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Party. It was published on Weibo.. It has been widely shared. That's | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
all from me. Welcome to HARDtalk, | :00:00. | :00:14. | |
I'm Stephen Sackur. The British Brexit vote has | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
detonated a political explosion which is reverberating | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
across Europe. And now | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
EU leaders are desperate to prevent the uncertainty and political chaos | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
here in London spreading across the European Union, | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
and threatening to unravel My guest today is France's energy | :00:38. | :00:38. | |
and environment Minister, Is France determined to get tough | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
on Britain to discourage people in other EU nations | :00:46. | :00:53. | |
from contemplating a dash Segolene Royale, | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
welcome to HARDtalk. Your Prime Minister, Manuel Vals, | :00:56. | :01:14. | |
said the Brexit vote is an electric shock, an explosion | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
on a world scale. Just how dangerous do you believe | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
Britain's vote to have been? I sense a tone of anger | :01:20. | :02:11. | |
in your voice and in your answer, do you think the British | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
government, maybe the British people too, | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
understand the depth of anger and alienation being felt | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
in Paris and across There is already a debate | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
about when the negotiations Your President and | :02:22. | :03:10. | |
Prime Minister have suggested they want those formal | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
negotiations to start as soon as possible, and indeed one source | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
close to President Hollande said nothing would be worse than a long | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
drawnout negotiation and France is going to exert pressure | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
with that in mind. So how are you going to pressure | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
the British to implement Article 50 and to get | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
these talks going? But you can't make David Cameron | :03:40. | :04:12. | |
trigger Article 50, he has the right to delay it and he has said | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
because he is now leaving office he will leave it to | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
the next Prime Minister to decide how and when to implement | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
Article 50 and begin the formal I just don't see how the French | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
government can actually It's a British decision, | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
it's not a French But it's not your gift, | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
it's not your decision. As you say, there are all sorts | :04:38. | :05:01. | |
of ways Britain's relationship with the EU matters | :05:02. | :05:52. | |
but the number one issue above all others is the economy | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
and what kind of trade deal the UK can expect with the | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
European Union after Now, one senior Conservative | :05:59. | :06:00. | |
minister who may be putting his hat into the ring to be the next leader, | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
Jeremy Hunt, has just written this. He said, "We must negotiate | :06:08. | :06:18. | |
for the UK full access to the single market with a sensible | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
compromise on the freedom But with respect, that was | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
then and this is now. I suppose it comes down to this, | :06:25. | :07:04. | |
whether you are minded, you in the French | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
government and other European governments, | :07:08. | :07:08. | |
whether you are minded to look for a compromise with | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
the United Kingdom to maintain a very strong relationship, | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
or whether there's an element punishment that you feel the UK | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
will have to be punished, will have to face serious | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
negative consequences But with respect, isn't that | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
precisely why there are some members of your government in France | :07:21. | :08:08. | |
who say, the Brits cannot be given a good deal because | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
if the deal looks too good it will simply encourage | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
others to think about making The word is contagion. | :08:17. | :08:18. | |
Are you worried about that? The mayor of Calais has said that | :08:19. | :08:40. | |
as a result of the Brexit vote, there should be a complete | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
rethinking of the so-called Le Touquet Treaty of 2003 which sees | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
British immigration officials working on French soil and, | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
in effect, going through the passport controls | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
and procedures on French Now, the argument is that | :08:51. | :08:52. | |
after Brexit, the French have the right to tear up | :08:53. | :09:06. | |
the Le Touquet treaty and tell the British that they should do it | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
for themselves in Britain. So let's have clarity | :09:10. | :09:54. | |
and truth on one other bilateral issue which could be | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
affected by all the uncertainty that comes with the Brexit vote, | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
and that is in a sense part And the massive French | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
investment in a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
in the west of England. It's vastly expensive, | :10:13. | :10:23. | |
it's going to cost at And, according to one leading | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
energy expert in the UK, Paul Dorfman, he says, | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
"After all of the uncertainty that comes with Brexit, | :10:33. | :10:34. | |
it is extremely unlikely that the French energy | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
company EDF will continue with its investment and plan | :10:37. | :10:38. | |
for Hinkley Point". But the project looks | :10:39. | :10:40. | |
very different... But it has a lot to do | :10:41. | :11:25. | |
