Al Sharpton, civil rights activist HARDtalk


Al Sharpton, civil rights activist

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to Hardtalk.

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I'm Stephen Sackur.

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One of the bleaker themes of Barack Obama's presidency has

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been the crisis in relations between black America

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and the criminal justice system.

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We've seen unarmed black men shot dead by the police and officers

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gunned down in what appeared to be acts of vengeance.

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A new movement, Black Lives Matter, has given voice to

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anger on the streets.

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Well my guest today is Al Sharpton, the veteran often controversial

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civil rights campaigner.

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Who speaks most effectively for black America today?

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Al Sharpton in New York City, welcome to Hardtalk.

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Thank you.

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Mr Sharpton, you've been working on the cases of individuals

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and their families who have been shot, gunned down by the police,

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for an awful long time.

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I remember you were working with the family of the teenager

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Trayvon Martin back in 2012.

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Since then, matters seem to have gotten worse, not better.

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Why is that?

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I think matters have been recorded more.

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I don't think that they are any worse or better.

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I think that because of social media that we are seeing a lot more,

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what many others have been saying all along,

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you must remember the case of Trayvon Martin was just a couple

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of years ago, which spurred some of the young groups that started,

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then some of them died out, then when Eric Garner happened

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and Ferguson happened with Michael Brown, some new young

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groups went into being and went forward, but my group the NAACP

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and others have been doing this for a long time and were the groups

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that these families called in, so we didn't just work on these

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campaigns, we came in because the families wanted

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to sustain a fight that they knew is a fight bigger than one case.

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There is a systemic problem with policing and the black

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community and it has to be handled with a sustained movement.

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Right, I mean the interesting movement is, yes, you are right,

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the families in many of these cases called you in and other well-known

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figures in the civil rights movement, but out on the streets

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there seemed to be a very different tone, a radicalism,

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a desire for immediate action, which you seem to be out

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of tune with.

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Well, that's a media absurdity.

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The first marches around Trayvon Martin and around

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Eric Garner were our marches.

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We were the ones leading them in the streets.

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What you're trying to confuse is those that may come

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into a movement already started and have a different position,

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they are speaking to a new mood as opposed to some other mood.

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No, they are speaking to different tactics,

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as we on the street are speaking to our tactics, and that's no

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different than in the 1960s.

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Let me finish.

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Let's talk tactics.

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Let me finish.

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There's no difference between Dr King when he was leading

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a movement in the '60s and they wanted to riot,

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he opposed that at the same time.

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There was a Mandela and ANC and PAC, so a lot of times the media tries

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to categorise things wrongly.

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Right, I'll come back to that but before I do pick a way in how

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you see Black Lives Matter and other movements which have developed a lot

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of strength in recent times.

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Why do you think under a black president, a man who served two

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terms, almost eight years in office, that far from resolving some

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of these issues or at least making them look as though they're

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on the way to resolution, as we both agreed they

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are as bad as ever?

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Because I think he inherited a real institutional problem,

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more than anyone preceding him tried to deal with those problems.

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This is the first president that started the commutation of sentences

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for those that were in prison for nonviolent drug crimes,

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that was started and became law way before he came in,

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and he appointed the first black Attorney General and the second one,

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when we never had a black Attorney General in the history

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of the country, that began saying to their prosecutors stop asking

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for these long sentences on nonviolent criminals.

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He was the first president that convened having a task force

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on policing, where he put the civil rights groups like my national group

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and the NAACP on and some of the activists in Black Lives Matter,

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so I think he has had to try and turn around

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some historic negligence.

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What do you say to some of the black intellectuals,

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commentators, guys like Michael Eric Dyson,

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who writes a lot in the New Republic and elsewhere, who have said,

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I grew disillusioned with Obama's timid responses to this racial

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crisis, with how willing he was to disclaim his racial

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affiliation, his slow actions on police problems,

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his reluctance to confront the racial crisis, it has opened up

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a leadership vacuum in the black community.

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Do you simply not buy that?

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I disagree.

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I have a lot of respect for Dr Dyson and he's written respectfully

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of my work.

