fair, we should be strict,

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but we should always respect the international regulations.

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This is what your Minister of Immigration said last year.

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I think it was just before she got the job.

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Interesting you then chose to appoint her to the job.

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She said, quote, for too long a tyranny

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of kindness has blown over Norway like a nightmare.

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You want to make a major cultural attitudinal shift in your country,

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away from kindness, tolerance, openness -

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which we associate with Norway - to something very different?

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This is rhetoric in a heated political debate.

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She said it and then you appointed her Minister!

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Why did you appoint her Minister of Immigration?

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Because she is a very good politician.

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She's good at handling her business and she has a broad mandate

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from our Parliament about being strict, tightening or asylum

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policies to make sure that people who get the rights to stay in Norway

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are people who are persecuted, who need protection,

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and that we have even better return policies than we have had so far,

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because we need to make sure that those who are using the asylum

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system, in fact, are in need of protection...

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I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you,

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right now, are being driven by the Progress Party,

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They are actively discussing, right now, copying the Danish model

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and confiscating the assets of immigrants over 10,000 kroner.

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They think if they are going to pay their way,

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as long as they are in this country, their assets

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have to be taken, short of wedding rings and things like that.

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No, and the government has said that we will

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Even my Minister of Immigration has said that is not

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My message has been very clear, we will not copy that type of laws.

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But, during the Red-Green Coalition, they made a policy in Norway that

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if you have large incomes before, if you are rich when you come

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and seek asylum, you might not get all of the free benefits

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in the asylum processing system as other people

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That's the same type of system would continue to have.

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Let's just to find some broader thresholds beyond which you will not

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go, because maybe you feel they are immoral, too much.

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You say you won't confiscate assets of

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these people who make it across your borders.

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Would you have tightened up, in a draconian fashion,

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some of the residency rules, the dependency rules.

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You now say anybody who is studying or working as an immigrant

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in Norway will have to wait four years before they have any chance

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of bringing a dependant into the country.

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for discussion, and then the government will decide

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Yes, we believe that we should tighten policies on family

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Because it is one of the pull factors that we have

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for immigration and for using the asylum processing system to get

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That is the message you are giving me, that Norway,

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as a bastion of liberalism in Europe,

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That was the nightmare of kindness and you're not

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Our neighbouring country got 180,000 asylum seekers last year.

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They have now put up a lot of proposals for

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We know that we have to be, in a way, in the same line

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Interesting, so if Denmark goes far to the right,

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No, not all, but on some of them we will follow.

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I think this is the European problem today.

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As long as the European Union system does

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not function well enough, we will all look at each other

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and say, we cannot be the one country that gets

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all the asylum seekers, so we will have to tighten our policies.

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If Europe managed to have more common

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European policies on asylum processing, on how to deal with it

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and can protect its borders, we will be able to...

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Well, that is a very interesting point.

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In fact, have less competition between these

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We should remind our audience, although Norway is not a member

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of the European Union, you are signed up to some of the key

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You're signed up to the Schengen freedom of movement principle.

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Basically, you have open borders, with all your EU

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member state neighbours, but now you have reimposed some

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border controls, as indeed have Denmark and Sweden.

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In your view, speaking as somebody who is associated with the EU,

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but not a member of it, is Schengen, that idea,

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It's not dead, but it needs firmly to be rescued

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if it is going to continue for the future.

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I understand that is also what the Dutch Presidency

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We need to have border control into Greece.

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We need to have a system of registration that starts

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when you are entering the European Union.

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And we need to have a system of redistribution and common

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solidarity on the amount of refugees that come.

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I think the EU started well in September, but the problem

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is that they are not managing to impliment

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the decisions they have already made.

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Do you regret signing up to Schengen?

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It's important to remember, we have hired

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a free passport union between the Nordic countries

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We have a very, very long border with Sweden.

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If we were outside Schengen, and Sweden were inside Schengen,

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we would have a border problem, because

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it is so long, it is impossible to control.

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We have had this freedom between the Nordic countries,

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Well, you know, that might be coming to an end?

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Well, these days, we do have, between Denmark and Sweden,

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Norway only has border control on the ferries

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that we have from Denmark and Germany.

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That is because Sweden and Denmark is having

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border controls and because they are doing that,

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of course, the influx these days are a little bit,

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well, not just a little bit, they are much smaller

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Let me redirect our debate a little bit.

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It's fascinating that you are in London right now,

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as the UK wrestles with this question of

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whether to stay in or leave the European Union.

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We expect the referendum may come as early as June this year.

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Here is what the leader of your Centre Party,

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not your party, but another party in Norway,

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said to the Sun newspaper in the UK just a few days ago.

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Norway is proof that you can work on your own.

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We rejected EU membership and we have never looked back.

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Do you share that sentiment? No.

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It is important to remember that the Centre Party is also

:18:32.:18:33.

But we should just say, the EEA Agreement...

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That is where we are members of the single market.

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You're all but members of the EU,

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in an economic sense, because you signed up

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The problem for you is, you have to abide by all the rules

:18:51.:18:54.

of the single market, but you don't have a single

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participatory voice in decision-making.

:18:58.:18:58.

We are a small country, and small countries usually

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have to adapt to what bigger countries do say.

