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More from me later. First, here is HARDtalk. | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma, is on the | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
ropes. In recent months, he's been dealt low after blow, by the courts, | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
by political opponents, even by erstwhile friends. Only the | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
knee-jerk loyalty of the ANC has saved him from impeachment and | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
disgrace. My guess today is South Africa's Trade Minister, Rob Davies. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
If the president won't jump, does he need to be pushed for the good of | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
South Africa? -- my guest. Rob Davies in Cape Town, welcome to | :00:43. | :01:19. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you very much. Minister, do you feel comfortable | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
serving president whose behaviour has been defined by the | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
Constitutional Court as in violation of your country's Constitution? | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
Well, I think the point I would make is that the Constitutional Court, | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
and indeed the High Court in Gauteng, none of the findings to be | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
made recently have required the president should leave office. They | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
have dealt with other issues and other remedial actions that are | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
required, including the payment of a reasonable portion of what is | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
deemed... No. Yeah, let me stop you right there, Minister. You've just | :02:00. | :02:08. | |
thrown out of red -- a red herring in your first question. He is paid | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
to mean not behaving in line with the Constitution, and my question is | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
simple. Are you comfortable serving a president who is violating the | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
constitution? As I said, there is no legal or constitutional reason for | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
the president to leave office. It becomes a political question. If you | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
look at most of the opposition parties, what they are looking at is | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
not just the removal of President Zuma from office, they are looking | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
at the removal of the African National Congress from its position | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
in government, and I think that's fundamentally what it's about. They | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
are looking for some early exit of the ANC, some movement from | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
government before the expiry of its term in office, which lasts until | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
the end of 2019. Actually what we've got is we've got a functioning | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
government that is continuing to serve the interests of the people, | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
and I'm very happy to continue to serve him. Well, you've just | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
politicised this from the beginning and maybe unit something I don't. | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
Maybe the finance minister is a secret member of the opposition, | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
even though he appears to be a member of the ANC and the | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
government, and I'm mentioning him because he set on the fifth of | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
April, once our actions are seen to being congruent with the | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
constitution, we must know that we've moved away from our duty to | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
serve our people, and we have broken our contract. That's a government | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
minister saying that. Well, I think that, yes, there were findings by | :03:40. | :03:50. | |
the Constitutional Court in regard to the Incanla upgrade issue, and | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
there were prescribed actions, that they appeared process of determining | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
the value of the non- security upgrades and the proportion the | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
president must pay, and that the president must pay it. So I think | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
those were the findings of the Constitutional Court. What I'm | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
saying is that it becomes a political question thereafter what | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
happens to the president, and many of the opposition parties, much of | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
the noise that there is around the need for the president to leave | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
office is not founded... No, I'm sorry. I must come back. It's | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
founded on a desire to try and replace a governing party that has | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
not yet completed its mandate and continues to serve the people of the | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
country. Maybe I'm not asking my question is clearly enough. Let me | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
ask one more time. One of the most important ministers in your | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
government, the Minister that you loyally serve, has basically | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
declared that, in his view, given what the Constitutional Court has | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
said, the president has broken his contract with the people. I'm asking | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
you, do you agree with that or disagree? I think that the minister | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
was actually saying, he was warning us that we cannot operate beyond the | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
bounds of the constitution. We have to operate within the framework of | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
the constitution. The president is way beyond the bounds of the | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
constitution. I think that's a matter of debate and discussion. | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
That's what I'm saying. From a legal and constitutional point of view, | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
there is no reason for the president to leave office. The call and the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
clamour for him to do so is a political clamour, and quite a lot | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
of it is orchestrated by political parties who want to shorten the term | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
of the government. Let's leave aside your constant refrain that this is | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
cooked up by the opposition. Let's remember that the highest | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
Constitutional Court, independent - that's the point of the | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
constitution. And let's reflect on the Incandla scandal. Many people | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
around the world won't know the story that innocence Jacob Zuma said | :06:14. | :06:23. | |
he was refurbishing because of requirements for special pencil | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
cattle on his Raj style estate, an amphitheatre as well. He claimed all | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
this the security purposes, which patented wasn't true, and you are | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
saying it doesn't call into question whether he can be president any | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
