Shahbaz Taseer, Former Hostage, 2011-2016 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.

My guest is Pakistani businessman Shahbaz Taseer,

recently released by the Taliban after nearly five years of captivity

during which he endured constant torture.

He's the son of the former governor of Punjab, who was assassinated

in 2011 for his opposition to tough blasphemy laws.

Has the vision of a tolerant, secular Pakistan been lost?

Thank you. You were kidnapped IV militants and then handed over late

last year to the Afghan Taliban. Did you ever think you would get out

alive? You were released in March this year? In the position I was, I

had just told myself you will go home one day. Having been there for

4.5 years, I did not think February would be that day. February 2000 16.

But never gave up on finding my way back home and finding my way back to

freedom -- 2016. So you were released in February but got back in

March? I was released on the 29th of the road, and it took me eight days.

It was an awful check from Afghanistan to Pakistan -- 29th of

February. How did you feel when you finally made it home? I always say

this. There are actually no words for me to describe it. I can say I

was very happy. But something you have prayed for, that you have

fought for," way back, I remember when I saw my mother and my wife and

my family, it was an overwhelming feeling -- crawled my way back. It

is like I have won this battle. I have made it. I have done what I

said I would do on the first day I was kidnapped, which is comeback

hopefully as the person I am the people I love. You are from a

wealthy family, business interests and so on. Your father of course was

assassinated by his own bodyguard Eggers of his defence of a Christian

woman who had been found guilty of blasphemy and sentenced to death in

2020 -- 2010. The family was given a security detail because of that. Why

on earth were you not travelling with guards at the time of your

kidnapping? OK, so we were given a guide, and I never felt like there

was this kind of danger. You can't really be prepared for something

like this. I'd just like to live my life as a normal person, regardless

of whom my father was, even while he was the governor. We did not take

advantage of his position, and it was him, he was the governor, not

us. We do not travel in security details or kept out. You didn't

think you are under threat? I felt my father was under threat because

of the stance he took. He was killed. Of course. But it was not my

stance. It is so difficult to explain. You fight to be normal and

people expect you roam around with security details and things like

this, but... You were brought up in Pakistan. Do you think that was

naive on your part in hindsight? No, because nothing like this has ever

happened to me. Even now, I believe Pakistan, along with their lot of

other countries, is the frontline of this war. -- the frontline. Which

what? Even now I have been to do the naive to stay in this country is

with security. But I am Pakistani. I have to stay here, even if it is

dangerous for me. I will tell you, as far as security is concerned, my

father was killed by his security guard. He used to say who will guard

the guards? You can't live in fear. So you don't did that was a failure

by the state in its duty of care to you? Humans right watch said it was

a failing of the state in its inability to provide security even

those known to be at high risk -- Human Rights Watch. I think it is a

foul year as such, because these people do things with community --

Valley. Just take what happened in France, in Nice, how can you prepare

for this violent ideology and what will do? You be prepared for it. In

the same way I was not prepared I would be kidnapped for 4.5 years. I

do people in Orlando where prepared for what somebody did. It just takes

an individual who is radicalised and feeling angry at the moment, and I

don't think there is anything you could do to prevent it at the time.

I can give you Pakistan's example, and many countries are following

yet, a military operation was started against these forces because

of the operation. I felt I had to leave Pakistan, which led to the

circumstances of my release, in the same way it led to the circumstances

of the release of the former Promina stuff. -- Prime Minister. His son.

And also this young boy who was just kidnapped, I think because of this

operation, they could not take into some of the tribal areas, which is

why he was recovered in just a few months. He was very lucky. You said

they do at with impunity, but the killer of your father was hung.

There was just -- justice. That is not justice for me. I want my

father. I have lost him. You can't give me justice. But it is justice

for the people of Pakistan, that the Supreme Court hung a murderer

regardless of how people would want to paint him as some hero figure.

There are very few people who do that. A lot of people turned up for

his funeral. Out of 200 million, I think 200,000 people is not a lot.

My problem is I feel there is a silent majority that is not standing

up for certain people in Pakistan, and thinking this is a majority who

feel love for my father's murderer, which I do not agree with. A lot of

people celebrated your father's assassination. That is true. But

there were a lot of people who mourned it. I met with the people

who mourned it. I met with hundreds of thousands. I felt we had

international support even inside Pakistan. Like I said, I'll pass the

negative. We will come back to the implications of what has happened

for Pakistan and what it means for the country's identity --I look past

the negative. So here you are having been released from this ordeal after

nearly five years. What is it like? To be held hostage? You suffered

torture. You had to endure constant torture. You know, there are no

words to describe it. Somebody just comes one day and takes away

everything you love. Small things like just having tea in the morning

with the newspaper. Suddenly you are in a situation where you can't do

anything, you can't move. Your hands and legs are tired. The rust on the

chains is hurting your skin. It is very difficult. There are no words

to describe how you feel. You are not prepared for it. No one can be

prepared for it. But I think very early on, what I taught myself was

this is not the life I choose. This situation I am in, I will not accept

it -- told myself. This is not the person I am. I was not born to be

some person's... I don't want to be saying the word slave, the captive.

