Hilary Benn - Shadow Foreign Secretary HARDtalk


Hilary Benn - Shadow Foreign Secretary

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After the British Labour Party suffered a crushing election defeat

:00:15.:00:18.

a year ago, the shell-shocked party took a dramatic turn to the left.

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New leader Jeremy Corbyn presented himself as the anti-austerity,

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anti-war antithesis of Tony Blair's New Labour.

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So, how is the Corbyn formula working?

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My guest is senior Labour stalwart Shadow Foreign

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Does Labour present a credible alternative

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Hilary Benn, welcome to HARDtalk.

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It is, as I said, a year on from a very, very difficult

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We've just had regional elections across much of the UK and results

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In response to them, Jeremy Corbyn said, we hung on.

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I think we all recognise that we are going to need to do

:01:29.:01:34.

That election defeat a year ago and, indeed, in 2010 was very painful

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and difficult and it's a question of regaining the public's

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If you look at the results last week, really important one in London

:01:43.:01:48.

with Sadiq Khan's election as the mayor of our great capital

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city, Marvin Rees won in Bristol, in Scotland...

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You can point to some positive signs but one can also point

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to some deeply depressing structural problems,

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perhaps the biggest of which is in Scotland.

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Would you agree that, given what has happened in Scotland,

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the chances of Labour winning a national general election victory,

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looked at from today, are virtually nil?

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We have a huge challenge ahead of us, and yes, if Scotland remains

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as it is at the moment, we would have to make a very,

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very large number of gains in England.

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I'm not going to forecast the outcome of the next election

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but, with the boundary changes, but also makes it more difficult

:02:31.:02:34.

The reasons for our decline in Scotland, I think,

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They are not just about the independence referendum.

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That is going to take a long time for us to recover there.

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Kezia Dugdale is there for the long term and she is committed to holding

:02:48.:02:51.

the SNP government to account and it is striking that

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Nicola Sturgeon did actually lose her absolute majority

:02:54.:02:56.

Perhaps what is most striking, from a Labour point of view,

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and in terms of figuring out the party's strategy for the next

:03:01.:03:03.

four years in the run-up to the next general election,

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what's interesting about Scotland is that Jeremy Corbyn said,

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number one, I'm making it a priority, and number two,

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he led the strategic shift left in Scotland.

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The message from Scottish Labour was, we are going to raise your

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taxes, we are going to spend more, we are going to ditch Trident.

:03:18.:03:20.

These were all fundamentally left-wing messages, left of the SNP.

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But the Scottish public isn't buying.

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But I think that the reasons for that are longer standing

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than the particular policies that we were campaigning on in this

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It has been a long-term decline and it was the referendum that

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suddenly opened the floodgates and we saw the extraordinary

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about turn and the loss of every one of our seats,

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bar one, Ian Murray, in the general election a year ago.

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So look, none of us, Jeremy, the Shadow Cabinet,

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the party in Scotland, none of us are under any illusions

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about the scale of the challenge we face.

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I guess one of the deep problems for Labour today, going

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beyond results in Scotland, London or anywhere else is that it's

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very difficult for a party to deliver a successful message

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to the public when it appears to be so divided.

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And one of the biggest divides in Labour today

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is between the party on the ground, the tens of thousands

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of new activists have signed up to the party and the Parliamentary

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party, which clearly, in very large numbers,

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doesn't back Jeremy Corbyn and is deeply dissatisfied

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Well, it's a fact that Jeremy's support amongst the PLP at the time

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He only just got enough supporters to get him into the election

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in the first place and, when one looks the way Parliament

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The lesson from history, and those of us who are old enough to have

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lived through the experiences of the 1980s, is that divided

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parties find it very difficult to win elections.

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One of the responsibilities on all of us is to recognise

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that we have to turn our attention to the government, we have

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to turn our attention the policies that we are going to develop to put

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to the British people before the next election and not to argue

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amongst ourselves because that, in the end, does no good, above all,

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to the people that we represent and seek to represent.