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I just disagree.

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I think that as one who has dealt with the last two or three

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presidents, I've seen him operate more immediately, more on hands

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and more effectively than any of the last two or three presidents,

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including the Democrats.

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But when he says...

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Leading the fight, how can he lead the fight to himself?

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The fight must be brought to him, which many of us are doing.

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Sometimes we misconstrue him being president with him

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being the leader of black America.

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That's the nub of it, isn't it, because he has said many a time

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after these incidents we've seen, from Ferguson, to Florida,

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to wherever they happen, obviously in Baton Rouge

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and elsewhere, he says time and again, I am not the president

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of black America, but many black people and particularly angry young

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disaffected black people, are saying to themselves,

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what's the point of this historic moment, electing a black president,

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if he won't act in the interests of black America?

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Well, but what is the point if he is operating in the interest

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and is putting historic numbers of people out of jail

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that was incarcerated, is saying let's move forward

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on these policing issues, his Justice Department just found

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in Ferguson and Baltimore for the first time coming down

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on those cities saying there is a systemic police race problem.

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You can always run out on the streets of England and say,

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oh they're not doing anything, but I think to a lot of people that

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are involved in these matters, involved in the cases,

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and the victims themselves, have said no, this president clearly

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is not leading the fight, but has responded better than any

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president we've seen.

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Is it easy to get extreme voices?

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Of course it is.

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I remember I came to London years ago and led marches

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and they interviewed one guy in the back of the line saying

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we ought to burn the town down.

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There was no conflict in leadership.

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It was a choice by the media to decide they wanted to raise

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different extreme voices.

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They have the right to be heard but don't act

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like there's a conflict.

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There a disagreement in tactics.

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Some say Mr Sharpton, some in the black community say

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Al Sharpton used to be the firebrand, he used to be the guy

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that would tell it like it was, but in to Obama in particular

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he spent far too much time cosying up to the guy.

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I believe you've spent what, 60 or so visits to the White House

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talking to Obama, talking to his advisers, right

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inside the system rather than piling in on the side of those

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who desperately want change?

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Well, I think you need to watch your interview

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because you just said the families called me,

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and asked me to come in.

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So obviously they don't see me as one that would not change that.

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You put people who want to get some spotlight in like they are speaking

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for the movement and the victims.

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The victims, as you said, call us in.

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These guys that want to get space criticising and they not only did it

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to me, they've done it to those far greater before me,

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are speaking for who?

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First of all...

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But putting some political analysis on this...

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Please let me finish.

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First of all who are they speaking on behalf to and on what end?

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I've met with the last three or four presidents and every major civil

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rights leader meets with presidents and people to get things done.

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This whole ghettoisation of black leadership,

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to say we're not smart enough to lead in the streets and to go

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into suites to negotiate what we are leading in the streets

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about, is absolutely insulting.

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Of course the people leading the marches and leading

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in the streets like me want to be at the table to say

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that the legislation must be right on policing, that we must

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deal with the problem.

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What the intellectual that you're quoting wants is they want us to be

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assigned to the streets so they can go in and negotiate,

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because they're never coming to the streets.

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They want to talk for us, like we're not intelligent enough

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to speak for ourselves.

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It's not for me to second-guess anybody's motives, it's for me to me

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to try to figure out what it means politically.

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There's a guy called Jamal Watson, who I believe is writing a book

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about you, I think, he certainly spent a lot of time

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studying your career, and he says, I think Al Sharpton is right now

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helping to legitimise Obama and protect him against critics

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who claim that he's not black enough.

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I know you disagree with that, but can you see where that sort

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of opinion is coming from in today's America,

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given what is happening?

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Well first of all I supported President Obama, both when he ran

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the first time and his re-election, so the president, there is no

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secret about that.

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And I disagreed with those that felt his role should be different.

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But that doesn't mean that has anything to do with how we deal

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with and challenge him, both me and the Black Lives Matter

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representatives that are meeting with him, and the NAACP and others.

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You can't have it both ways.