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So you sacrificed your sovereignty, knowingly, and without any sort

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of recompense in terms of a voice at the table?

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I voted in favour of EU membership, the last

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And the Norwegians said you were wrong.

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That is what we are lacking in Norway.

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We are not influencing quite large parts of our laws and regulations

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that will be adapted into Norwegian laws.

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We can say yes and no, we can lobby before it is decided

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on, but we are not participating in the actual

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decision-making, which I think is a very difficult issue

:19:38.:19:39.

But we know that we are benefiting so much from being part

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We are a very small economy, which is very export

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and very international orientated, especially

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That is why it is so important for us to have a common

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But here's the thing, the British advocates of exit,

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they say, look, we can be a little bit

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different from Norway, we like Norway's spirit

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of independence, but, unlike Norway, we won't have to sign up

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to all the rules of the single market to have our full

:20:13.:20:14.

trading relationship with the European Union,

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In fact, the EU, if we were to leave the European Union, the British

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advocates of exit say, the EU would have to trade with us,

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because we'd be their biggest trading partner.

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So we can dictate the terms much better than Norway could.

:20:29.:20:31.

I believe it is very difficult to get away from the fact that,

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for European companies to compete on the same basis,

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they have to be inside the same regulatory framework.

:20:43.:20:46.

If Britain is supposed to be outside the regulatory framework,

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it will be more difficult to have the same system.

:20:49.:20:54.

So, before we became members of the single market,

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we had Norwegian companies being threatened with saying

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they were having dumping prices, getting sanctions against it.

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It's always up to countries to decide themselves.

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I think it's going to be difficult, because Europe is putting up a lot

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The countries around will have to apply to it.

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So the argument is, Britain would have a much stronger

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negotiating hand with the EU, post-exit.

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I believe that the EU is a body that always is good at making

:21:31.:21:38.

So you might get a political agreement, but you cannot get away

:21:39.:21:46.

from the fact that you have to have the same playing field.

:21:47.:21:49.

You have to have the same rules and regulations.

:21:50.:21:51.

If you are outside the EU, you will not sit at

:21:52.:21:54.

I am guessing that if you were Prime Minister

:21:55.:22:04.

of Britain today, not Norway, you would be staying

:22:05.:22:06.

Yes, and I hope that Britain will stay in,

:22:07.:22:09.

because I think it is important for all of us

:22:10.:22:13.

that are market-orientated politicians, who believe

:22:14.:22:15.

that we should have a Europe that is focusing on competitiveness,

:22:16.:22:17.

focusing on creating more wealth for the people,

:22:18.:22:19.

I think it's important to have a country like Britain in.

:22:20.:22:22.

Because sometimes you do oppose some of the federalism

:22:23.:22:24.

I think it would be a loss for Europe if Britain left.

:22:25.:22:31.

So, Britain is like Norway's proxy inside the EU?

:22:32.:22:33.

Before we end, I just want to put one thing to you.

:22:34.:22:36.

We have couched this whole conversation in the context

:22:37.:22:38.

But there is a plunge in the oil price.

:22:39.:22:42.

The oil boom is over, and it seems like it is over

:22:43.:22:45.

That is going to change your economic model completely, isn't it?

:22:46.:22:50.

Well, it means that we need to find new ways of getting our

:22:51.:22:53.

economic growth and securing our wealth in future.

:22:54.:22:58.

Would you agree that you have become over reliant on oil and gas?

:22:59.:23:01.

Our economic basis is too strong on oil and gas.

:23:02.:23:03.

But our budgets and our economic policies are not that,

:23:04.:23:07.

because we have put all of our incomes from the oil and gas

:23:08.:23:10.

sector into our sovereign fund, meaning that we have a buffer,

:23:11.:23:12.

Well, I agree, congratulations, very thrifty.

:23:13.:23:17.

But I notice now you have started to draw

:23:18.:23:19.

down on the sovereign wealth fund for the first time.

:23:20.:23:22.

Which suggests to me that, long-term, you may end

:23:23.:23:24.

But still the sovereign fund is increasing because

:23:25.:23:27.

of what they are getting out of their other investment.

:23:28.:23:30.

But we're not putting more oil money, or

:23:31.:23:32.

When you have $30 a barrel, it is very difficult to get

:23:33.:23:37.

In a word, Norway, per capita, is pretty much

:23:38.:23:44.

one of the top five richest countries in the world today.

:23:45.:23:51.

Will you still be in the top five richest

:23:52.:23:54.

countries in the world ten years from now?

:23:55.:23:56.

We are trying to use the income and our budget to make sure

:23:57.:24:01.

we can diversify our economy, and make sure that we can use a lot

:24:02.:24:04.

of the other resources that Norway has.

:24:05.:24:06.

Not just on people, but also nature, fishery resources.

:24:07.:24:09.

We have very many other strong aspects.

:24:10.:24:12.

Erna Solberg, thank you so much for being on HARDTalk.

:24:13.:24:45.

If you found it a little chilly today, there is good news for

:24:46.:24:50.

tomorrow. It's going to be a little bit milder, but you are going to

:24:51.:24:53.

have to pay for it. It

:24:54.:24:54.

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