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Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Sarah Montague. Ilya Ponomarev was only

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one of 446 deputies who voted against the Russian parliament's

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vote on President Putin's annexation of Crimea. Within months he was

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accused of fraud and his bank accounts were frozen. He now lives

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in the United States and says "the best talent we need for a future

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Russian government" is there. So can Russians in exile really make a

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difference when the man they want to overthrow is so popular at home?

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THEME SONG PLAYS. Ilya Ponomarev, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for

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having me. Why did you vote against the annexation of Crimea? I think

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the answer for that question is obvious. Are you was against the

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bloodshed. Ukraine, the closest neighbour and Allied, is now our

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enemy. -- ally. That is an appropriate. Did you expect to be

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the only one of all the deputies voting that way? Unfortunately, yes.

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I spoke to all of them who could have voted another way and

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unfortunately none of them wanted to join me. There is obviously a

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history of people in Russia speaking out against the government having a

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difficult time. What did you expect to happen as a result of your boat?

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In general, many people speak against the government. This

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particular case was pretty much important for the president

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personally. That is why I expected consequences. I was just thinking

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they would be consequences inside the country and they would try to

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create a criminal case when I am inside the country and they would

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try to put me in jail. But they learnt their lesson and didn't want

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any more martyrs like they had previously with other people. What

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did happen? When did you first realise there was a problem? Umm,

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you know, I got messages straightaway. Straightaway I was

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called a national traitor, the fifth column, the agent of the CIA. But,

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that is a usual accusation that Russian opposition here is. In July,

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when I was on the business trip, they decided to close the borders

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amid. They said I could not cross the Russian border any more. You

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went to the US? Your accounts were frozen? Yeah. I was lucky I was in

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the United States and not in some other location. They actually froze

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my bank accounts and shut down my credit card. I was left penniless in

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another country. I had to start a real new life. Being in the United

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States, I had many friends to help me. Your family, your children, they

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are still in Russia, aren't they? No, actually. I brought them out. It

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was a lengthy and not a very easy process. My son is now in Germany.

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My daughter is now with her mother in Bulgaria. They are safe, at

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least. As far as you are concerned, your family, as you say, are now

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separated. You have been charged with embezzlement. They accuse you

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of having embezzled $400,000 from a foundation. What do you say to those

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charges and why do you not go back to defend yourself? They are

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charging every single opposition leader with some case. They invent

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something for every single person. It is just that the articles of the

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criminal court are slightly different. The most popular one is

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exactly this, embezzlement or stealing money from the state

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budget. This is a case for any people, including Sergei, who voted

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in favour of Georgia, and for those who voted for international

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terrorism. This is to show Russian people that Russian authorities may

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not be ideal. Many know they are involved in corruption. But the

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opposition is no better. That is what they are saying. Why don't you

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go back home and fight and defend yourself against those charges? You

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know, there are no courts right now to debate this in Russia. It is like

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you are playing a soccer game when there is just one set of goals and

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all the judges are on one side and you really cannot confront them is

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API tried to do that. -- them. I debated those charges in the civil

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case but no one listened. My situation is similar. Let them go to

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Interpol. Let them dry and international prosecution and let

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the international court see all 30 arguments and let them decide. --

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the. -- all the arguments. I am always checking in on Facebook where

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I am right now. So far, no Interpol. Only threats. It is just the courts.

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Your own party, A Just Russia, has also turned against you. You have

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been threatened with impeachment. You have been removed. Only a few

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other in your party of 60 plus voted with you. That is absolutely right.

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My party, when it was carrying white ribbons on their suits, later, they

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took them off, and started to show their loyalty to President Putin.

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That is a very sad case. Unfortunately, they are a member of

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a different national alliance. None of my partners actually questions

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this kind of behaviour. They totally flipped on their political position.

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I am standing on the position when we were running for the elections. I

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am standing exactly on the position I was promising to my constituents.

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Unfortunately, the party has changed all that. OK, so, for what you are

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saying, they are all wrong, everyone bringing a case against you, and you

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are right? No, I am not saying that. I can saying that people are weak.

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They always say that politics is the art of the impossible. There are

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real people inside my party that remain there. But they are trying to

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fight against different economic measures of the government,

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different social initiatives, and they justified by this that they

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still continue fighting against this new liberal measure that they are

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still in the Parliament and have to be loyal to be president because

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otherwise they will be impeached in the same fashion I was. OK, but in

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terms of what this meant that you outside the country, I know you were

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suddenly told by a friend that there was a billboard on a 10-storey

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building across from the Kremlin with your face on it and the words,

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national traitor. Now, that was some time after you left. And you said

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that you were fearful of staying in the same place for more than a

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couple of nights. Is that still the case? Do you still fear? Fear for

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what may happen to you? Look, I don't fear. What will happen will

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happen, I thought. I and doing what I need to. Some people in the

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opposition like to talk about this, how they have been prosecuted. I

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don't like to talk about that. Yes, in modern Russia, we have the same

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set of events that were happening in Germany in 1930. Unfortunately. And

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the country is going in exactly the same direction, with

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authoritarianism, the same tricks of state propaganda, and, that really

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makes me sorry for my country. What makes me sorry is our neighbours, it

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is dangerous for then. But what am I supposed to do? I am a Russian

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Patriot. I need to fight against them. You are seriously comparing

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Russia with German? I use an President Putin is Hitler? I

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wouldn't say this. But his public speeches used the same terminology.