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You can't say that if Sharpton or the NAACP meets with Obama

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they are giving support to the system but if they bring

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in young activists in the same meeting from Black Lives Matter,

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they're not being swallowed up.

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I mean, come on, you can't have it both ways.

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Either we ought to be meeting with the president or we ought not

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be meeting with the president.

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All of us ought to be meeting with the president.

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I think a lot of this is a lot of guys just trying to get

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some face time.

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Well, you've had plenty of face time of your own,

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Mr Sharpton!

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Let's get away from this idea of...

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Again, I didn't break into the studio, you invited me

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in and we're having face time now.

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That's a very fair point, we wanted you on this show and I'm

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delighted we've got you on the show but let's get to a different point.

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We've talked about the intellectual discussion within the black

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community, but let's talk about the intergenerational discussion.

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Here's a really interesting outright simple idea that was put forward

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by a musician called Tef Poe, who was very involved

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in the protests in Ferguson, Missouri, after the killing

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of Michael Brown, and he just said this.

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He said at one point when people interviewed him on the streets

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at a demo, he said, you know what, this ain't your grandparents' civil

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rights movement and there was a thought behind that

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that there is some generational shift going on.

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Would you accept that?

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You've been around for a long time.

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Well, I mean I talk to a lot of them.

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In fact I have young people in my organisation,

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I have the youth director nationally who is 18 years old.

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Again, I think that you'd have to distinguish when they say that,

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what part of the grandparents' civil rights movement

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they're talking about?

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You had the black power movement who believed in self defence,

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you had the Black Panthers movement that believed in self defence,

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you have Martin Luther King that believed in nonviolence,

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you had the NAACP that fought in legal rights so again we're not

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talking about a monolith and I think a lot of the media doesn't drill

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down and say exactly what you talk about.

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Our grandparents' movement, in my case it would be my parents,

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I'm old enough to be the rapper you talk about's father,

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so he might be talking about my fathers, their generation

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had as many differences as this generation does now,

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all the younger generation.

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Like I said, my 18-year-old youth director Mary Pat Hector,

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who runs the youth movement out of the national network,

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she disagrees with a lot of the rappers.

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So who speaks for young black America?

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Who speaks for older black America?

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Who speaks for elderly black America?

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The same that always did.

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It's been different voices that speak at the same time,

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as they do in Europe, as they do around the world.

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As they did in the movement in South Africa.

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There is nothing new about that.

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Some in the media try to say we're going to choose this

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or that and it's really funny, it's comical.

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I just wonder whether you fear that some of the voices,

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let's call them the more radical street protests,

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direct action voices, do you worry that they are fostering

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an atmosphere that could produce a lot more violence?

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I'm against violence.

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I certainly have said that all my life.

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I think that in many cases we have seen that down through the years

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and I have always denounced it no matter what is the generation.

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When I was called into Ferguson by the family and we started

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the first marches, it wasn't just young folks that were out

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there angry, there were people my age and older that were angry.

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I think we cannot make violence just generational and I think we can't

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condone it under any measure.

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I think there are a lot of young people out there saying we're not

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going to have violence.

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When you look at the movement on college campuses last year

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for example, the University of Missouri and others,

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that fought against the racial symbolism of having slave masters'

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names and other things, they were totally non-violent

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and these young people were younger than the activists that you're

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talking about in Ferguson.

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On college campuses.

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They were not part of that movement and they spread all over the country

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on college campuses, so it's not generational, it's tactical.

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Let's talk politics.

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If we're going to talk tactics it's important to talk

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about national politics.

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Right now you're obviously in campaign season for

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the November presidential election.

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The Black Lives Matter movement which we've talked about quite a bit

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in this interview has made it very plain it is not interested

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in playing a role in mainstream politics.

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That is not what they do and they're not going to endorse either Clinton

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or Trump before November.

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Do you think that's wise, or not?

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Well first of all you have to talk about what part of that movement,

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because that movement has been as they say organic and leaderless

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because one of the prominent voices in that movement ran for mayor

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of Baltimore - which is exactly engaged in electoral politics.

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So let's not act like it's one organisation with one leadership

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thrust like other models that they don't agree with,

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like the NAACP.