with confidence and uncertainty and doesn't the project looks very | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
different now Britain is in the midst of | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
complete political chaos, long-term economic uncertainty | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
and EDF, which is 85% owned by your state, why would | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
it want to continue with this project amid | :11:39. | :11:40. | |
so much uncertainty? A log of your fellow French men | :11:41. | :12:21. | |
and women I think have lost faith in Europe, and when you say you want | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
Europe to go in a deeper more integrated direction, | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
many will listen to Marine Le Pen. She hailed the British referendum | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
result, she said it was a victory for freedom and you know | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
the National Front right now commands well over 20% | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
support your country. It's not David Cameron's fault that | :12:40. | :13:20. | |
Marine Le Pen is increasingly When she delivers | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
a message, which is deeply Eurosceptical, which is now | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
demanding a referendum, how are you going to persuade French | :13:30. | :13:31. | |
people that she hasn't got But in essence you're saying | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
you will never allow the French people to have their own | :13:35. | :13:48. | |
fundamental say on whether I don't think it's democracy | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
if you only think one answer is right and the other | :13:52. | :14:08. | |
is unacceptable. You can't say that you too find | :14:09. | :14:52. | |
the European Union frustrating and then say in the next | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
breath that you and the president want more Europe, | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
deeper, more integration. Either you want more | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
Europe or you don't and if you do many, particularly | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
perhaps in other parts of the European Union, | :15:07. | :15:08. | |
like Eastern Europe, The Czech Foreign Minister said | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
Brexit in the end... The fault lies in | :15:12. | :15:22. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the Commission | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
and the mentality of federalism in He said people like | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
Juncker need to resign. So there are real divisions | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
inside the European Union. But the fact is, and I am sure | :15:35. | :16:23. | |
you look at the opinion polls just like I do, that the French | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
are increasingly Eurosceptic as a whole, | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
but also the Front National, the voice of euroscepticism | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
in France, is increasingly popular. The reason they are so popular | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
is because the established parties, including yours, | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
the Socialist Party, According to the French historian | :16:44. | :16:45. | |
Marc Lazar he says the party, the Socialists, are deeply | :16:46. | :17:29. | |
divided on almost every In a way you appear to be abandoned | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
by the working class voters who used to be the foundation | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
of the Socialist Party. They now look to Marine | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
Le Pen, because they believe she represents | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
their interests more than you do. But right now President Hollande | :17:49. | :18:18. | |
is in a battle with unions, who say he has fundamentally | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
betrayed the interests of working people by pushing | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
through a neoliberal economic agenda, changing labour | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
laws to make it much easier to fire Again, the Socialist | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
Party seems to be lost. You seem to have lost your sense of | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
who you are and who you represent. You are a very experienced | :18:41. | :19:44. | |
politician, you have run for the presidency before, | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
you are still a very senior President Hollande's ratings | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
are the lowest in history. 80% of the French people disapprove | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
of what he's doing and 75% say that on no account should | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
he consider running Either you will find | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
a new candidate or you will have to accept that the next | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
presidential election is lost. You look very excited and I've been | :20:13. | :20:30. | |
reading the French newspapers and some French | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
commentators believe that you and your approval | :20:38. | :20:38. | |
ratings are much higher than Francois Hollande's | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
and you are a credible candidate for the Socialist Party | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
to be president, Let's end this interview | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
by going back to the beginning. We began by talking | :20:47. | :21:22. | |
about the explosion which has happened in Europe | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
because of Brexit. What Europe needs now | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
is strong leadership. Will Europe have to | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
rely on Angela Merkel? You are very, very, very angry | :21:32. | :22:11. | |
with David Cameron, aren't you? And if you were in this room not | :22:12. | :22:43. | |
with me but with David Cameron and you had the chance | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
to tell him what you thought of his decision-making | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
and his legacy, as he is now about to leave office | :22:50. | :22:51. | |
so we can think about his legacy, what | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
would you say to him? Segolene Royal, we have | :22:55. | :24:05. | |
to end there, but thank June, 2016 is now | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
a thing of the past. Not all the stats are in | :24:08. | :24:48. | |
but the provisional ones suggest it will go down as a rather | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
damp and a dull month. | :24:52. | :24:55. |