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They have the same word. For President Putin, it would be too

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high of a comparison. He is more like one of Hitler's aides, like

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Herbels, because he does not have grand vision and objectives. He

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doesn't want to kill people either. -- Goebells. He just wants to be

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rich. Why do you say you are fearful for Russia's neighbours? My country,

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unfortunately, is a country with a great culture, a great tradition,

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the great system of education, and people at the end of today, they

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aren't this, they are threatening neighbours, they are trying to force

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them, instead of with soft power, they are using hard power. That

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makes me sorry for my people and it makes me really sorry for all of our

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neighbours. Like here, we are standing in Ukraine, and I am

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talking to Ukrainians. They are always friendly to ordinary

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Russians. They don't understand why we, like relatives right now, are

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fighting. It is not the Guild of Ukrainians, it is the guilt of

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Russia. -- macro. What about the Baltic states? Is Nato, the West,

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are they fearful Russia could scare up trouble in the Baltic states?

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Vladimir Putin cannot stop confrontation. He pulled out of

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confrontation. The Baltic states have the obvious target of Russia

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and Vladimir Putin going further. I think that, of course, the military

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of those states have to be reinforced. Bite you are talking

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about somebody who has approval ratings in Russia consistently of

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more than 80%. -- but. This is from independent Western polls as well as

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Russian ones. He is unbelievably popular and what the Russians want.

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I think that he is genuinely popular. Of course, I don't think it

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is above 80%. People can sometimes not be sincere in an authoritarian

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state. To expect to give those answers for psychological bolsters

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is kind of, you know, you have not lived in this kind of society. --

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pollsters. But of course he is popular. He is popular because

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people think we are protecting the minorities outside Russian borders.

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They really think that it is an American invasion, it is a Western

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invasion in the Ukraine, and we are the good guys. We are protecting

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then. Your society can feel the same invading Iraq. You also feel you are

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the good guys despite not always being right. But there are plenty of

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people in the West, plenty of British people, who would say that

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actually the problems of Ukraine started when the West moved into

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Russia's backyard. That is the words of a professor at Chicago

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university. He wrote a book about the Ukraine crisis being the fault

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of the West, saying that what the West did was provocative. You know,

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you can justify whatever you want to justified. We can go to the approach

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of two millenniums backwards, World War Two, but we are living in the

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21st century. Ukraine is an independent country. Also, I don't

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like the fact, and I feel sorry, that Ukrainians decided to go the

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wrong way 25 years ago. But it was their choice. We have to respect

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that choice. They voted for it in any legal public referendum. Russia

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should take it and recognise it as an independent state. There is no

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fear of influence. The good will of the Ukrainian and Russian people and

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the good will of the European Union and the European people. You are now

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in a situation where you have said the Baltic states need to be more

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heavily defended. You have called for the West to arm the Ukraine

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against your own country. I call to compensate the military

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between Ukraine and Russia. Because Ukraine was for a very long time

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relying on so-called Budapest Memorandum where western states

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including Great Britain by the way made guarantees to Ukraine on its

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territorial integrity. You didn't honour your own obligations

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according to that memorandum. And now Ukraine has to restore its

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military power. And if you are not honouring your obligations towards

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Ukraine at least compensate and help them create military and stop

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bloodshed at the end of the day. I have no doubt Ukraine will not

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invade Russia but Ukraine should be able to defend itself. OK but Mr

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Ilya Ponomarev you are trying to convince your fellow Russians that

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they need change and here you are calling for Russia's neighbours to

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be armed. You have also suggested that economic sanctions against

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Russians should be expanded to all government workers and their

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families. I mean these are ordinary Russians. Is it any wonder that they

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are calling you a national traitor? You see my position is that what you

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have done with sanctions by imposing economic sanctions on the whole of

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the nation was a mistake because you yourself gave to turn all the

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necessary tools to show that the west is the necessary enemy --

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Putin. That affects ordinary people and it doesn't affect the elites.