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I was speaking of Alicia Garza, one of the founders of the movement

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and she said the endorsement goes to the protest movement itself

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that we have built.

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Other voices that have identified that movement are running

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for office, one just ran for the mayor of Baltimore.

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Cut to the chase.

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Is it wise to stay out of this and say you know what,

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we don't believe in any of these politicians and we're not

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going to endorse either Trump or Clinton?

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Well I think that what you'd have to question is then how do

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we get our goals in terms of new legislation, which all others

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agree that we need to deal with independent prosecutors

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and deal with demilitarisation of police and other matters that

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all others agree on, how do we do that without putting

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people in office, that the only way you're going to get new legislation

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is to have new legislators.

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But at the same time I don't think you dismiss Alicia Garza's

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frustration or others' frustration saying that I've not seen

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these people deliver, and I think that those of us that do

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believe in using the political process have to raise to these

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people that you are causing this frustration, but at the same time

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one of the prominent things that happened in Mrs Hillary Clinton's

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campaign is she was able to get the victims' mothers

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to come out and campaign, the mother of Eric Garner,

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the mother of Michael Brown, the mother of Trayvon Martin.

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They are the ones that went out and campaigned for her, not even me,

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and said vote for Hillary Clinton because they feel the way to get

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justice for their family, their blood, was doing this.

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So I think there's respectful disagreement.

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Are you endorsing Clinton or not?

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I've not made any endorsement.

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I'm not to Miss Garza's point of saying don't vote,

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I will certainly probably make an endorsement before the election,

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but at this point I'm concentrating more on trying to reverse

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the new attempts to suppress the vote with voting laws,

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and I didn't want to do that as a surrogate for a campaign.

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I just wondered if you haven't endorsed anyone because looking

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at your record, you've got a record of actually being pretty close

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to Donald Trump as well as Hillary Clinton.

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You've certainly met Clinton many times and she's expressed support

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for your movement, but Donald Trump tweeted a while ago a picture

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of you and him saying, Al Sharpton loves Trump

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because he knows I get him, that others don't, and also you've

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had plenty of meetings with Trump.

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You said you don't dislike the guy even though you don't

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like many of his positions?

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I have met with Donald Trump down through the years when Donald Trump

0:19:260:19:30

was a Democrat and played like he was a liberal

0:19:300:19:32

and was booking James Brown, who was like a father to me,

0:19:320:19:35

in his showrooms, but I have absolutely denounced Donald Trump's

0:19:350:19:38

racist comments and I've met 100 times more with Hillary Clinton,

0:19:380:19:40

who I supported for US Senator, I supported her husband

0:19:400:19:43

and her when she was in the White House and Hillary Clinton

0:19:430:19:46

just spoke at the convention in April, so there's no sane person

0:19:460:19:49

that thinks that Donald Trump and I are close friends.

0:19:490:19:51

Donald Trump and I knew each other down through the years.

0:19:510:19:54

He's a big New York businessman who was a Democrat, who used

0:19:540:19:58

to do things.

0:19:580:20:03

I've also marched on Donald Trump, because Donald Trump was the main

0:20:030:20:08

adversary we dealt with in the Central Park five case and I led

0:20:080:20:11

the marches on his office about that.

0:20:110:20:16

I'm a little bit confused.

0:20:160:20:22

Having used the word racist about Donald Trump's positions,

0:20:220:20:25

you're still saying to me you're not right now endorsing a candidate.

0:20:250:20:28

How can you believe one of the two candidates is racist and yet

0:20:280:20:31

not endorse the other?

0:20:310:20:35

You weren't listening.

0:20:350:20:36

I just say that I choose not to have a partisan view to confuse

0:20:360:20:39

people on why I'm voting against voter suppression and that

0:20:390:20:42

I will be probably endorsing, but I want to first finish what I'm

0:20:420:20:45

doing around voter suppression, I said that to you

0:20:450:20:47

a few minutes ago.

