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people complain about Angela Eagle and the Iraq war and that could be | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
his silver bullet. Thank you for coming in. Now on BBC News it is | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk with Ms Aina | :00:00. | :00:18. | |
Badawi. The attempted coup in Turkey may have been crushed, but has it | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
exposed holes in bed gom's power? Members of the judiciary and police | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
have been arrested or relieved from duty. My guest is Mehmet Simsek. Is | :00:34. | :00:45. | |
that a gun to polarising a figure and is his grip on Turkey weaker | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
than it seems? -- Erdogan. Deputy Prime Minister Mehmet Simsek | :00:48. | :01:15. | |
in Ankara, welcome to HARDtalk. What an extraordinary time for Turkey. | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
Nearly 300 people dead, clashes on the streets between the police and | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
mutinous soldiers, civilians. 1500 wounded, the parliament in Ankara | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
was bombed and President Erdogan hunted down by mutinous troops. This | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
coup, had it been better organised, could have succeeded, couldn't it? | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
What, thank you. Yes, it was really an extraordinary night in a really | :01:45. | :01:53. | |
big nightmare and certainly it seems that it was quite an elaborate | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
attempt to essentially get rid of a democratically elected government. I | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
think with details coming out, certainly a fairly elaborate attempt | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
and we have been very lucky to escape. I think not lucky, but I | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
think people stood up for democracy and people were so courageous. This | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
will probably go down in history where unarmed people stood up to | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
tanks and planes and armed gangsters, rogue elements within the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Army, and prevented a disruption in Turkish democracy, and hopefully | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
that will prevent future attempts, not only in Turkey, but in other | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
emerging democracies. It should be a source of inspiration. You were in | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
your constituency. Where you worried? Were you worried for your | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
safety, for instance? Yes, of course. Here is how things develop. | :02:56. | :03:05. | |
I was in my constituency, nearly 2 million population and hosting | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
250,000 Syrian refugees. I was with the OECD Secretary General. We were | :03:14. | :03:22. | |
due to fly to Istanbul and the chief security and the governors said they | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
wanted to have a word with me and they mention the work unusual | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
movements of troops and that these might -- this might be the beginning | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
of the military koo. It was shocking, but I said we have to | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
fight them off. -- military coup. Let us set up a crisis management | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
centre. I ended up going to democracy Square and within hours we | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
had a quarter of a million people the and literally I think that | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
massive show prevented the local general from getting out of his | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
military camp. So you are talking about people power. We certainly saw | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
people in the streets, but that was a worrying aspect of what happened | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
because basically in some cases we saw lynch mobs turning on some of | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
the soldiers and some of the soldiers, as you know, Deputy Prime | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Minister, were teenagers. Privates. They thought they were taking part | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
in military exercises, not a military coup. There was a report of | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
a soldier having his throat slit. Are you going to investigate this | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
kind of moral justice? Absolutely, and your last bit is by the way | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
incorrect. No one had his throat slit. That was misreporting. It has | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
been fortified, but certainly we cannot approve of such acts. But | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
imagine, you know, an army of a country, rogue elements within the | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
Army essentially having tanks, aeroplanes, attacking people, | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
civilians and the parliament and other security forces. So you can | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
imagine the atmosphere. Of course maybe mistakes were made, but | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
clearly the biggest crime was to turn military guns on people on a | :05:21. | :05:30. | |
democratically elected government and Parliament. President Erdogan | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
has said that the plotters will pay a heavy price. He wants to restore | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
the death penalty in Turkey. Is that going to happen? No. No decision has | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
been made on the death penalty. Certainly we are responding to | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
massive public pressure to reinstate the death penalty. My government | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
eliminated the death penalty teed achieved the EU accession talks at | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
the beginning of the last decade. No decision has been made, but let's | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
face it, I think perpetrators of this failed coup have two faced | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
before. Justice otherwise it will be a huge injustice to Turkish people, | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
to Turkish democracy. We have to stay within the rules. Sorry to | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
interrupt you, but let us clarify the death penalty question because | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
the EU foreign policy chief has said no country that wishes to join the | :06:35. | :06:35. | |
European Union can have the death penalty on its statutes books, but | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
yet the president is talking about restoring the death penalty. Is he | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
whip up sentiment? No, I am just whip up sentiment? No, I am just | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
saying that today the Prime Minister was honourable and making it clear | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
that whilst he understands public demand for reinstating the death | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
penalty, this is not a foregone conclusion. We don't have the hollow | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
fibre to retreat to do so. It has to be discussed that the parliament and | :07:10. | :07:22. | |
with other elements of society. Will it be debated in Parliament? The | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
restoration of the death penalty? There may be consultations on | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
whether or not in a narrow way something could be be introduced, | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
but again, even that has not been decided. All right. There is another | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
concern that President Erdogan will see what has gone on as a bank | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
cheque to move against his opponents, whether or not they were | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
implicated in the coup. And Istanbul -based lawyer talks about arrest | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
warrants issued for thousands of people. Our big issue? Is it a | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
witchhunt, Deputy Prime Minister? -- how were they issued. We already | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
identified elements of the judiciary, they were remnants of the | :08:21. | :08:33. | |
Gulen movement. We think that they were complicit in the coup. There | :08:34. | :08:47. | |