I was not a human being. Whether I pray, it did not matter to them.

They just looked at me as an animal, not even as... We speak of these

people and the things they do and say these people are animals. I hear

it on the news all the time. There is a problem in Orlando on this, and

people say they are animals. But these people thought I was an

animal. What kind of treatment to bake inflict on you as a result of

that? -- did they inflict on you? Being in chains and sleeping on the

floor with no bed, being fed in small quantities once a day, that

was very difficult. You find it strange, and luckily I was tortured

very early in my captivity. I just drew a line. When they raised their

hands, I drew a line. I said, I will make it out of this regardless of

what they do, unless they physically kill me. I will make it out of this

in one piece. That will be my victory. When you say they raised

their hand, you were beaten? Last insult was put in the Bruins on your

back -- salt was put in the wounds. These videos are as Hollywood style

as they can be. It is to get a shock reaction. They wanted this reaction

from my mother and from the government regardless of how much I

tried to explain that there are months were ridiculous and no

government would do with them. So the movement of Uzbekistan who were

holding you, they are affiliated to the so-called Islamic State? They

are affiliated with so-called Islamic State. When it was made, the

self-declared caliphate of the world, by the way, he said these are

the people I want. They shared that violent ideology. Even while they

were living and the Pakistani Taliban, they did not like them.

They could not relate to them. But as soon as Islamic State came along,

they instantly secretly gave them a pledge and said everything you say

is right. They held me for a long time. You said they wanted to get a

message out to your family, your mother. Work videos made of you?

Yes, they would make videos of pulling my now South. They said

those videos to my mother. -- pulling my now is out. They would

lash me every day. It started with 50 and went up to 100. Even that was

not a splashing. They would make it as extravagant as they could.

Sometimes they would bring to people to do it. Sometimes I were tiny

against the ceiling or make me write down on the floor -- lie down. They

wanted to humiliate me. Because of my humiliation should somehow my

mother pay a wee ditty was ransom. How much? At $259. -- up to $200

million. But they wanted 25 militants who nobody knew where they

were. They never spoke about the money. That was the initial demand.

But for 4.5 years, they just wanted these militants. Your family were

willing to pay? My family does not have that much money. What can I say

about the money? It never came down to negotiations about the money.

They would not move from wanting these brothers of theirs. I knew you

had fallen into the hands of the Afghan Taliban. When I came into

their hands, I was in jail. There were other militant groups from

Pakistan who refuse to fight the stable and just said we don't want

to participate in this war. They were jailed with us. I met the

Afghan Taliban leader and offered him money and said I would do what I

can. Please, I want to go home. These people, for 4.5 years, they

have taken my life away. I have a family. I can't give you 25

militants, I can't even give you one. The only one they asked for I

could do something about was the killer of my father, and my mother

said, I want my son. I will appeal to the government and say I have

forgiven him and drop the case. I don't care. I just want my son.

That didn't happen. They realised he was from a different school of

thought. They said he was an infidel. This is the mentality. Is

that how you were released in the end? No, I didn't. This Taliban told

me they don't believe in kidnapping and ransom. I found it funny. The

group that kidnapped me was under the umbrella for sometime. They had

forced these beliefs on him earlier. He said he wasn't interested and

didn't want the money. What I think is... It took me months. He was left

with a simple choice. If he stays, sooner or later they will be

released from this prison. They will kill him. We can kill him or we can

leave him. I think they just let me go. They just opened the door of the

jail and let me go. No militants were released and no money paid? No

money. So, here you are now enjoying your freedom and your family. You

made that last for a very long time. To go back to your family, you are

from this high-profile family, your father was the governor of Punjab

when he was killed and so on, he always said, look, I represent the

vision of Pakistan which of the founding father talked about at the

time of its creation when it was partitioned from India. One thing he

said, you are free to go to your temples, free to go to your mosque

or any place of worship in their state of Pakistan. That has nothing

to do with the business of the state. You agree with that vision?