0:20:470:20:51

So maybe because I take my role as a civil rights activist more

0:20:510:20:54

important than a party person is why I would say

0:20:540:20:56

I would do my endorsement after we deal with these legal

0:20:560:20:59

rights around voter suppression.

0:20:590:21:07

We don't know how close the race is going to be.

0:21:070:21:10

Some polls suggest right now it's not going to be that close,

0:21:100:21:13

but received wisdom suggests the polls can tighten very quickly.

0:21:130:21:16

In key states like Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania,

0:21:160:21:17

the black vote could well be hugely important.

0:21:170:21:19

You're talking about voter registration and turning

0:21:190:21:21

out the vote.

0:21:210:21:27

Do you believe that in this election America's black communities

0:21:270:21:29

are going to vote in greater numbers than usual?

0:21:290:21:32

The question is can they vote, which is why we're concentrating

0:21:320:21:35

on voter suppression, that they've changed voting

0:21:350:21:36

regulations in 17 states, three of which have now been turned

0:21:360:21:39

around by the court, but you have 14 states that

0:21:390:21:41

have new laws.

0:21:420:21:47

Many of them are the states you are referring to,

0:21:470:21:49

so the question before you get to will there be a big turnout

0:21:490:21:53

is if there is a big turnout will they be allowed to vote

0:21:530:21:56

if they don't have the new regulated ID, which is why I opt to deal

0:21:560:21:59

with that before I opt to deal with telling people to come out

0:21:590:22:06

and vote for a candidate, that they may not be qualified

0:22:060:22:09

to vote at all if we don't turn a lot of this around.

0:22:090:22:12

You know what, when we talk about this, you talk about voter

0:22:120:22:15

suppression which you see as clearly discriminatory,

0:22:150:22:17

we talk about the criminal justice and law enforcement systems,

0:22:170:22:20

which you see as clearly discriminatory.

0:22:200:22:21

Do you believe today Mr Sharpton, after what, pretty much five decades

0:22:210:22:24

in the civil rights business, that America is any less racist

0:22:240:22:27

today than it was when you set out?

0:22:270:22:32

I don't believe that America is in a post-racial era.

0:22:320:22:40

I think we've seen improvement.

0:22:400:22:42

When I started as a kid, when I was 12 years

0:22:420:22:45

old in the aftermath of Dr King's organisation,

0:22:450:22:53

we were in the back of the bus literally in parts of the South,

0:22:530:22:58

though I'm from the North, literally within three or four years

0:22:580:23:00

had the right of vote, clearly we've made some progress,

0:23:000:23:03

but I don't think we've gone anywhere near a fair and equal

0:23:030:23:06

society and I don't think racist attitudes have changed.

0:23:060:23:08

But I'm not looking for people to love me.

0:23:080:23:11

I'm looking for people not to be able to in any way abuse me

0:23:110:23:14

without equal protection under the law and in any way

0:23:140:23:16

limit my opportunities.

0:23:160:23:19

I think that that we still have a challenge, but to say

0:23:190:23:22

we haven't made progress, I think is not true.

0:23:220:23:28

To say we made a lot of progress and we are there now

0:23:280:23:31

in a post-racial generation, I think is absurd.

0:23:310:23:38

And I remember when I saw President Obama are elected,

0:23:380:23:41

who I supported, people said we're not going to need the Al Sharptons

0:23:410:23:44

anymore and the civil rights campaigners, and it seems

0:23:440:23:46

like they had to take that back and that's why families still call

0:23:460:23:49

us, because we still haven't solved a lot of the problems,

0:23:490:23:52

but the fact that we have dealt with some of them is what gives me

0:23:520:23:56

the faith and the strength to keep going fighting.

0:23:560:24:01

We have to end there.

0:24:010:24:02

Al Sharpton, thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.

0:24:020:24:05

Thank you.

0:24:050:24:09

Hello there.

0:24:330:24:34

Plenty to smile about with the weather story over

0:24:340:24:36

the next few days.

0:24:360:24:38

I'm sure farmers will be happy, this Weather Watcher's picture

0:24:380:24:40

showing gathering in the harvest on Sunday.

0:24:400:24:43

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