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Interesting phrase you just used, it's my job to support Jeremy.

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It's not your job to support Jeremy if you become convinced that he's

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taking the Labour Party in the fundamentally wrong direction.

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Then it's surely your job, as a loyal Labour Party politician,

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No, it is our job to support the elected leader

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of the Labour Party, and that is what we are doing.

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That is an obligation on all members of the party, but when it comes

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to particular policies, then it is for the party to decide.

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So let's take an example, the future of Britain's nuclear deterrent,

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where we are currently having a review.

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The Labour Party's policy for 30 plus years has been

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to support the maintenance of Britain's nuclear deterrent.

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That is my view, it is not Jeremy's view, everybody knows that,

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but the Labour Party conference in the end will decide when we see

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the result of the review that is taking place at the moment.

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So it's not as if debate and discussion about particular

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policies ends because a particular leader has been elected.

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That is part of the life blood, the democracy, of the Labour Party,

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but we are working towards the same ends, which is to try and get rid

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of a Tory government that is failing in the country.

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It's interesting you pick up on Trident as a litmus test issue.

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Number one, do you really believe the British public as a whole

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is ready for a far left of the which says,

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we are scrapping Britain's independent nuclear deterrent?

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I'm just asking you whether you believe that is even conceivably

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I don't think that would be the right policy to adopt.

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On the record, as having said that, why do I hold that view?

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Because I believe that the deterrent has helped to maintain the peace

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since the end of the Second World War, because it is a world out

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there that has changed, certainly from the Cold War

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of my childhood and student days, but there are different threats now

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In addition, I don't believe that if Britain were to announce

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it was giving up its nuclear deterrent than any of the other

:07:26.:07:28.

nuclear states, whether they've signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation

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Treaty or not would say, if you are doing that,

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And I don't think the British people would feel safe in a world

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in which we didn't have nuclear weapons but North Korea did.

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I framed our conversation in terms of credibility.

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One thing Jeremy Corbyn said is, even if the party tells me

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that we must retain our commitment to renewing Trident,

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I as a Prime Minister, if elected as leader of a successful

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Labour Party to Number 10 Downing St, would never

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I simply will never personally use nuclear weapons.

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That undermines the credibility of the entire policy!

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That is Jeremy being true onto himself and that is one

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But then it's incumbent upon you, is not, to say, Mr Corbyn,

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with all due respect, you've left the party

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in an impossible position because we have no credible policy?

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The policy, as to whether we continue to have nuclear weapons,

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will be decided by the Labour Party conference and then all of us

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are going to have to look at the outcome if, as I hope,

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the Labour Party conference says, yes, we are going to stick

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with the position that we have taken these last 30 years because one

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of the first obligations on a party that aspires to be in government

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is that we demonstrate that we are prepared to defend

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And I think the nuclear deterrent, because in the end, it says

:08:47.:08:51.

to a potential aggressor, I really wouldn't do that

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if I were you, is part of the way in which we keep the nation safe,

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and that is why I support the retention of that deterrent.

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As you say, that's an issue which looms large for

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Right now, the biggest challenge, and you've said it's the biggest

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challenge facing the entire country for at least 40 years,

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is the decision to be made on whether to stay

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It is a problem for you, is it not, as a very strong

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and passionate advocate of remain, that Jeremy Corbyn has a track

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record which tells us that he, despite his support for remaining

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today, fundamentally disagrees with so much

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of what the European Union does and, in the past, has sounded

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I don't agree with your analysis of his view and it certainly is not

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problem because the Labour Party, as you know, has been on a journey

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In the 1975 referendum, a majority of the Labour Party,

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Jeremy, me, lots of labour and trade union members,

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voted for us to leave the common market.

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But the world has changed and the Labour Party's views have

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changed, not least because Europe has become a way of helping

:10:02.:10:05.

to protect workers' rights, something that Jeremy

:10:06.:10:07.

and I and all of us are extremely passionate about.