more. Well, the remedial action that the public thought was in respect of | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
those features, that the president should pay a reasonable proportion | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
of the cost of those, and that is what the constitutional court has | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
upheld, and that process of determining that, which will be | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
followed within a period of time, overseen by the Constitutional | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
Court, that is the remedy in respect of that particular episode, which, | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
by the way, had other features in it, and the cost overruns, the | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
design of the security features, the way in which it was contracted out - | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
those various departments and government officials and ministers | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
were required to deal with the consequences of that. And indeed | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
they have been subject to criminal investigation. Dynasty, are you in | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
anyway embarrassed by the artist you feel you've had to give to me today, | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
presumably for political reasons -- Minister? I haven't any reason to be | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
embarrassed. I'm telling you the way I look at the situation in South | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
Africa, that we've got a functioning government in place, and there have | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
been some unfortunate incidents. I don't think anyone thinks the | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
Incandla story was something that we were all happy and proud about. But | :08:07. | :08:16. | |
also the president asked for the security upgrades in his house, and | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
certainly there have been some excesses and lapses in our system, | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
but the remedial action has been described by the Public protector | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
and upheld by the Constitutional Court. One thought on a personal | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
level. It was very striking to me that one of Nelson Mandela's | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
greatest friends and fellow strugglers and prisoners, who is now | :08:36. | :08:47. | |
86, who has consistently said, I will not criticise the leadership of | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
the ANC, even if I feel they are going in the wrong direction because | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
they are disloyal. This man Ahmed Kathrada finally said this when he | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
saw what the court ruled. He said, is it asking too much to express the | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
hope that you, Jacob Zuma, of course, will choose the correct way | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
and finally consider stepping down? Now, Ahmed Kathrada is in many ways | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
the living conscience of your movement, the ANC. Did his words | :09:19. | :09:27. | |
give you pause for thought? Well, I think that Ahmed Kathrada is someone | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
that we respect greatly. There have been other voices, Dennis Goldberg | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
among them, also a person that we respect greatly and we revere, and | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
they have been expressing their opinions. They've been expressing | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
their opinions publicly. We have a process in the African National | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
Congress of consulting our branches and our members, but we, actually, | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
the leadership of the ANC, the National executive committee, of | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
which I'm a member, we took the view that the apology of the president, | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
the remedial action that was in place, was a very significant path | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
towards putting right what had gone wrong, and that we didn't consider | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
that the removal of the president was warranted at that particular | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
moment in time, and that's the decision that we took, and that | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
decision we debated and discussed with members of our organisation, | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
including, I believe, that the leadership of the organisation, the | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
top six, will be meeting with some of those revered leaders of hours | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
and discussing with them their views and our views as well. You are a | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
parliamentarian. Obviously Parliament is ultimately the | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
legislative authority, and also the authority when it comes to | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
impeaching a president. You have the opportunity to vote on impeaching | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
Jacob Zuma. I can't think of a more important vote that you might have | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
faced in your entire career. Did you vote? Well, actually I wasn't there. | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
I was on government business elsewhere. It was an opposition | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
motion. I wasn't fair. It was an opposition motion which needed a two | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
thirds majority. It was never going to fly. It was something driven by | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
them and their agenda. We didn't believe it was anything that was | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
warranted, and that was the outcome is well in terms of the vote. I | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
suppose it is, in a way, convenient that you don't have a mark on your | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
record as having said that you actually voted to support Jacob | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
Zuma. You were, rather conveniently, away from the chamber. It just seems | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
you dodged the issue entirely. I would have voted with the ANC to | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
vote down the impeachment motion of the opposition. How many people | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
inside your party believe it's time to Jacob Zuma to go? Well, I don't | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
know. As you indicated, there are some prominent voices which have | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
said so publicly. There may be other people. But the view of the | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
leadership is that it's not warranted by the outcome of the | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
Constitutional Court. Just to be clear. I want to make this personal | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
because politics is about conscience, it's not just about | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
party loyalty, so I want to make this personal. Finally, on this | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
point, on the record, to be clear, you personally believe that Jacob | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
Zuma has the credibility, has the integrity to continue to be | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
president of your country? Well, Jacob Zuma was elected president of | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
the African National Congress, president of the country. His | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