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What I am saying is that you should change this position. You should

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fight against the elites, those who are making those decisions, though

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are giving orders in Ukraine to kill ordinary Ukrainians. Those who are

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the foundation of this regime. But you're not doing this because you

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are benefiting from those guys to do their money laundering in the west

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by moving their capital in the western countries, including Great

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Britain once again. You have made it very clear that the west should

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effectively keep out of Russia because they just make a mess of it

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but your solution is that exiles, exiles like you can be a political

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force and from the outside, what, forced a revolution in Russia? Look,

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my personal strategy is not from the outside trying to create a

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revolution in Russia. Firstly I don't believe that revolutions are

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being created. Moreover that they can be created from the outside of

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the country, from the outside of the national borders. The guy who is

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creating the revolution in Russia, his name is Vladimir Putin right

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now. With what he is doing. What we are supposed to do is to showcase

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the alternative. And right now by being here in Ukraine I am trying to

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help Ukranian economy by showing to ordinary Russians that by creating a

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revolution you can actually prosper, you can actually benefit, that your

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nation can start to develop. And this is not happening right now in

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Ukraine because the country doesn't have a clear strategy of where to

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develop and I hope to help with this thing. Secondly, I want to help to

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organise Russian buyouts -- Ponomarev, because Russia has had a

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brain drain with more than a million living in the last two years and

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these are the most capital people, the most entrepreneurial, the most

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bright and capable scientific brains. And by getting them united,

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getting them to create his alternative for the country I think

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they can later returned to the country and create a new nation. It

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sounds like a government in exile. You said the best we need for this

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government is in the US. You are talking about what? It is not the

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government in exile. Government is Anna Lieuwe -- is an elitist

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approach. I am talking about common initiative. So how would it work? So

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you have the people you are marshalling from the bottom up. What

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changes, what changes in Russia as a result of that? It is a new vision

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for the country. Right now the only person who can say that he has the

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vision is Vladimir Putin. And when you are asking me about the surveys

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that show he is popular, he is popular because there is no

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alternative. And when you are selecting somebody from nobody, of

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course he will get the high numbers. As soon as people would see that

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there is an alternative, and this alternative is not about

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personalities, is not about anything but the way the country is supposed

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to go, then his numbers will start to decrease. This vision you are

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painting is from outside Russia. What is changing inside Russia?

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Right now think that our changing inside Russia, these are changing

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for worse, and that will continue for a while in the same direction --

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are. Of course, there are certain forces who are participating in the

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parliamentary elections which are coming this September, and I have my

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personal preference whom I am supporting during these elections,

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and I am trying to influence my constituents to come to the polling

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stations and vote, and vote consciously, but nothing will change

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through the elections. It is a process, it is not about a result.

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Anatoly Goulburn in the Russian Times said whenever the opposition

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has to tackle fundamental problems it disintegrates into little

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splinters. Is he right? The main problem of political opposition in

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Russia that has been associated with 1990s and nothing is worse for

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Russian person to go back in 1990s, and that's one of the main problems

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of the Liberal opposition, because Sony people were in the government

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at that time. And when people are choosing between then and Vladimir

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Putin they always choose Vladimir Putin because it was a time of

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relative prosperity for the common Russians -- so many people. So to go

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further the opposition has to present a vision. OK but since 2012

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you said I think this regime will not survive another two years, it

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might not even survive a year. UKIP predicting that President Putin will

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be out of power in two or three years and yet you say it is not

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going to happen via elections. How is it going to happen? I think it

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can happen actually every given day. Because the elites in Russia right

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now, they are totally unhappy with what's going on. And if they in

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their anteroom are silently pressuring President Putin to do

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some changes. They are not happy with the economy, they are not happy

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with relations with the west, but what Vladimir Putin is saying is

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hush, sit tight, sanctions will be lifted, we will be victorious, you

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know, nothing would change, we will get back to the business as usual.

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And right now they are sitting and waiting. If they would see that

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there is no business as usual things would start to change. If they would

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see that Weston community is backing up and is not doing what it was

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doing, doing what it was saying in public, then of course things will

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continue like this for another six or seven years at least -- western.

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But you have said elites cannot be changed gradually as newcomers will

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be corrupted either bad practices and approaches of the past. The

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future needs to be built from scratch. And it sounds like

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somebody... I know you admire Lenin. It sounds like something he would

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say. Again, I think that the changes, they will come in two

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stages. All changes in Russia, they started from the top. There was no

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time in Russian history when the initial change was not initiated

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from the top. And I think that the situation is moving in the

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direction, the situation will start to change from the top. But then the

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common people should pick it up and it should be a mass protest. It

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shouldn't be an elitist approach. And this is something that I am

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trying to work on right now. OK, so use a change will come because

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someone near, someone at the top near President Putin, will make a

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move against him? It is not necessarily that it will be a move

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against him. You know, it can be relatively friendly move. Let's

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start to change something. Let's play another game like it was played

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between Vladimir Putin and. Let's change another face, but it's no

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longer 2008, and as soon as they start any kind of serious changes I

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think the situation will actually below. The situation would blow

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because what, the people would insist on change? -- blow. Yes,

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because people no longer want to wait. They want those changes. And

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right now they see a person in charge, they see the only person who

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is powerful and who is seen as more powerful than western leaders. As

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soon as they would see that this person is not so powerful any longer

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than the changes would start. Ilya Ponomarev, thank you for coming on

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HARDtalk. Thank you very much. After a couple of really hot days it

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all went bang somewhat on Wednesday. Certainly for some there was a whole

:24:07.:24:09.

host of thunderstorms across Scotland, clearing out

:24:10.:24:12.

into the North Sea now, a rash of them across eastern

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England disappearing

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