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And my argument is, it's even more convincing and forceful when someone

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who says, in the past, this is what I thought,

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but I am now of the view that this is the right thing for us to do.

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I think it resonates with the public, and what is true

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about the Labour Party now is the labour and trade union

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movement is virtually united in support of the argument

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that we should remain in the European Union have

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very clear and sound reasons to do with jobs,

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investment, growth, our security in the world, workers' rights,

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protection of the environment and Britain's voice.

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I believe that Britain's voice, and so does Jeremy, is made louder

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and stronger by being part of the European Union and leaving

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You've been a strong, passionate supporter

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of the EU for some time, not true of Mr Corbyn.

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This is what he said during his own leadership

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He said, I would advocate a No vote if we are going to get

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an imposition of free-market policies across Europe.

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And another quotes, he's made it plain that he does

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believe that the EU is run by a corporate interest.

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deeply reluctant to be very public and passionate backing

:11:19.:11:20.

There's another quote from Jeremy's election campaign,

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which you haven't used, in which he said, I believe

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And if you look at the speech that he gave about a month ago,

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Yes, we want a stronger social Europe, yes, we want

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better rights for workers, but the way in which you do

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that is to work with your neighbours.

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You look at the world out there, which you discuss on this

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programme every week, you see the challenges,

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you think of what we are going to leave to our children

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and our grandchildren, and the truth is this,

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that cooperating with our European neighbours, and this is the argument

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we are making, as is Jeremy, cooperating with our European

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neighbours is really important in helping us to manage

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the challenges that face the world the next generation

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So it partly comes down to the question of leadership,

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When one is trying to win a case, one has to be as passionate

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David Cameron is all over the airwaves every single

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day, backing the remain campaign, leading it.

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Jeremy Corbyn most definitely is not.

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He had an event yesterday, he's maybe odd speech,

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but relative to Cameron, he is as quiet as a mouse.

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And here is what some of your most senior pro-Europe

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They said, there are some moments when party leaders must make a real

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We need Jeremy to convey the urgency, set out

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The time is now the Labour's leadership to stand

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We then heard that Jeremy Corbyn was off on holiday just before the vote.

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That is exactly what we are doing and he is doing.

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That is exactly what he did in this speech he gave and you will hear

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a lot more from Jeremy during the course of this campaign.

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Do you agree with my analysis that he's

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All of us in the Labour Party have got a responsibility to use the time

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that we've got now that elections are out of the way,

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to argue the case, on which we are united,

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Jeremy, the whole of the Shadow Cabinet, the vast

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majority of the PLP, all of the major unions that

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are affiliated to the Labour Party, speaking with one voice

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about the importance of remaining in the European Union.

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You, obviously a Shadow Foreign Secretary, take a particular

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interest in the degree to which Britain is a stronger voice

:13:38.:13:41.

on the world stage as a part of the European Union.

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It disagreed with profoundly by the Brexit campaign.

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But I just want to pick away at some of the things you've said.

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You say, the EU is a hugely powerful alliance built on the values

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of democracy, respect for human rights, free media,

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rule of law, individual freedom, etc, etc.

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I just wonder whether you have spent much time reading about or visiting

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Victor Orban's Hungary or the Poland of the Law and Justice Party,

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a bunch of other European nations too, where there are real questions

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about is whether these shared values, particularly in terms

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of the migration crisis, add up to a hill of beans?

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You've got to take a long-term view about what the European Union has

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achieved, and its greatest achievement, as you know,

:14:31.:14:33.

has been to bring to an end what was centuries of conflict

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And it didn't happen by accident out of the ashes of

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It happened because political leaders said, by binding the nations

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together economically, we will make a return to conflict

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materially impossible and unthinkable.

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You could argue that Nato is pretty darn important, actually.

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They are both important but you know...