was already a process. That process was accelerated to read juice the | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
risk of the additional threat on the back of the military coup. As far as | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the military is concerned, all along we knew that there was a very | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
significant presence of Gulen movement people in the Army and in | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
fact, in early August there was a plan to retire most of them from | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
military positions because every year you get basically a military | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
high Council gathering that decides who to promote, who to retire. We | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
get the answer. You are saying that the 15,000 or so officials who have | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
either been arrested or relief from duty, suspended from duty, you are | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
accelerating that process, but I accelerating that process, but I | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
have to put it to you that one of the judges that has been suspended | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
headed a panel ruling that said that Turkey's Bannan on Twitter was a | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
breach of the Constitution. He is a member of the Constitutional Court, | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
big country's 's body. If that the type of person included in these | :10:02. | :10:13. | |
arrests? Not his arrest, sorry, his suspension from duty. You cannot | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
take things out of context. We do have what appears to be a religious | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
movement run by a retired preacher out of Pennsylvania. It has | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
infiltrated the hierarchy of the judiciary and the military and state | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
apparatus. We call it a parallel state. I do not believe that anyone | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
would tolerate such a rogue element in the state and let us face it, the | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
carnage that this military coup has triggered and caused and have it | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
been successful, what sort of setback would Turkey have had? | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
Taking us back to the dark days... I have to interrupt you, Deputy Prime | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
Minister. You and your government are all pointing the finger at the | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
to the Gulen, a cleric in his 70s who suffers from diabetes and this | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
in Pennsylvania. He was once an ally of President Erdogan, but they fell | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
out. He denies anything to do with the failed coup. Want to make that | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
clear. Do you have evidence that his supporters were involved in the | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
attempted coup? Let me give you one simple piece of evidence that has | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
been uncovered just two nights ago. In one of the tanks that was | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
attacking Istanbul police headquarters, we arrested a | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
gentleman who was sacked from Turkish police units a few years ago | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
for affiliation with Gulen movement. He was in military uniform. Now, let | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
me ask you a simple question. What would a civilian who has been sacked | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
from the police. You years ago do in military uniform in a military tank, | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
attacking Turkish police headquarters? It does not | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
necessarily mean he is anything to do with Fetuli Gulen because you | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
know what the Americans say. John Kerry the US Secretary of State has | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
said to you, to Turkey, we have always said, give us the evidence. | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
We need a legal... Because your government is asking that the cleric | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
be extradited from Pennsylvania. The Americans are thinking of the | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
evidence. Why do you give it to them? Fair enough. We are going to | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
give them the evidence. We are going to be at the latest evidence to the | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
file as well. The Justice minister has already announced that and we | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
hope that the United States will uphold its own rules under the | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
Patriot act. Even if someone unknowingly contributes to an | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
association that supports, that turns out to be associated with | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
terrorist activity, they are also guilty. We will see how the US | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
supplies its own standards. But members of your government have gone | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
further. On the 16th of July the Prime Minister said that the country | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
that stands behind this man, the Tulik Gulen, is no friend to Turkey. | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
The Labour Minister said he believed the Obama Administration was behind | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
the coup. Both kind of comments are quite extravagant, aren't they? You | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
are at a risk of seeing a deterioration in your relationship | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
with the United States. Listen, I mean, the United States is our ally, | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
is our strategic partner and that has not changed, that will not | :13:59. | :14:09. | |
change. We have disagreements on... The Syrian parties supported by the | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
Americans. That is right. Even in families you disagree. This is not a | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
disagreement. This is accusing the United States of somehow been | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
complicit. John Kerry told the Foreign Minister in a phone call on | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
Saturday that public insinuations or claims about any role by the United | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
States in the belt koo attempt is -- in beef sales coup attempt is | :14:37. | :14:48. | |
harmful. What would you say to that? There was a press conference and the | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
minister reiterated the importance we attach to our strategic and | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
alliance relationship with the United States. That is behind us, | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
but we still expect the United States to live up to its own | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
standards and to help us combat rogue elements and terrorism here | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
locally and globally. I think that is a fair expectation. President | :15:15. | :15:27. | |
Erdogan was on holiday and he flee back to Istanbul. We understand | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
fighter jets targeted his plane. It was said that the facts that they | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
coup happened showed us that Erdogan is vulnerable. His grip on power is | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
not quite what people might think it is? Come on. President Erdogan, a | :15:50. | :16:01. | |
simple face time call help take millions of people to the streets | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
that prevented a vicious military coup and you are telling me that | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
President Erdogan does not have a strong solid footing among people? | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
Sorry, Deputy Prime Minister, I don't see how you can extrapolate | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
from the fact that many Turks were opposed to the koo view were | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
necessarily supporters. -- the coup. Many said we don't want the military | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
involved in politics, we want them to remain in the barracks. You can't | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
say that they are all Erdogan supporters. We know they are not. | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