mandate has not concluded, and I believe his mandate is ongoing, and | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
I'm happy to serve the government of the African National Congress. | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
Well, you are extraordinarily loyal to your party, but you didn't really | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
address the question of your own personal feelings about Jacob Zuma. | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
Maybe you choose not to. Well, I'm loyal to the collective of the | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
African National Congress, the vision of the African National | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
Congress. To ask to correct things that have gone wrong in the | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
administration of the state, but I believe we have a proud record of | :13:28. | :13:36. | |
achievements that needs to be safeguarded as Phares the African | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
National Congress is concerned. That's where I deployed and I have a | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
contribution to make, and that's what I'm doing. We'll get to | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
discussing the economy in just a minute. Let's get there by way of, | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
it seems to me, another fundamental credibility issue facing your | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
government. How did you respond when the Financial Times reported that | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
deputy finance minister Jonas had told them that a controversial | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
family with major business interest in South Africa, the Gupta family, | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
had offered him the post of Finance Secretary, Finance Minister? | :14:16. | :14:27. | |
Well, like many, many people I am extremely concerned if there is any | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
element of truth in that. I do know that minister macro tree is a person | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
of integrity. I have no reason to doubt that he is telling us the | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
truth, and I think there is a serious problem if we have people | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
from business concerned offering people ministerial positions. That | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
is completely out of order, that is completely unacceptable, and indeed, | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
I think Deputy Minister Jonas, the way he reported it, he did the right | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
thing in refusing it. That's what Jonas said, he said I rejected out | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
of hand because it made a mockery of hard earned democracy and of course | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
I should say that the Gupta family have categorically denied the | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
meeting, have denied that they were politically interfering in any way | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
but the fact is that many South Africans have seen... Go on. So the | :15:15. | :15:25. | |
ANC has invited everyone with information to come to the ANC and | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
explain to them, to put all their cards on the table, and to come back | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
to the executive and deliver us a report on this matter. I don't know | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
the veracity of any particular allegations or not, I don't know. | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
What you do know is that Jacob Zuma fired his Finance Minister on the | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
ninth of December 2015, I think it was. He appointed a man who was | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
virtually unknown to the position, and then four days later he fired | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
him, and appointed another man who had been Finance Minister before | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
him. What does that tell us about the ability of the President to | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
manage the economy by way of key appointments? Well, I think that the | :16:14. | :16:22. | |
fact that he eventually emerged as the Finance Minister meant that what | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
happened was that the organisation, the leadership of the organisation, | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
are capable of recognising where there has been a mistake and capable | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
of correcting it. And that's what happened in that particular case. It | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
was a shambles. Well, you can use whatever adjective you want, but I'm | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
just saying that the organisation was capable of rectifying the | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
mistake. And on this question of crony capitalism, and the state | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
being captured by certain business interests, which you know better | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
than me is a conversation that many South Africans have had in the last | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
few months, and are having right now today, let me just ask you this | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
question. Do you know of are Guptas? I do. I have met them on a number of | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
occasions, yes. You have met them as a minister. Does it strike you as at | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
least an uneasy and awkward thing that when you meet the Guptas, you | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
know full well that the President's Sun has a major stake in some of | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
their holding companies. Does that... You know, when we are | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
talking about crony capitalism and the way South Africa works today, | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
does that make you feel uneasy? Well, let me just say from point of | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
view of me and my department and where I work, when I interact with | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
people there no way at all that any interaction I have with any | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
individual, any person, is going to influence how we deploy our forces | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
as a department. We have professionals. We take decisions | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
about how we deploy our incentives. We set policy frameworks. I do not | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
get involved in deciding whether any individual businessperson will or | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
will not get access to any of our particular programmes. They never | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
asked me about it, and had they asked me, that would be the answer I | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
gave them. Coming back, finally, give me a simple answer. Do you feel | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
uneasy when you meet significant, major business players in South | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
Africa and you know that one of the President's closest relatives as a | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
major stake in what they are doing? Well, the Gupta family, none of | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
their business interests interact with anything our department. I met | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
many business people in South Africa, I met multinational | :18:44. | :18:45. | |
corporations who have invested in our country, all kinds of business | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
people. I have an approach to them which is one that I am a servant of | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
the people of the country. I take decisions in the interest of the | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