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In fact, Boris Johnson, when he wrote his book on Churchill,

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he described that achievement as a spectacular success.

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But Boris Johnson has very powerfully made the point

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in the last few days that, yes, there is a strong case for arguing

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the EU is a very important part of a peaceful, stable Europe

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since 1945, but the idea that David Cameron now peddles,

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that if Britain pulls out, Europe slips back

:15:26.:15:28.

into a continent of warfare and hatred, it's nonsense!

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The EU will continue without Britain and peace and stability across most

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of Europe is unlikely to be affected materially by Britain

:15:38.:15:40.

The European Union has provided a home for countries that came out of

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the former Soviet bloc and that has been a great achievement because I

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know from my inexperience as a minister, those countries had to

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make changes in the way in which they will run and worked in order to

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meet the standard. You are right that you look at the continent of

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Europe and around the world and you see politics moving in different

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directions, in part because of the impact of the global economic crash,

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and this is a dangerous time because of those precious. There's no

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question about that at all. But the existence of the European Union, the

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fact that the 28 countries come together to deal with the refugee

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crisis... Which they have failed to do. Imagine a continent in which

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there was not that structure, imagine it. We would see a lot more

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barbed wire fences and brick walls and that is not in anybody's

:16:49.:16:53.

interests. Take another example, Russian aggression in the Ukraine.

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The fact that Europe came together and agreed to impose sanctions on

:16:59.:17:02.

Russia, they are hurting Russia but they are a sign of the European

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family saying, you can't do this. You were a big advocate at the time

:17:09.:17:15.

of the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The European Union was fundamentally

:17:16.:17:20.

split on the issue, France and Germany deeply disagreed with Tony

:17:21.:17:24.

Blair in your position. So this idea that the European family delivers

:17:25.:17:31.

coherent foreign policy is nonsense. With respect, that's a caricature of

:17:32.:17:36.

the argument I'm making. There will be differences of view on particular

:17:37.:17:42.

issues. But are we in a better place in Europe by being part of the

:17:43.:17:47.

European Union to have the chance to try an agreement? Is that a force

:17:48.:17:51.

for good? Is it an influence for good in the world? Yes, in Britain

:17:52.:17:55.

is in a particular position because we are both leading. This notion we

:17:56.:18:01.

are locked in the boot of someone else's car, being driven in a

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direction we don't want to go on, is nonsense. Picking up on the

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migration crisis, it is a big issue in the referendum campaign. It seems

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to me there is a difference between your view of whether Britain needs

:18:15.:18:20.

to impose tough immigration controls and particularly about the benefits

:18:21.:18:25.

system and the view of the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, who has

:18:26.:18:29.

shied away from talking about it. They don't believe that there is a

:18:30.:18:35.

future for national borders and they believe in workers, freedom of

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movement across the EU. You seem less keen on that side of the

:18:40.:18:42.

British public. How big a difference is their? Weber's position has been

:18:43.:18:50.

we believe in fair contribution but the reason people have come from

:18:51.:18:53.

other European countries to Britain is to work. They have made a net

:18:54.:18:58.

contribution to our economy. The British public believe that far too

:18:59.:19:03.

many have come in and one can trace that back to Labour's decision in

:19:04.:19:10.

2004 to open the gates to Eastern European accession countries. Jack

:19:11.:19:14.

Straw has said that was a terrible mistake. If one looks at polling

:19:15.:19:19.

evidence and the strength of Ukip, many working people in this country

:19:20.:19:22.

today do not believe your party is tough or strong on controlling

:19:23.:19:29.

immigration. When it comes to the European Union, and I accept there

:19:30.:19:33.

are places in sectors where there has been pressure on wages and one

:19:34.:19:37.

has to recognise that, but all the studies that have been done have

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shown that is relatively small when you compare it to the economic

:19:41.:19:45.

benefits of being in the European Union, the access to the single

:19:46.:19:49.

market, the fact we are the most successful country in the EU in

:19:50.:19:53.