That is the vision Pakistan was made on, so of course I agree with that

vision. That was a vision my father died fighting for. Of course. It is

a basic way for humanity. I don't care what race, colour and religion

Niua. I have to be acceptable. -- you are. That is the foundation of

Islam. We cannot force someone to become Muslim. God has said it

himself. He says, you are the messenger. I put faith in people's

hearts. That is God speaking to you. Your father had wanted a change in

the blasphemy laws under which a Christian woman was found guilty of

blasphemy. She had insulted the holy Koran. Accused of that. Allegedly,

she says she didn't, and she is still in prison, technically on

death Row. He wanted a change in the rules. Is that something you are

advocating? I will tell you something my father said before he

died, he said men and countries are defined by how they stand up for the

week. Not how they lean on the strong. At the time of my father's

death, he was what must seem like fighting a lonely battle against the

oppression of minorities in Pakistan. It is not just blasphemy

law, it is many things. It is the way our society is becoming. They

are persecuting people. My father said this law needs to be changed.

Any law that harms of the rights of citizens must be amended. Even some

in Pakistan who are happy about my father's murder have asked for

amendments in the blasphemy law. They said he deserved to die. That

makes no sense to me. If they are saying we need change then we need

change, so I can't do it, I am just an ordinary person. The people who

can, they must make sure that every national in Pakistan, their interest

is safeguarded, their religion, cultural beliefs, everything is

safeguarded. How far has Pakistan departed from that vision? As long

as the majority chooses to remain silent, everyday we are going

further and further away from that vision and we will continue to do

so. So you say the majority. The majority belong to a group amongst

whom you would count yourself as the liberal elite, well, not the elite,

but liberal. It isn't even that, I would say it is an understanding

people who, by the way, are scared, just like you and me, or any person

in any society, of guns and suicide bombing and extremism. And so they

ceased Ireland. And the only thing that happens is that few people who

think they can speak for the majority -- and so they stay silent.

There is a majority in Pakistan who stand by my father and her stand for

basic understanding. And I support them. -- and who stand for basic

understanding. Is it a majority, or is it a case of Pakistan being

pulled in different directions? The kind of Pakistan that gave you a

woman leader, Benazir Bhutto, and the kind of Pakistan that sort

Malala Yousafzai, a teenager, you know being shot because she wanted

an education -- saw. These are competing visions. It will be

difficult for me to explain, but it is the same Pakistan. There are

people in Pakistan that's AI was never kidnapped. Just today on

social media that said I was never tortured -- that say I was never

kidnapped. Imagine my mother who had to sit through these videos of her

son being mutilated on TV. Why did she watch them? She watched a couple

and then said she couldn't do it because of the message of a demand.

They would ask her if she saw the video, or if they should make

another one. How can she say, I won't watch it, so make another one?

It is the same Pakistan. Malala Yousafzai has support in Pakistan.

It is wonderful what she is doing. You are part of the liberal path. I

haven't come across someone who has had another narrative. Look at the

unfortunate case of the recent social media start in Pakistan,

mid-20s, she upset a lot of the social customs and so on, and her

brother has allegedly confessed. Her brother is a violent person. He is

not religious,... He said she brought fame on the family. He was a

drug addict who stole her money and ran off with her phone. Allegedly.

I.e. I am using her case of a young woman who says she wants to live as

she wants to live and this is my modern interpretation of what it

means to be a young woman. She said she was a feminist. There are many

on social media who said, yes, she shouldn't behave like that. It is

hurtful. There are many on social media who say that my father

deserved to die. Does anyone deserve to die for living the way they want?

There is some intolerance. Which side is winning? As long as people

stay silent, if people don't stand up for what they believe in, no one

else will. America and the UK won't put some point in the aid money to

please remove blasphemy laws or amend them or give women more

rights. Which side is women? The other side. As long as they pick up

arms and we remain quiet. As long as they dictate terms through violent

means, and we are quiet and scared, no one else will stand up. Look at

what is happening. 1000 killed in honour killing. Use either violence.

The Muslim lawyer of the woman is under threat. He is. You look at

your father, you look at Pakistan, and frankly he died in vain. I don't

think so. I think it takes one person to bring change. If there are

more, that is even better. People need to get serious about what is

happening in Pakistan. Politicians can't just come on social media and

condemned or not. They have Pakistan to take steps to ensure the safety

of their citizens and it is not happening. It is not just about the

blasphemy law. Like I said, it is about any law in Pakistan that

Victor Moses people. If there is no protection bill for women in

Pakistan. Thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thanks so

much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Tuesday did turn out to be the hottest day of the year so far,

with clear blue skies witnessed across most of the UK.

The highest temperature we had in the UK was 34 degrees