country as a whole, I don't take decisions in the interest of any | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
particular business people. All right. Now, we have talked about the | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
political crisis at the top of your government. We have talked about the | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
allegations and the uneasy about so-called crony capitalism in South | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
Africa today. What we need to get to is the fact that your economy is in | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
dire straits. The Finance Minister, whom we have discussed, Pravin | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
Gordhan, said just a couple of weeks ago, let us be honest, the economy | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
is in crisis. Do you agree? I do. And, as is the world economy. And | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
what is happening at this particular phase of the world economic crisis | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
is that it is not just affecting us in South Africa as it has done up | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
until now, in the form of depressed global demand, but also right now it | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
is affecting mineral commodity producing and exporting countries. | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
So we're in the same category as Canada, which has been in recession. | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
Our growth rate is pretty much the same Australia's. Brazil is in a | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
deep recession, and many countries in the African continent which are | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
producers and exporters of primary commodities are suffering from the | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
fact that the commodity supercycle passed its peak in 2012 and | :20:11. | :20:12. | |
commodity prices are very much lower than they have been in recent past. | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
That is the gist of it, and we are an economy in which 60% of our | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
export earnings are from exports. Well, if I may say so, minister, a | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
lot of South Africans would say that is partly the gist of it. No one | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
would doubt that the end of the commodity supercycle has had a great | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
effect on South Africa, that is hardly deniable. But what is surely | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
to the point here, is that your government, the government usurped | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
as part of, has proven incapable of showing leadership and getting the | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
country out of the mess. In fact, the mess is getting worse and worse. | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
Unemployment is at least 25%, although the IMF says it is much | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
closer to 32%. You've got a growing debt in your nation which has, I | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
think, doubled since Jacob Zuma came to power. Your currency is showing | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
historic weakness, and all the signs are that the credit ratings agencies | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
who look at you from the outside are going to downgrade your credit | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
rating to junk status. You represent sort of South Africa to the world in | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
economic terms. You've got to accept this is all a disaster. I don't | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
accept it is all a disaster, what I would accept is that we are facing | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
some very, very serious challengers. And we are in the same category as | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
many other economies. Now... Yes, but not all those economies are led | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
by governments which have totally lost credibility. No, but I don't | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
think that that's the case either with South Africa. For a start, what | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
our programmes are are to address the things that we can affect under | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
very difficult circumstances. So for example, if you are in South Africa | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
about 18 months ago, people were talking about the energy challenges. | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
We have not had any kind of power interruption for nine months in this | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
country now. We are getting on top of the energy situation. But that is | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
precisely because so many of your big industrial countries, including | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
mining operations and others, are no longer using the same amount of | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
power because the economy is in such a slowdown. That is precisely why | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
your power cuts are not taking place at the moment. But leave that aside, | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
we are almost out of time. You are the Trade Minister, surely this... | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
We are not in recession. Not yet, but you are very close. We have a | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
steady inflow of investments. We have a steady inflow of investments. | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
Some of our sectors in manufacturing, where I am | :22:46. | :22:47. | |
responsible, where diversification is the key element of our response, | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
we have seen for example the automotive, we have seen very | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
significant investment and very significant... Foreign Minister, if | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
I may say so, we are almost out of time. Foreign investment into South | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
Africa fell 74%, that according to the Congress on trade and | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
development on the 24th of January. That is the real situation in your | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
country today because of the political mess all around you. | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
Absolutely not. That particular figure was the product of two | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
transactions by two companies. We will see the same drop again when we | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
see Barclays restructure its operations in Africa but actually | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
there is a steady pipeline of investments that are coming into our | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
country, going into the water, going into fast moving consumer goods, | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
going into our infrastructure projects, going into railways, there | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
is a steady stream of foreign investment in the real economy. Yes, | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
the mining economy is not as attractive as it was. There is | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
difficult circumstances. But the devalued currency has not been bad | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
for many of our productive sectors. All right, final question because | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
we're out of time and it will have to be pretty much yes or no. Will | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
Jacob Zuma serve out his full term? Well, I'm not going to get into | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
those kinds of predictions. I don't see any reason at this point in time | :24:06. | :24:14. | |
why he should not. All right, Rob Davies, thank you very much for | :24:15. | :24:16. | |
joining me from Cape Town. | :24:17. | :24:18. |