attracting foreign direct investment is in part connected with the fact

:19:54.:19:58.

that we are members of the European Union. You need to manage that. We

:19:59.:20:03.

had a fund that helped areas that were facing pressures to cope with

:20:04.:20:07.

that. One of the things the present government did was to get rid of

:20:08.:20:12.

that. In forcing the minimum wage, arguing for a living wage, dealing

:20:13.:20:16.

with employment agencies that say we will only recruit workers from

:20:17.:20:19.

another country. Those things should not be allowed. When it comes to the

:20:20.:20:24.

housing crisis, solving that ends in our own hands. One other area want

:20:25.:20:30.

to refer to when it comes to building and ability for the Labour

:20:31.:20:35.

Party, it concerns the fallout from days of terrible publicity

:20:36.:20:41.

surrounding one of your MPs then Ken Livingstone, appearing to hold views

:20:42.:20:44.

which many in the Jewish community of the UK felt anti-Semitic. Ken

:20:45.:21:01.

Livingstone less apologetic. Lord Levy says Labour has a serious

:21:02.:21:07.

problem with anti-Semitism. It's crucial that leadership stands out

:21:08.:21:11.

once and for all. You haven't stamped out, have you? I wouldn't

:21:12.:21:18.

agree with that. Anyone against whom this accusation has been made has

:21:19.:21:24.

been suspended and Jeremy Corbyn has established this enquiry. Do you

:21:25.:21:29.

believe Ken Livingstone, when he was talking about Hitler and Zionism and

:21:30.:21:36.

suggesting that his supporters, was that anti-Semitic? I will not

:21:37.:21:39.

comment on individual cases because there has to be due process through

:21:40.:21:47.

the NEC but I think a lot of people look to Ken Livingstone's comments

:21:48.:21:53.

without a incredulity. Including me. I don't understand what he thought

:21:54.:21:57.

he was doing and why he was saying what he said but we need to leave

:21:58.:22:02.

that to... What about Jeremy Corbyn? This matters to you. Jeremy Corbyn

:22:03.:22:09.

has referred to the mass and has belies friends. They friends of

:22:10.:22:15.

yours? No, they are not. He said the House of Commons last week they were

:22:16.:22:19.

not his friends and he does not support those. When it comes to how

:22:20.:22:25.

mass, if there would be peace in the Middle East, people have to commit

:22:26.:22:30.

to a peace process, they have to stop being committed to armed

:22:31.:22:33.

struggle and in the case of how mass, they had to recognise the

:22:34.:22:38.

right of Israel to exist otherwise there will not be pieced in the

:22:39.:22:42.

Middle East. I want to get to grips with you. I'd you saying to me the

:22:43.:22:51.

Jeremy Corbyn in his sharing of platforms with Hezbollah are and how

:22:52.:22:55.

mass, has done a grave disservice to Labour in the Middle East? I'm not

:22:56.:23:00.

saying that. As a backbencher, Jeremy has been involved on a lot of

:23:01.:23:05.

platforms with a lot of people. And saying to you what he said the house

:23:06.:23:09.

are problems in those two specific questions. If there is to be pieced

:23:10.:23:15.

in the Middle East, there has to be courageous political leadership on

:23:16.:23:19.

the part of the party to the conflict, the government of Israel

:23:20.:23:23.

and Palestinians and that is not present at the moment, and the only

:23:24.:23:28.

way will happen is if there is a commitment to peaceful and

:23:29.:23:32.

compromise because peace will not come to the Middle East unless those

:23:33.:23:36.

things happen and there's an obligation on those who are

:23:37.:23:39.

currently engaged in what they believe to be an armed struggle and

:23:40.:23:43.

who don't accept the right of Israel to exist, they have to change that

:23:44.:23:47.

view in order to be part of a peaceful solution. We have run out

:23:48.:23:52.

time. Hilary Benn, thank you for being an HARDtalk.

:23:53.:23:59.

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