The make this argument. I personally think that President Erdogan has | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
proved how big a menace these illegal parallel state, these rogue | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
elements, because for four years he has been talking about them and | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
going after them and many people around him and in the opposition did | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
not believe it. Now it has proved that this menace is actually quite a | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
danger to Turkish democracy, to Turkey's future. You have made that | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
point, but I am making a different point that President Erdogan is not | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
perhaps as strong as we think. For example, one of those people | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
arrested in connection with the failed coup is an aid. The general | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
who had open access to the President. Some of these arrests of | :17:40. | :17:48. | |
based on some of the information, some of these suspicions, so I think | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
the judiciary is going to look at this, is going to investigate and | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
pass judgment. Right now we are being very cautious. We have to be | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
because we have experienced a huge event... But please do answer my | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
question. I am sorry to interrupt you. His inner circle could have | :18:09. | :18:16. | |
been involved, isn't that right? I can't really judge that because the | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
investigation will uncover it, but that they tell you this, I believe | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
that President Erdogan's standing amongst Turkish people on a broader | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
political spectrum has strengthened. Support for President Erdogan, even | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
from other political parties, he has a much stronger appeal. He already | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
enjoys strong public support. I would disagree with you to that | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
extent. We know opposition parties have come out against the coup and | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
you say how much support he has, but in the November elections, the party | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
won 49.4% of the vote. You have half the Turkish population who did not | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
support the party and Erdogan. My point is you have to reach out to | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
them, he has to reach out to them. As the Financial Times said, Erdogan | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
would do better to recognise democracy is not just about winning | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
elections, but the need to show respect and restraint to opponents | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
and build shared support. That has been lacking. I would agree with | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
you, I think this catalyst big events, this massive event, | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
hopefully will help us, will serve as a catalyst to actually have | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
reconciliation domestically. In fact, there was an extraordinary | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
session of Turkish parliament where I personally am very encouraged by | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
constructive statements, so maybe this will help Turkey change the | :19:53. | :20:01. | |
design constitution. Maybe this will help Turkey reduce polarisation, | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
these domestic political tension. Resident Erdogan has already called | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
the leaders of the opposition to thank them for their stance against | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
the military. -- President Erdogan. Going forward, with many different | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
people from different walks of life, I think it is a good sign that maybe | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
we are about to embark, just the way we did on international affairs with | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
Russia and Israel, to start a process of reconciliation | :20:43. | :20:44. | |
domestically. So when you took about making turkey less polarised, I put | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
it to you that the most polarising figure in Turkish politics is | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
President Erdogan. You either love him or hate him. Is he not now a | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
liability for the ruling party? Would it not be in the national | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
interest and the interest of your party if the president were to say, | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
look, a lot of the criticisms, the failed coup was very much directed | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
at me personally, Erdogan. I am going to move on. I disagree with | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
you. If Turkish democracy is where it is today, if the Turkish economy | :21:21. | :21:31. | |
has improved, it is largely on the back of President Erdogan. His | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
reforms, his outreach to address Kurdish issues and many issues. I | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
disagree with you. President Erdogan has been a reformist and he has been | :21:42. | :21:50. | |
spot on on this rogue state, rogue elements. I think the vast majority | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
of people are recognising and appreciating his dance over the last | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
few years. -- stance. The last couple of years have been difficult. | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
We had to elections in 2014, two of them in 2015, there has been a lot | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
of domestic noise and he has personally been targeted by this | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
illegal movement that today is committing all sorts of atrocities. | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
I think a lot of people now will appreciate how right President | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
Erdogan has been. You have said that he has had progressive reformist | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
policies. You are in charge of the economy. Your party has done more | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
for the impoverished parts of your society, but does it look good when | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
President Erdogan builds a Paris that costs $700 million with over a | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
thousand rooms rushed Janmaat that is on the BBC website from the | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
Ankara arm of the chamber of architects. What does it look like | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
when you say, he has helped the poor? You know, the rate of absolute | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
poverty was 30% in 2002 when President Erdogan became Prime | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
Minister. It is down to less than 2%. Does he need that Palace? Let me | :23:12. | :23:21. | |
ask you this. The repair will for the House of Commons is ?5 | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
billion... But that is not used by just one person. So you are | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
justifying his palace? It is not about his palace. No one is going to | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
last for ever. President Erdogan will not last for ever. This is | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
Turkish real estate. Very quickly, people are willing Turkey to | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
succeed. It is a pivotal nation in a tough neighbourhood. Will you now | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
see stability in your country? Very quickly. Absolutely. Democracy has | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
won. Democracy will be strengthened. Domestic reconciliation is underway. | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Domestic tensions will ease and yes, people have won and we will do | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
everything to make people happy, creating jobs and doing structural | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
reforms. Deputy Prime Minister Mehmet Simsek in Ankara, thank you | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
for coming on HARDtalk. Good evening. It was the hottest day | :24:22. | :24:50. | |
of the year so far. We will take a | :24:51. | :24:52. |